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Author Topic: Dominion: Menagerie  (Read 15295 times)

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Saul Goodman

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2020, 11:16:32 pm »
0

Here's hoping that every animal card has the Rats/Magpie mechanic, I want a kingdom of ten cards that gain copies of themselves...
Rabbit: "When you play this card, if it is the second Rabbit played this turn, gain the rest of the Rabbit pile"

I cackled.
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2020, 01:09:04 am »
0

Given that the description says "Horses that save a draw for later", I wonder if the way they'll work is that you actually draw one less card when you receive the Horse.  So, when you initially receive the Horse token it's like the -card token in Adventures, but then later when you use them, you get +1 card per token used (maybe you use them anytime you'd draw to get +1 card?  So, you couldn't simply use it before your buy phase to get another treasure, but you could use it before playing, say, a village to instead get +2 cards +2 actions, or at clean-up to get 6 cards in your next hand).  So you're saving the draw you would've gotten for later

This is what I thought based on "save a draw," too. However, I wouldn't think you'd have to use a Horse token only when you are drawing cards but rather just any time in your action phase (like how you spend a villager).
Based on this being more complicated, I think Horses are just going to be +1 Card (possibly costing an action to use)
I am extremely sure that this is not going to be the case. That would make a Horse similar to a one-shot Moat.

Quote
I'm guessing Horses may have an added cost because non-terminal card draw has proven to be really good, and deferring your card draw until you have spare actions sounds strong and hard to balance.
Why non-terminal? If a card says +2 Horses, it is terminal. Sure, you can use the bonus at any time but that doesn't magically make it non-terminal. Just because Haunted Woods is a triple Lab next turn doesn't mean that it is non-terminal, it is dead when you play it.
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Titandrake

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2020, 02:12:09 am »
0

It's card draw where you choose how much of it you want to use. Stockpiling extra draw you don't need, only drawing up to the end of your shuffle, etc. all sounds really strong. Non-terminal isn't the most precise word for it, but I would guess that in practice you usually use Horses when you have a free action available, or you're confident you won't draw an action dead.

Horses probably don't have an additional cost, but I do expect that cards with Horses will look overcosted until you play with them.
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Minotaur

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2020, 02:17:47 am »
+2

Chief Subordinate Horse Officer, 1st Class
Action-Duration
Cost: <12>

At the start of each turn for the rest of the game: +1 Horse.
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Minotaur

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2020, 02:18:31 am »
+1

...or Mr. Ed for short
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2020, 08:53:19 pm »
+4

The game comes to a stand still when you play Possum.
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2020, 12:47:31 am »
0

Stockpiling extra draw you don't need, only drawing up to the end of your shuffle, etc. all sounds really strong.
I agree and like to add that this it also facilitates megaturns.
On the other hand, relative to Villagers, the hypothetical +1 Buy token and Coffers, Horses are likely fairly weak. Normally you want to draw as much as possible, e.g. while you are still building to cycle.
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Saul Goodman

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2020, 11:13:38 am »
+1

The game comes to a stand still when you play Possum.

Possum
Action/Reaction/Duration
Cost 3 Coin

+2 Cards
Gain a Possum
This card stays in play until your next turn .  While in play, you are unaffected by attacks.
____________
When another player plays an attack card, you may reveal this and send it to your exile mat.  If you do, you may send that players' attack card to their exile mat and that player gains The Skewer. 

When this is Trashed by another player, +1 coffer.

Set-up: This card may only be used in Kingdoms with three or more Attack Cards.

The Skewer (Artifact)

Once at the beginning of your turn while you have this, you may trash another player's Possum from play or from their Exile Mat.  If you do, +1 Action and return an attack card from your Exile Mat to your hand.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 11:24:34 am by Saul Goodman »
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markusin

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2020, 07:17:39 pm »
+1

I argued for the set to be called Bestiary, but apparently that was too close to Bestiality for some peoples' tastes

I personally think they made the right call on that one.

Really?  If you see the word "Bestiary" and think of "Bestiality", you've got a pretty sick mind.

If your player base might complain about Witch being too occult why take chances. It's more about misreading it from far. Of course, I wouldn't expect any kids to make such a connection.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 07:19:05 pm by markusin »
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crj

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2020, 07:23:53 pm »
+2

On the other hand, relative to Villagers, the hypothetical +1 Buy token and Coffers, Horses are likely fairly weak. Normally you want to draw as much as possible, e.g. while you are still building to cycle.
It feels to me that a draw you can save for later is likely to be better than a coin you can save for later. If it isn't, the average card in your deck is less good than a Copper, and you're Doing It Wrong. (-8

And I bet people would be delighted to pay $4 for a Horsey Village that was +1 Horse, +2 Actions. For all I know that might even turn out to be underpriced.
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mxdata

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2020, 07:55:39 pm »
+1

On the other hand, relative to Villagers, the hypothetical +1 Buy token and Coffers, Horses are likely fairly weak. Normally you want to draw as much as possible, e.g. while you are still building to cycle.
It feels to me that a draw you can save for later is likely to be better than a coin you can save for later. If it isn't, the average card in your deck is less good than a Copper, and you're Doing It Wrong. (-8

And I bet people would be delighted to pay $4 for a Horsey Village that was +1 Horse, +2 Actions. For all I know that might even turn out to be underpriced.

Yeah, if I already have $8 in hand, I would be delighted to have the chance to save the draws for another hand where I might only have $7.  So a horse village or horse lab would be really handy

Maybe a Horse Race that's similar to Chariot Race from Empire, except instead of gaining a victory token you gain a Horse token?
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trivialknot

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2020, 09:32:12 pm »
0

The interesting thing is that with coffers, you have vanilla cards.  You have baker, candlestick maker, and to a lesser extent plaza and villain.  But there arenít really vanilla villager cards.  No cantrip that gives you villagers, just patron and maybe acting troupe.  I think vanilla villager cards just donít work as well as cards like lackeys that put a limit on how many you can gain. 

The question is if horses are more like coffers or more like villagers.  I suspect theyíre more like coffers, and vanilla horse cards would work just fine.  Consider an action that just says +1 action, +1 Horse.  Seems like a solid card idea to me.
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dz

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2020, 10:05:22 pm »
+1

The interesting thing is that with coffers, you have vanilla cards.  You have baker, candlestick maker, and to a lesser extent plaza and villain.  But there arenít really vanilla villager cards.  No cantrip that gives you villagers, just patron and maybe acting troupe.  I think vanilla villager cards just donít work as well as cards like lackeys that put a limit on how many you can gain. 

The question is if horses are more like coffers or more like villagers.  I suspect theyíre more like coffers, and vanilla horse cards would work just fine.  Consider an action that just says +1 action, +1 Horse.  Seems like a solid card idea to me.

It's more of a battle between simple things, and exciting things. The lack of vanilla villagers is mostly because of how unexciting and low-hanging fruit they are compared to e.g. Recruiter.

Quote from: Renaissance outtakes
There was a village that was, cantrip, +1 Villager; man it's fine, you can argue about, does it need to cost $5, but it's nice. The village that's always there when you need it. But really, the experience it gives is the villager experience, and other cards are giving us that experience. Another village just came with +2 Villagers; we already have that experience too.
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mxdata

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2020, 02:05:11 am »
0

If Horses are indeed tokens, I wonder if there'll be any cards with a "When you gain this, +1 Horse" on it, or maybe even a "when you trash this"

Maybe something like a Horse version of Plaza, "You may discard a card for +1 Horse"?

A kind of "delayed Apprentice"?  "Trash a card from your hand, +1 Horse per coin it costs"?
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2020, 03:54:12 am »
+6

It's more of a battle between simple things, and exciting things. The lack of vanilla villagers is mostly because of how unexciting and low-hanging fruit they are compared to e.g. Recruiter.

Quote from: Renaissance outtakes
There was a village that was, cantrip, +1 Villager; man it's fine, you can argue about, does it need to cost $5, but it's nice. The village that's always there when you need it. But really, the experience it gives is the villager experience, and other cards are giving us that experience. Another village just came with +2 Villagers; we already have that experience too.
I'm not against low-hanging fruit, and love to do vanilla stuff when I can. Acting Troupe and Lackeys are both exceptionally simple +villagers cards; sure they're not pure +'s but man, that's not the only way to be super simple.

Cantrip villager was the first villager card in the file. Soon there were a bunch though. It didn't provide an experience we weren't getting other ways, and eventually it was crowded out. It was fine, but every card is trying to add something, and what it added was just "villagers." That isn't always how it goes. Inventor is just a Bridge-Workshop, but the experience seemed different enough and there it is in the set.

Another thing is, if you have a sleek pretty vanilla card, wait this could be a good place to slap that when-gain or whatever you wanted to fit in the set somehow. Patron could have just been the top, but I had this ability to do and that was a good place to do it. So this also cuts into vanilla cards. And hey Baker has one of those, it's not vanilla at all, certainly not more vanilla than Lackeys and Acting Troupe.
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2020, 07:04:51 am »
+2

On the other hand, relative to Villagers, the hypothetical +1 Buy token and Coffers, Horses are likely fairly weak. Normally you want to draw as much as possible, e.g. while you are still building to cycle.
It feels to me that a draw you can save for later is likely to be better than a coin you can save for later. If it isn't, the average card in your deck is less good than a Copper, and you're Doing It Wrong. (-8

And I bet people would be delighted to pay $4 for a Horsey Village that was +1 Horse, +2 Actions. For all I know that might even turn out to be underpriced.
Sure, Lab is better than Peddler, a cantrip that yields a Horse is better than Baker. That's elementary.

My point was that the relative benefit of Horses to Cards is smaller than that of Coffers to Coins which is again smaller than that of Villagers to Actions (which is again likely similar to the relative benefit of Buy tokens to Buys).
Cards are simply the 'least necessary to save' vanilla thingy.
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Minotaur

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2020, 03:46:40 pm »
+2

Knowing the next card of your deck could make horses worth more.  Or rather, make the ones you actually use effectively be worth more.  This is pretty hard to do on command on most boards, though...

Mounted Scouts
Project
Cost: <8>

Any time you could play an Action, you may look at the top X cards of your deck, where X is how many horses you have.
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2020, 03:23:57 pm »
+2

"Your menagerie got off to a poor start, with just a goat, two rats, and the advisor who suggested starting a menagerie."

I took this to be just a reference to earlier sets, not a clue about this one. After all, there can't be a Rats or Goat card in this one.

hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2020, 03:33:58 pm »
+3

"Your menagerie got off to a poor start, with just a goat, two rats, and the advisor who suggested starting a menagerie."

I took this to be just a reference to earlier sets, not a clue about this one. After all, there can't be a Rats or Goat card in this one.

Or Advisor, for that matter.
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2020, 03:52:16 pm »
+2

Or Menagerie, for that matter.

Titandrake

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2020, 04:31:32 pm »
+2

"Your menagerie got off to a poor start, with just a goat, two rats, and the advisor who suggested starting a menagerie."

I took this to be just a reference to earlier sets, not a clue about this one. After all, there can't be a Rats or Goat card in this one.

I mean, if your hand starts with 2 Rats in it, your Menagerie isn't going to activate. Meanwhile your Advisor is going to increase the odds you have duplicate cards, if your opponent is keeping track of what cards they gave you from previous Advisors. Sounds like a poor start to me.
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markusin

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2020, 10:18:26 am »
+9

"Your menagerie got off to a poor start, with just a goat, two rats, and the advisor who suggested starting a menagerie."

I took this to be just a reference to earlier sets, not a clue about this one. After all, there can't be a Rats or Goat card in this one.

I mean, if your hand starts with 2 Rats in it, your Menagerie isn't going to activate. Meanwhile your Advisor is going to increase the odds you have duplicate cards, if your opponent is keeping track of what cards they gave you from previous Advisors. Sounds like a poor start to me.
Have one of the rats eat the Advisor. That might help.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2020, 11:04:51 am »
+10

Dominion menagerie oh yeah! Awesome! I love animals! I volunteer at a zoo. When I made my own fan based expansions I did it with adding more animals to dominion. Now I can put that on hold while wait for my new favorite expansion. I canít wait to see how the mechanics work in this expansion almost as much as which animals will be in this expansion. Thanks so much Donald for making a animal expansion for dominion. You are awesome!
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2020, 11:09:28 am »
0

Do we think it is likely that all the Kingdoms are animals or just 6-10?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2020, 11:48:47 am »
+2

Do we think it is likely that all the Kingdoms are animals or just 6-10?

I'd assume basically no chance of them being all animals. At most, half of them.
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