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Author Topic: Dominion: Menagerie  (Read 22891 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #125 on: February 17, 2020, 09:38:29 am »
0

The difference is that the Coffer can't do anything except increase your buying power; and you know exactly whether or not you need it at any given moment. Drawing an extra card now could easily be the difference between drawing your deck this turn and not. I'm thinking specifically engines.
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #126 on: February 17, 2020, 10:14:25 am »
+5

Uhm... Sinister Plot? Why are you guys talking like a +1 Card token is all theoretical?

GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #127 on: February 17, 2020, 10:33:50 am »
0

Uhm... Sinister Plot? Why are you guys talking like a +1 Card token is all theoretical?

Well the big difference there is that it's not a choice between card now or card later... you get more cards per turn if you take more at once. Taking cards as soon as possible means only getting 1/2 cards per turn.
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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #128 on: February 17, 2020, 10:40:52 am »
0

Uhm... Sinister Plot? Why are you guys talking like a +1 Card token is all theoretical?

Well the big difference there is that it's not a choice between card now or card later... you get more cards per turn if you take more at once. Taking cards as soon as possible means only getting 1/2 cards per turn.

Sure, there are differences. But if you would always want to use your +1 Card token and never save it, surely it would be the same for Sinister Plot? You would use it to draw 1 extra every other turn.

GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #129 on: February 17, 2020, 11:16:47 am »
0

Uhm... Sinister Plot? Why are you guys talking like a +1 Card token is all theoretical?

Well the big difference there is that it's not a choice between card now or card later... you get more cards per turn if you take more at once. Taking cards as soon as possible means only getting 1/2 cards per turn.

Sure, there are differences. But if you would always want to use your +1 Card token and never save it, surely it would be the same for Sinister Plot? You would use it to draw 1 extra every other turn.

With Sinister Plot, choosing to use it now means getting fewer total cards from it. With a card/horse token, you get the same number of total cards whether you use it now or later.
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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #130 on: February 17, 2020, 12:09:31 pm »
0

With Sinister Plot, choosing to use it now means getting fewer total cards from it. With a card/horse token, you get the same number of total cards whether you use it now or later.

Ok, that's true. With Sinister Plot, you use all your tokens at the expense of a token. I still feel like Sinister Plot tells us that sometimes it's better to wait for a big payout. The relative cost decreases the longer you wait. But you're right that it's not exactly comparable.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 12:10:46 pm by Jeebus »
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #131 on: February 17, 2020, 01:09:04 pm »
0

The difference is that the Coffer can't do anything except increase your buying power; and you know exactly whether or not you need it at any given moment. Drawing an extra card now could easily be the difference between drawing your deck this turn and not. I'm thinking specifically engines.

The difference between drawing your deck this turn and not is not a very big difference if you've already drawn 90-93% of it anyway. It's a big difference if your starting 5 on a future turn gives you a dud turn.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #132 on: February 17, 2020, 01:49:41 pm »
0

Maybe the actual difference is more in uncertainty instead of strength; and the uncertainty mislead me into thinking it was strength... to explain, you always know for sure if you want/need to use a Coffer now; and most of the time that you don't use it, it's because using it would literally add 0 benefit to your current turn (you already had enough money to buy the card you wanted). So the choice isn't as often between getting a benefit now vs later; it's about using the coffer when it actually does give a benefit.

With the card token; not using it now is sacrificing something now for something later. Even if you have enough money to buy what you want; using the card token is still going to give some sort of benefit (maybe as little as cycling; but maybe drawing another attack, or a gainer, or a +buy, etc). And you don't know for sure what you are sacrificing. It's more of a gamble.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #133 on: February 17, 2020, 04:31:46 pm »
+1

Maybe the actual difference is more in uncertainty instead of strength; and the uncertainty mislead me into thinking it was strength... to explain, you always know for sure if you want/need to use a Coffer now; and most of the time that you don't use it, it's because using it would literally add 0 benefit to your current turn (you already had enough money to buy the card you wanted). So the choice isn't as often between getting a benefit now vs later; it's about using the coffer when it actually does give a benefit.

With the card token; not using it now is sacrificing something now for something later. Even if you have enough money to buy what you want; using the card token is still going to give some sort of benefit (maybe as little as cycling; but maybe drawing another attack, or a gainer, or a +buy, etc). And you don't know for sure what you are sacrificing. It's more of a gamble.

It's definitely uncertain when we're talking about it on paper but I suspect that in practice it won't be that hard to make the call. You know what's in your deck so you know what you're hoping to accomplish, and you have at least a rough idea how likely it is that you'll succeed. It's worth noting that now vs. later doesn't always accomplish anything because drawing a Chapel on turn 3 or drawing it on turn 4 is pretty much the same. But if it's t4 and you haven't drawn your Chapel yet, spending a token gives you a 50% chance to save the Chapel from missing the shuffle, which is probably one of the best uses of the token. If it's t4 and you haven't drawn your last two Estates yet, spending a token gives you a 100% chance to save an Estate from missing the shuffle, which is obviously terrible. This is effectively the same scenario that you have in the engine that doesn't overdraw, because in that situation, something misses the shuffle every turn unless you spend the tokens, and whether spending the tokens is good or not depends on what's about to miss the shuffle.
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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #134 on: February 24, 2020, 09:50:48 am »
+1

So, with Sinister Plot you have to decide at the start of the turn. If +card tokens could be used at any time during your action phase, then before you spend the tokens you can see if the two villages you started with happen to draw smithies, which would make the need for spending the tokens unnecessary. With Sinister Plot you may not be able to take that chance and will have to spend the tokens despite them ultimately not having been necessary.
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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #135 on: February 25, 2020, 11:30:10 am »
+3

New Dominion expansions are always exciting. 


Now I'll have another box to add to my Menagarie of Dominion-related cardboard, further confusing my family as to why on Earth I have like 13 (or 14?) boxes just related to Dominion but oh well :p

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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #136 on: February 28, 2020, 03:27:09 am »
+26

There is no Menagerie subforum yet! Maybe there won't be one, dunno, but, this would go there if there was one.

Menagerie previews start Monday, and as usual I have a teaser. I like trying different things with the teasers, and well this time the teaser is little bits of text from 10 cards or card-shaped things. See what you can make of them.

"5 or fewer"
"$1 less per"
"a different thing"
"an unused Action"
"either now or"
"hand three times"
"instead, and vice-versa"
"instead of paying"
"province, a duchy"
"they discard their"
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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #137 on: February 28, 2020, 04:36:32 am »
+4

Oh snap.

I still remember being all sad after being told there wouldn't be any more expansions after guilds.

Menagerie previews start Monday, and as usual I have a teaser. I like trying different things with the teasers, and well this time the teaser is little bits of text from 10 cards or card-shaped things. See what you can make of them.

"5 or fewer"
"$1 less per"
"a different thing"
"an unused Action"
"either now or"
"hand three times"
"instead, and vice-versa"
"instead of paying"
"province, a duchy"
"they discard their"

Ordered by confidence (low to lower):

[As part of effect]: "If you have an unused action, +1 Action"

[Below horizontal line]: "when you buy this card, instead of paying for it, you may do [bad thing]"

[Below horizontal line]: "During your buy phase, this costs 1$ less per [insert name of this card] you have in play"

[On an attack]: "Until your next turn, when another player didn't buy a Province, a duchy, or a [insert name of this card] at the end of their turn, they gain a Curse"

[Below horizontal line]: "While this is in play, when you would gain +1 Action, you may gain +1$ instead, and vice versa."
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #138 on: February 28, 2020, 11:31:21 am »
+3

"hand three times"
One card already in the game says this: King's Court. Maybe some sort of KC variant?
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scolapasta

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #139 on: February 28, 2020, 11:54:03 am »
+1


I can think of something (along the lines of what silverspawn and hhelibebcnofnena posted) for most of these, but this one seems especially interesting:

"a different thing"

Speculation: These three:
"an unused Action"
"instead, and vice-versa"
"instead of paying"

come from Ways.
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tim17

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #140 on: February 28, 2020, 12:02:41 pm »
+13

There is no Menagerie subforum yet! Maybe there won't be one, dunno, but, this would go there if there was one.

Menagerie previews start Monday, and as usual I have a teaser. I like trying different things with the teasers, and well this time the teaser is little bits of text from 10 cards or card-shaped things. See what you can make of them.

"5 or fewer"
"$1 less per"
"a different thing"
"an unused Action"
"either now or"
"hand three times"
"instead, and vice-versa"
"instead of paying"
"province, a duchy"
"they discard their"

I'm 98% sure that all of these are right. The last one was a tip from Jeff Kornberg.

Setup: In games with 5 or fewer players, add dummy players until there are 6 players in the game, and add Messenger to the kingdom.

Menagerie costs $1 less per copy of Dominion: Menagerie you own.

When you gain this, you may instead (for no additional cost) buy a different thing that is card-shaped of equal or lesser printed cost.

+1 Card, +1 Action. If you have an unused Action, discard your hand.

At the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game, +10 cards. Either now or at the start of your next turn, the player to your left gains all the victory cards in the supply.

Compute by hand three times seven. If the answer is prime, gain all the curses from the supply.

When you buy a copper, you may gain a curse instead, and vice-versa.

When you buy this, you may pay $4 for it instead of paying $5 for it.

Compared to province, a duchy is worth 3 fewer points. (This has no effect on gameplay; it is merely a statement taking up valuable space on a card-shaped thing)

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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #141 on: February 28, 2020, 12:26:39 pm »
+2

"a different thing"

I can't imagine an instruction where the best way to phrase it is with the word "thing". Hopefully it's my imagination that's lacking!

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #142 on: February 28, 2020, 12:32:26 pm »
0

"a different thing"

I can't imagine an instruction where the best way to phrase it is with the word "thing". Hopefully it's my imagination that's lacking!
Maybe 'Thing' is a 'Gathering' or 'Castles'-style card type.

scolapasta

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #143 on: February 28, 2020, 12:44:42 pm »
+2


Speculation: These three:
"an unused Action"
"instead, and vice-versa"
"instead of paying"

come from Ways.

Actually, I am now thinking "instead, and vice-versa" could be a cool reaction (based on reading someone's favorite card from the new set was blue), something alone the lines of:
"When you discard a card, you may reveal this from your hand to trash it instead, and vice-versa. If you do, discard this."
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #144 on: February 28, 2020, 01:21:24 pm »
+1

"a different thing"

I can't imagine an instruction where the best way to phrase it is with the word "thing". Hopefully it's my imagination that's lacking!
Maybe 'Thing' is a 'Gathering' or 'Castles'-style card type.

I'm not sure if there would be a better way to word it, but I'm assuming "thing" would be used if it's multiple different types of objects that are being referenced, but where they're not all "objects" so "thing" is better. Maybe there's a long parentheses afterwards to explain what "thing" refers to, although I feel that would be too much text. You could use "thing" to refer to these things collectively that another word might not be as good at doing: coffers, villagers, ways, tavern mat, etc.

I don't think this would be a good card idea at all, but the card could be an action that reads something like "Each time you play this card on a turn, you may choose a different thing that your opponents cannot use on their turn" (almost like a reverse Contraband, but you can pick things like villagers, coffers, ways, etc.).
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #145 on: February 28, 2020, 01:25:57 pm »
0

I'm not sure if there would be a better way to word it, but I'm assuming "thing" would be used if it's multiple different types of objects that are being referenced, but where they're not all "objects" so "thing" is better. Maybe there's a long parentheses afterwards to explain what "thing" refers to, although I feel that would be too much text. You could use "thing" to refer to these things collectively that another word might not be as good at doing: coffers, villagers, ways, tavern mat, etc.

I don't think this would be a good card idea at all, but the card could be an action that reads something like "Each time you play this card on a turn, you may choose a different thing that your opponents cannot use on their turn" (almost like a reverse Contraband, but you can pick things like villagers, coffers, ways, etc.).

I'm also thinking that it probably has to do with some choice. But why not write "make a different choice for/about" or something?

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #146 on: February 28, 2020, 02:33:05 pm »
0

There is no Menagerie subforum yet! Maybe there won't be one, dunno, but, this would go there if there was one.

Menagerie previews start Monday, and as usual I have a teaser. I like trying different things with the teasers, and well this time the teaser is little bits of text from 10 cards or card-shaped things. See what you can make of them.

"5 or fewer"
"$1 less per"
"a different thing"
"an unused Action"
"either now or"
"hand three times"
"instead, and vice-versa"
"instead of paying"
"province, a duchy"
"they discard their"

The "an" in front of "unused Action" narrows down what it could be.  If the "an" weren't there, I'd assume it was something about "per unused Action", similar to Diadem.  Also, "unused" would be weirdly redundant for most things I can think of using Action cards (e.g., "discard an Action card" - "unused" would be redundant since obviously if it's in your hand to discard it can't have been used!)

Maybe Villagers are being brought back?  So, you might have an Event that has something like "If you have an used Action, +1 villager"

Oh!  Or maybe this would be something with Horses, so you can exchange an unused Action for a Horse that you can use in a later turn

"5 or fewer" has a few interesting possibilities.  My guess is something about "If you have 5 or fewer cards in your hand after playing this ...." (probably something with at least +2 cards, since otherwise having 5 or fewer cards left would be too easy)  But another interesting possibility is something like Council Room, but with a limit in its effect on other people.  "Each other player with 5 or fewer cards in their hand draws one card", so, unlike Council Room, its benefit to other people would be capped, and so there wouldn't ordinarily be any stacking of its effect (unless, of course, a discard attack had been played previously, in which case it would stack until they hit 6 cards)

"Province, a duchy" presumably would be something that would reference Victory cards, but only the base victory cards, so "a Province, a Duchy, or an Estate".  Lots of possible options there, considering how many cards there already are referencing Victory cards

"Hand three times" - My first thought was a joking "reveal your hand three times" which would obviously be pointless (well, unless you happened to have a Patron in your hand ... +3 coffers!)  Maybe something like "trash a card from your hand three times", probably some trash-for-benefit card where you'd get something from the cards you trash

"Instead of paying" maybe a Way that's something like "When you would buy a card, instead of paying its cost, you may trash a card costing at least as much from your hand"

"They discard their" this must be some kind of conditional hand-discarding attack.  Something like "Each other player reveals their hand, if they have X, they discard their hand and draw four cards" or "Each other player reveals their hand.  They discard their hand and draw four cards or [other option (gain a curse maybe?)], your choice"

"$1 less per" and "either now or" could be a lot of different things, so I'm not even going to try to guess
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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #147 on: February 28, 2020, 02:37:13 pm »
0


Speculation: These three:
"an unused Action"
"instead, and vice-versa"
"instead of paying"

come from Ways.

Actually, I am now thinking "instead, and vice-versa" could be a cool reaction (based on reading someone's favorite card from the new set was blue), something alone the lines of:
"When you discard a card, you may reveal this from your hand to trash it instead, and vice-versa. If you do, discard this."

That would be a really interesting card.  It would make discard attacks a lot less useful, since you'd frequently end up helping your opponents, especially if you also have junking and/or cursing attacks in the game.  "Oh, you played Militia?  Thanks for letting me trash this Curse!"  Would especially interact weirdly with the Tomb landmark!
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scolapasta

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #148 on: February 28, 2020, 02:47:04 pm »
+1


Speculation: These three:
"an unused Action"
"instead, and vice-versa"
"instead of paying"

come from Ways.

Actually, I am now thinking "instead, and vice-versa" could be a cool reaction (based on reading someone's favorite card from the new set was blue), something alone the lines of:
"When you discard a card, you may reveal this from your hand to trash it instead, and vice-versa. If you do, discard this."

That would be a really interesting card.  It would make discard attacks a lot less useful, since you'd frequently end up helping your opponents, especially if you also have junking and/or cursing attacks in the game.  "Oh, you played Militia?  Thanks for letting me trash this Curse!"  Would especially interact weirdly with the Tomb landmark!

Right. I slight change to my thoughts, I'm thinking it'll have to be "when you would discard a card", meaning you wouldn't be able to, for example:
discard for Plaza, trash a copper and get +1 Coffers
trash a Gold with remodel, discard it, and also gain a province

(one of my variants had a similar when you would trash, you may discard clause, so I'd be excited if it were this)

"5 or fewer" likely refers to hands (since "5"), but could also refer to supply piles, e.g. "If there are 5 or fewer Provinces left in the supply".

This is a great idea for the teaser! :)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2020, 03:48:01 pm by scolapasta »
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market squire

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Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« Reply #149 on: February 28, 2020, 08:10:50 pm »
+2

"a different thing"

I can't imagine an instruction where the best way to phrase it is with the word "thing". Hopefully it's my imagination that's lacking!

To me, the only thing that would make sense for this thing under the current ruleset would be a formal term for those things that Donald calls "card-shaped thingys". I'd imagine an effect that refers to buying anything (a card or an event) and then does something to a different thing (card or event or project). Like "when you buy this, you may buy a different thing for less" or something, i don't know.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2020, 08:13:08 pm by market squire »
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