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Author Topic: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration  (Read 757 times)

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CaptainTheo

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Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« on: December 09, 2019, 01:55:12 am »
+1

Scenario (based on the recent rule tweaks): I play Necromancer and use it to play Band of Misfits (or Overlord) from the Trash, which then plays a Duration like Fishing Village from the supply. Necromancer cannot play a Duration directly but here it has played one indirectly. Does Necromancer remain in play?

I would have expected the answer to be no - if the BoM were to play Fishing Village directly, it would stay in play, but in this scenario it's indirect.
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mxdata

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Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2019, 03:58:28 am »
0

Scenario (based on the recent rule tweaks): I play Necromancer and use it to play Band of Misfits (or Overlord) from the Trash, which then plays a Duration like Fishing Village from the supply. Necromancer cannot play a Duration directly but here it has played one indirectly. Does Necromancer remain in play?

I would have expected the answer to be no - if the BoM were to play Fishing Village directly, it would stay in play, but in this scenario it's indirect.
I think it would.  If you play BoM/Overlord as a Throne Room which in turn plays a duration card, it stays out - that's also an indirect play

A related question, though - if the BoM/Overlord from the trash is playing a duration card, does it remain face-down until the duration card is out of play?
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Dominionaer

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Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2019, 04:24:38 am »
+1

A related question, though - if the BoM/Overlord from the trash is playing a duration card, does it remain face-down until the duration card is out of play?

Why should it?
Quote
...and turning it face down for the turn.
The purpose of turning face-down is to prevent it getting played a second time in that same turn.
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Ingix

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Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2019, 04:39:03 am »
+1

On the original question, mxdata is right. From the errata:

Quote
Some cards, like the new Band of Misfits, can play a card that isn't put into play. When you play Band of Misfits, leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play.
...
These rules apply to all of the cards that play cards without putting them into play: currently, Band of Misfits, Overlord, Inheritance, Necromancer, and Captain.

So the Necromancer cares about then when Band of Misfits would leave play. But by the same rule, that Band of Misfits cares about when Fishing Village would leave play. The Fishing Village would leave play on your next turn, not this turn. That means the Band of Misfits would leave play on your next turn as well. That means the (actually in play) Necromancer will leave play on your next turn.

ADDED: Note that this scenario with one "plays a card but doesn't put it into play" card (Necromancer) playing another such card (Band of Misfits) only works when one is a Necromancer or inherited Estate (must be the second), because they are not Command cards (additional part of the errata). Overlord for example can't play a Band of Misfits any more.

On the face down question from mxdata, Dominionaer has the answer and reasoning exactly right.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 04:56:14 am by Ingix »
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markusin

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Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2019, 08:17:22 am »
+1

On the original question, mxdata is right. From the errata:

Quote
Some cards, like the new Band of Misfits, can play a card that isn't put into play. When you play Band of Misfits, leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play.
...
These rules apply to all of the cards that play cards without putting them into play: currently, Band of Misfits, Overlord, Inheritance, Necromancer, and Captain.

So the Necromancer cares about then when Band of Misfits would leave play. But by the same rule, that Band of Misfits cares about when Fishing Village would leave play. The Fishing Village would leave play on your next turn, not this turn. That means the Band of Misfits would leave play on your next turn as well. That means the (actually in play) Necromancer will leave play on your next turn.

Right, it's a bit confusing because if you play Throne Room to play a Throne room that plays a duration, only one or those Throne Rooms would stay out. But, the cards in the Band of Misfits have different rules. Normally the command typing already prevents the scenario of such a card playing a copy of itself, but necromancer gets a pass on needing the command type.

If I understand it right, if a necromancer plays a Band of Misfits from the trash, and that Band of Misfits plays a Throne Room from the supply, and that Throne Room plays a duration, the Necromancer also stays out, correct? The Band of Misfits would have stayed out since the Throne Room it plays would have, and the Necromancer stays out because the Band of Misfits it plays would have stayed out.
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Ingix

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Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2019, 02:07:34 pm »
0

If I understand it right, if a necromancer plays a Band of Misfits from the trash, and that Band of Misfits plays a Throne Room from the supply, and that Throne Room plays a duration, the Necromancer also stays out, correct? The Band of Misfits would have stayed out since the Throne Room it plays would have, and the Necromancer stays out because the Band of Misfits it plays would have stayed out.

Exactly (under the assumption that the Duration stays out). If you want to find out if a given card stays out, you apply the rules 'forward' (Is the card a Duartion, Throne-like or BoM-like? If yes, look if the rule for it applies, and if it is a Throne- or BoM-like, that will involve looking at the card(s) it played, recursively). In this case:

Necromancer plays Band of Misfits, stays out if Band of Misfits would stay out.
Band of Misfits plays Throne Room, stays out if Throne Room would stay out.
Throne Room plays Duration, stays out if Duration stays out.
Duration stays out (directly determined by the effect it has, or maybe other criteria if it is a BoM-like as well (Captain))

So if the Duration stays out, so will Necromancer, Band of Misfits and Throne Room.
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Jeebus

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Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2019, 02:00:30 pm »
0

This is exactly why these new tracking rules are not a good solution, as I stated before:

I'm not a fan of the new rule for tracking these cards. It seems to be a regression to the confusion of former rules for tracking TR + Duration and TR + TR + Duration.

Now we have very different rules for TR + Duration and BoM + Duration. TR is simple and clean, it stays as long as the Duration stays. But with BoM, we have to look at when the Duration or TR would have been discarded.

As I said, a better solution would be to just live with the lack of tracking. Alternatively, add "non-Duration" to BoM, Overlord and Inheritance; now you don't need this confusing tracking rule. (The loss of functionality by not being able to play Durations with those specific cards is not a good reason to not change it.)

A third option, less good but at least avoids the confusion presented in this thread: Add "non-Command" to Necromancer. You can also make them all consistent by dropping "non-Duration" from Captain and Necromancer, and add the Command type to Necromancer and Inherited Estates. Now they can play Durations with the exact same tracking, and they can't play each other.

CaptainTheo

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Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2019, 07:15:46 pm »
0

Thanks for the clarification!

I had one more question along these lines: if I've acquired Capitalism and use Counterfeit to play a Duration with $ like Merchant Ship twice and trash it, is Counterfeit removed from play at the end of the current turn?

I would have thought so, because this was the case with Procession, before that card lost the ability to play Durations.
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Ingix

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Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2019, 02:06:35 am »
0

Counterfeit is a "Throne-like" card. So it stays out as long as the Duration card (Merchant Ship) it double played. The Duration card didn't stay out (it left play even earlier than Cleanup), so there is no reason for Counterfeit to stay out. That means, unfortunately, that you''ll  need to remember the Merchant Ship effect next turn without a tracking mechanism.
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markusin

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Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2019, 12:32:51 pm »
+3

Counterfeit is a "Throne-like" card. So it stays out as long as the Duration card (Merchant Ship) it double played. The Duration card didn't stay out (it left play even earlier than Cleanup), so there is no reason for Counterfeit to stay out. That means, unfortunately, that you''ll  need to remember the Merchant Ship effect next turn without a tracking mechanism.

Lol I guess Counterfeit should have also received errata to say "non-duration Treasure".
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Jeebus

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Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2020, 06:49:02 pm »
0

Donald, I'm actually wondering if Necromancer is supposed to be covered by this rule? I know that you included it in the rule, but you later stated that the FAQs for each card would explain how this works. Are you really planning to cover it in the FAQ for Necromancer? Necromancer can't play a Duration directly, so the only way for it to be affected by this rule is if it plays a BoM, Overlord or Inherited Estate, playing a Duration. Captain is exactly the same.

Donald X.

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Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2020, 03:08:34 am »
0

Donald, I'm actually wondering if Necromancer is supposed to be covered by this rule? I know that you included it in the rule, but you later stated that the FAQs for each card would explain how this works. Are you really planning to cover it in the FAQ for Necromancer? Necromancer can't play a Duration directly, so the only way for it to be affected by this rule is if it plays a BoM, Overlord or Inherited Estate, playing a Duration. Captain is exactly the same.
These days I try not to go too nuts in the FAQs these days; I try to answer questions people will actually look in the rulebook for the answers for. Here we're dealing with errata so probably I do need to cover it in the FAQ when the time comes.
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Jeebus

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Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2020, 10:39:37 am »
0

Donald, I'm actually wondering if Necromancer is supposed to be covered by this rule? I know that you included it in the rule, but you later stated that the FAQs for each card would explain how this works. Are you really planning to cover it in the FAQ for Necromancer? Necromancer can't play a Duration directly, so the only way for it to be affected by this rule is if it plays a BoM, Overlord or Inherited Estate, playing a Duration. Captain is exactly the same.
These days I try not to go too nuts in the FAQs these days; I try to answer questions people will actually look in the rulebook for the answers for. Here we're dealing with errata so probably I do need to cover it in the FAQ when the time comes.

So you're saying that the tracking rule also applies to Necromancer and Captain, even though it means that you have to specify just this corner case?

Donald X.

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Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2020, 06:25:29 pm »
0

Donald, I'm actually wondering if Necromancer is supposed to be covered by this rule? I know that you included it in the rule, but you later stated that the FAQs for each card would explain how this works. Are you really planning to cover it in the FAQ for Necromancer? Necromancer can't play a Duration directly, so the only way for it to be affected by this rule is if it plays a BoM, Overlord or Inherited Estate, playing a Duration. Captain is exactly the same.
These days I try not to go too nuts in the FAQs these days; I try to answer questions people will actually look in the rulebook for the answers for. Here we're dealing with errata so probably I do need to cover it in the FAQ when the time comes.

So you're saying that the tracking rule also applies to Necromancer and Captain, even though it means that you have to specify just this corner case?
It's possible I don't understand the question or your perspective.

There's a general rule for dealing with tracking when playing a card without putting it into play. It certainly applies to Necromancer and Captain.
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Jeebus

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Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2020, 06:41:27 pm »
0

If the rule is a general rule, then okay it does also cover Necromancer and Captain.

My question was because Necromancer and Captain can't play Durations, it seems that the rule would only be needed for them in extreme corner cases like those presented in this thread. So I wondered if you still would want to cover Necromancer and Captain and include this rule in their FAQ. However, I've actually realized that there is also the case of playing Necromancer/Captain on a Throne Room playing a Duration, so the rule would be needed reasonably often.
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