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[tlloyd]

Saboteur looks so big and scary to new Dominion players, and is largely ignored by most experienced players. One fairly well-known exception to this is an engine that can play Saboteur multiple times on every turn (King's Court being the most effective way to do this). But is that really the limit of Saboteur's usefulness? I'd love to see a full-blown article exploring circumstances in which Saboteur is worth the investment.

I don't consider myself an expert on Saboteur (or anything else Dominion-related, for that matter), but I think I am more open to its possible upsides than many experienced players. I can recall many times I have won a game with Saboteur only to be told by my higher-ranked opponent how foolish I was for buying one.

So to get the ball rolling, here's my two cents on Saboteur: Unless you can play it multiple times each turn, it's not going to be a very effective tool for grinding down the general strength (or VP value) of the opponent's deck. Saboteur is just not worth it in BM games.

But Saboteur can be effective against single-card engines. In a Minion game with at least decent trashing, a single Saboteur as your terminal action can be very effective, because your opponent only has to lose one or two Minions for his deck to tank. Without a sufficient number of Minions, the deck loses its ability to cycle and can't reach $8 for Provinces. Even with four Minions your opponent likely will have to revert to a BM strategy halfway through the game, and the odds are against him. Throw in the fact that you may get lucky and reduce his VP total, and the Saboteur becomes a good investment. The only downside (other than the opportunity cost of the Sab), is the chance that you will take out a few silvers and thereby increase the opponent's Minion concentration. But most Minion decks, once they start greening, will eventually reach a point where silvers are necessary to reach $8. If your opponent has a couple Provinces and can no longer reach $8, he has to decide whether to re-build his deck or to settle for Duchies. Either way, the Saboteur probably has bought you enough time to make up for the cost of buying it and carrying it in your deck.

I think a similar argument can be made for Saboteur in Hunting Party games (which, by the way, are near the top of my boring strategies list). If your opponent has followed the standard "1 Gold, 1-2 Silvers, 1 Terminal silver, infinite HPs" formula, his deck is vulnerable to Sab for two reasons: first, his deck is relying heavily on a single card, and removing one or more of those cards from his deck will really hurt (unlike turning a gold into a silver in BM games). Second, his deck is intentionally thin on cards that cost $3 or more, and very thick on the target card, which improves your odds of delivering the fatal blow.

Are there other situations where Saboteur is effective? Disagree with everything I've written here (as my last Saboteur victim did)? Write the article!   

[tko]

This is similar to your Hunting Party idea.  I used Sabotuer played often by Golem.  So each Golem could either play 2 Sabotuers, or the Fortune Teller then Sabotuer combo (though I messed it up the 1st chance I had it).

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120204-160929-56e45fff.html

[verikt]

in a highway game where you're guaranteed to hit province, (endgame) or where he opened amb amb and you started 5-2. Any game with high trashing really. If he only has one or two really valuable cards and you knock them out, it could be the game.Had it done to me.

[philosophyguy]

Duke/Duchy games are vulnerable to Sab because a hit Duchy lowers the value of all the Dukes. Gardens and Silk Roads are somewhat vulnerable to Sab since hitting one of those key cards is like virtually denying the opponent a favorable split, without having to purchase the card on your own. I don't know how Sab would work in a Fairgrounds game; on the one hand, it could really mess with the opponent's deck if it hits one of their unique, high-value cards, but odds are they could easily find something to replace it with that still contributes in some way to their deck.

[ftl]

I've found that Sab can be useful without TR and KC if you have a deck that will reliably draw itself every turn. But ONLY then.

I've had a few good games with sab recently. One was a colony game with university and rabble. I went for university, used the universities to gain rabbles. My opponent skipped university, and so got off to a much quicker start; I think he had two colonies and two plats by the time I got my first plat. But at that point, I was cycling through my deck really fast, and gaining multiple 5-cost actions every turn for free; most of them were rabbles, but I occasionally made them sabs. Had two by the end? Maybe three?  (I think there was also some other village around? Which I also gained with universities sometimes? Don't remember) I ended up winning that game something like 4 colonies and a province to 1 colony and 4 provinces, having rabbled his colonies to the top of the deck and then sabbed them.

There was another game, also a colony game I believe, where there was a city race which I lost. My opponent then added in some more money and started greening; I kept trashing (with, I think, Masq?) until I could draw my whole deck, and then added in a sab and a late-game sea hag, both of which which I played every turn, and ended up pulling out a win.

Also had an IRL game where I went for a native village//library engine, and added in one late sab. (In retrospect, that one was a mistake which I got away with rather than a good move, though.)

I think the excessive draw power and excessive free actions are key here. Sab takes up a card in your hand, and it costs a turn to buy it, and it gives you no benefit. So that really sucks. However, if you're drawing everything in your deck anyway (or, at least, drawing lots of cards, if not your whole deck), and are doing it reliably, then the one card slot doesn't matter. In all three of those games, I never felt like I wished I had drawn [something else] instead of the sab, because I drew everything I wanted already.

And if for whatever reason, you have an excess of actions, then the fact that it's a terminal action doesn't matter. In all three games I'm remembering, there was a reason to overinvest in villages; in the uni case, my 'village' was also a gainer, in the city case my village was also my card draw. In the NV/Library case, NV contributes pretty well to the card draw, since library draws up to 7 anyway AND then you play a single NV to draw up all the cards from the mat. And with early steward trashing, I had lots of $2  turns anyway.

Of course, Sab still has the opportunity cost of buying it instead of another $5. So you're giving up one turn of purchasing power advancement in exchange for hurting your opponent by $2 per turn. I think it's sometimes worth it.

[chwhite]

I mostly agree with this, just one minor nitpick:

But most Minion decks, once they start greening, will eventually reach a point where silvers are necessary to reach $8.

Most Minion decks do want another source of income beyond just the Minions themselves, but a) generally you want to get that income source before you start greening, and b) Silver is just about the worst possible option there is. 

[timchen]

my favorite saboteur game is with Fishing village, tactician, outpost, saboteur and throne room.

[DG]

With saboteur you generally need to know what you're attacking, why you're doing it, and what you're opponent is going to take as replacements. Key cards like hunting parties, duchy/duke, minions, king's courts, alchemists, cities, ventures, engine components can be worth attacking, as can cards from the black market. Easily replaceable cards like gold are generally not worth attacking. In general the simpler the deck the more likely it is to withstand sabotage.

Attacking an opponent with a good vp lead seems like a plan but often the opponent will just use the replacement cards to close out the game either by emptying cheap piles or taking other vp cards. In fact you stay away from the saboteur if the opponent can take good replacements such as cheap actions into a scrying pool deck or havens that can hide cards between turns. Combining the saboteur with other attacks can sometimes ensure that your opponent struggles to repurchase trashed cards.

The saboteur has an opportunity cost of an action to play and you're always missing the other 5 cost card you could have bought instead. The times when this opportunity cost is reduced would be when you have good spending anyway (and don't need an extra silver), you don't have extra buys, and you always have a spare action. The hunting party deck seems fertile ground for a saboteur since you can often get good spending even with the saboteur and you can sabotage your opponent's key cards repeatedly (such as hunting parties).

There are many saboteur defences so it is almost impossible to list them all. Buying or gaining many low cards (silver) can be a defence, since they will pack your deck and reduce the chance of your high cost cards being hit. On the other hand you need to find a use for these cards if you're filling your deck with them. Trashing out your poorest cards can make a saboteur less painful, since if your worst draw is 5 copper then you are usually going to improve your deck faster than the saboteur can damage it. On the other hand trashing your own useful cards for spending, perhaps with even a moneylender, can seem counter productive once the saboteur removes your best cards leaving little value in your deck.

Buying high cost cards is always good saboteur defence. Even in a four player game, someone buying festivals+treasure against 3 saboteur opponents is most likely to win, but as soon as someone has to use their 5$ hands for silvers they are likely to lose since they need the resilience of trashing the 5 cost cards for silvers.

[tlloyd]

I mostly agree with this, just one minor nitpick:

But most Minion decks, once they start greening, will eventually reach a point where silvers are necessary to reach $8.

Most Minion decks do want another source of income beyond just the Minions themselves, but a) generally you want to get that income source before you start greening, and b) Silver is just about the worst possible option there is.

I agree with both points. You want to already have whatever additional sources of income you need by the time you start greening. A trim Minion deck can probably reach $8 on Minions alone for the first Province. Once you start greening, however, the other sources of income (that you already had) become necessary to reach $8. If you lose a Minion or two, or even a few of those now-necessary Silvers, just as you start greening, your deck goes from great to terrible really fast. And I only meant to say that you need at least Silvers--clearly there are better options.

[tlloyd]

my favorite saboteur game is with Fishing village, tactician, outpost, saboteur and throne room.

That show up often?   

[^_^_^_^]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-092732-06223aad.html
Well, thought I would post this here since I just played this game. In this Soboteur actually helped transform the game a LOT. We were both trying to make really tough decisions. I saw the high chance for a 3-pile and went for going for as many estates from trashed cards as I could and won. Man though, it was a crazy game.

I bought bridges and festivals to try to stop Soboteurs from reaching my Cities. The game was totally different from any normal City game and the Horns were bought but almost never used. We were too scared of them getting trashed for Silver/estate to buy more. I have no idea whether there was a better way to play this because it just devolved into Sob wars. And this is with a level 30-34(opponent said he always hovers there) and a level 23-5(me, for now).

[jotheonah]

This has been said but it's worth reiterating.  Saboteur is good only in cases where you're attack on your opponent's deck is actually worse than your attack on your own.  Having a main terminal that has a negative effect on your deck economy is in some ways a guaranteed hurt to your deck, at least in terms of what else you could be doing with that terminal, whereas it's a somewhat random and often not that bad effect on your opponent's deck. I'll sometimes buy an early Province if my opponent has a Sab hoping it will get hit - and then turning it into a Gold or a Grand Market if it does. In a case like that, you just gave up an action to improve my buying power (albeit at the expense of some VP, but we do that to ourselves in the early game all the time).

[timchen]

my favorite saboteur game is with Fishing village, tactician, outpost, saboteur and throne room.

That show up often?   

Not really, but the idea is there. Outpost is actually quite saboteur friendly; but you certainly need +action and trashing or big draw. Just got a game today with chapel, wharf, outpost and saboteur. Easy to play 5 saboteurs per turn.

[Taco Lobster]

Saboteur is also a good counter to alternate victory point strategies, like Gardens or Silk Road.  I lost a game the other day because 3 of my 8 Gardens were hit by a Saboteur.

Edit:  Ah, I see philosphyguy made the point already.

[Robz888]

Saboteur is also a good counter to alternate victory point strategies, like Gardens or Silk Road.  I lost a game the other day because 3 of my 8 Gardens were hit by a Saboteur.

Edit:  Ah, I see philosphyguy made the point already.

I'm not so sure about that. For Gardens, maybe. But in the case of Silk Road, an opponent using Saboteur could be helping you to transform Silvers and such into late-game Estates, which is good for your deck.

Edit: Nope! I am totally wrong.

[Taco Lobster]

Saboteur is also a good counter to alternate victory point strategies, like Gardens or Silk Road.  I lost a game the other day because 3 of my 8 Gardens were hit by a Saboteur.

Edit:  Ah, I see philosphyguy made the point already.

I'm not so sure about that. For Gardens, maybe. But in the case of Silk Road, an opponent using Saboteur could be helping you to transform Silvers and such into late-game Estates, which is good for your deck.

Eh?  Silvers can't change into Estates - it has to be $2 less than the destroyed card.  If it hits a Silk Road, you can change that to an Estate, but that just means you've kept the number of Victory cards the same while losing the extra points the Silk Road would grant, which is a net loss (and can be a substantial net loss if your Silk Roads are worth 3 or 4 when they get hit).

[Robz888]

Saboteur is also a good counter to alternate victory point strategies, like Gardens or Silk Road.  I lost a game the other day because 3 of my 8 Gardens were hit by a Saboteur.

Edit:  Ah, I see philosphyguy made the point already.

I'm not so sure about that. For Gardens, maybe. But in the case of Silk Road, an opponent using Saboteur could be helping you to transform Silvers and such into late-game Estates, which is good for your deck.

Eh?  Silvers can't change into Estates - it has to be $2 less than the destroyed card.  If it hits a Silk Road, you can change that to an Estate, but that just means you've kept the number of Victory cards the same while losing the extra points the Silk Road would grant, which is a net loss (and can be a substantial net loss if your Silk Roads are worth 3 or 4 when they get hit).

Ugh, my mistake. Guess that shows how many times I've ever purchased Saboteur.

[chwhite]

I just played this game, where Saboteur saved my bacon:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/21/game-20120321-105607-e997019c.html

The initial plan was just Bazaar/Rabble and hold off greening until I got to double-Province power, but then my opponent got out to enough of a quick lead that I was worried there weren't enough points to catch up even though I had more of an engine.  Then he bought a Saboteur, which I had just completely not noticed was in the kingdom at all because hey everyone knows Saboteur is junk, and the lightbulb went on.  Saboteur is a nasty addition to Rabble engines, and allowed me to catch up from what otherwise was a hopeless situation.  It's especially nasty once the Duchies run out and those Provinces just get vaporized.

[mnavratil]

Man Rabble/Saboteur is brutal when you can set it up that effectively. Province is trashed, gaining nothing. Ouch.

[tlloyd]

Update: Saboteur is great when your strategy is VP token-based and your opponent is going for victory cards: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201204/16/game-20120416-230318-ddd43797.html

 

[ksf_]

There is something especially gratifying about torching Alchemists.

[ehunt]

I thought I posted this before, but can't find it.

Saboteur + Scrying Pool is brutal because both cards make up for the problem with the other. Namely:

scrying pool takes too long to set up without +buy - sabotaging a province is like buying an extra duchy.

Saboteur is too swingy to work reliably - but scrying pool spies till you find that province.

[AJD]

I thought I posted this before, but can't find it.

Saboteur + Scrying Pool is brutal because both cards make up for the problem with the other. Namely:

scrying pool takes too long to set up without +buy - sabotaging a province is like buying an extra duchy.

Saboteur is too swingy to work reliably - but scrying pool spies till you find that province.

...And meanwhile, Scrying Pool itself is un-sabotageable.