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Author Topic: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks  (Read 19979 times)

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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #200 on: October 17, 2019, 01:36:35 pm »
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a) The change to Inheritance. I dislike it. I think it's unelegant, and also makes it incompatible with Reserves, something that was never a problem to begin with. Personally, I'd say something like "During your turns, Estates gain the types and abilities of the inherited card", and perhaps also forbid Reaction cards. (I suppose this alternative is also imperfect)
Work went into that wording. It's not just some random thing; other stuff was considered, found fault with, and rejected. For example if Inheritance changes all cards on your turn, then your opponent could Inherit Amulet, and you Inherit Caravan Guard, and on your turn you play an Attack and they play an Estate as a Caravan Guard, and now on their turn the Estate is in play and it's an Amulet and uh what's going on here? Or, your opponent could Inherit Ratcatcher, you Inherit Duplicate, and on your turn you buy Messenger for Magpies and your opponent calls their Estate as a Duplicate.

Possibly Inheritance could have changed all copies of the card, if it also limited you to Action cards with no other types.

b) You had clear reasons for not enabling Captain and Necromancer with Durations. Personally, I think BoM and Overlord should be restricted from those as well. It'd also prevents Captain from being part of any socalled "loop" and honestly, a throned Overlord could definitely cause tracking issues as well.
d) Why no Prince errata?
Look back some posts and there will be a story about someone ready to quit the game over throne / one-shot changing. I didn't have to change Prince so I didn't change it. I didn't have to add non-Duration to those cards so I didn't add it. Something being aesthetically displeasing was better than having interactions go away.

Also, the Inheritance interaction from http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18598.0 is Mandarin's doing. Isn't it better to just tweek Mandarin itself, or not consider that card anymore?
It's bad to have Mandarin / Bonfire / Procession exist; they remove a card from play that might have been tracking something important, and in exotic cases can let you replay a card which causes trouble too. That family of cards is a problem; the shapeshifter family was also a problem. The shapeshifter family endlessly produces rules questions, so it was good to fix anyway. It still might be worth fixing the Mandarin family, and there are things you can for Mandarin and Bonfire provided I don't make new cards that seem innocent but break the fixes. Those fixes of course would have unhappy players too. Procession is trickier, trashing an action from play is a basic part of what it does. You could delay the trashing until clean-up, do it like Improve, but there would be some sad players, it's a significant feature of Procession now that it gains a card you might play the same turn.

The thing to be unhappy about is the original mistakes, that I actually put Band of Misfits etc. into sets as printed. The best fix is not having the cards, but we have an obligation to support them; even if new versions of Dark Ages just replaced Band of Misfits with a new card (which would have to be available in an update pack), the rules would still need to handle Band of Misfits. So I was stuck somehow picking errata for it. I didn't have the option of saying, "that's not elegant so I won't do it."

Thanks for the reply and on a second thought really like the changes as they are!
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King Leon

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #201 on: October 20, 2019, 05:33:56 pm »
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It feels like Necromancer should be a Command card. Even though its not involved in the infinite loops, it just seems like it should be for consistency.

Necromancer can still cause endless loops in combination with Procession and Lurker. I guess, this can be fixed when we either Necromancer sets the cards aside before playing them and returning them at the end of the player's turn, so that a Lurker or a Graverobber cannot be used to recycle a face-down card or itself. Extra turns like from Outpost or Mission are limited and won't cause any further issues here.
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popsofctown

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #202 on: October 21, 2019, 02:38:02 pm »
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I'm not vexed by this since I'm ok with the loops a player can optionally stop.  Others might care though
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #203 on: October 21, 2019, 02:44:54 pm »
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It feels like Necromancer should be a Command card. Even though its not involved in the infinite loops, it just seems like it should be for consistency.

Necromancer can still cause endless loops in combination with Procession and Lurker. I guess, this can be fixed when we either Necromancer sets the cards aside before playing them and returning them at the end of the player's turn, so that a Lurker or a Graverobber cannot be used to recycle a face-down card or itself. Extra turns like from Outpost or Mission are limited and won't cause any further issues here.

Can you describe this loop?

Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #204 on: October 25, 2019, 08:53:45 pm »
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The difference now is that it doesn't matter if Tunnel gets covered up, it still works. You are allowed to look through your discard pile for it.

So when you discard one Tunnel, you don't get to look through your discard pile, but when you discard more than one, you do. Correct?

Before, when Warrior discarded your Tunnel and you gained a Gold, the Warrior would lose track of the Tunnel. I take it that this is no longer the case? Warrior will trash the Tunnel?

Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #205 on: October 26, 2019, 12:20:05 am »
+1

So when you discard one Tunnel, you don't get to look through your discard pile, but when you discard more than one, you do. Correct?
Yes.

Before, when Warrior discarded your Tunnel and you gained a Gold, the Warrior would lose track of the Tunnel. I take it that this is no longer the case? Warrior will trash the Tunnel?
Yes, this is the same case as Summoning a Death Cart etc.
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J Reggie

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #206 on: November 11, 2019, 09:28:04 pm »
+3

I skimmed the thread and I don't think I saw this question do sorry if it's already been asked. I don't suppose it's possible we'll see the erratad cards as promos a la the Pathfinding art fix? I know it's unlikely but it would be nice to have them in card form so I don't have to explain the errata to people before a game.

I also love how this is a game where the designer listens to feedback from the community, and while he's not making changes based on every random suggestion, he legitimately cares what people think even when it's probably not going to affect sales in any way. Thanks for being awesome, Donald!

Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #207 on: November 12, 2019, 01:13:21 pm »
+3

I skimmed the thread and I don't think I saw this question do sorry if it's already been asked. I don't suppose it's possible we'll see the erratad cards as promos a la the Pathfinding art fix? I know it's unlikely but it would be nice to have them in card form so I don't have to explain the errata to people before a game.

I also love how this is a game where the designer listens to feedback from the community, and while he's not making changes based on every random suggestion, he legitimately cares what people think even when it's probably not going to affect sales in any way. Thanks for being awesome, Donald!
I'm there for you! Errata promos seem unlikely so far though.
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #208 on: December 21, 2019, 07:47:41 pm »
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Lantern: Artifact
Border Guards you play reveal 3 cards and discard 2. (It takes all 3 being Actions to take the Horn.)

So is Border Guard no longer a shapeshifter now? It kinda sounds like it still is. It doesn't say, "when you play Border Guard, do this instead of doing this", la Enchantress. But I guess it could be interpreted both ways.

In practice I don't think it matters, currently (but I'm not 100% sure). Whether it changes or not, it works with new Inheritance, Necromancer, Captain, and both old and new BoM/Overlord. It doesn't work with old Inheritance. (If my thinking is correct.)

Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #209 on: December 22, 2019, 05:41:06 pm »
+4

Lantern: Artifact
Border Guards you play reveal 3 cards and discard 2. (It takes all 3 being Actions to take the Horn.)
So is Border Guard no longer a shapeshifter now? It kinda sounds like it still is. It doesn't say, "when you play Border Guard, do this instead of doing this", la Enchantress. But I guess it could be interpreted both ways.
The intention is that Border Guard is no longer a shapeshifter. That wording was labored over and that was as good as it got.
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #210 on: January 13, 2020, 04:52:02 pm »
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2. Tracking for the former shapeshifters

Some cards, like the new Band of Misfits, can play a card that isn't put into play. When you play Band of Misfits, leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play. Normally that will be the same turn's Clean-up. For a Band of Misfits playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the last turn the Duration card has any effects. For a Band of Misfits playing a Throne Room playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the turn the Duration card leaves play. For a Band of Misfits playing a card that can move itself from play, like Mining Village, the Mining Village can't move itself, so Band of Misfits doesn't leave play any earlier than normal. If a Band of Misfits plays multiple Duration cards (e.g., you used Throne Room on it), leave it out until the Clean-up of the last turn that one of them still had effects.

I think this rule is not consistent. It says to leave the BoM as long as you would have left the card in play (if it had entered play). This is accurate for Durations, and for TR playing Durations. But it's not accurate for Mining Village. If Mining Village had entered play, you actually would have trashed it. So then there seems to be an exception to the rule for cards that would have moved from play during the Action phase(?), which is hardly the intention.

So the rule has to be specifically for playing a Duration: If BoM plays a Duration, leave BoM as long as the Duration would have stayed in play. From this it doesn't follow that BoM+TR+Duration makes BoM stay. If you want that, you need an additional rule: If BoM plays a TR playing a Duration, leave BoM as long as the Duration stays in play.

Alternatively it can be a Duration-like rule specifically about Clean-up: BoM stays in play instead of being discarded in Clean-up if it played a card that would have stayed in play at that point. This covers both BoM+Duration and BoM+TR+Duration.

Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #211 on: January 13, 2020, 05:20:07 pm »
+1

2. Tracking for the former shapeshifters

Some cards, like the new Band of Misfits, can play a card that isn't put into play. When you play Band of Misfits, leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play. Normally that will be the same turn's Clean-up. For a Band of Misfits playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the last turn the Duration card has any effects. For a Band of Misfits playing a Throne Room playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the turn the Duration card leaves play. For a Band of Misfits playing a card that can move itself from play, like Mining Village, the Mining Village can't move itself, so Band of Misfits doesn't leave play any earlier than normal. If a Band of Misfits plays multiple Duration cards (e.g., you used Throne Room on it), leave it out until the Clean-up of the last turn that one of them still had effects.

I think this rule is not consistent. It says to leave the BoM as long as you would have left the card in play (if it had entered play). This is accurate for Durations, and for TR playing Durations. But it's not accurate for Mining Village. If Mining Village had entered play, you actually would have trashed it. So then there seems to be an exception to the rule for cards that would have moved from play during the Action phase(?), which is hardly the intention.
I think I'm okay. Obv. "would have" is hand-wavy. The rule is trying to be clear to people without being super-technical. You can say, "if I'd actually put that card into play I would have made whatever decisions and things would be different" and you know it's not what "would have" is talking about there and I bet that's not messing people up.

One thing is to consider the rule as just saying, under what circumstances we leave Band of Misfits out extra-long; it doesn't cause us to discard or trash the Band of Misfits ever. If we're not leaving it in play due to that rule, we're leaving it in play until Clean-up because of the normal rule that stuff stays in play until Clean-up.
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #212 on: January 13, 2020, 06:39:45 pm »
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Right, with the extra clause about Mining Village, nobody's confused. Without it there could be questions, especially about cards like Experiment, since it literally says that BoM leaves when Experiment would leave. (Rephrasing it along the lines I suggested you wouldn't need that extra clause.)

One thing to consider is just making it a rule about BoM playing a Duration directly. This would be the simplest to state and the easiest to understand and we'd avoid tracking situations like in this thread. I understand that with BoM+TR+Duration, you want to have a card to track that "something" was used to play the Duration. But it's similar to TR+TR+Duration; and your original reasoning there was exactly the same, and yet you abandoned that for the sake of simplicity. Maybe I'm missing something but this seems to be the same situation?

Actually now I have a question about that other thread, I'll post it there.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 06:57:28 pm by Jeebus »
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #213 on: January 13, 2020, 10:34:03 pm »
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Right, with the extra clause about Mining Village, nobody's confused. Without it there could be questions, especially about cards like Experiment, since it literally says that BoM leaves when Experiment would leave. (Rephrasing it along the lines I suggested you wouldn't need that extra clause.)

One thing to consider is just making it a rule about BoM playing a Duration directly. This would be the simplest to state and the easiest to understand and we'd avoid tracking situations like in this thread. I understand that with BoM+TR+Duration, you want to have a card to track that "something" was used to play the Duration. But it's similar to TR+TR+Duration; and your original reasoning there was exactly the same, and yet you abandoned that for the sake of simplicity. Maybe I'm missing something but this seems to be the same situation?

Actually now I have a question about that other thread, I'll post it there.

The rule says "leave it in play as long as you would leave the other card it plays in play." It doesn't say "take it out of play as soon as you would take the other card out of play." So, you leave the BoM in play as long as you would leave Experiment or Mining Village in play, and then the rule stops affecting it. But that doesn't mean you discard it then, because there's no rule telling you to do that. Then cleanup comes around, and you discard it, because there is a rule telling you to do that.
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #214 on: January 13, 2020, 11:32:09 pm »
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The rule says "leave it in play as long as you would leave the other card it plays in play." It doesn't say "take it out of play as soon as you would take the other card out of play." So, you leave the BoM in play as long as you would leave Experiment or Mining Village in play, and then the rule stops affecting it. But that doesn't mean you discard it then, because there's no rule telling you to do that. Then cleanup comes around, and you discard it, because there is a rule telling you to do that.

It could be interpreted both ways. Ironically the clause about Mining Village expresses that it's the other way than what you say: The clause says that the reason BoM "doesn't leave play earlier than normal" is that the Mining Village can't move itself, implying that otherwise it would leave play. (Of course it's unclear how exactly it would leave play.)

It's pretty evident that that clause should just be taken out, and instead the rule should focus on what you are saying, along the lines of my second suggestion, which is also was Donald was saying: when do we discard it in Clean-up?

(I still think the best option is what I wrote in my previous post.)

Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #215 on: January 14, 2020, 02:39:59 am »
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(I still think the best option is what I wrote in my previous post.)
I don't want to make it specific to Durations. I changed the Mining Village part.

Quote
Some cards, like the new Band of Misfits, can play a card that isn't put into play. When you play Band of Misfits, leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play. Normally that will be the same turn's Clean-up. For a Band of Misfits playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the last turn the Duration card has any effects. For a Band of Misfits playing a Throne Room playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the turn the Duration card leaves play. For a Band of Misfits playing a card that can move itself from play, like Mining Village, the Mining Village can't move itself, and Band of Misfits would still stay out until Clean-up anyway, due to the normal rule for leaving cards out until Clean-up. If a Band of Misfits plays multiple Duration cards (e.g., you used Throne Room on it), leave it out until the Clean-up of the last turn that one of them still had effects.
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markusin

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #216 on: January 14, 2020, 08:26:37 am »
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It seems to me like the intention was to have Band of Misfits stay out at least until the clean-up phase of the turn it was played. Why not just make that the rule? The whole thing about Mining Village not being able to move itself when played by BoM as justification for not discarding BoM mid-turn seems iffy, because Mining Village would have left play if it was actually in play, just like the duration cards would have stayed in play for a turn if they were actually brought into play.

Edit: No, it actually seems like the intention is to have BoM check to see if it should be discarded only during a cleanup phase. Like, during cleanup, it checks if the card it played would have been discarded during this cleanup or if it would have already been discarded.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 08:29:45 am by markusin »
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #217 on: January 14, 2020, 09:53:10 am »
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I don't want to make it specific to Durations. I changed the Mining Village part.

How do you see it as different to the TR+TR+Duration rule in this respect?

Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #218 on: January 14, 2020, 06:30:13 pm »
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I don't want to make it specific to Durations. I changed the Mining Village part.

How do you see it as different to the TR+TR+Duration rule in this respect?
I don't understand the question. There is no TR+TR+Duration rule; just a FAQ since people will ask rather than work it out.
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #219 on: January 14, 2020, 06:49:55 pm »
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I don't want to make it specific to Durations. I changed the Mining Village part.

How do you see it as different to the TR+TR+Duration rule in this respect?
I don't understand the question. There is no TR+TR+Duration rule; just a FAQ since people will ask rather than work it out.

I meant TR+TR+Duration+Duration.

The rule for TR+TR+Duration+Duration was that you leave both TR's. Then you dropped it, simplifying but also losing some tracking. This seems to be the exact same situation as BoM+TR+Duration. Without a special rule, only the Duration stays out; the BOM is to signify that some card affected the Duration. Dropping this rule would also be gaining simplicity and losing some tracking. So I mean only keep the tracking when BOM plays Duration directly, just like we're only tracking when TR plays Duration directly.

As I said, this would be the simplest to state and the easiest to understand and we'd avoid tracking situations like in that other thread. It would also mean the rule is only needed for BoM, Overlord and Inheritance.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 06:52:06 pm by Jeebus »
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