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Author Topic: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks  (Read 89535 times)

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popsofctown

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #150 on: October 11, 2019, 02:00:05 am »
0

Necromancer is pretty safe from loops from the "turn it facedown" clause.

Guess the zombies it controls are more fully slaves than cards hired from supply piles!
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #151 on: October 11, 2019, 04:37:59 am »
0

So, are the only "Action - Command" cards in the game currently these ones you just listed? I.e., Band of Misfits, Overlord, and Captain can't play each other but can still play every other card that they used to be able to play before this change?
Yes those are the only ones, yes the three cards can't play each other but can play whatever else.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #152 on: October 11, 2019, 04:39:46 am »
+1

It feels like Necromancer should be a Command card. Even though it’s not involved in the infinite loops, it just seems like it should be for consistency.
Necromancer is one of these cards; I didn't give it the Command type because it actually costs something to do that: you might want to e.g. play Band of Misfits to play Necromancer, with no special combo needed. People don't like it when they lose that stuff and I didn't have to take it from them, Necromancer limits how many times you can play it via turning over cards in the trash.

I did make Overlord a Command card for consistency, though it wasn't part of the loops; that cost very little though (you can make it matter by putting e.g. a Training token on BoM).
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 04:46:53 am by Donald X. »
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #153 on: October 11, 2019, 04:45:25 am »
+3

With Inheritance, should Estates gain the Command type as well as the Action type? I’m thinking that would make it more consistent with the other Commands.

One case I’ve thought of where it could matter (no clue if there might be more cases) is if the Inherited card’s pile—say, Conspirator—has emptied, but Estates have not. In that scenario, other Commands could still play a Conspirator by first playing an Estate from the Supply. For most Inherited cards there’s no real benefit, but this allows you to draw a starting hand of four Coppers and one BoM, and still get the +1 Card/+1 Action from Conspirator.
For Inheritance I didn't need to put it on both pieces; not being able to set aside a Command card stops the combos. If you e.g. Inherit Village and play BoM to play Estate, well it's like you played BoM to play Village, which you're allowed to do. Making Estates also a Command card felt more complex and it wasn't essential.

For the online version next week, the loops are stopped; any aesthetic benefits I missed out on can be considered further for when the relevant expansions finally get reprinted. But, the message of the loud voices on the internet was, don't kill any card interaction you don't have to, so I didn't.
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majiponi

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #154 on: October 11, 2019, 05:48:50 am »
+5

So, now every card with the same name has the same ability AND COST, right?

Old rule: I played Quarry via Storyteller, played Necromancer to Zombie-Mason my inherited Estate (cost $0), couldn't gain an Estate (cost $2) from Supply.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #155 on: October 11, 2019, 12:56:03 pm »
+4

So, now every card with the same name has the same ability AND COST, right?

Old rule: I played Quarry via Storyteller, played Necromancer to Zombie-Mason my inherited Estate (cost $0), couldn't gain an Estate (cost $2) from Supply.
Yes; at any given moment, all copies of a card have identical cost / abilities / types.
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mxdata

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #156 on: October 12, 2019, 06:03:16 pm »
0

To avoid "non-Victory non-Command" on Inheritance, I'm dropping non-Victory, which was just there for the old way Inheritance worked.

So, this means that it's now possible to Inherit an Estate as, for example, a Mill?  What was the reason for the old rule where you couldn't do that?  That's something I never understood and seemed weirdly arbitrary to me, but I'm sure there was probably a good reason that I'm not seeing
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scolapasta

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #157 on: October 12, 2019, 06:13:20 pm »
0

To avoid "non-Victory non-Command" on Inheritance, I'm dropping non-Victory, which was just there for the old way Inheritance worked.

So, this means that it's now possible to Inherit an Estate as, for example, a Mill?  What was the reason for the old rule where you couldn't do that?  That's something I never understood and seemed weirdly arbitrary to me, but I'm sure there was probably a good reason that I'm not seeing

Well, before this update, when it gained the abilities and types of the inherited card, it meant that it would also be worth the VP (e.g. an inherited Mill estate would have been worth 2 VP), and I'm assuming the idea was to not allow them to be worth more than their original 1 VP.

Now that it just plays the other card, it would not be worth the additional VP.
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mxdata

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #158 on: October 12, 2019, 07:48:24 pm »
0

To avoid "non-Victory non-Command" on Inheritance, I'm dropping non-Victory, which was just there for the old way Inheritance worked.

So, this means that it's now possible to Inherit an Estate as, for example, a Mill?  What was the reason for the old rule where you couldn't do that?  That's something I never understood and seemed weirdly arbitrary to me, but I'm sure there was probably a good reason that I'm not seeing

Well, before this update, when it gained the abilities and types of the inherited card, it meant that it would also be worth the VP (e.g. an inherited Mill estate would have been worth 2 VP), and I'm assuming the idea was to not allow them to be worth more than their original 1 VP.

Now that it just plays the other card, it would not be worth the additional VP.

But the official FAQ already included a note that an Inherited Estate was still worth 1 VP, so surely that would've guaranteed anyways that it wouldn't take the Inherited card's VP value?
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #159 on: October 12, 2019, 08:32:34 pm »
0

But the official FAQ already included a note that an Inherited Estate was still worth 1 VP, so surely that would've guaranteed anyways that it wouldn't take the Inherited card's VP value?

The FAQ said that because of the "non-Victory card" clause on the card. Without that clause, the FAQ couldn't have said that without contradicting the actual card.

mxdata

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #160 on: October 12, 2019, 10:51:05 pm »
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But the official FAQ already included a note that an Inherited Estate was still worth 1 VP, so surely that would've guaranteed anyways that it wouldn't take the Inherited card's VP value?

The FAQ said that because of the "non-Victory card" clause on the card. Without that clause, the FAQ couldn't have said that without contradicting the actual card.

I just took that as a clarification that the victory points weren't part of what changed - it takes on the abilities and types of the chosen card, but not the point value, since it doesn't actually become that card - it's still an Estate, it's just an Estate that can do stuff now.  Is the argument here that the VP are an "ability" which would otherwise have been Inherited?
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #161 on: October 13, 2019, 01:38:31 am »
0

But the official FAQ already included a note that an Inherited Estate was still worth 1 VP, so surely that would've guaranteed anyways that it wouldn't take the Inherited card's VP value?

The FAQ said that because of the "non-Victory card" clause on the card. Without that clause, the FAQ couldn't have said that without contradicting the actual card.

I just took that as a clarification that the victory points weren't part of what changed - it takes on the abilities and types of the chosen card, but not the point value, since it doesn't actually become that card - it's still an Estate, it's just an Estate that can do stuff now.  Is the argument here that the VP are an "ability" which would otherwise have been Inherited?
scolapasta and Jeebus have it right. Inheritance said non-VP because otherwise it would have given you any VP that e.g. Mill and Island had. Whatever cards do is an ability; it's clearer when it's e.g. "1 VP per 10 cards you have," but also applies when it's "1 VP."
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crj

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #162 on: October 13, 2019, 08:20:07 am »
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I accept this is a digression, but why is Inheritance once per game? Just to deal with the ambiguity concerning what would happen to the previous set-aside card, or for some aspect of game balance I've never appreciated?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #163 on: October 13, 2019, 09:50:15 am »
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I hate to say it; but the Command type is really reminding me of the Substance keyword from MTG. I’m not sure it seems good to just invent a new keyword in order to make certain cards work like this.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #164 on: October 13, 2019, 01:10:48 pm »
+6

I accept this is a digression, but why is Inheritance once per game? Just to deal with the ambiguity concerning what would happen to the previous set-aside card, or for some aspect of game balance I've never appreciated?
When I first printed out Inheritance, it did not say once-per-game. After some games with it, LastFootnote pointed out that you could e.g. Inherit Dungeon, play an Estate, then that turn buy Inheritance again and Inherit a non-Duration card. What happens to the Estate? There were a few weird situations like that, and once-per-game got rid of them.

With the new wording, once-per-game protects us from you Inheriting something, then Inheriting Estate.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 05:52:46 pm by Donald X. »
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #165 on: October 13, 2019, 01:27:00 pm »
+11

I hate to say it; but the Command type is really reminding me of the Substance keyword from MTG. I’m not sure it seems good to just invent a new keyword in order to make certain cards work like this.
I was hoping you'd post a better fix; I gave you a lot of time. You let me down, GendoIkari! And however silly I'm being, it's also true; you did have a chance to offer a solution.

My next best fix was to say "printed cost" on these cards; you could only Inherit something with a printed cost of up to $4. I like that fine, but some people screamed that they'd hate that. What fun is Inheritance if it isn't a combo with Bridge? That seems ridiculous to me but multiple people felt that way. Stef's favored approach was to say that a card can't play another card while the first card is already playing it, unless the card to be played has moved. You may be wondering why it refers to both cards and cares about moving and well, that's the only way it could work. It seemed like that was an awful rule to try to make people learn, and that no-one was ever possibly learning it.

The actual fix used minimized the number of interactions lost, and puts the answers right on the cards, once they're actually reprinted. So far the downsides are disappointing you personally, and some people saying, wait why not Necromancer too (it's to not have people sad about lost interactions guys).

I imagine no-one else felt like they had to devote as much time to this as I did, but a bunch of people had the chance, and some of them did chime in, on Stef's playtest discord and my playtesting discord. "You can't play a card you're already playing" was LastFootnote's suggestion. Ingix found lots of edge cases to spoil various approaches. As he noted, it was easy to fix the loops; the hard part was fixing them while not messing up other situations. You say e.g. "You can't play a card you're already playing" and then there's, now you can't Captain to play Throne to play another Captain to play Throne because it's the same Throne you're in the middle of playing, and no-one's ever catching that; or, but wait now I can do the Mandarin thing and lose a Crown in my deck and draw a Crown and not know if it's the same one and so not know if I can play it or not.

Feel free to just ban all of the relevant cards from your games, which fixes all of the issues with no errata needed.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #166 on: October 13, 2019, 02:27:58 pm »
0

I hate to say it; but the Command type is really reminding me of the Substance keyword from MTG. I’m not sure it seems good to just invent a new keyword in order to make certain cards work like this.
I was hoping you'd post a better fix; I gave you a lot of time. You let me down, GendoIkari! And however silly I'm being, it's also true; you did have a chance to offer a solution.


You're a far better game designer than I (granted that's not saying much since I'm not in any way, shape, or form a game designer!), but I did suggest simply adding "may" to Band of Misfits, which to me would be a simpler and cleaner solution.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #167 on: October 13, 2019, 02:38:04 pm »
+2

I did suggest simply adding "may" to Band of Misfits, which to me would be a simpler and cleaner solution.
That gets rid of "I hate this mandatory loop" but not "I hate this loop." For me it was never enough.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #168 on: October 13, 2019, 02:41:32 pm »
0

I hate to say it; but the Command type is really reminding me of the Substance keyword from MTG. I’m not sure it seems good to just invent a new keyword in order to make certain cards work like this.
I was hoping you'd post a better fix; I gave you a lot of time. You let me down, GendoIkari! And however silly I'm being, it's also true; you did have a chance to offer a solution.


You're a far better game designer than I (granted that's not saying much since I'm not in any way, shape, or form a game designer!), but I did suggest simply adding "may" to Band of Misfits, which to me would be a simpler and cleaner solution.

I believe the intention wasn't just to avoid the mandatory infinite loops, but to avoid all possible infinite loops involving these cards. Of course, there's still other infinite loops, but they are way more complicated and involve enough cards that they will virtually never be possible in a random game.

Edit: I typed this before I saw DXV's response. It confirmed my suspicions.
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mxdata

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #169 on: October 13, 2019, 03:30:37 pm »
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But the official FAQ already included a note that an Inherited Estate was still worth 1 VP, so surely that would've guaranteed anyways that it wouldn't take the Inherited card's VP value?

The FAQ said that because of the "non-Victory card" clause on the card. Without that clause, the FAQ couldn't have said that without contradicting the actual card.

I just took that as a clarification that the victory points weren't part of what changed - it takes on the abilities and types of the chosen card, but not the point value, since it doesn't actually become that card - it's still an Estate, it's just an Estate that can do stuff now.  Is the argument here that the VP are an "ability" which would otherwise have been Inherited?
scolapasta and Jeebus have it right. Inheritance said non-VP because otherwise it would have given you any VP that e.g. Mill and Island had. Whatever cards do is an ability; it's clearer when it's e.g. "1 VP per 10 cards you have," but also applies when it's "1 VP."
Hunh, interesting.  I'd always thought of that as simply what the card is worth rather than something the card "does".  Ironic that I discover my understanding was wrong just when it ceases to be relevant!

I doubt it'll ever be relevant, but would that mean that, e.g., gold being worth 3 coins also counts as an ability?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #170 on: October 13, 2019, 03:48:49 pm »
+1

I did suggest simply adding "may" to Band of Misfits, which to me would be a simpler and cleaner solution.
That gets rid of "I hate this mandatory loop" but not "I hate this loop." For me it was never enough.

I may have missed it, but I didn't see people complaining about the loop; only about the mandatory loop due to the fact that it created a hole in the rules where there was no correct defined behavior. Did people complain about this one more than they do about infinite Moat, or the various infinite Villa shenanigans?
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #171 on: October 13, 2019, 03:52:24 pm »
+2

Hunh, interesting.  I'd always thought of that as simply what the card is worth rather than something the card "does".  Ironic that I discover my understanding was wrong just when it ceases to be relevant!

I doubt it'll ever be relevant, but would that mean that, e.g., gold being worth 3 coins also counts as an ability?

Yeah, of course it does. Gold could also validly be printed as a treasure card that said "3" in a circle below a picture instead of the way the card looks now (e.g., it would look like Cache without the below-the-line text). Wouldn't you say Cache's ability is that it generates 3 coins when you play it? Gold is the same thing.
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #172 on: October 13, 2019, 04:13:32 pm »
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So now that there is a new type, I have a suggestion for all five cards, because I think it would be better and cleaner if they worked the same way.

As I said earlier in this thread, I think they should all say non-Duration, or we can just live with the lack of tracking for these cards. But since Donald is obviously going to stick to the special tracking rules for these cards, I think it would be better to make them all consistent.

The new rule ("2. Tracking for the former shapeshifters") mentions all cards - Band of Misfits, Overlord, Inheritance, Necromancer and Captain - but actually doesn't currently apply to the last two, since they already say "non-Duration" and so cause no tracking problem. This rule also presents the challenge (mentioned earlier) of defining which cards it applies to without including cards like Throne Room. This can be fixed with awkward wordings.

My suggestion is to add the Command type to Necromancer, and change Inheritance so that Estates also get the Command type; and then drop "non-Duration" from Captain and Necromancer. Now all five cards work the same way, they can play Durations with the exact same tracking, and they can't play each other. And the tracking rule can simply refer to "Command cards".

markusin

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #173 on: October 13, 2019, 05:13:44 pm »
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I had mentioned this in the discord, but does Scepter qualify as a Command type? The only reason it doesn't loop is because it can't play itself due to being a treasure and no other command cards can play it. Effectively, Scepter treats the play area as an "infinite supply". If ever a card was released that can replay a treasure in play or that can put Scepter's abilities on an action, a loop would be created.

Maybe it's better to cross that bridge if it ever gets there, but I do want Scepter to get recognition as a potential problem card that in its current form limits (albeit narrow) design space.

Edit: in a sense, Scepter presents precedence for protecting against unwanted loops through use of types. There are no simple "Command" loops with Scepter because none of the other "Command" cards can play a treasure, and Scepter is only a treasure. So, Scepter fails to make the "whitelist" of any Command cards by virtue of its type. The "Command" type also allows type to protect from loops, except does so by allowing cards to "Blacklist" Command cards rather than somehow excluding them from another Command card's whitelist.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 05:20:20 pm by markusin »
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #174 on: October 13, 2019, 05:20:01 pm »
0

I had mentioned this in the discord, but does Scepter qualify as a Command type? The only reason it doesn't loop is because it can't play itself due to being a treasure and no other command cards can play it. Effectively, Scepter treats the play area as an "infinite supply". If ever a card was released that can replay a treasure in play or that can put Scepter's abilities on an action, a loop would be created.

Maybe it's better to cross that bridge if it ever gets there, but I do want Scepter to get recognition as a potential problem card that in its current form limits (albeit narrow) design space.

Command cards seem to be cards that override the default rule of moving the played card into play. If Scepter is a Command card, then all kinds of cards should be, like Royal Carriage and even Throne Room and Vassal.
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