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Author Topic: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks  (Read 34833 times)

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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #75 on: September 27, 2019, 01:42:58 pm »
+2

Why can't you change it back to "lose track"? Have you printed this somewhere?
No; I posted it on the 4 sites, that's it. I could still say, you know what, let's call it lose-track still. I guess I'll just see what people actually call it.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #76 on: September 27, 2019, 01:43:38 pm »
0

About the new "stop-moving" rules. Read literally, since it doesn't mention keeping or losing track, it now seems that a card that is moved and then put back, CAN be moved. This would be a change from the old lose-track rule. For instance Prince a Duplicate; start of turn it goes to the Tavern, then call it that same turn, Prince sets it aside.
I will re-read it and edit it if that's so; once a card moves, that's that.
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2019, 01:45:20 pm »
0

"You can gain non-Supply cards when called out"

I'm not a fan of this change, because it creates an extra rule that doesn't seem to be needed. Before you had to know that "gain" meant from Supply except if stated otherwise. "From its pile" is stating it otherwise, so to me it's sufficient. We still need that rule because of cards like e.g. Noble Brigand, Exorcist and Tournament. But now we need this other rule too.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2019, 06:12:00 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #78 on: September 27, 2019, 01:48:11 pm »
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The main change here is that previously you'd lose track of something if it were covered up in your discard pile, and now you don't. So for example if you Replace an Estate into Skulk, previously you would lose track of the Skulk when you gained a Gold and covered it up, but now you won't, you will put the Skulk onto your deck.

I'm pretty sure using Replace as the example here doesn't work, since it top-decks the Skulk.

Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2019, 01:49:14 pm »
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The cards that were untouched: Acting Troupe, Farmers' Market, Feast, Tragic Hero, Wine Merchant, Encampment, Experiment, Island. These are all super-good with BoM/Overlord/Inheritance now (except Island) - in addition to with Necromancer/Captain.
The idea was to only change as much as I had to. Pillage and Embargo are attacky; Death Cart gets absurd and is in the same set as Band of Misfits.

Some cards used to be normal with Bom/Overlord/Inheritance, and useless with Necro/Captain, but are now useless with all: Mining Village, Pixie, Treasure Map, Urchin, Knights, Page, Peasant, Distant Lands, Prince (only gimped: Raze, Small Castle)
(Obv. Distant Lands and Small Castle can't be played with Inheritance, and Prince requires a lot of cost reduction)
Obv. some of those "useless" things have use, e.g. Mining Village when what you want is a village; and Knights are now scary with former shapeshifters, not useless at all.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2019, 01:50:23 pm »
+2

The main change here is that previously you'd lose track of something if it were covered up in your discard pile, and now you don't. So for example if you Replace an Estate into Skulk, previously you would lose track of the Skulk when you gained a Gold and covered it up, but now you won't, you will put the Skulk onto your deck.

I'm pretty sure using Replace as the example here doesn't work, since it top-decks the Skulk.
This is a real example. Replace first gains the card to your discard pile; you stop and gain a Gold for Skulk. Then Replace tries to topdeck Skulk. Previously it couldn't, now it can.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2019, 01:52:34 pm »
+1

"You can gain non-Supply cards when called out"

I'm not a fan of this change, because it creates an extra rule that doesn't seem to be needed. Before you had no know that "gain" meant from Supply except if statet otherwise. "From its pile" is stating it otherwise, so to me it's sufficient. We still need that rule because of cards like e.g. Noble Brigand, Exorcist and Tournament. But now we need this other rule too.
I felt like "from its pile" wasn't a great way to communicate that it actually worked, and no-one is going to think that "gain an Imp" somehow doesn't get you one. "From its pile" needed to be explained somewhere, and I can as easily explain not saying it.

Yes Exorcist and Tournament gain multiple cards and still need something. Noble Brigand gains from the trash and says so, that's fine already.
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2019, 01:56:21 pm »
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Obv. some of those "useless" things have use, e.g. Mining Village when what you want is a village; and Knights are now scary with former shapeshifters, not useless at all.

Knights were in the wrong list! I meant to include them with the cards that are now super-good, like Tragic Hero.
Yeah, those other cards are not useless, it was just a shorthand, maybe not the best term to use. But an important use of them is not available.

I'm pretty sure using Replace as the example here doesn't work, since it top-decks the Skulk.
This is a real example. Replace first gains the card to your discard pile; you stop and gain a Gold for Skulk. Then Replace tries to topdeck Skulk. Previously it couldn't, now it can.

Whoops. Forgot that Replace doesn't gain to your deck.

Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2019, 02:03:29 pm »
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2. Tracking for the former shapeshifters

These rules apply to all of the cards that play cards without putting them into play: currently, Band of Misfits, Overlord, Inheritance, Necromancer, and Captain.

Other cards do that too, like Throne Room (with Mining Village for instance). Of course you are listing the cards, but since there can be more in the future, I think it would be better to be more specific so that Throne Room etc (or future similar cards) can't be included. So it's not just cards that play cards without putting them into play, but cards that tell you to play a card without moving it into play (or something like that).

Gubump

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2019, 02:20:27 pm »
+1

Oh boy, huge changes in rules.

As others have noted, Death Cart, Embargo and Pillage are changed, but there are many others that were untouched. Previously those three cards worked normally with BoM/Overlord/Inheritance, and were super-good with Necromancer/Captain. To avoid too much super-goodness, Donald changed them, so now they are useless with BoM/Overlord/Inheritance AND with Necromancer/Captain (except Death Cart is gimped but not useless).

The cards that were untouched: Acting Troupe, Farmers' Market, Feast, Knights, Tragic Hero, Wine Merchant, Encampment, Experiment, Island. These are all super-good with BoM/Overlord/Inheritance now (except Island) - in addition to with Necromancer/Captain.

Some cards used to be normal with Bom/Overlord/Inheritance, and useless with Necro/Captain, but are now useless with all: Mining Village, Pixie, Treasure Map, Urchin, Page, Peasant, Distant Lands, Prince (only gimped: Raze, Small Castle)
(Obv. Distant Lands and Small Castle can't be played with Inheritance, and Prince requires a lot of cost reduction)

EDIT: Knights were in the wrong list!

Distant Lands was also useless with BoM and Overlord previously, because you would have put your BoM/Overlord on your Tavern mat, removing it from play and changing it back to BoM/Overlord, thus meaning that you remove a BoM/Overlord from circulation for no benefit whatsoever.
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2019, 02:30:20 pm »
0

Lastly, I'm not a fan of the new rule for tracking these cards. It seems to be a regression to the confusion of former rules for tracking TR + Duration and TR + TR + Duration.

Now we have very different rules for TR + Duration and BoM + Duration. TR is simple and clean, it stays as long as the Duration stays. But with BoM, we have to look at when the Duration or TR would have been discarded.

Also, this rule only applies to BoM, Overlord and Inheritance. Captain and Necromancer already don't work with Durations. So it's a special rule for only 3 cards. I think it would be better to add "non-Duration" to those cards, or just live with the lack of tracking.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 09:13:32 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #86 on: September 27, 2019, 02:35:34 pm »
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Distant Lands was also useless with BoM and Overlord previously, because you would have put your BoM/Overlord on your Tavern mat, removing it from play and changing it back to BoM/Overlord, thus meaning that you remove a BoM/Overlord from circulation for no benefit whatsoever.

You're right, I was confusing BoM with Inheritance ("yours" vs. "in play"). Also, there are many more cards that are now gimped a lot of course, namely all the ones that say "while this is in play". Also Herbalist.

Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #87 on: September 27, 2019, 04:40:22 pm »
+1

Lastly, I'm not a fan of the new rule for tracking these cards. It seems to be a regression to the confusion of former rules for tracking TR + Duration and TR + TR + Duration.

Now we have very different rules for TR + Duration and BoM + Duration. TR is simple and clean, it stays as long as the Duration stays. But with BoM, we have to look at when the the Duration or TR would have been discarded.

Also, this rule only applies to BoM, Overlord and Inheritance. Captain and Necromancer already don't work with Durations. So it's a special rule for only 3 cards. I think it would be better to add "non-Duration" to those cards, or just live with the lack of tracking.
I made a card, Band of Misfits. It was a mistake but there it is in Dark Ages. The rules have to support it somehow; even if I someday replace it, the rules have to support it.

I have supported it. My options for BoM plus Duration was to either say non-Duration on BoM, or provide tracking. I talked with other people about these changes, and they were against adding non-Duration there. And I didn't have to so I didn't.

The rule for BoM is not a rule to learn in general; it's specific to the former shapeshifters. BoM will have a long FAQ; again the card was a mistake but I have to handle it.
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #88 on: September 27, 2019, 04:52:36 pm »
0

The rule for BoM is not a rule to learn in general; it's specific to the former shapeshifters. BoM will have a long FAQ; again the card was a mistake but I have to handle it.

Right, hopefully the specific rules for BoM will be much less than before, and I'm pretty sure that will be the case. (Although in my rules document I have to somehow include all the rules for the former versions too. :( )

popsofctown

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #89 on: September 27, 2019, 04:54:26 pm »
+2

I don't think Band of Misfits was a mistake.  Well that sentence is wrong, I didn't have bacon for breakfast today, and that was a mistake, and I'd be very mad at DXV if he proffered an opinion on whether it was.  But what I mean to say is even if it's a mistake for DXV's goals, the card was really exciting for me when I first saw it, and fun to play with in the games I played, Dark Ages being one of very few paper sets I own.  "This is that card" was such silly fun.  "This plays some of other card" wouldn't have given me the absurd abstract art joy and may have required more explaining to my family. 
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #90 on: September 27, 2019, 06:44:13 pm »
0

I don't think Band of Misfits was a mistake. [snipped semantics] ...even if it's a mistake for DXV's goals, the card was really exciting for me when I first saw it, and fun to play with in the games I played, Dark Ages being one of very few paper sets I own.  "This is that card" was such silly fun.  "This plays some of other card" wouldn't have given me the absurd abstract art joy and may have required more explaining to my family. 
I second this.
BOM/Overlord/Inheritance are some of my top favorite cards (& card-shaped thing).
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 06:46:35 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #91 on: September 27, 2019, 07:24:12 pm »
+3

I don't think Band of Misfits was a mistake.  Well that sentence is wrong, I didn't have bacon for breakfast today, and that was a mistake, and I'd be very mad at DXV if he proffered an opinion on whether it was.  But what I mean to say is even if it's a mistake for DXV's goals, the card was really exciting for me when I first saw it, and fun to play with in the games I played, Dark Ages being one of very few paper sets I own.  "This is that card" was such silly fun.  "This plays some of other card" wouldn't have given me the absurd abstract art joy and may have required more explaining to my family. 
We can't run the experiment to see what joy the errata'd version would have brought, but I wasn't saying it was a mistake to not already have the errata in the first version (though I sure bet it would have produced about the same amount of joy; it's still the card that can do all those other things the cards on the table can do). The mistake was doing the card. I could have waited years on it, made a version of the concept when I had one that worked. That slot could have just been some other card. As always, it's not "Band of Misfits vs. nothing," it's "Band of Misfits vs. whatever else." Whatever else might have been great.

Band of Misfits left Dark Ages for having rules problems. I put it back in thinking, what, it's fun, how many more expansions will there be. A bunch more, it turns out. The rules problems cause endless questions and confusing situations. It's great if people like the card; the move was to not do it. Just before Dark Ages came out, there was no Band of Misfits, and people didn't say, man why do I even play this game, not enough excitement, where's my shapeshifting card.

I continually make cards that try to break the rules in whatever new way, risking problems. I do this because maybe you get something cool. And it can work out to just having good times; I don't regret all those cards. But shapeshifters make the game rules not work, create undefinable behavior. There are different approaches possible to fixing them (e.g., not letting you play a card if you can't put it into play kills majiponi's problem situation, though it also kills e.g. throning one-shots), but with piles of expansions, the move was to change as little as possible.
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #92 on: September 28, 2019, 01:58:25 pm »
0

Since Estates are now actions in the supply it opens up the inifnite Captain combos:

1. Reduce the cost of Captain
2. Inherit Captain
3. Play Estate as Captain
4. Play Captain as Estate
5. Goto 3.

It's not too rare, you only need Inheritance, Captain, and one of { Bridge, Highway, Quarry, Tournament, Ferry, Bridge Troll, or Inventor }. Previously you need four cards as it required Ferry + another cost reducer.

You can also do it with BoM, but it's not as good.

Another infinite combo:
1. Inherit BoM
2. Play BoM or Estate (which plays BoM)
3. Play Estate from the Supply with BoM
4. Repeat
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crj

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #93 on: September 28, 2019, 02:18:41 pm »
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That's not interesting, though, because each time round the loop leaves you in the same state as the previous. The Captain loops accumulate an unbounded amount of benefit.

You might as well just keep reacting to the same Attack with the same Moat, for all the good it does you.
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Jeebus

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #94 on: September 28, 2019, 03:02:53 pm »
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Yeah, only with the extreme corner case of getting unlimited $ with a combination of Champion and Diadem.

Gubump

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #95 on: September 28, 2019, 05:23:55 pm »
0

That's not interesting, though, because each time round the loop leaves you in the same state as the previous. The Captain loops accumulate an unbounded amount of benefit.

You might as well just keep reacting to the same Attack with the same Moat, for all the good it does you.

Unless you have one of your Adventures tokens on the BoM pile.
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #96 on: September 28, 2019, 09:43:23 pm »
0

About the new "stop-moving" rules. Read literally, since it doesn't mention keeping or losing track, it now seems that a card that is moved and then put back, CAN be moved. This would be a change from the old lose-track rule. For instance Prince a Duplicate; start of turn it goes to the Tavern, then call it that same turn, Prince sets it aside.

I don't think Prince-Duplicate is an example of that though. A called Duplicate is not actually in play, so it hasn't really returned to its previous state.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #97 on: September 28, 2019, 10:45:17 pm »
+1

About the new "stop-moving" rules. Read literally, since it doesn't mention keeping or losing track, it now seems that a card that is moved and then put back, CAN be moved. This would be a change from the old lose-track rule. For instance Prince a Duplicate; start of turn it goes to the Tavern, then call it that same turn, Prince sets it aside.

I don't think Prince-Duplicate is an example of that though. A called Duplicate is not actually in play, so it hasn't really returned to its previous state.

From the Official Rules wiki section on Reserve cards (therefore also probably from the Adventures rulebook):
Quote
Cards on Tavern mats are not in play, but Reserve cards that have been called this turn are in play.
So, for example, Pilgrimage cannot gain copies of cards on the Tavern mat, but can gain copies of Reserve cards called into play the same turn.
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #98 on: September 29, 2019, 03:06:48 am »
0

I know this may not be appropriate to say it here, but I really want an errata to Haunted Woods. I don't like how it utterly screws Night Cards, and it also doesn't really fits flavour wise. A possible change would be: "Untill your next turn, when any player buys a card, they reveal their hand and put their non-Night cards onto their deck in any order"
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #99 on: September 29, 2019, 10:06:25 am »
0

I know this may not be appropriate to say it here, but I really want an errata to Haunted Woods. I don't like how it utterly screws Night Cards, and it also doesn't really fits flavour wise. A possible change would be: "Untill your next turn, when any player buys a card, they reveal their hand and put their non-Night cards onto their deck in any order"

i thought that was the whole point of haunted woods
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