Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9  All

Author Topic: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks  (Read 34879 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8872
  • Respect: +9652
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2019, 11:52:19 pm »
+2

Can you explain how Tunnel works with the new rules? I remember someone saying that you can't use Tunnel's Reaction over and over because it gets covered up by the first Gold gained.


From what I remember last time this was discussed; Tunnel can only be used once because “when X, do why” only lets you do Y once each time X happens. This is the same for reaction cards as well as non-reaction things with the same wording (Goons in play when you buy a card).

An exception to that rule exists for revealing reactions from your hand; this is why you can reveal Moat more than once if an attack is played. That exception is necessary because you wouldn’t be able to prove if you were revealing the same Moat or a different Moat the second time.

So Lose Track was never necessary for Tunnel to work properly. You could only reveal it once because it was only discarded once.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 11:53:34 pm by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8872
  • Respect: +9652
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2019, 11:58:19 pm »
0

The new text just says play the (Duration) card but leave it in the supply. To me this implies that you simply don't get the benefit at the start of your next turn(s) that you normally would.

Why would it imply that? Duration cards have never needed to be in play to give you the next turn benefit. The effect has always been set up when the card is played, what happens to it after that has never mattered... this has always been the case when a Procession played a Duration, for example.

BoM staying in play follows the same rules for Throne Room staying in play when it plays a Duration. Since the beginning of Dominion durations, there has always been a rule that says that a card that plays a Duration stays in play as long as that Duration has something to do.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Sparafucile

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 87
  • Respect: +138
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2019, 12:02:18 am »
+1

Any chance we could get an errata update pack with the modified wordings for the most important changed cards?    I can’t afford to buy all of the expansions again ...

Heck - I would buy an annual update pack to keep the most update rules in my set ...
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5830
  • Respect: +23487
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2019, 12:06:20 am »
+4

Any chance we could get an errata update pack with the modified wordings for the most important changed cards?    I can’t afford to buy all of the expansions again ...

Heck - I would buy an annual update pack to keep the most update rules in my set ...
So far there is no plan for an update pack. It doesn't sound like a very good product, though a few people would want it.

I should repeat, as I often say, that of course people should play by whatever house rules they want, including ignoring errata. I have to make the rules work though and this is what I have done there.
Logged

scolapasta

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 395
  • Respect: +387
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2019, 12:23:44 am »
+2

So far there is no plan for an update pack. It doesn't sound like a very good product, though a few people would want it.

Instead of an update pack, what about selling them as promos through BGG? (similar to Pathfinding)
Logged
Feel free to join us at scolapasta's cards for discussion on any of my custom cards.

scolapasta

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 395
  • Respect: +387
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2019, 12:31:31 am »
0

2. Tracking for the former shapeshifters

Some cards, like the new Band of Misfits, can play a card that isn't put into play. When you play Band of Misfits, leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play. Normally that will be the same turn's Clean-up. For a Band of Misfits playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the last turn the Duration card has any effects. For a Band of Misfits playing a Throne Room playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the turn the Duration card leaves play. For a Band of Misfits playing a card that can move itself from play, like Mining Village, the Mining Village can't move itself, so Band of Misfits doesn't leave play any earlier than normal. If a Band of Misfits plays multiple Duration cards (e.g., you used Throne Room on it), leave it out until the Clean-up of the last turn that one of them still had effects.

Quick question on BoM / TR vs TR / BoM interaction:

Scenario 1: BoM playing TR playing Duration - all cards stay out until Duration gets cleaned up

Scenario 2: TR playing BoM playing Duration (as one of its two plays) - TR gets cleaned up that turn, BoM and Duration stay out until Duration gets cleaned up

Is that correct? (if so, I'm now imagining a larger TR / BoM / TR / BoM ... chain. :p)

Logged
Feel free to join us at scolapasta's cards for discussion on any of my custom cards.

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5830
  • Respect: +23487
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2019, 12:42:52 am »
+2

Instead of an update pack, what about selling them as promos through BGG? (similar to Pathfinding)
That sounds more possible at least. Though there a bunch of them. Even just the shapeshifters not counting Lantern is 3 cards (which is to say, 23, since there's only one Inheritance but there are randomizers). And you know, we give away the promos; BGG makes a profit on them, but not us. It's to support BGG.

If I ever did a Dark Ages 2E, I could just replace Band of Misfits / Procession / Pillage with related new cards, new cards being what's exciting to get in an update pack.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 01:25:59 pm by Donald X. »
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5830
  • Respect: +23487
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2019, 12:44:26 am »
0

2. Tracking for the former shapeshifters

Some cards, like the new Band of Misfits, can play a card that isn't put into play. When you play Band of Misfits, leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play. Normally that will be the same turn's Clean-up. For a Band of Misfits playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the last turn the Duration card has any effects. For a Band of Misfits playing a Throne Room playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the turn the Duration card leaves play. For a Band of Misfits playing a card that can move itself from play, like Mining Village, the Mining Village can't move itself, so Band of Misfits doesn't leave play any earlier than normal. If a Band of Misfits plays multiple Duration cards (e.g., you used Throne Room on it), leave it out until the Clean-up of the last turn that one of them still had effects.

Quick question on BoM / TR vs TR / BoM interaction:

Scenario 1: BoM playing TR playing Duration - all cards stay out until Duration gets cleaned up

Scenario 2: TR playing BoM playing Duration (as one of its two plays) - TR gets cleaned up that turn, BoM and Duration stay out until Duration gets cleaned up

Is that correct? (if so, I'm now imagining a larger TR / BoM / TR / BoM ... chain. :p)
1: The Throne is never in play of course, but otherwise yes.
2: Yes.
Logged

dbclick

  • Coppersmith
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 48
  • Shuffle iT Username: dbclick
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2019, 02:43:55 am »
+3

Wikified:
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Dominion_2019_Errata_and_Rules_Tweaks
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Stop-Moving_rule (needs more info like the old lose-track page - which should be left in-tact for posterity and those with physical cards).

I also edited the card text on each changed card's page, but there are no official Card Notes for the new changes. I may propose some unofficial ones later (and leave the official ones in a separate section until new printings occur).
I'm also not sure where to best integrate the other new rules across the board (maybe best to reference as needed from particular card pages).

EDIT: I added unofficial FAQs for the new versions of the 3 main modified cards. BoM and Overlord got shorter. Inheritance got longer (but there are fewer strange cases and needed clarifications, so it's for the best).
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 04:46:39 am by dbclick »
Logged

chipperMDW

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 312
  • Respect: +676
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2019, 03:41:46 am »
+3

5. Costs don't go below $0.

The cost in $ of a card can't go below $0.

It might be worth it to point out that there is still the concept of a negative coin cost that comes up when you Develop Coppers.
Logged

dbclick

  • Coppersmith
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 48
  • Shuffle iT Username: dbclick
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2019, 04:08:25 am »
+2

Question: Does Inheriting something change the type of the Estate pile to Action - Victory during your turns as well (which has implications for other events and Teacher, etc.)? I don't think so, but just wanted to verify.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5830
  • Respect: +23487
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2019, 04:39:12 am »
+1

Question: Does Inheriting something change the type of the Estate pile to Action - Victory during your turns as well (which has implications for other events and Teacher, etc.)? I don't think so, but just wanted to verify.
No. Normally you go by the randomizer card. Estate once had one for some reason and now does not. But, the "pile" is still always the printed Estate.
Logged

spineflu

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 679
  • Shuffle iT Username: spineflu
  • +1 Coffers, +1 Respect
  • Respect: +406
    • View Profile
    • my instagram, where i paint things
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2019, 09:26:03 am »
+1

Instead of an update pack, what about selling them as promos through BGG? (similar to Pathfinding)
That sounds more possible at least. Though there a bunch of them. Even just the shapeshifters not counting Lantern is 3 cards. And you know, we give away the promos; BGG makes a profit on them, but not us. It's to support BGG.

If I ever did a Dark Ages 2E, I could just replace Band of Misfits / Procession / Pillage with related new cards, new cards being what's exciting to get in an update pack.

Could you do it as a print-on-demand type thing (via GameCrafter or DriveThruCards or whoever)? I know FFG did their Game of Thrones miniexpansions this way; makes it so you don't have to estimate how many to make - they're made to order, like pizza*.


*$5 hot-n-readys notwithstanding.

trivialknot

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 699
  • Respect: +1074
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2019, 10:55:20 am »
+2

It seems like with the new Inheritance rule, it's no longer necessary to restrict to non-victory cards.  I suppose you don't want to change what it does any more than necessary, but we might house-rule it so we can inherit Islands and Mills, if it ever matters.

The stop-moving rule is an improvement.  I was explaining the errata to my partner, and he was incredulous at the pre-errata interaction between Death Cart and Summon.
Logged

majiponi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 615
  • Respect: +506
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2019, 10:58:55 am »
0

I played BoM as Fishing Village.
Jenny bought the last Fishing Village

The tracking issue still remains, I suppose.
Logged

SSLY

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Shuffle iT Username: SSLY
  • aka Seesaw
  • Respect: +27
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2019, 11:08:21 am »
+1

2. Tracking for the former shapeshifters

Some cards, like the new Band of Misfits, can play a card that isn't put into play. When you play Band of Misfits, leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play. Normally that will be the same turn's Clean-up. For a Band of Misfits playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the last turn the Duration card has any effects. For a Band of Misfits playing a Throne Room playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the turn the Duration card leaves play. For a Band of Misfits playing a card that can move itself from play, like Mining Village, the Mining Village can't move itself, so Band of Misfits doesn't leave play any earlier than normal. If a Band of Misfits plays multiple Duration cards (e.g., you used Throne Room on it), leave it out until the Clean-up of the last turn that one of them still had effects.

Quick question on BoM / TR vs TR / BoM interaction:

Scenario 1: BoM playing TR playing Duration - all cards stay out until Duration gets cleaned up

Scenario 2: TR playing BoM playing Duration (as one of its two plays) - TR gets cleaned up that turn, BoM and Duration stay out until Duration gets cleaned up

Is that correct? (if so, I'm now imagining a larger TR / BoM / TR / BoM ... chain. :p)
1: The Throne is never in play of course, but otherwise yes.
2: Yes.

you BoM a TR playing Durations, then Bonfire the Durations. the BoM still stay in play until the Durations finish all effects, right?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 11:09:39 am by SSLY »
Logged

dbclick

  • Coppersmith
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 48
  • Shuffle iT Username: dbclick
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2019, 11:22:54 am »
0

2. Tracking for the former shapeshifters

Some cards, like the new Band of Misfits, can play a card that isn't put into play. When you play Band of Misfits, leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play. Normally that will be the same turn's Clean-up. For a Band of Misfits playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the last turn the Duration card has any effects. For a Band of Misfits playing a Throne Room playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the turn the Duration card leaves play. For a Band of Misfits playing a card that can move itself from play, like Mining Village, the Mining Village can't move itself, so Band of Misfits doesn't leave play any earlier than normal. If a Band of Misfits plays multiple Duration cards (e.g., you used Throne Room on it), leave it out until the Clean-up of the last turn that one of them still had effects.

Quick question on BoM / TR vs TR / BoM interaction:

Scenario 1: BoM playing TR playing Duration - all cards stay out until Duration gets cleaned up

Scenario 2: TR playing BoM playing Duration (as one of its two plays) - TR gets cleaned up that turn, BoM and Duration stay out until Duration gets cleaned up

Is that correct? (if so, I'm now imagining a larger TR / BoM / TR / BoM ... chain. :p)
1: The Throne is never in play of course, but otherwise yes.
2: Yes.

you BoM a TR playing Durations, then Bonfire the Durations. the BoM still stay in play until the Durations finish all effects, right?

I'm pretty sure the BoM leaves play once the last Duration does, just like it would if you had played a Throne Room normally.

Bonfire can still cause tracking issues when you trash a card that wouldn't be discarded from play during the current turn. It could be changed to something like "Trash up to 2 cards you have in play that you would discard from play this turn" to "fix" it, but it's so rare you actually want to trash these, it's not much of an issue, IMO.
Logged

dbclick

  • Coppersmith
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 48
  • Shuffle iT Username: dbclick
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2019, 11:29:23 am »
0

I played BoM as Fishing Village.
Jenny bought the last Fishing Village

The tracking issue still remains, I suppose.

The tracking issue that is fixed with the new tracking rule is having the BoM still able to be on the table when it played a Duration or Throne-played-Duration to remind you to do that extra effect later.

The tracking issue that still exists is having to remember what card you played with BoM. This will always be an issue unless you do some real weird stuff that probably wouldn't be worth it (or not do BoM and it's kin).
Logged

SSLY

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Shuffle iT Username: SSLY
  • aka Seesaw
  • Respect: +27
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2019, 11:54:43 am »
0

you BoM a TR playing Durations, then Bonfire the Durations. the BoM still stay in play until the Durations finish all effects, right?

I'm pretty sure the BoM leaves play once the last Duration does, just like it would if you had played a Throne Room normally.

uh thx, I misunderstood. BoM playing TR playing Duration operates just in the same way TR plays Duration.

Bonfire can still cause tracking issues when you trash a card that wouldn't be discarded from play during the current turn. It could be changed to something like "Trash up to 2 cards you have in play that you would discard from play this turn" to "fix" it, but it's so rare you actually want to trash these, it's not much of an issue, IMO.

seconded, seriously.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8171
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9582
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2019, 12:52:30 pm »
+1

So far there is no plan for an update pack. It doesn't sound like a very good product, though a few people would want it.

Count me as one of those people.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5830
  • Respect: +23487
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2019, 01:16:26 pm »
+2

Could you do it as a print-on-demand type thing (via GameCrafter or DriveThruCards or whoever)? I know FFG did their Game of Thrones miniexpansions this way; makes it so you don't have to estimate how many to make - they're made to order, like pizza*.
Well it's not something I know anything about. We need the cards to match, so I suspect anything like that would still be through a regular printer.

For the people thinking, "why would I use errata irl," I am sympathetic. If you don't have the physical card with the new wording, you have to really like the change to want to tell the people you're playing with, "oh here's some new text to remember." And well we will see what the level of interest is in getting physical copies of just the errata'd versions, but I am pessimistic as to that product existing. I think there's a better chance of just Band of Misfits / Overlord / Inheritance being BGG promos like Pathfinding, or of me someday making a Dark Ages 2E with an update pack that just replaces the changed cards with new takes on them.

Looking back at the changes today, the one thing I feel like, why did I do that, is renaming "lose track" to "stop moving." The people who know "lose track" by name don't get anything out of this, and when we talk about "where a card expects to be," saying "it loses track" is still natural, even though everybody knows where the card is.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5830
  • Respect: +23487
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2019, 01:17:24 pm »
0

It seems like with the new Inheritance rule, it's no longer necessary to restrict to non-victory cards.  I suppose you don't want to change what it does any more than necessary, but we might house-rule it so we can inherit Islands and Mills, if it ever matters.
Yes, I don't need it to say non-Victory anymore, but the idea wasn't to make all changes I might want, but just to fix what needed fixing. I didn't need to drop non-Victory from Inheritance and it does say that.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5830
  • Respect: +23487
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2019, 01:22:32 pm »
+1

you BoM a TR playing Durations, then Bonfire the Durations. the BoM still stay in play until the Durations finish all effects, right?
Bonfire messes up tracking and has not been fixed (the fix would be adding "non-duration," which still doesn't fix all cases, e.g. you can Bonfire the Throne that played a Duration) (edit: no the fix is what dbclick said, the Improve trick of seeing if the card would be discarded) (or I mean, just limit it to Coppers). If you play a Duration and Bonfire it, you still get the effect. If you Throne a Duration and Bonfire the Duration, the Throne goes away, remember that rule is that it stays out as long as the Duration, and the Duration is gone. But the effect still happens. The effect also still happens if you Bonfire both of them or just the Throne. If you BoM a Throne playing Durations, and Bonfire the Durations, the Throne wouldn't stay out, so BoM doesn't either. Anyway as noted, the Bonfire scenarios where tracking is messed up do not actually happen. We can construct a scenario where you're Bonfiring Hirelings to Graverobber them or whatever, but it's just not a thing.

The rule "Throne stays out with the Duration" has corner cases where everything isn't tracked perfectly. The main one though is storage cards, like Haven / Archive / Gear, where the stored cards themselves handle the tracking, so irl it's not confusing (if you Throne Gear but only set aside cards once, you know just what to do even though a Throne is pointlessly sitting there). If you Throne a Secret Cave and only discard once, or a Tactician and only discard once (e.g. no Pathfinding trick), then Throne stays out but isn't tracking anything.

We discussed fixing all the corner cases. Stef was in favor. The problem is that the rule that covers everything is way way harder to learn/understand than "Throne stays out with the Duration." We've been doing great with the current rule for a few years now. So in the end I didn't change it.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 01:25:15 pm by Donald X. »
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8872
  • Respect: +9652
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2019, 02:19:34 pm »
0

I don't think that sort of tracking issues are problems at all. The game does a great job in general with tracking; I don't think there's a problem that in some corner cases; an effect needs to happen that has no physical tracking. The durations sitting there are just a helpful reminder; they aren't a necessity.

If anything; I think a bigger tracking issue would be a very simple case of BoM (either old or new version) playing a Duration in a Kingdom with multiple Durations. You have to remember what it is. I don't think this would be an issue often; but if you played multiple BoMs (maybe 2 as Caravan and 1 as Fishing Village); I could see a real issue where you can't remember which one was the one with 2 copies.

But still, Dominion has required some memory aspects to play properly for a long time. Smugglers, Treasure Hunter, and Duration attacks that care if a player revealed Moat when they were played require remembering what happened on a previous turn. Squire and Pawn require remembering which choices were made when you get to your buy phase... there's plenty of things like this. I don't think it's a big problem.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 02:20:50 pm by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2848
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2019, 03:21:13 pm »
0

Additionally, when you are told to get a card from your discard pile, you can look through it to get the card. That's just implicit. You don't have to just look at the top couple of cards, you can look through the whole discard pile.
Will the online implementation let us look through our discard pile whenever this occurs, for those of us weak at card-counting?

Will it do so even when it is in fact just the top card that needs to move?
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9  All
 

Page created in 0.088 seconds with 21 queries.