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Author Topic: Kingdom recommendation for 3-player after using 1st game setup  (Read 287 times)

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lillu99

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Kingdom recommendation for 3-player after using 1st game setup
« on: September 10, 2019, 10:24:03 am »
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Hi everyone,

I introduced my friends to Dominion last night, playing a 3-player game with the 1st game setup.
At the end, my friends were not enthralled with the game (they were not against it either), saying that it was a bit long for what it is, a bit monotonous and mechanical, with low interaction and limited theme.

We discussed a bit and we agreed to try other kingdoms, probably next week, maybe adding Intrigue in.

Hence, what kingdom would you recommend to experienced card games players (including deck builders) that would have interesting combos but maybe also that could be conducive to different strategies (indeed, they felt that we were more or less all doing the same thing in the 1st game setup...I did not want to try a 'Big money' strategy because I knew they proabbly would not have been able to counter it) ?

thanks !
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Awaclus

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Re: Kingdom recommendation for 3-player after using 1st game setup
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2019, 12:25:08 pm »
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I would recommend a 2-player game, any kingdom.
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pst

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Re: Kingdom recommendation for 3-player after using 1st game setup
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2019, 12:39:43 pm »
+1

Hence, what kingdom would you recommend to experienced card games players (including deck builders)

Just take all cards you have and make a random Kingdom from it. Then a new random Kingdom for the next game, etc.

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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Kingdom recommendation for 3-player after using 1st game setup
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2019, 12:56:12 pm »
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I just took a look at the recommended sets of 10 for Dominion and Intrigue--all 3 are pretty interesting kingdoms that I would recommend. I also like "The Plot Thickens" from Intrigue. The recommended lists are all near the end of the instructions, or you can see them here at the bottom of the page: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Intrigue
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JKRich

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Re: Kingdom recommendation for 3-player after using 1st game setup
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2019, 03:50:53 pm »
+1

I did not want to try a 'Big money' strategy because I knew they probably would not have been able to counter it) ?
Isn't it true that the first major step in becoming competent at Dominion is being able to beat Big Money (after learning not to buy Duchy on a 5-2 to take an early lead ;D ;D)? I know the first time my playgroup played Dark Ages I chose to play Big Money just for giggles and won easily. Maybe your friends found it to seem longer than it is because they were using bad strategy that made the game take longer -- otherwise they might've beaten Big Money. Is it possible that using the best strategy might've helped your friends see how the game is best played and thus encouraged them to learn to play the exciting, winning style we've all come to know and love? Just some random thoughts -- but if they're really experienced card players you think they'd be able to handle getting beat a few times to see how the game should be played. Now the "limited theme" issue is another thing. Some people like games that make them actually be able to imagine that they are slaying dragons or whatever. My former playgroup broke up partially over that issue. I was thrilled to keep playing Dominion when others weren't. It's plenty thematic to me, but to each their own.
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lillu99

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Re: Kingdom recommendation for 3-player after using 1st game setup
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2019, 03:51:37 am »
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THanks all for the recommendations.
I will have a look at "the plot thickens" and other recommendations.

@JKrich: yeah, maybe we should replay the same basic setup and I should try Big money to show a different strategy.
The thing is, we have so many games (and this is clearly my fault as I buy way too many) whereas my friends are rather "conservative" and tend to revert to "true and tested" games (such as Race, 7 wonders..) that we have played over and over, so that I know a game has to make a good impression rather quickly if we are to play it again. And I really want to be able to stick to Dominion for a while...
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pst

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Re: Kingdom recommendation for 3-player after using 1st game setup
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2019, 04:44:57 am »
+2

yeah, maybe we should replay the same basic setup and I should try Big money to show a different strategy.

I really advise against replaying the same board, maybe unless those new players explicitly say they want to try the same board because of something they thought of afterwards, but even then switch in a couple of "new" cards instead of cards that are not part of what they want to try next.

You wrote in your original post that those players were not enthralled with the game and thought it was a bit monotonous. Being always different is a big part of what Dominion is and what it is best at! If you think you only have a few games to show it to them before they have formed their opinion, then don't waste that time with games that don't show off that variance.
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JKRich

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Re: Kingdom recommendation for 3-player after using 1st game setup
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2019, 11:20:39 am »
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I hadn't looked at what the First Game Setup was before my previous post. My main point was that the game is obviously going to be longer when everyone is using bad strategies. I would actually recommend playing a kingdom where Big Money is not a winning strategy, rather something more exciting. If you want maximum interaction and are using Intrigue, definitely use Masquerade (except that the more interaction, the longer the game will take so there's a balance to be struck there). Looking at the recommended Base kingdoms, I like Size Distortion (without the putrid Bureaucrat that newer players tend to overvalue -- maybe use Smithy instead). It gives options like whether to go for Workshop/Gardens or try to corner the market on Gold with Bandit, how to use Artisan, etc. Maybe you could pick a different strategy than your friends, beat them with that, then play again and when they try your 1st game strategy try a different one and beat them with that to show them the skill involved in winning, not just picking the obvious strategy and hoping you get lucky.
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lillu99

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Re: Kingdom recommendation for 3-player after using 1st game setup
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2019, 04:53:43 am »
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I hadn't looked at what the First Game Setup was before my previous post. My main point was that the game is obviously going to be longer when everyone is using bad strategies. I would actually recommend playing a kingdom where Big Money is not a winning strategy, rather something more exciting. If you want maximum interaction and are using Intrigue, definitely use Masquerade (except that the more interaction, the longer the game will take so there's a balance to be struck there). Looking at the recommended Base kingdoms, I like Size Distortion (without the putrid Bureaucrat that newer players tend to overvalue -- maybe use Smithy instead). It gives options like whether to go for Workshop/Gardens or try to corner the market on Gold with Bandit, how to use Artisan, etc. Maybe you could pick a different strategy than your friends, beat them with that, then play again and when they try your 1st game strategy try a different one and beat them with that to show them the skill involved in winning, not just picking the obvious strategy and hoping you get lucky.

thanks I will have a look at this kingdom.
I planned to do Base + intrigue so that they can see the "choice cards" as well.
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theorel

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Re: Kingdom recommendation for 3-player after using 1st game setup
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2019, 09:32:12 am »
+2

I really disliked Dominion when I first played it...it seemed pointless, we were all just buying cards to draw cards to get VPs.  Trashing is what convinced me there was a deeper game there.  If I were trying to convince veteran gamers that there is more to the game I would ask to play 2 games (potentially with the same kingdom, not sure how competitive the strategies are with each other).
The first would include Chapel, Remodel, Village and Smithy.  And I would show off some sort of "Turbo-remodel" where you trash out everything as fast as possible and try to remodel your way into provinces (by remodeling your Golds rather than playing them).  This showcases that trashing can really change the game, and that sometimes you have ways to get provinces besides money, both of which are really key big-picture strategic considerations.

The second would include workshop and Gardens, and you just do the straightforward buy Workshops and Gardens whenever possible, while also buying coppers and other junk.  This in particular shows a significant contrast from the turbo-remodel strategy, and shows off how sometimes Provinces aren't even relevant to the winning strategy.

I'd personally stay away from most attacks and any kind of sloggy games, certainly no Torturer (which is in "the plot thickens").  Bandit's not bad...
Size Distortion replacing Bureaucrat and Witch with Remodel and Smithy looks like a good kingdom for this purpose.
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Worblehat

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Re: Kingdom recommendation for 3-player after using 1st game setup
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2019, 08:59:21 pm »
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When I teach new players Dominion, the first game is First Game, the second is Size Distortion. As you say, trashing is the key concept (mostly) missing from First Game, plus Size Distortion includes the contrast you mention between the Chapel trashing engine building strategy and the Workshop/Gardens rush. Granted, I haven't done this since 2nd Ed. came out, but both options are still present in the new Size Distortion. Though at first glance it looks like the engine is even stronger now...

Torturer is a great card to include in multiplayer games, particularly since the OP's friends complained about "low interaction". Attacks that scale (like Torturer and Swindler in The Plot Thickens) are obviously fantastic in 3-4 player. Though I'd warn against going much further than that in 4-player; being the fourth player in the Intrigue/Dark Ages recommended set Invasion (6 attacks available) was quite ugly.  :P
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