Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6  All

Author Topic: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019  (Read 4765 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Gubump

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 678
  • Respect: +390
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #100 on: October 03, 2019, 04:16:39 pm »
0

95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.

There are, however, no cards that are strictly worse than Margrave at the same cost. Except for Tragic Hero in BM decks.
In BM, Margrave sifting may actually help your opponent, so Tragic Hero isn't strictly worse.

Fair point, but that's unlikely enough that it would still look wrong to price them the same. The card draw and the buy aren't the only reasons Margrave is so powerful, after all.
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his Dominion Card Image Generator.

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3779
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2331
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #101 on: October 03, 2019, 04:50:13 pm »
0

In the grand scheme of things, Big Money is just way too narrow a scope on which to base card judgements. In Big Money, Patron is strictly better than Conclave. Quarry is barely distinguishable from an overpriced copper. All throne variants and village variants rank among the worst cards in the game.

We don't currently live in a world where the Big Money strategy in Dominion is all that relevant, especially after the 2nd edition revisions to base and intrigue. Even mostly money decks have little trouble finding card interactions within the non-basic kingdom cards that do better than Big Money + X.

I know. I never actually play Big Money. My main point was that it stinks in engines because it "rewards" you for building a successful engine by removing an important engine component.

It removes an engine component, but replaces it with payload. Is that worth it? It depends on what kind of mid/endgame expected. In a race for provinces, it combines well with other draw to help you draw your deck while having extra money to sneak in an extra VP card. The drawback of gaining a stop card is more detrimental on the turn after TH blows up. Maybe the game has already been decided by then.

If however you foresee needing draw for a good while, and endgame is still far in sight, then okay that's when you take the other smithy variants over TH. Like, don't start popping THs when you are in the middle of an ambassador war or pop it while in the process of cleaning up after a junker across several turns.

If TH happens to be the only handsize increaser on the board, then it doesn't matter how much worse it might be than other smithy variants because it's probably better to get it than do the thing on the board that doesn't give you extra cards to hold in hand.
Logged

Gubump

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 678
  • Respect: +390
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #102 on: October 03, 2019, 06:31:03 pm »
0

In the grand scheme of things, Big Money is just way too narrow a scope on which to base card judgements. In Big Money, Patron is strictly better than Conclave. Quarry is barely distinguishable from an overpriced copper. All throne variants and village variants rank among the worst cards in the game.

We don't currently live in a world where the Big Money strategy in Dominion is all that relevant, especially after the 2nd edition revisions to base and intrigue. Even mostly money decks have little trouble finding card interactions within the non-basic kingdom cards that do better than Big Money + X.

I know. I never actually play Big Money. My main point was that it stinks in engines because it "rewards" you for building a successful engine by removing an important engine component.

It removes an engine component, but replaces it with payload. Is that worth it? It depends on what kind of mid/endgame expected. In a race for provinces, it combines well with other draw to help you draw your deck while having extra money to sneak in an extra VP card. The drawback of gaining a stop card is more detrimental on the turn after TH blows up. Maybe the game has already been decided by then.

If however you foresee needing draw for a good while, and endgame is still far in sight, then okay that's when you take the other smithy variants over TH. Like, don't start popping THs when you are in the middle of an ambassador war or pop it while in the process of cleaning up after a junker across several turns.

If TH happens to be the only handsize increaser on the board, then it doesn't matter how much worse it might be than other smithy variants because it's probably better to get it than do the thing on the board that doesn't give you extra cards to hold in hand.

Agreed. Like I said, it can be really good, but I think it's rarer than most other Smithy variants. I've reassessed it into a B-tier, I would say.
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his Dominion Card Image Generator.

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 621
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1420
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #103 on: October 03, 2019, 07:55:12 pm »
+2

Renaissance
1. Recruiter
2. Silk Merchant
3. Old Witch
4. Inventor
5. Lackeys
6. Seer
7. Sculptor
8. Treasurer
9. Priest
10. Spices
11. Mountain Village
12. Cargo Ship
13. Swashbuckler
14. Experiment
15. Border Guard
16. Patron
17. Research
18. Hideout
19. Flag Bearer
20. Improve
21. Ducat
22. Scepter
23. Acting Troupe
24. Scholar
25. Villain
Logged

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2702
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3367
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #104 on: October 03, 2019, 08:52:31 pm »
0

95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.

There are, however, no cards that are strictly worse than Margrave at the same cost. Except for Tragic Hero in BM decks.
In BM, Margrave sifting may actually help your opponent, so Tragic Hero isn't strictly worse.

It also totally doesn't matter, because unless both are in the same game, being strictly worse than another card doesn't have any sway on whether the card is good or bad, especially when that other card is top tier.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them

Commodore Chuckles

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1070
  • Shuffle iT Username: Commodore Chuckles
  • Respect: +1384
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #105 on: October 03, 2019, 08:59:58 pm »
+1

Whoa, the Renaissance list is also surprising. Silk Merchant at #2? Hideout is considered weak?
Logged

Gubump

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 678
  • Respect: +390
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #106 on: October 03, 2019, 09:00:16 pm »
0

Okay, Renaissance is the new most wrong list, no contest. Mountain Village and Patron should be way higher, Lackeys and Research are way too high, especially Research (Research really is F-tier), and both Scholar and Hideout should be higher. Looking at all of them at once, Renaissance has the best cards on average IMO. Most cards in Renaissance are at least high B-tier.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 09:06:41 pm by Gubump »
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his Dominion Card Image Generator.

Gubump

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 678
  • Respect: +390
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #107 on: October 03, 2019, 09:02:25 pm »
0

Whoa, the Renaissance list is also surprising. Silk Merchant at #2? Hideout is considered weak?

Here are my top 5, in order:
1. Recruiter
2. Mountain Village
3. Inventor
4. Patron
5. Scholar
Border Guard and Silk Merchant are #6 and #7, respectively, but Recruiter is SS-tier (the only other Kingdom cards in that tier, for reference, are Chapel, King's Court, and Cultist), #2-4 are S-tier, and Border Guard and Silk Merchant are both A-tier.

EDIT: Forgot about Sauna/Avanto; they're also SS-tier. Also forgot to mention Scholar as A-tier.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2019, 12:54:22 am by Gubump »
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his Dominion Card Image Generator.

Commodore Chuckles

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1070
  • Shuffle iT Username: Commodore Chuckles
  • Respect: +1384
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #108 on: October 03, 2019, 09:20:02 pm »
0

Whoa, the Renaissance list is also surprising. Silk Merchant at #2? Hideout is considered weak?

Here are my top 5, in order:
1. Recruiter
2. Mountain Village
3. Inventor
4. Patron
5. Scholar
Border Guard and Silk Merchant are #6 and #7, respectively, but Recruiter is SS-tier (the only other Kingdom cards in that tier, for reference, are Chapel, King's Court, and Cultist), #2-4 are S-tier, and Border Guard and Silk Merchant are both A-tier.

I don't think Mountain Village, Border Guard and Silk Merchant are that great. And I'm curious about your opinion on Library based on how highly you rated Scholar.
Logged

Gubump

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 678
  • Respect: +390
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #109 on: October 03, 2019, 09:43:41 pm »
0

Whoa, the Renaissance list is also surprising. Silk Merchant at #2? Hideout is considered weak?

Here are my top 5, in order:
1. Recruiter
2. Mountain Village
3. Inventor
4. Patron
5. Scholar
Border Guard and Silk Merchant are #6 and #7, respectively, but Recruiter is SS-tier (the only other Kingdom cards in that tier, for reference, are Chapel, King's Court, and Cultist), #2-4 are S-tier, and Border Guard and Silk Merchant are both A-tier.

I don't think Mountain Village, Border Guard and Silk Merchant are that great. And I'm curious about your opinion on Library based on how highly you rated Scholar.

I don't think Library is anywhere near as good. Scholar lets you discard all your Victory cards so you can replace them with something useful, whereas Library does not. Library also doesn't stack nearly as easily. It's far easier to redeem a bad hand with Scholar than with Library.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 09:48:30 pm by Gubump »
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his Dominion Card Image Generator.

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3779
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2331
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #110 on: October 04, 2019, 10:50:13 am »
0

Library can skip unwanted actions, but Scholar can refresh your hand after choking on stop cards. Both are very much hurt by being terminal, which library mitigates a bit better when you have treasures.

I think Research can go down a bit here. Flag bearer can probably boost up.

Hideout is like Shanty Town: an excellent secondary village. Your deck falls apart if you need them as your main source of actions, but it helps your deck run silky smooth if you have actions from elsewhere, and early game you might get lucky enough to take advantage of the +2 actions.

Silk Merchant is so high because you are really off to the races when you open it. Even a Silk Merchant / Silver opening still guarantees $5 even if you bottomdeck the merchant and Silver. But, you can open anything with Silk Merchant that you can afford and know that during the second shuffle you have a villager to manage their collision. It's a bit awkward when you buy multiple Silk Merchants, but they become super good again if you can trash them out of your deck while getting that extra coffer/villager bonus. And it gives +buy, which sometimes you need. It might feel unfair that it is so high due to its power coming from being an on-gain deal you can't resist, but the card synergizes fairly well with the coffers and villagers it gives you.
Logged

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 621
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1420
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #111 on: October 04, 2019, 11:55:00 am »
0

For those of you who are surprised that Silk Merchant is considered a power card, I recommend watching the following two videos:



Logged

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2140
  • Respect: +2697
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #112 on: October 04, 2019, 12:40:24 pm »
0

I'm confused how Hideout fell so low here. It's a cantrip trasher. Sure it's a bit slow but it has incidental +2 Actions and it could move up a few spots.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3779
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2331
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #113 on: October 04, 2019, 12:52:38 pm »
0

I'm confused how Hideout fell so low here. It's a cantrip trasher. Sure it's a bit slow but it has incidental +2 Actions and it could move up a few spots.

Have you seen what's above it? Renaissance is a stack expansion (even though I can see some cards dropping below hideout).

I guess with Hideout, it's slow at thinning your deck when not just targetting treasure. But, trashing copper early is not great for your economy, and trashing estate is just economy neutral. A lot of other early game trashers give a more meaningful benefit for the early game than Hideout, which is a bit rough for a $4. I see it as a more convenient early trasher than Sacrifice but worse than Spice Merchant Or anything that gives +$2 on trashing Estates or +$3 on trashing copper (Salvager, Priest, Moneylender).
Logged

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2140
  • Respect: +2697
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #114 on: October 04, 2019, 01:01:02 pm »
0

Sure. By move up a few spots I meant I want it between Experiment and Border Guard and I want Swashbuckler to move down to just above Research.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 621
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1420
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #115 on: October 05, 2019, 01:42:09 pm »
+1

Promos
1. Governor
2. Captain
3. Black Market
4. Sauna/Avanto
5. Envoy
6. Church
7. Walled Village
8. Dismantle
9. Prince
10. Stash
Logged

Commodore Chuckles

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1070
  • Shuffle iT Username: Commodore Chuckles
  • Respect: +1384
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #116 on: October 05, 2019, 06:32:50 pm »
0

Captain is way overrated. Dismantle is a tad underrated.
Logged

Gubump

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 678
  • Respect: +390
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #117 on: October 06, 2019, 12:17:12 am »
0

Captain is way overrated. Dismantle is a tad underrated.

How? It only costs more than BoM yet is a now-and-next-turn BoM. Even better than that, actually, since it synergizes with cost reduction. I think Sauna/Avanto should be #1 and everything above it should just shift down 1 spot, and Walled Village and Dismantle should switch places. Other than that, I completely agree with this list.
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his Dominion Card Image Generator.

Commodore Chuckles

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1070
  • Shuffle iT Username: Commodore Chuckles
  • Respect: +1384
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #118 on: October 06, 2019, 12:42:47 am »
+1

Captain is way overrated. Dismantle is a tad underrated.

How? It only costs more than BoM yet is a now-and-next-turn BoM.

Because BoM is not particularly good.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3779
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2331
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #119 on: October 06, 2019, 04:28:46 pm »
0

Captain is way overrated. Dismantle is a tad underrated.

How? It only costs more than BoM yet is a now-and-next-turn BoM.

Because BoM is not particularly good.

It is when you staple +1 card +1 action to it on the duration turn. Really, you only need one good target to make Captain a key piece of your deck.
Logged

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 621
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1420
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2019, 05:41:53 pm »
+1

Dark Ages
1. Cultist
2. Urchin
3. Wandering Minstrel
4. Hermit
5. Counterfeit
6. Junk Dealer
7. Ironmonger
8. Knights
9. Forager
10. Fortress
11. Altar
12. Market Square
13. Hunting Grounds
14. Procession
15. Catacombs
16. Bandit Camp
17. Squire
18. Count
19. Rebuild
20. Rogue
21. Marauder
22. Graverobber
23. Storeroom
24. Rats
25. Armory
26. Band of Misfits
27. Scavenger
28. Sage
29. Vagrant
30. Mystic
31. Poor House
32. Feodum
33. Pillage
34. Death Cart
35. Beggar
Logged

Commodore Chuckles

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1070
  • Shuffle iT Username: Commodore Chuckles
  • Respect: +1384
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #121 on: October 06, 2019, 11:17:40 pm »
0

Mystic is underrated. Count is way underrated.
Logged

RTT

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 609
  • Respect: +694
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #122 on: October 07, 2019, 02:01:59 am »
+2

Mystic is underrated. Count is way underrated.
no comment on rebuild?
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3779
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2331
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #123 on: October 07, 2019, 08:11:26 am »
0

Mystic is underrated. Count is way underrated.

When it came time to insert Count into the ranking, the big question was whether it was better or worse than Squire. I personally ranked it better than squire, but really not by much.

It's a card that is good in the very early game for trashing, as well as in the lategame for gaining Duchies. In the middle of the game though, it's rather unimpressive compared to what you terminals you could be playing.
Logged

ipofanes

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1392
  • Shuffle iT Username: ipofanes
  • Respect: +717
    • View Profile
Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #124 on: October 07, 2019, 10:05:56 am »
0

I'd like to see Death Cart and Feodum swapped. They are both niche, but Feodum more so.

Otherwise, very nice order. The top 10 are rarely ignored in any kingdom.
Logged
Lord Rattington denies my undo requests
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6  All
 

Page created in 0.206 seconds with 21 queries.