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Author Topic: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019  (Read 4032 times)

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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2019, 09:19:36 pm »
0

Tragic Hero is way too high IMO. It's priced the same as Margrave, i.e. as if being forced to trash it for a Treasure is a bonus, when that's actually a drawback IMHO (unless you're playing with Platinums + Colonies).

Precisely. I'll take a Smithy over a yellow Curse Gold, thank you very much.

Blessed Village is also way overrated.
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Gubump

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2019, 10:57:25 pm »
0

Tragic Hero is way too high IMO. It's priced the same as Margrave, i.e. as if being forced to trash it for a Treasure is a bonus, when that's actually a drawback IMHO (unless you're playing with Platinums + Colonies).

Precisely. I'll take a Smithy over a yellow Curse Gold, thank you very much.

Blessed Village is also way overrated.

Somehow I didn't even notice that Blessed Village was so high. I wouldn't say it's WAY overrated, but it's on the worse side of the Villages IMO, and is certainly too high in this list.
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markusin

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2019, 12:21:05 am »
0

Tragic Hero is way too high IMO. It's priced the same as Margrave, i.e. as if being forced to trash it for a Treasure is a bonus, when that's actually a drawback IMHO (unless you're playing with Platinums + Colonies).

Precisely. I'll take a Smithy over a yellow Curse Gold, thank you very much.

Blessed Village is also way overrated.

So tragic hero, it turns out smithy with a +buy is so good that you will take tragic hero for that effect a lot, even if you have to work to keep the TH from trashing itself. And if you can't keep the TH alive, well, the treasure gain in a vacuum it sounds bad, but often you are drawing that treasure the same turn that TH is trashed. Very good for ramping up your deck to the point where the TH is missed less. But really, you'll likely be using that treasure (usually gold) to help buy more THs, and then you get a big turn at endgame once you trash those ones. It's kind of like procession in the endgame, where you trash your deck to smithereens but you don't care because it's the last couple of turns and you need to go all out.

Blessed Village is also quite strong for a village. Most villages do nothing before you have the terminal action density to make the +2 actions on them relevant. Not blessed village though. You get the boons within the next turn, helping along your building while getting the village that you know you'll need soon anyway.
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Gubump

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2019, 02:17:04 am »
0

In a Big Money deck, the "trash this for a Treasure" bonus will never trigger, which leaves Tragic Hero as just a worse Margrave. So TH sucks in Big Money.

In an engine deck, TH actively anti-synergizes with engines because it replaces a powerful engine component (itself) with a Treasure card that, sure, acts as part of the payload, but chances are, you bought a TH because you need drawing over money, so it removes something that you need from your deck while giving you a card that you don't need in return. So TH sucks in Engines.

It's no Scout-tier, but I would say TH is easily F-tier. I would've placed it dead last in Nocturne in a heartbeat.

P.S.: My second point for TH only applies w/o Platinums + Colonies. If you're playing with Platinums + Colonies, then TH is B or A tier.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 02:25:37 am by Gubump »
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2019, 04:18:04 am »
+5

95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2019, 05:11:18 am »
+1

95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.

It's a bit like saying Chapel sucks because Donate exists.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2019, 06:13:22 am »
+1

95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.

Most $5 cards are not worse than Smithy.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #82 on: October 02, 2019, 07:53:15 am »
+2

In a Big Money deck, the "trash this for a Treasure" bonus will never trigger, which leaves Tragic Hero as just a worse Margrave. So TH sucks in Big Money.

In an engine deck, TH actively anti-synergizes with engines because it replaces a powerful engine component (itself) with a Treasure card that, sure, acts as part of the payload, but chances are, you bought a TH because you need drawing over money, so it removes something that you need from your deck while giving you a card that you don't need in return. So TH sucks in Engines.

It's no Scout-tier, but I would say TH is easily F-tier. I would've placed it dead last in Nocturne in a heartbeat.

P.S.: My second point for TH only applies w/o Platinums + Colonies. If you're playing with Platinums + Colonies, then TH is B or A tier.

Big Money is fine keeping the smithy +buy, if for some reason big money is actually relevant. And it costs $5, so that's something to buy if you don't have $6. And it really depends on the board if there is no way to activate it. Maybe there is Flag Bearer or something.

You say TH sucks in engines because you lose the ability to draw cards with it once it activates (assuming you can't prevent that indefinitely due to the specifics of the engine being played). That would be a problem if the game were to last "forever". But the game doesn't last forever. You do get to draw with TH, just not forever. Heck, you can look at it as a one shot +3 cards +1 buy that gives you a gold and still see value in that.

There is a difference between an engine wanting gold (for lack of better treasure) for $5, and an engine wanting a +3 cards +1 buy that turns into a gold for $5. The former is just an extra stop card that helps you buy things The latter helps you get a good turn relative to anything else you might be doing on that board before you get the gold. With that good turn, you can better tune your engine to make it more reliable or more explosive. You don't have to worry about payload so much anymore because TH covered that for you. If there is no other draw on the board, that +3 cards and +1 buy, even if temporary, is likely going to vault you ahead of an opponent that isn't increasing their hand size.

One trick is to just buy more THs. When you buy the second TH after drawing your deck, it's more like it costs $2 instead of $5 thanks to the gold it gains. The next one kinda costs -$1, because now you have two golds that together give $6. You can keep doing this, getting a further discount on future THs thanks to the golds gained by the last one. In the meantime, you are doing whatever else your engine does, eased by the albeit temporary draw of TH. When you finally decide to stop buying TH, well now you have a bunch of extra money with your golds that the THs gained you, plus whatever +buy you got from your last THs.

It's a matter of context. I would not say no to a magical Gold that was added to my hand as a sixth card every turn vs. nothing. Treasures like Gold are often problematic to for an engine because there might not be enough draw available on the board to draw the treasure and everything else that needs to be drawn. But the treasures gained by TH are always gained in the presence of something that can draw a bunch of cards: TH (until they run out).

The base case for TH is quite good, and you should get comfortable with understanding how it works out in games rather than always picking every other draw card over it.

Of course, TH isn't good everywhere. It's not good when you can only play one terminal each turn and you don't want that terminal to be a smithy with +buy for whatever reason. It's not good if you are going to need draw that lasts over many turns due to the particular nature of the board, for example one focusing on a repeatable source of VP tokens, or one that is using brutal attacks and both players are struggling to draw the cards they need to stay afloat.
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Jeebus

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #83 on: October 02, 2019, 10:24:34 am »
+2

One trick is to just buy more THs. When you buy the second TH after drawing your deck, it's more like it costs $2 instead of $5 thanks to the gold it gains. The next one kinda costs -$1, because now you have two golds that together give $6.

I don't think this is an accurate assessment unless you keep overdrawing. If you're going to include the effect of the Golds in your deck so that each TH is cheaper, you have to also consider that Gold is a stop card. So if you you're not overdrawing, the second TH is +2 cards instead of +3 cards, and the third one is +1 card.

I nevertheless agree that TH sometimes is very good and makes for an explosive finish kind of like Procession cam do. Other times the trashing and Gold is mainly a drawback. How good TH is is more kingdom dependent than most terminal draw.

markusin

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2019, 01:07:28 pm »
0

One trick is to just buy more THs. When you buy the second TH after drawing your deck, it's more like it costs $2 instead of $5 thanks to the gold it gains. The next one kinda costs -$1, because now you have two golds that together give $6.

I don't think this is an accurate assessment unless you keep overdrawing. If you're going to include the effect of the Golds in your deck so that each TH is cheaper, you have to also consider that Gold is a stop card. So if you you're not overdrawing, the second TH is +2 cards instead of +3 cards, and the third one is +1 card.

This is true. It therefore matters what the rest of your deck is doing to make up for that. For TH to even be triggers presumes that there could be another good source of draw to get, and the TH on-play effect actively helps your deck keep rolling to continue strengthening it while it's getting treasure.

The TH triggers are mainly a nuisance if you incidentally have a 6 card hard due to stuff like Save or an opponent's Soothsayer or something else non-stackable.
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Gubump

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2019, 01:24:31 pm »
0

markusin, you're talking like you either draw nothing at all or your entire deck when you suggest "just buy more THs."
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Gubump

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2019, 01:25:39 pm »
0

95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.

It's a bit like saying Chapel sucks because Donate exists.

Except that Donate doesn't cost , and Chapel doesn't trash itself for a Silver.
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Gubump

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #87 on: October 02, 2019, 01:33:41 pm »
0

95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.

There are, however, no cards that are strictly worse than Margrave at the same cost. Except for Tragic Hero in BM decks.
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markusin

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #88 on: October 02, 2019, 07:07:19 pm »
0

markusin, you're talking like you either draw nothing at all or your entire deck when you suggest "just buy more THs."

Can you elaborate what you mean here?
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Gubump

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #89 on: October 02, 2019, 10:22:43 pm »
+1

markusin, you're talking like you either draw nothing at all or your entire deck when you suggest "just buy more THs."

Can you elaborate what you mean here?

often you are drawing that treasure the same turn that TH is trashed.

That only happens reliably when you are drawing your deck, but you only need a net handsize increase of one before playing your TH to trash your TH into a Gold, so you can very easily draw up to a handsize of 8 without having the cards necessary to draw more cards. I don't believe that using the word "often" is even a little justified here, especially since gaining that treasure occurs AFTER drawing the cards from TH.
You're only going to be reliably drawing your Gold the same turn you trash your TH if you either have a very thin deck or if each turn you're either drawing next to nothing or a ton of cards with no in-between.

I'll admit that calling it F-tier was probably an exaggeration, but it's definitely not an A-tier like its ranking suggests. I'm not saying that TH is NEVER good (every Kingdom card CAN be good, even Scout), but it is easily the worst Smithy variant IMO.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 10:36:01 pm by Gubump »
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Chris is me

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #90 on: October 02, 2019, 10:39:39 pm »
0

In a Big Money deck, the "trash this for a Treasure" bonus will never trigger, which leaves Tragic Hero as just a worse Margrave. So TH sucks in Big Money.

"A worse Margrave" is a really good card, dude. Draw and Buy in one action is awesome.

Quote
It's no Scout-tier, but I would say TH is easily F-tier. I would've placed it dead last in Nocturne in a heartbeat.

So there's tons of utility in TH in an engine. In a lot of cases you just play it like a Draw To X card that can blow itself up for a bonus. Play TH, play a little payload and/or discarding some stuff, play another, keep going.

But really I think you're missing the utility of blowing it up. Getting a little extra payload and a Buy to use that turn is pretty good - particularly if you have a way to just gain Tragic Heroes. Or if it's the last turn or whatever. Sure you only draw the Treasure in a deck you've already nearly finished drawing... but I mean, you're blowing it up, so you already have to be halfway there right?

Quote
P.S.: My second point for TH only applies w/o Platinums + Colonies. If you're playing with Platinums + Colonies, then TH is B or A tier.

You've got a lot of learning left, man.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 10:40:46 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #91 on: October 03, 2019, 12:06:23 am »
0

markusin, you're talking like you either draw nothing at all or your entire deck when you suggest "just buy more THs."

Can you elaborate what you mean here?

often you are drawing that treasure the same turn that TH is trashed.

That only happens reliably when you are drawing your deck, but you only need a net handsize increase of one before playing your TH to trash your TH into a Gold, so you can very easily draw up to a handsize of 8 without having the cards necessary to draw more cards. I don't believe that using the word "often" is even a little justified here, especially since gaining that treasure occurs AFTER drawing the cards from TH.
You're only going to be reliably drawing your Gold the same turn you trash your TH if you either have a very thin deck or if each turn you're either drawing next to nothing or a ton of cards with no in-between.

I'll admit that calling it F-tier was probably an exaggeration, but it's definitely not an A-tier like its ranking suggests. I'm not saying that TH is NEVER good (every Kingdom card CAN be good, even Scout), but it is easily the worst Smithy variant IMO.

Ah okay, that makes it clear. Do note though, that the first TH can get you to a handsize of 7 without blowing up, and the next TH after that gets you to 9 cards. Playing more than one TH in a turn implies there is some sort of village available, and that can potentially be used to draw the treasure you gain. That or you blow up two THs to get to 11 cards, but that is very bold and sounds more like endgame territory.

We may have different definitions of "often", and it may sound too strong for you but not for me. I see it as, any village/smithy like deck with trashing can get very good mileage out of TH. More rare is the games where you can keep multiple alive for several turns thanks to having fewer than 8 stop cards in deck. Every TH after the first one in that situation is a ruined market, so not a great source of +buy, however they are revved up to give a burst of money when it comes to endgame should you gain more stop cards.
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Gubump

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #92 on: October 03, 2019, 12:08:35 am »
0

In a Big Money deck, the "trash this for a Treasure" bonus will never trigger, which leaves Tragic Hero as just a worse Margrave. So TH sucks in Big Money.

"A worse Margrave" is a really good card, dude. Draw and Buy in one action is awesome.

Except that that's strictly worse than Margave at the same cost.

Quote
It's no Scout-tier, but I would say TH is easily F-tier. I would've placed it dead last in Nocturne in a heartbeat.

So there's tons of utility in TH in an engine. In a lot of cases you just play it like a Draw To X card that can blow itself up for a bonus. Play TH, play a little payload and/or discarding some stuff, play another, keep going.

But really I think you're missing the utility of blowing it up. Getting a little extra payload and a Buy to use that turn is pretty good - particularly if you have a way to just gain Tragic Heroes. Or if it's the last turn or whatever. Sure you only draw the Treasure in a deck you've already nearly finished drawing... but I mean, you're blowing it up, so you already have to be halfway there right?

You have to be all the way there to be blowing up TH AND drawing the Gold from it in the same turn without getting really lucky. And playing two +handsize cards in one turn once isn't really halfway there.

Quote
P.S.: My second point for TH only applies w/o Platinums + Colonies. If you're playing with Platinums + Colonies, then TH is B or A tier.

You've got a lot of learning left, man.

Why so? "Gain a Treasure" is way better if Platinums are in the Supply.
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Gubump

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #93 on: October 03, 2019, 01:33:05 am »
+1

Council Room without tbe +buy is "worse" than Smithy (the extra card costs you an Action and costs other players nothing), but it ends up being a great card because that +buy helps put a very big hand to work)

I don't see how that's relevant. I only claim that TH is strictly worse than Margrave in BM decks, which it is because it doesn't have the attack and if it doesn't trigger the trashing effect, it doesn't have anything else to make up for the lack of the attack. Council Room does have something that makes up for its weakness.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #94 on: October 03, 2019, 05:50:23 am »
+3

95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.

It's a bit like saying Chapel sucks because Donate exists.

Except that Donate doesn't cost , and Chapel doesn't trash itself for a Silver.

wow that chapel sounds like a really broken card. because silver is exactly what you need after trashing so much. i would open 2 chapels if it were like that.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #95 on: October 03, 2019, 07:58:53 am »
+1

95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.

It's a bit like saying Chapel sucks because Donate exists.

Except that Donate doesn't cost , and Chapel doesn't trash itself for a Silver.

wow that chapel sounds like a really broken card. because silver is exactly what you need after trashing so much. i would open 2 chapels if it were like that.

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Gubump

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #96 on: October 03, 2019, 10:35:06 am »
+2

95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.

It's a bit like saying Chapel sucks because Donate exists.

Except that Donate doesn't cost , and Chapel doesn't trash itself for a Silver.

wow that chapel sounds like a really broken card. because silver is exactly what you need after trashing so much. i would open 2 chapels if it were like that.

Okay, I didn't think that analogy all the way through.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #97 on: October 03, 2019, 12:11:01 pm »
0

In the grand scheme of things, Big Money is just way too narrow a scope on which to base card judgements. In Big Money, Patron is strictly better than Conclave. Quarry is barely distinguishable from an overpriced copper. All throne variants and village variants rank among the worst cards in the game.

We don't currently live in a world where the Big Money strategy in Dominion is all that relevant, especially after the 2nd edition revisions to base and intrigue. Even mostly money decks have little trouble finding card interactions within the non-basic kingdom cards that do better than Big Money + X.
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Gubump

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #98 on: October 03, 2019, 03:51:11 pm »
0

In the grand scheme of things, Big Money is just way too narrow a scope on which to base card judgements. In Big Money, Patron is strictly better than Conclave. Quarry is barely distinguishable from an overpriced copper. All throne variants and village variants rank among the worst cards in the game.

We don't currently live in a world where the Big Money strategy in Dominion is all that relevant, especially after the 2nd edition revisions to base and intrigue. Even mostly money decks have little trouble finding card interactions within the non-basic kingdom cards that do better than Big Money + X.

I know. I never actually play Big Money. My main point was that it stinks in engines because it "rewards" you for building a successful engine by removing an important engine component.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #99 on: October 03, 2019, 04:10:18 pm »
0

95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.

There are, however, no cards that are strictly worse than Margrave at the same cost. Except for Tragic Hero in BM decks.
In BM, Margrave sifting may actually help your opponent, so Tragic Hero isn't strictly worse.
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