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Author Topic: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019  (Read 5778 times)

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Gubump

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2019, 01:48:03 am »
0

Why is Hireling so low? It's single-handedly warped every game I've played with it, more so than any other card, even including things like Chapel or Cathedral!

Royal Carriage should also be way higher. It's the second strongest Throne Room variant next to King's Court, IMO.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 01:49:14 am by Gubump »
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2019, 03:09:25 am »
0

Why is Hireling so low?

Because it's an expensive Laboratory.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2019, 04:19:39 am »
+4

Hireling's just a bit slow. It's the same reason that Miser's low.

Hireling = $6 and a terminal action to get an extra card each turn. It's a powerful effect that is caught between two awkward positions: if the draw is very good, you're better off buying something else. If the draw is very bad, it takes you too long to set up your Hirelings. It's best around that middle zone where the cycling is okay and you need the Hireling draw to do something interesting, which isn't as good as cards where you always need their effects (like Chapel).

Miser = a similar thing, where if you can afford to slowly thin out Copper with Miser, it's good, but sometimes you can't.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 04:24:12 am by Titandrake »
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ipofanes

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2019, 09:25:52 am »
+8

Why is Hireling so low?

You don't want a $6 card which misses so many reshuffles.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2019, 11:27:22 am »
+1

Of course this means that both Miser and Hireling are great cards for the game, meaning that they are great designs. Because it's not always obvious whether to go for them.

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2019, 07:38:20 pm »
0

Miser = a similar thing, where if you can afford to slowly thin out Copper with Miser, it's good, but sometimes you can't.

It's slow if you only buy one of them, which you shouldn't do if it's a game where Miser is good.

I agree that Hireling has a slowness problem, though. You have to wait a turn, and spend an Action and card slot on it before it actually does anything.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 07:42:49 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Titandrake

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2019, 08:32:49 pm »
+2

Miser = a similar thing, where if you can afford to slowly thin out Copper with Miser, it's good, but sometimes you can't.

It's slow if you only buy one of them, which you shouldn't do if it's a game where Miser is good.

I agree that Hireling has a slowness problem, though. You have to wait a turn, and spend an Action and card slot on it before it actually does anything.

Miser is still slow even if you buy more than one of them. Spending your terminal space on Misers is a real opportunity cost for deckbuilding. The slowness is relative to what else you could be spending those terminals on, not the absolute speed of getting Coppers onto your Tavern mat and getting $ for it.

Edit: to quickly defend Messenger a bit...

Without the on-buy, Messenger would indeed be pretty bad. It would still get picked up for +Buy reasons, but it isn't where you want to be.

The on-buy is the thing that stops Messenger from being bad. Very broadly, in an engine mirror, it's common for players to continually be evaluating trade-offs between buying-that-Village and buying-that-economy, where economy = Silver or terminal Silver or some other thing. You often hit a sort of mini-race, where you're trying to not lose the Village split, but also balance it with picking up economy and other Actions. What Messenger does is let you pick up economy, while making the Village race end faster. It doesn't help you win the Village split, but it makes it hurt less to detour for economy.

Plus sometimes there's only 1 Action in the pile you're Messengering. You gain first so in that case you get the action for free.

Really the main problem is that the effect is stapled to a Woodcutter-Chancellor.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 08:45:54 pm by Titandrake »
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markusin

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2019, 09:27:08 pm »
0

Miser = a similar thing, where if you can afford to slowly thin out Copper with Miser, it's good, but sometimes you can't.

It's slow if you only buy one of them, which you shouldn't do if it's a game where Miser is good.

I agree that Hireling has a slowness problem, though. You have to wait a turn, and spend an Action and card slot on it before it actually does anything.

Miser is still slow even if you buy more than one of them. Spending your terminal space on Misers is a real opportunity cost for deckbuilding. The slowness is relative to what else you could be spending those terminals on, not the absolute speed of getting Coppers onto your Tavern mat and getting $ for it.

Edit: to quickly defend Messenger a bit...

Without the on-buy, Messenger would indeed be pretty bad. It would still get picked up for +Buy reasons, but it isn't where you want to be.

The on-buy is the thing that stops Messenger from being bad. Very broadly, in an engine mirror, it's common for players to continually be evaluating trade-offs between buying-that-Village and buying-that-economy, where economy = Silver or terminal Silver or some other thing. You often hit a sort of mini-race, where you're trying to not lose the Village split, but also balance it with picking up economy and other Actions. What Messenger does is let you pick up economy, while making the Village race end faster. It doesn't help you win the Village split, but it makes it hurt less to detour for economy.

Plus sometimes there's only 1 Action in the pile you're Messengering. You gain first so in that case you get the action for free.

Really the main problem is that the effect is stapled to a Woodcutter-Chancellor.

If I wanted the +buy enough to get messenger, I will gladly take the Chancellor effect too. It makes the messenger open more attractive due to the chance to high roll with a messenger in the top hand of the shuffle.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2019, 09:34:42 pm »
0

The on-buy is the thing that stops Messenger from being bad. Very broadly, in an engine mirror, it's common for players to continually be evaluating trade-offs between buying-that-Village and buying-that-economy, where economy = Silver or terminal Silver or some other thing. You often hit a sort of mini-race, where you're trying to not lose the Village split, but also balance it with picking up economy and other Actions. What Messenger does is let you pick up economy, while making the Village race end faster. It doesn't help you win the Village split, but it makes it hurt less to detour for economy.

I'm not understanding how this is an overall benefit for you. Absent split/one-card pile situations, your opponent gets all of the same benefits.
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ipofanes

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2019, 03:13:22 am »
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The on-buy is the thing that stops Messenger from being bad.

Apart from the +buy, I am looking for situations where I can get my opponent a second specimen of a card I presume he only wants once (say, Moneylender, Chapel, Potion). This sometimes discourages both players from making the first move towards Moneylender etc.
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ipofanes

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2019, 03:29:24 am »
0

Of course this means that both Miser and Hireling are great cards for the game, meaning that they are great designs. Because it's not always obvious whether to go for them.
I would go for Hirelings in slogs. A 7th turn first Hireling is super good if the game is expected to last 22 turns but less effective if the game ends after 12 turns. Spikes like Wine Merchant or Capital would be cards to look out for in these kingdoms. Tactician, not so much, as he makes you discard the Hireling-drawn card along with the others.
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Titandrake

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2019, 04:57:02 am »
+1

The on-buy is the thing that stops Messenger from being bad. Very broadly, in an engine mirror, it's common for players to continually be evaluating trade-offs between buying-that-Village and buying-that-economy, where economy = Silver or terminal Silver or some other thing. You often hit a sort of mini-race, where you're trying to not lose the Village split, but also balance it with picking up economy and other Actions. What Messenger does is let you pick up economy, while making the Village race end faster. It doesn't help you win the Village split, but it makes it hurt less to detour for economy.

I'm not understanding how this is an overall benefit for you. Absent split/one-card pile situations, your opponent gets all of the same benefits.

You're effectively changing the rules of the game to be in your favor. If I know that you can buy 2 Villages a turn and I can only buy 1, then assuming I can handle the Messenger itself, it's in my interest to use Messenger to hand out 1-for-1 Villages until the pile runs out, to reduce how much I lose the split by. That's a somewhat contrived example, but it's just a more extreme version of the point I was trying to make above. If you pick up economy that doesn't help you get Villages faster, then you're going to be getting Villages slower than your opponent, so a 1-for-1 trade is slightly good for you.

The whole point of the Messenger on-buy is that if you use it, the effect isn't actually symmetrical - you get more out of the on-buy than your opponent gets out of it. Things ipofanes mentioned (giving out a 2nd Chapel when you don't have yours yet) are an example of this. It's not a particularly strong effect (Messenger deserves to be pretty low), but it's absolutely worth considering.

Plus the existence of the on-buy usually comes into play when considering 3-piles - makes it hard to treat Messenger like a blank card.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 04:58:59 am by Titandrake »
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aku_chi

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2019, 11:32:11 pm »
+1

Empires
1. Villa
2. Encampment/Plunder
3. Groundskeeper
4. City Quarter
5. Overlord
6. Catapult/Rocks
7. Crown
8. Forum
9. Enchantress
10. Wild Hunt
11. Archive
12. Chariot Race
13. Patrician/Emporium
14. Sacrifice
15. Legionary
16. Castles
17. Charm
18. Engineer
19. Farmers' Market
20. Capital
21. Temple
22. Settlers/Bustling Village
23. Gladiator/Fortune
24. Royal Blacksmith
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #63 on: September 25, 2019, 09:13:55 pm »
+2

Wow, a lot of stuff I disagree with here. Overlord and Crown are overrated, Farmers' Market and Temple are underrated.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2019, 08:10:36 am »
+1

Hinterlands
1. Margrave
2. Highway
3. Border Village
4. Stables
5. Spice Merchant
6. Haggler
7. Jack of all Trades
8. Scheme
9. Crossroads
10. Develop
11. Ill-Gotten Gains
12. Fool's Gold
13. Inn
14. Embassy
15. Oracle
16. Cartographer
17. Nomad Camp
18. Tunnel
19. Farmland
20. Oasis
21. Trader
22. Silk Road
23. Duchess
24. Noble Brigand
25. Mandarin
26. Cache
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Gubump

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2019, 02:11:48 pm »
0

Scheme, Fool's Gold, and Oracle should all be higher IMO, and Duchess should be lower, but other than that, I'd say this list is very accurate to my opinion.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2019, 09:53:59 pm »
0

Yes, I have no complaints here. Duchess could maybe be lower, but the cards below it are so awful that I wouldn't insist on it.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2019, 12:45:03 am »
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Yes, I have no complaints here. Duchess could maybe be lower, but the cards below it are so awful that I wouldn't insist on it.

I will pick up Noble Brigand and Mandarin more often than Ill grab a free Duchess
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2019, 03:36:03 pm »
+1

Guilds
1. Butcher
2. Stonemason
3. Herald
4. Plaza
5. Advisor
6. Doctor
7. Journeyman
8. Merchant Guild
9. Soothsayer
10. Baker
11. Candlestick Maker
12. Masterpiece
13. Taxman
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2019, 09:41:49 pm »
0

I'd put Advisor lower. And Masterpiece should be at the bottom.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2019, 02:50:33 am »
0

I'd put Advisor lower. And Masterpiece should be at the bottom.

On many boards, Advisor is a $4 Lab. I actually think it should be higher than plaza. I agree on Masterpiece being last.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2019, 05:31:47 am »
0

I'd have expected Merchant Guild higher and Doctor (who is awful with Shelters) lower.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2019, 08:31:04 am »
0

Nocturne
1. Vampire
2. Den of Sin
3. Cursed Village
4. Exorcist
5. Shepherd
6. Blessed Village
7. Ghost Town
8. Pixie
9. Tragic Hero
10. Monastery
11. Cemetery
12. Devil's Workshop
13. Werewolf
14. Necromancer
15. Tormentor
16. Skulk
17. Pooka
18. Secret Cave
19. Changeling
20. Conclave
21. Sacred Grove
22. Cobbler
23. Guardian
24. Leprechaun
25. Idol
26. Night Watchman
27. Tracker
28. Druid
29. Faithful Hound
30. Bard
31. Fool
32. Crypt
33. Raider
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2019, 12:08:11 pm »
+1

This is the most wrong list, I think. Shepherd is too high. Necromancer is too high. Cobbler is too low. Idol is way too low. I think Fool is too low (but I might be overestimating it).

Gubump

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2019, 07:12:16 pm »
+1

Tragic Hero is way too high IMO. It's priced the same as Margrave, i.e. as if being forced to trash it for a Treasure is a bonus, when that's actually a drawback IMHO (unless you're playing with Platinums + Colonies).

I agree with Jeebus about this being the most wrong list, albeit for different reasons. I agree with the list that Cobbler is bad, but Guardian, Shepherd, and Necromancer are too high (especially with the recent nerfs to Necro's most OP combos, Pillage and Death Cart), and Idol, Conclave, and Sacred Grove are way too low. And those are just the issues that stick out to me the most.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 07:18:55 pm by Gubump »
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