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Author Topic: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019  (Read 1529 times)

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aku_chi

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ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« on: September 04, 2019, 10:56:30 pm »
+4

For the second year in a row, members of the Dominion Discord are ranking cards in each Dominion set as a community.  For the results of the first ThunderDominion, see this thread.

This year, we're using a different process (mostly because it's different, not because it's superior).  We're ranking cards using a communal insertion sort.  The process:
  • An expansion is chosen.  Initially, all cards are unsorted.  We sort cards one at a time in the order they appear on http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/.  Higher cards are better and lower cards are weaker.
  • For each card, anyone can vote on which place in the sorted list the card belongs.  Voting for a card lasts anywhere from 1 hour to 24 hours depending on how quickly the votes come in, how close the votes are, and my schedule.  In practice, cards receive between 15-35 votes.
  • At the end of the round, the card will be added to the sorted list in the position of the median vote.  Then, we move on to the next card.

This process is ongoing, but we're through over 75% of the expansions.  I'll post the results in separate posts and add some delay for discussion/drama.

Results
Base
Intrigue
Seaside
Alchemy
Prosperity
Cornucopia
Hinterlands (Not started)
Dark Ages (Not started)
Guilds (Not started)
Adventures (In Progress)
Empires (Deferred for drama)
Nocturne (Deferred for drama)
Renaissance (Deferred for drama)
Promos (Deferred for drama)
Events
Projects
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 07:57:16 pm by aku_chi »
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aku_chi

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2019, 10:57:24 pm »
+2

Base
1. Chapel
2. Sentry
3. Witch
4.Throne Room
5. Artisan
6. Laboratory
7. Militia
8. Village
9. Smithy
10. Market
11. Remodel
12. Moneylender
13. Festival
14. Council Room
15. Poacher
16. Merchant
17. Bandit
18. Workshop
19. Library
20. Vassal
21. Cellar
22. Moat
23. Gardens
24. Harbinger
25. Mine
26. Bureaucrat
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aku_chi

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2019, 08:19:21 am »
+1

Intrigue
1. Masquerade
2. Bridge
3. Torturer
4. Steward
5. Upgrade
6. Minion
7. Replace
8. Swindler
9. Ironworks
10. Lurker
11. Nobles
12. Mining Village
13. Patrol
14. Conspirator
15. Mill
16. Courtier
17. Courtyard
18. Diplomat
19. Wishing Well
20. Pawn
21. Baron
22. Trading Post
23. Secret Passage
24. Shanty Town
25. Duke
26. Harem
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2019, 02:54:44 pm »
0

IMO upgrade should be 3rd. Maybe 2nd. Upgrade >> steward.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2019, 07:40:08 pm »
+2

I continue to be shocked at how underrated Conspirator is. It's a key card on the vast majority of boards.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2019, 01:17:11 am »
0

I continue to be shocked at how underrated Conspirator is. It's a key card on the vast majority of boards.
True that, a $7 card for $4 is pretty sweet.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2019, 09:35:33 am »
0

I continue to be shocked at how underrated Conspirator is. It's a key card on the vast majority of boards.
True that, a $7 card for $4 is pretty sweet.

Well, you also have to buy a bunch of enablers to get the $7 effect, but yeah, as I said, it's generally a key card.
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Awaclus

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2019, 12:43:33 pm »
+1

I continue to be shocked at how underrated Conspirator is. It's a key card on the vast majority of boards.

Without the stuff that's above it, it's just a $4 Duchess.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2019, 05:46:44 pm »
+1

I continue to be shocked at how underrated Conspirator is. It's a key card on the vast majority of boards.

Without the stuff that's above it, it's just a $4 Duchess.

So? Throne Room is a $4 Confusion without anything else.

Yes, there are some boards where Conspirator can't be activated. Those are not common.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 05:48:35 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Awaclus

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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2019, 07:57:00 pm »
+1

So? Throne Room is a $4 Confusion without anything else.

The difference is that Throne Room turns the stuff that's below it into a functional deck.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2019, 11:00:17 pm »
0

So? Throne Room is a $4 Confusion without anything else.

The difference is that Throne Room turns the stuff that's below it into a functional deck.

And what is your definition of a "functional deck"?
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2019, 02:58:31 am »
0

So? Throne Room is a $4 Confusion without anything else.

The difference is that Throne Room turns the stuff that's below it into a functional deck.

And what is your definition of a "functional deck"?

A deck where you can put Conspirator in and it won't just be a Duchess.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2019, 07:55:04 am »
0

I also don't get the Comspirator hype. It's just decent payload. Sure it's cool that it can be sort of a cheap double Peddler or whatever, but this isn't remotely gamebreaking. Throne Room is a Village and payload multiplier and so much more all in one card.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2019, 08:15:52 am »
0

I continue to be shocked at how underrated Conspirator is. It's a key card on the vast majority of boards.

Without the stuff that's above it, it's just a $4 Duchess.
That's like saying that Smithy without a village in an engine is like a dead card (hey, Conspirator is at least a terminal Silver!). There is always a risk of failing to match engine components.


I also don't get the Comspirator hype. It's just decent payload. Sure it's cool that it can be sort of a cheap double Peddler or whatever, but this isn't remotely gamebreaking. Throne Room is a Village and payload multiplier and so much more all in one card.
Nobody is arguing that Conspirator is overpowered or whatever. But to see it below Mining Village, a weak village plus one-shot, is pretty weird as Conspirator is, after Grand Market, the best payload in an engine after Grand Market.

I agree though that Throne Room is better as it is more versatile.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2019, 09:08:03 am »
0

I continue to be shocked at how underrated Conspirator is. It's a key card on the vast majority of boards.

Without the stuff that's above it, it's just a $4 Duchess.
That's like saying that Smithy without a village in an engine is like a dead card (hey, Conspirator is at least a terminal Silver!). There is always a risk of failing to match engine components.

RNG is not the point. The point is that you can remove Conspirator from any kingdom where it's present and the kingdom will play out largely the same, but if you remove Smithy, you might just completely invalidate the strongest strategy.


Conspirator is, after Grand Market, the best payload in an engine after Grand Market.

That's just nowhere near being true. Grand Market is an alright card in the absence of any of the actually powerful engine payloads, but it's by no means a great card. Even Conspirator is better than GM.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2019, 09:20:48 am »
0

The point is that you can remove Conspirator from any kingdom where it's present and the kingdom will play out largely the same,
I disagree.
While you are totally right that draw engines are the normal kind of engine, there are also engines with only cantrips, without cards that net draw.
For example a Kingdom with Village, Market, Workshop, a trasher and Conspirator behaves very differently without Conspirator.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2019, 09:28:45 am »
0

For example a Kingdom with Village, Market, Workshop, a trasher and Conspirator behaves very differently without Conspirator.

And how often does a kingdom with Village, Market, Workshop, a trasher and Conspirator come up again?
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2019, 09:33:50 am »
0

For example a Kingdom with Village, Market, Workshop, a trasher and Conspirator behaves very differently without Conspirator.

And how often does a kingdom with Village, Market, Workshop, a trasher and Conspirator come up again?
This is a nonsensical point as I could write the same thing with "Smithy" instead of "Conspirator".
I obviously just included the usual components that make an engine viable to illustrate that there are draw as well as cantrips engines.

I don't argue that the latter appear as often as the former or that they even are as good as the former. But they exist. Not ever Kingdom boils down to "Village variant plus Smithy variant".
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2019, 09:41:10 am »
0

For example a Kingdom with Village, Market, Workshop, a trasher and Conspirator behaves very differently without Conspirator.

And how often does a kingdom with Village, Market, Workshop, a trasher and Conspirator come up again?
This is a nonsensical point as I could write the same thing with "Smithy" instead of "Conspirator".
I obviously just included the usual components that make an engine viable to illustrate that there are draw as well as cantrips engines.

I don't argue that the latter appear as often as the former or that they even are as good as the former. But they exist. Not ever Kingdom boils down to "Village variant plus Smithy variant".

If I challenged you into a match where Conspirator is always present and the only rule is that I'm not allowed to buy or intentionally gain it, how many games out of six do you think you would win?
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2019, 02:53:00 pm »
+2

Seaside
1. Ambassador
2. Wharf
3. Ghost Ship
4. Outpost
5. Fishing Village
6. Caravan
7. Bazaar
8. Lookout
9. Smugglers
10. Lighthouse
11. Sea Hag
12. Salvager
13. Warehouse
14. Native Village
15. Tactician
16. Haven
17. Treasury
18. Island
19. Explorer
20. Cutpurse
21. Treasure Map
22. Pearl Diver
23. Embargo
24. Merchant Ship
25. Pirate Ship
26. Navigator
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2019, 03:13:49 pm »
0

The play stats for Mining Village and Conspirator are remarkably similar.

The winner gains at least one copy of Mining Village / Conspirator in 69% / 69% of games, and an average of 2.6 / 2.4 copies.  Games with Mining Village are slightly faster than average but end with slightly below-average VP.  Games with Conspirator are approximately average in game length and VP at game end.  Mining Village and Conspirator seem to have a very similar power level.  I think the biggest Intrigue misrank is Courtyard, which should probably be above Mining Village.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2019, 01:30:25 pm »
0

Seaside
1. Ambassador
2. Wharf
3. Ghost Ship
4. Outpost
5. Fishing Village
6. Caravan
7. Bazaar
8. Lookout
9. Smugglers
10. Lighthouse
11. Sea Hag
12. Salvager
13. Warehouse
14. Native Village
15. Tactician
16. Haven
17. Treasury
18. Island
19. Explorer
20. Cutpurse
21. Treasure Map
22. Pearl Diver
23. Embargo
24. Merchant Ship
25. Pirate Ship
26. Navigator

Some of these bottom ones seem odd to me.  Cutpurse, Island, and Embargo seem much more useable to me than Treasure map and Explorer. (Rank 18-23)
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2019, 01:39:39 pm »
0

Seaside
1. Ambassador
2. Wharf
3. Ghost Ship
4. Outpost
5. Fishing Village
6. Caravan
7. Bazaar
8. Lookout
9. Smugglers
10. Lighthouse
11. Sea Hag
12. Salvager
13. Warehouse
14. Native Village
15. Tactician
16. Haven
17. Treasury
18. Island
19. Explorer
20. Cutpurse
21. Treasure Map
22. Pearl Diver
23. Embargo
24. Merchant Ship
25. Pirate Ship
26. Navigator

Some of these bottom ones seem odd to me.  Cutpurse, Island, and Embargo seem much more useable to me than Treasure map and Explorer. (Rank 18-23)

Island is higher than TM or Explorer.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2019, 12:32:03 pm »
0

Seaside
1. Ambassador
2. Wharf
3. Ghost Ship
4. Outpost
5. Fishing Village
6. Caravan
7. Bazaar
8. Lookout
9. Smugglers
10. Lighthouse
11. Sea Hag
12. Salvager
13. Warehouse
14. Native Village
15. Tactician
16. Haven
17. Treasury
18. Island
19. Explorer
20. Cutpurse
21. Treasure Map
22. Pearl Diver
23. Embargo
24. Merchant Ship
25. Pirate Ship
26. Navigator

Some of these bottom ones seem odd to me.  Cutpurse, Island, and Embargo seem much more useable to me than Treasure map and Explorer. (Rank 18-23)

Island is higher than TM or Explorer.

Yes I can read.  I'm saying it seems much better, and that that general cluster of low ranked cards seems odd to me.
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Re: ThunderDominion Card List Results, 2019
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2019, 09:49:22 pm »
+1

Alchemy
1. Scrying Pool
2. Possession
3. Familiar
4. Apprentice
5. University
6. Vineyard
7. Alchemist
8. Apothecary
9. Golem
10. Herbalist
11. Transmute
12. Philosopher's Stone
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