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[jotheonah]

And I like my vote on joth. Their story for the game doesn't add up, so we've caught scum in a lie. I just don't see why it has to be more complicated than that

Because you’re wrong?

[Eevee]

Joth, I thought Mix was very scummy coming off day 1, so raerae's inquiry feels very relevant to me. If you can't come up with a convincing explanation for protecting him, I think I'm going to vote for you.

You have 24 hours.

[faust]

Joth, I thought Mix was very scummy coming off day 1, so raerae's inquiry feels very relevant to me. If you can't come up with a convincing explanation for protecting him, I think I'm going to vote for you.

You have 24 hours.

Why aren't you voting for him now?

[Eevee]

No particular reason, trying to be careful with my votes with such high portion of our population being scum. And I wanted to make what I imagined to be wa Taken joke, which, upon googling, isn’t even a line from that movie.

[Maxford]

I mean, you're the most experienced player here so you should know better!

Haha.. out of the two of us, yes, but many of the others have way more experience than me!!

I would say Space is about #6-7 on most experienced players on here

yes sorry, I meant, more experienced between the two of us. I didn't mean most experienced in a general sense

[raerae]

I guess what I don't quite see is that MiX is trying to protect joth when he actually voted for joth a lot, says he's okay with the wagon, and generally just flipflops all over the place. To me that is more indicative of scum changing reads on town opportunistically.

You attributing standard scum behavior to MiX is laughable. That cat wouldn't play expectedly if you paid him.

[faust]

I guess what I don't quite see is that MiX is trying to protect joth when he actually voted for joth a lot, says he's okay with the wagon, and generally just flipflops all over the place. To me that is more indicative of scum changing reads on town opportunistically.

You attributing standard scum behavior to MiX is laughable. That cat wouldn't play expectedly if you paid him.

So Space coming to the conclusion that joth is scum based on MiX's behaviour is fine, but when I come to a different conclusion then suddenly you can't possibly make conclusions based on his behaviour?

[SpaceAnemone]

I guess what I don't quite see is that MiX is trying to protect joth when he actually voted for joth a lot, says he's okay with the wagon, and generally just flipflops all over the place. To me that is more indicative of scum changing reads on town opportunistically.

You attributing standard scum behavior to MiX is laughable. That cat wouldn't play expectedly if you paid him.

So Space coming to the conclusion that joth is scum based on MiX's behaviour is fine, but when I come to a different conclusion then suddenly you can't possibly make conclusions based on his behaviour?

Wait.. that's not a fair representation of why I think Joth is scum at all.

I came to the conclusion Joth was scum based on D1 reads and what I think was a very minor scumslip. Early in the game, I was townreading MiX over his casual-sounding response to my "MixFaurd" joke, so that scumread on Joth was non-MiX-dependent.

Then I thought it was a bit off that MiX was jumping around making it difficult to get my preferred lynch through in the runup to the D1 deadline. I keep coming back to that because I was actually feeling quite cross at the time about how much time-wasting his flitting was causing for anyone else trying to keep up. I pointed out at #545 that it could even look like partner-protecting, which might be worth remembering later (i.e. if one of them later flips scum). You could have objected to that comment at the time, but didn't make any response, as far as I can remember.

Meanwhile, Joth, a claimed doctor, doesn't get NKd. That's another MiX-independent piece of evidence against Joth.

Then finally MiX flips scum thanks to a cop result. Going back to my "that might be telling for later" comment, I now have another piece of evidence that makes Joth look suspicious. Sure, Raerae could be right that MiX's behaviour could have been every bit as annoying and/or unpredictable as town as he was as traitor, but it's not the only thing making me vote Joth.

[faust]

Wait.. that's not a fair representation of why I think Joth is scum at all.

You say that and yet two thirds of the subsequent discussion talk abut MiX. I did not mean to imply that MiX is the only reason you're voting joth, I was merely drawing an analogy. MiX isn't the only reason I'm not voting joth either.

[faust]

And an aside, your explanation bring out another main flaw in your argument, your scumpartner-read D1 that you felt was validated by MiX flipping Traitor, despite the fact that Traitor-scum is a very different dynamic from scum who know each other.

[raerae]

I guess what I don't quite see is that MiX is trying to protect joth when he actually voted for joth a lot, says he's okay with the wagon, and generally just flipflops all over the place. To me that is more indicative of scum changing reads on town opportunistically.

You attributing standard scum behavior to MiX is laughable. That cat wouldn't play expectedly if you paid him.

So Space coming to the conclusion that joth is scum based on MiX's behaviour is fine, but when I come to a different conclusion then suddenly you can't possibly make conclusions based on his behaviour?

Space made conclusions based on actual stuff from MiX, you made conclusions based on what you expect Scum to do, not what you expect scum!MiX to do.

[Swowl]

Vote count 3.2   

Joth (3): Raerae, Joseph, SpaceAnemone
LaLight (1): faust

Not Voting ( 6 ): Raptor, Maxford, Joth, Lalight, Eevee, Galzria

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 3 ends on Thursday, November 14th at 6:53pm EST.

[SpaceAnemone]

And an aside, your explanation bring out another main flaw in your argument, your scumpartner-read D1 that you felt was validated by MiX flipping Traitor, despite the fact that Traitor-scum is a very different dynamic from scum who know each other.

Here's a post I made in response to a discussion with Galz, where I explicitly point out that I expect scum behaviour to be different given the traitor-scum dynamic:

There’s likely at least 1 scum between {Faust, Joseph}, else the first 4 people on Shraeye were all town (not impossible, but more unlikely than likely).

This sort of analysis is problematic. Like, there is no particular reason that I see why scum would be on the shraeye wagon, and early on the shraeye wagon. Sure, it's unlikely that a group of 4 contains no scum. But we already know that 2 of them are town. In the end it's just the chance that there's 1 scum in a group of 2, unless there is some compelling reason that i am missing for whyy scum is likely to be early on the shraeye wagon.

Thing is, you and I just approach things differently in general. Sure, what you say is as true as anything. But what I’m arguing is that practically speaking, that sort of thing just generally doesn’t happen. Yes, there’s no reason it can’t, it just doesn’t all that often.

How do you feel the typical wagon distribution will have changed given that three of the four of them (presumably?) didn't know the identity of the forth?

That issue dropped my confidence in my own wagon analysis coming into D2. I think the biggest driving factor causing the typical dispersal pattern of scums between wagons is that generally they don't want to be seen to be acting as a team... so if several of them don't know who not to team up with, then I think the dynamics might not look the same.

PPE 1

However, my particular point that you seemed to be responding to was about MiX protecting Joth. There's no complicating factor there, because given that we know MiX was the traitor, then he has full knowledge of whether the wagon he's distracting everyone from is on town or scum. In fact, he's the only player who knows that for all other players. So there's no problem with that reasoning. Why are you trying to cast doubt here?

[jotheonah]

Well I guess I ought to vote: LaLight.

I’ll be back later with more thoughts.

[faust]

However, my particular point that you seemed to be responding to was about MiX protecting Joth. There's no complicating factor there, because given that we know MiX was the traitor, then he has full knowledge of whether the wagon he's distracting everyone from is on town or scum. In fact, he's the only player who knows that for all other players. So there's no problem with that reasoning. Why are you trying to cast doubt here?

I believe a Traitor is much less likely to bus at all, and your story requires a significant amount of bussing even if it was later backpedaled.

[faust]

I guess what I don't quite see is that MiX is trying to protect joth when he actually voted for joth a lot, says he's okay with the wagon, and generally just flipflops all over the place. To me that is more indicative of scum changing reads on town opportunistically.

You attributing standard scum behavior to MiX is laughable. That cat wouldn't play expectedly if you paid him.

So Space coming to the conclusion that joth is scum based on MiX's behaviour is fine, but when I come to a different conclusion then suddenly you can't possibly make conclusions based on his behaviour?

Space made conclusions based on actual stuff from MiX, you made conclusions based on what you expect Scum to do, not what you expect scum!MiX to do.

I guess I am kind of confused as to why you think MiX would play particularly unexpectedly. It's not like he's Morgrim 2.0.

[Maxford]

Well I guess I ought to vote: LaLight.

I’ll be back later with more thoughts.

Ought to vote LaLight? Why?

[Eevee]

Maxford,who do you think is towny/scummy?

[LaLight]

Right, I have some things to say, right after vote: joth

[LaLight]

I don't get why faust is voting for me and doesn't seem to do any scumhunting work. You say Space's theory about MiX is incorrect and for a change you offer a lurker lynch? Without case?

[LaLight]

Eevee, why have you lost your pic, it's harder now

[LaLight]

ok, I think it's joth and faust. I also think joth is living unforgivably long with his claim never being backed up.

[Eevee]

Eevee, why have you lost your pic, it's harder now

No clue. I'll give it a day and a find a new one if it doesn't come back. Maybe there's an even cuter Eevee somewhere on the internet now.

@your last post, there are 3 mafia left.

[faust]

I don't get why faust is voting for me and doesn't seem to do any scumhunting work. You say Space's theory about MiX is incorrect and for a change you offer a lurker lynch? Without case?

It seems you got the gist of it.

[faust]

Request prod on Galzria

I had to llok at a vote count to even remember that he's in the game.