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[Swowl]

Welcome to M125: Poker Mafia!

Setup:
This game will use an original Semi-Open Set Up. No knowledge of anything to do with Cards/Poker/etc. is necessary to play this game. 

Mods:
Swan, EFHW (co-mod)

Player List:
1. faust - Mafia Goon
2. WCD - Vanilla Townie, killed Night 1
3. MiX - Traitor, lynched Day 2
4. Galzria - VT
5. ADK - Innocent Child, killed Night 2
6. XXRaptorSlayer96 - 1-Shot Cop, Killed Night 3
7. Joth - 2-Shot Doctor, Lynched Day 3
8. Joseph - VT
9. RaeRae - Skum GF
10. Shraeye - Vanilla Townie; Lynched Day 1
11. LaLight - Mason
12. Maxford - Mafia Goon
13. Space - Mason
14. Eevee - VT, Lynched final day.

Tagged: 2.7, Mail-mi, MCMC

Sub list:

Navigation:
Start Day 1 - http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19865.625
Start Day 2 - http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19865.75
Start Day 3 - http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19865.50



The Golden Rule:
This is a game. Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, never get personal, and focus on having fun. Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments.


The Standard Rules:
1. No communication between players outside of the game thread or shared QTs at any time. This includes passing references, jokes, or cases in other games or threads, whether in context or not.
2. If the game thread is locked, do not post. If you are unsure if something is locked, ask the mod by PM.
3. Direct or verbatim quoting of mod-provided information is strictly forbidden. Paraphrasing is okay. The exception is anything the MOD posts in the openly public Game Thread.
4. Actions with instructions that do not specify a game state will be resolved based on the order they were received. 
5. All night actions must be submitted within 24 hours of day ending.
6. Players must post at least once every 24 hours.
7. Do not edit or delete posts, ever. If you need to clarify or correct something, post again.
8. Invisible text, font size less than 10, and spoiler tags are not allowed.
9. Cryptography is not allowed.
10. The time between a lynch being reached and a flip being provided is called twilight. All players may continue posting during this time, including the lynched player.
11. Dead players may not post in thread or QT, except their Role QT. A lynched player is not "dead" until a flip has been provided.
12. Personal multimedia, such as video or audio recordings, are not allowed in the game thread.



The Voting Rules:
1. Votes should be in this format: Vote: Playername. Unambiguous nicknames are acceptable if they are already in common use. Your vote may not be counted if it cannot be picked up by an automated vote counter.
2. Unvotes should be in this format: unvote.
3. Unvotes are not required if changing your vote from one player to another.
4. You may vote: no lynch.
5. Lynches occur when a simple majority (rounded up) of living players is reached. Once reached, a lynch cannot be undone.
6. While I will do my best to count all votes the first time through, the best way to ensure your vote is not missed is by giving it a separate line of text in the post.
   Example Post:
      Jimmy is skummy.
      Vote: Jimmy
      Others should vote Jimmy.



The Rest:
1. The Brown text color is reserved for the MOD. Players may not use it, or anything that looks similar. To avoid confusion, please remove mod color if quoting the mod's posts.
2. If you have an issue or problem with the game, please PM the Mod. Do not post complaints in the game thread.
3. Mods make mistakes - please point them out gently. If they can be corrected, they will. If irreversible, they will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. If a mod error disadvantages one faction greatly, the game may be called off.
5. Ask all questions and make all requests directly to the Mod via PM or in your Role QT. Questions deemed as "universal" (defined as questions for which the answers should be available to all players) will be requested to be re-posted in the Game Thread and answered there.
6. A prod may be requested in the game thread by any player, after a player has gone 24 hours without posting in the game thread. Players are subject to replacement or Mod Killed after one prod.
7. All rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, as determined by the mod.
8. Each player will receive their own QT, regardless of role. Please use your best judgment when phrasing from your personal QT. If you are unsure whether it is allowed, please ask the MOD in your QT. 
9. If the game goes on for 3 days and 3 nights without a lynch or night kill, town wins.



Deadlines:
1. Days will last 7 IRL days.
2. Nights will last 2 IRL days… or as close to that as possible 😊

[Swowl]

Set Up Information


Flavor:
Trapped inside a small cardboard box for hundreds of years, in a galaxy located within several forgotten drawers inside your home... there is a war waging. The war in question is one between the Evil Kings and their Numerical Servants. The Numerical Servants have had their end with this war... all they want for now is their escape from the Deck. In order to prevent this escape, and prolong their rule, the Evil Kings have disguised themselves as Numerical Servants in hopes to force them to turn on one and other.
Will the Deck continued to be ruled by the Evil Kings, or will the Numerical Servants find them out and in turn... find their freedom?

1. Town will be flavored as Numerically-Aligned.
2. Mafia will be flavored as the Evil Kings.
3. Card numbers and suits will be assigned independent of alignment.

Additional Information:
1. Not everyone in this game will receive a Power Role.
2. This game will have 10 Town-Aligned Players.
3. This game will have 3 Mafia Players.
4. This game will have 1 Mafia Traitor.
5. Traitor knows Mafia.
6. The Traitor will inherit the ability to preform the Night Kill if they are the ONLY Mafia-Aligned player remaining in the the game.



Flavor:
1. Town will be flavored as Numerically-Aligned.
2. Mafia will be flavored as the Evil Kings.
3. Card numbers and suits will be assigned independent of alignment.


Town Win Condition:
You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated, or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Mafia Win Condition:
You win when all Town-Aligned players have been eliminated, or nothing can prevent this from happening.

[Swowl]

EFHW - I am not sure what color text you would like to use, so if you could post that when you have a second please

[Swowl]

Also - this game will not fire until the conclusion of M124.

[faust]

/inzies

[WestCoastDidds]

Hooray for Swowl!

I'm /in, too!

[MiX]

/in

[Galzria]

/in

[A Drowned Kernel]

/in

[silverspawn]

/in

Your avatar is not showing to me btw. Is that just me or everyone, and it is intentional?

[2.71828.....]

/in

Your avatar is not showing to me btw. Is that just me or everyone, and it is intentional?

Galzria is a faceless man now.

/tag

[Xxraptorslayer96]

/in

[Galzria]

/in

Your avatar is not showing to me btw. Is that just me or everyone, and it is intentional?

Galzria is a faceless man now.

/tag

Strange... I still see it, as does Swan right now...

[Uncleeurope]

I have only ever seen it periodically. I see it now, but didn't see it when silver posted that.

I have been trying to figure out why for the longest time.

One of the greatest mysteries of our time.

[WestCoastDidds]

Glaz and Ashersky pictures both load significantly slower than others for me, and sometimes they never come up at all. Weird.

[silverspawn]

/in

Your avatar is not showing to me btw. Is that just me or everyone, and it is intentional?

Galzria is a faceless man now.

/tag

Strange... I still see it, as does Swan right now...

Didn't you do something to fix it after I asked? Because it shows up now.

[Galzria]

/in

Your avatar is not showing to me btw. Is that just me or everyone, and it is intentional?

Galzria is a faceless man now.

/tag

Strange... I still see it, as does Swan right now...

Didn't you do something to fix it after I asked? Because it shows up now.

I’ve been told by a few people that it goes in phases: sometimes there, sometimes not...

I have only ever seen it periodically. I see it now, but didn't see it when silver posted that.

I have been trying to figure out why for the longest time.

One of the greatest mysteries of our time.

One of the greatest mysteries of our time.

[jotheonah]

/in

[Joseph2302]

/in

[EFHW]

tag

[SpaceAnemone]

Hey :-) This sounds reasonably newbie-friendly, right? Can I bring in a newbie friend?

[raerae]

Me and shraeye be in. That grammar is entirely correct.

[shraeye]

Indeed

[jotheonah]

Hey :-) This sounds reasonably newbie-friendly, right? Can I bring in a newbie friend?

I'mma go ahead and say "Yes please!"

[LaLight]

/in

[WestCoastDidds]

/in

Hooray!  I have missed you!!

[shraeye]

Yay LaLight!

[LaLight]

/in

Hooray!  I have missed you!!

Same! I quit my job which was really killing me these last months and I feel social again, at least for now

[Maxford]

Hi,

I'm a newbie whom Space dragged here. Happy to meet you all!

/in

[SpaceAnemone]

/in too, assuming you don't mind me playing at the same time as Maxford :-)

I've tried to fill him in on how stuff works on here, and when the game starts, we'll just ban talking about mafia in person...

[Galzria]

Just bumped Swan - we're both at a work conference for the next few days - he'll update sign ups soon

[Swowl]

Updated!

One spot left! Super pumped!!!

[Swowl]

/in too, assuming you don't mind me playing at the same time as Maxford :-)

I've tried to fill him in on how stuff works on here, and when the game starts, we'll just ban talking about mafia in person...

Shea - noob friendly x 1000. It wasn’t that long ago i was the new one, so more the merrier!

[WestCoastDidds]

Swowl, can we wait a bit until Glooble's game is down the road a bit? I don't know that I can play 2 simultaneously, but I really want to play this one!

[shraeye]

I support a delayed start (a bit delayed)

[Swowl]

Yep yep yep!

how long would others like to wait?

[SpaceAnemone]

Yep yep yep!

how long would others like to wait?

I may be VLA for work from about the 18th to the 24th, but I'm still waiting to find out if I'm going or not...

[Eevee]

Flavorbaited, /in.

Fine with starting whenever.

[Swowl]

Flavorbaited, /in.

Fine with starting whenever.

Yesssss!

I was just thinking “how is ever not signing up for this one?”

Ok all let me try to pound out a start date and I’ll get back later today. I think probz kind of wait until MTG game is down the road a ways but open for opinions

[popsofctown]

Lynch all the town

[WestCoastDidds]

I'm so excited for this game!  Thank you for waiting a few minutes before we start and Eevee, I am totally psyched to meet you.  You come highly recommended.

Also, we sold our house today so Old Fashioneds on a Tuesday. What I need is Galz to make some more interesting, but equally boozy drinks!

[Galzria]

I'm so excited for this game!  Thank you for waiting a few minutes before we start and Eevee, I am totally psyched to meet you.  You come highly recommended.

Also, we sold our house today so Old Fashioneds on a Tuesday. What I need is Galz to make some more interesting, but equally boozy drinks!

2 oz Lemonhart 151
2 oz Plantation Jamaican Rum (2007)
1/2 oz Cinnamon Syrup
2 Dashes Firewater Bitters

[raerae]

I'm so excited for this game!  Thank you for waiting a few minutes before we start and Eevee, I am totally psyched to meet you.  You come highly recommended.

Also, we sold our house today so Old Fashioneds on a Tuesday. What I need is Galz to make some more interesting, but equally boozy drinks!

Woot!!!!

[Eevee]

I'm so excited for this game!  Thank you for waiting a few minutes before we start and Eevee, I am totally psyched to meet you.  You come highly recommended.

Also, we sold our house today so Old Fashioneds on a Tuesday. What I need is Galz to make some more interesting, but equally boozy drinks!

Oh my!

Likewise happy to meet you and heartiest congratulations on the sale. I’m also cautiously excited for the game, been a long time since I last played. I hope I can keep up.

[jotheonah]

Eevee! My work has started sending me to Helsinki once a year. I'll likely be there in June. Are you anywhere near there?

[mail-mi]

/tag

[Eevee]

I live in Helsinki! Sending you a pm.

[Swowl]

vote it up for the start date.
I guessssss we could start later (Like November), but I would rather not if we don't have to!

[LaLight]

I am ready to start

[faust]

I would vote for an earlier date than the ones presented if that were an option.

[Joseph2302]

I would vote for an earlier date than the ones presented if that were an option.

Ditto. I'm away for a few days in mid-November, so would prefer to be well into the game (and probably dead) by then

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote: Joseph

Let's get that out there nice and early :-P

[Swowl]

OK well I am just like teeming with anticipation so unless someone speaks up I am gonna say PMs go out on the 18th.


EFHW - Does that work for your schedule?

[Joseph2302]

Vote: Joseph

Let's get that out there nice and early :-P

Vote: Space for real life mafia 1

[raerae]

Can I just request no Halloween deadlines if possible? We've got a very fearsome dragon to show off and simply can't be distracted.

[mcmcsalot]

/tag to follow along with this wonderful cast of characters!

[WestCoastDidds]

OK well I am just like teeming with anticipation so unless someone speaks up I am gonna say PMs go out on the 18th.


EFHW - Does that work for your schedule?

Yahooo!!!

[EFHW]

OK well I am just like teeming with anticipation so unless someone speaks up I am gonna say PMs go out on the 18th.


EFHW - Does that work for your schedule?

Sure!

[Swowl]

Can I just request no Halloween deadlines if possible? We've got a very fearsome dragon to show off and simply can't be distracted.

yeah as me and all of my "twins" that are playing this game host a haunted house for the hood I can go ahead and say that if a DL lands on Halloween (October 31st), I will extend that one week by 24 hours

Good note!

[Swowl]

OK I think that about covers it then.

Game will start some time on 10/18.

Roles will go out tomorrow night (24ish hours from now).

[Swowl]

Thread is locked (except for tags)


If a MOD would be kind enough to move the thread pretty please

[Swowl]

PMs are going out right now!

Please confirm your role within 24 hours if possible.

[Swowl]

All PMs are out! Please confirm as soon as you can.

Once everyone has confirmed I will give a 24 hour heads up for game start.

[Swowl]

Still waiting on 1 more confirmation.

[Swowl]

All Roles are confirmed.

Game will open later today. Aiming for 6pm Forum Time

[Swowl]

To most, a playing card box is nothing more than a small container. For others, that small box is a home... or in some cases... a prison!

In a small room, behind closed doors, in hushed voices, the Kings gather...

"The uprising needs to be brought to an end immediately!"
   "We know this you fool, but how do we stop it? There numbers are far greater than ours!"
"Do not worry brothers... I have a plan. All we have to do is blend in, and let them tear each other apart."
   "Yes, listen here... this is how we will do it..."



Day 1 Begins Now! It will end at 1:40pm (EST) on October 28th, 2019.

With 14 players alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Not voting (15): faust, WCD, MiX, Galzria, ADK, XXRaptorSlayer96, Joth, Joseph, RaeRae, Shraeye, LaLight, Maxford, SpaceAnemone, Eevee

Day 1 ends on October 28th at 1:40pm EST.

[Galzria]

vote: Raptor

I’m not scum, therefore he must be.

[MiX]

It will end at 1:40pm (EST) on October 21st, 2019.

Damn, that was the fastest and lurkest D1 ever. Surely we can do better tomorrow?

I've been reading raptor's most recent game (M117), he was scum and was VLA for a bunch of IRL reasons so I don't know much. I do know that a bunch of people that are here were there, so maybe you guys can help.

Hello Maxford! I saw your pronoun is he, can you introduce yourself and tell us your mafia history/experience?

Vote: shraeye, stop no lynching

[MiX]

vote: Raptor

I’m not scum, therefore he must be.

Actually while you're here can you brief me in on raptor's meta?

[Eevee]

Hello to old and new friends alike!

I’m a he and most definitely town.

[LaLight]

Heyyyyy awesome to see old and new faces!

@Space, I have missed you so much, awesome to be together in a game again!

vote: Joseph2302

[Joseph2302]

Vote: space
For RL mafia

[Joseph2302]

It will end at 1:40pm (EST) on October 21st, 2019.

Damn, that was the fastest and lurkest D1 ever. Surely we can do better tomorrow?

There's also (15) people not voting but only 14 players in the game

[MiX]

It will end at 1:40pm (EST) on October 21st, 2019.

Damn, that was the fastest and lurkest D1 ever. Surely we can do better tomorrow?

There's also (15) people not voting but only 14 players in the game

I was really close to pointing that out, but it looked like I was criticizing swan too much. I already do that when we play, why do that more, was my thought process.

Vote: space
For RL mafia

Good job not saying you're the SK.

Heyyyyy awesome to see old and new faces!

@Space, I have missed you so much, awesome to be together in a game again!

vote: Joseph2302

Hi LaLight. What's your scummeta? I forgot.

Hello to old and new friends alike!

I’m a he and most definitely town.

I forgot that I don't know you but I've read some of your games (I think?) and I remember a very nice person, kinda like a genderswap version of EFHW IIRC???

What's your townmeta?

[Joseph2302]

Also, I'm the one shot bulletproof SK

[LaLight]

I really don't know my scum meta, a lot of time passed since I played, so yeah

[Eevee]

EHFW is certainly a flattering comparison, I'll gladly take that.

I play so rarely these days, I don't think I have an established meta for either alignment. Generally I'd say scumEevee would be more measured than townEevee, who might be more rash or even impulsive. Basically, scumEevee never posts without rereading their post with at least some thought to it, while townEevee might just fire away, having nothing to hide.

Also townEevee is nicer, scumEevee might resort to some dirty emotional manipulation or what have you. Buddying I don't think is an alignment-tell for me, although the scum variety is more purposeful and opportunistic.

ScumEevee wouldn't post this because hypothesizing your scum-meta is a classic scumtell (I think?)

TownEevee doesn't mind and fires away.

[Eevee]

I find discussion's like "how to catch me" and such much preferred to pure RVS as far as kickstarting the game goes.

Mix, how do you differ depending on alignment?

[raerae]

Hello to old and new friends alike!

I’m a he and most definitely town.

1) I am so happy you're here!

B) vote: shraeye

[jotheonah]

Hi everybody!

I'm here.

Um, who here plays poker? Really feels like it's going to be important to know the flavor.

[MiX]

I find discussion's like "how to catch me" and such much preferred to pure RVS as far as kickstarting the game goes.

Mix, how do you differ depending on alignment?

As town I go into the fray get a bunch of votes for being proactive and "aggressive", then I try to maintain the very awkward balance of being top wagon without being lynched until town decides I'm not a good lynch and we lynch someone else, where I'm often voting, because I vote everyone and everywhere all the time.

I've been scum once and basically I did that but the day ended with me at L-1 because we no lynched.

After D1 I tend to backoff and work on some VCAs that easily take around 1 ingame day, then I nail the rest of the scumteam. I think.

It's pretty hard for me to describe my non-D1 self...

Hi everybody!

I'm here.

Um, who here plays poker? Really feels like it's going to be important to know the flavor.

It's, uh, not very important. Except to create fakeclaims, then it might.

[MiX]

Hello to old and new friends alike!

I’m a he and most definitely town.

1) I am so happy you're here!

B) vote: shraeye

Vote: raerae

[Eevee]

Discussing the importance of flavor before we have to seems unnecessary. People might slip up and accidentally reveal something, scum is likely going to be hunting for pr's N1. I'm familiar with the subject matter,  so we should totally keep me alive until the flavor becomes relevant, right?

[raerae]

It's, uh, not very important. Except to create fakeclaims, then it might.

What makes you think that?

[raerae]

Discussing the importance of flavor before we have to seems unnecessary. People might slip up and accidentally reveal something, scum is likely going to be hunting for pr's N1. I'm familiar with the subject matter,  so we should totally keep me alive until the flavor becomes relevant, right?

Starting off the game with a blatant lie, I see.  Interesting.

[MiX]

It's, uh, not very important. Except to create fakeclaims, then it might.

What makes you think that?

Certain cards are more likely to be specific PRs than not. This is really not something town should talk about before a PR claims their flavor, oh and PRs should always claim flavor.

Discussing the importance of flavor before we have to seems unnecessary. People might slip up and accidentally reveal something, scum is likely going to be hunting for pr's N1. I'm familiar with the subject matter,  so we should totally keep me alive until the flavor becomes relevant, right?

I thought you were joth with this post so town points.

Discussing the importance of flavor before we have to seems unnecessary. People might slip up and accidentally reveal something, scum is likely going to be hunting for pr's N1. I'm familiar with the subject matter,  so we should totally keep me alive until the flavor becomes relevant, right?

Starting off the game with a blatant lie, I see.  Interesting.

Hmm what?

[jotheonah]

I was obviously making a joke about flavor? Because poker doesn't really have lore or a plot, so...

I think it's weird that people took it seriously.

[raerae]

It's, uh, not very important. Except to create fakeclaims, then it might.

What makes you think that?

Certain cards are more likely to be specific PRs than not. This is really not something town should talk about before a PR claims their flavor, oh and PRs should always claim flavor.

I disagree with basically everything you say here.  PRs don't have to claim a dang thing until they're good and ready and then they can claim whatever they want. 

Discussing the importance of flavor before we have to seems unnecessary. People might slip up and accidentally reveal something, scum is likely going to be hunting for pr's N1. I'm familiar with the subject matter,  so we should totally keep me alive until the flavor becomes relevant, right?

Starting off the game with a blatant lie, I see.  Interesting.

Hmm what?

It's just a joke, Eevee knows his way around a poker hand.

[MiX]

I was obviously making a joke about flavor? Because poker doesn't really have lore or a plot, so...

I think it's weird that people took it seriously.

I think you framed it too seriously. Also I do think flavor is important, there's only 52 flavor roles, and not all of them are equally likely to have PRs.

I disagree with basically everything you say

This is not news to me, or hopefully anyone now that I say this.

It's just a joke, Eevee knows his way around a poker hand.

I'm getting wooshed by jokes this game I guess.

[MiX]

This is not a very good vote.

Vote: Joseph

[A Drowned Kernel]

I don't see any reason to think that prs are tied to specific cards but more importantly people should stop talking about it

vote: Joseph for forgetting to do his SK joke

[SpaceAnemone]

@Space, I have missed you so much, awesome to be together in a game again!

Hello old friend <3

Great to see you too!

[SpaceAnemone]

Discussing the importance of flavor before we have to seems unnecessary. People might slip up and accidentally reveal something, scum is likely going to be hunting for pr's N1. I'm familiar with the subject matter,  so we should totally keep me alive until the flavor becomes relevant, right?

Starting off the game with a blatant lie, I see.  Interesting.

More of a blatant understatement, no?

Hi Eevee!! Good to play with you again! On the topic of scum!Eevee (from another post I'm not quoting) weren't we scumbuddies one time? ISTR you were quite flustered at being scummy :-P

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote: WCD for flying under the radar :-P

[WestCoastDidds]

Space!  I've missed you!  Hello!  I have been teaching the students to think, but that is indeed under the radar. (Solidarity with Shraeye!)

MiX, I get lots of Eevee comparisons, so my guess is that he will fall into the "he really is that nice" category.

Joth, your joke made me laugh. Raerae, LaLi....love you! Galz, I continue to wonder when we will drink together.

The one and only time I played with Raptor he was scum and got lynched...and ya'll know I most certainly do not have mad skilz, so there's that.

[faust]

I find discussion's like "how to catch me" and such much preferred to pure RVS as far as kickstarting the game goes.

With a Pokéball, obviously.

[SpaceAnemone]

I find discussion's like "how to catch me" and such much preferred to pure RVS as far as kickstarting the game goes.

With a Pokéball, obviously.

Faust is making logical sense! That's a town tell for him :-)

[MiX]

I find discussion's like "how to catch me" and such much preferred to pure RVS as far as kickstarting the game goes.

With a Pokéball, obviously.

Faust is making logical sense! That's a town tell for him :-)

This is yet another joke right?

Also, while you're here, can you tell me what you know of Maxford? And raptor, while you're at it.

[Maxford]

Hello Maxford! I saw your pronoun is he, can you introduce yourself and tell us your mafia history/experience?

Hi Mix, Hi everyone,

Yes I go by "he" pronouns, and I'm completely new to online mafia, still figuring out how everything works, what all the acronyms mean, etc. But I'm definitely excited to be a part of this!

[MiX]

Hello Maxford! I saw your pronoun is he, can you introduce yourself and tell us your mafia history/experience?

Hi Mix, Hi everyone,

Yes I go by "he" pronouns, and I'm completely new to online mafia, still figuring out how everything works, what all the acronyms mean, etc. But I'm definitely excited to be a part of this!

How many games of mafia have you played?

[SpaceAnemone]

Faust is making logical sense! That's a town tell for him :-)

This is yet another joke right?

It's a half-joke. I think when faust's scum, the tell is that I don't always find him as logical and consistent as when he's town. I'm sure I've mentioned it several times.

Also, while you're here, can you tell me what you know of Maxford? And raptor, while you're at it.

Maxford is a lovely person I met at choir a couple of months ago. Mostly we're each other's board game fix :-) He's smart, logical, doesn't enjoy coop games as much as competitive ones, kind of has a penchant for evil, and I really have no idea what his meta is going to be like...

As for Raptor.. I've played a game (or two?) with him before, but I'm sure there are better-qualified to describe him.

[SpaceAnemone]

Hello Maxford! I saw your pronoun is he, can you introduce yourself and tell us your mafia history/experience?

Hi Mix, Hi everyone,

Yes I go by "he" pronouns, and I'm completely new to online mafia, still figuring out how everything works, what all the acronyms mean, etc. But I'm definitely excited to be a part of this!

How did you manage to post on here while carrying on a FB conversation with me at the same time, while I wasn't managing to finish my post? :-P

Also, what are we going to do about the fact that people are likely to start calling you Max, which will be massively confusing for me since that's not your name, and confusing for people in here who might be called Max or Mix...? Can we call you Ford, like in H2G2? :-)

[MiX]

Hello Maxford! I saw your pronoun is he, can you introduce yourself and tell us your mafia history/experience?

Hi Mix, Hi everyone,

Yes I go by "he" pronouns, and I'm completely new to online mafia, still figuring out how everything works, what all the acronyms mean, etc. But I'm definitely excited to be a part of this!

How did you manage to post on here while carrying on a FB conversation with me at the same time, while I wasn't managing to finish my post? :-P

Also, what are we going to do about the fact that people are likely to start calling you Max, which will be massively confusing for me since that's not your name, and confusing for people in here who might be called Max or Mix...? Can we call you Ford, like in H2G2? :-)

Omg omg omg using private info ingame omg omg omg

I'm fine with ford, also wish there was anything else in my name, but how can you hate something that is its own abreviation?

My current vote isn't good but this time it's not my fault so it should stay.

[SpaceAnemone]

Omg omg omg using private info ingame omg omg omg

Huh? I didn't use anything I shouldn't have, did I? I don't think it's much different from me playing in the same games as Haddock back in the day...

[Maxford]

Hello Maxford! I saw your pronoun is he, can you introduce yourself and tell us your mafia history/experience?

Hi Mix, Hi everyone,

Yes I go by "he" pronouns, and I'm completely new to online mafia, still figuring out how everything works, what all the acronyms mean, etc. But I'm definitely excited to be a part of this!

How many games of mafia have you played?

As in, real life mafia? I've played a lot of Avalon and Werewolves type games (too many to keep count), but playing it online seems a whole different story.

Also, while you're here, can you tell me what you know of Maxford? And raptor, while you're at it.

Maxford is a lovely person I met at choir a couple of months ago. Mostly we're each other's board game fix :-) He's smart, logical, doesn't enjoy coop games as much as competitive ones, kind of has a penchant for evil, and I really have no idea what his meta is going to be like...

Thanks for the compliments Space! I admit I do have a penchant for evil...

Hello Maxford! I saw your pronoun is he, can you introduce yourself and tell us your mafia history/experience?

Hi Mix, Hi everyone,

Yes I go by "he" pronouns, and I'm completely new to online mafia, still figuring out how everything works, what all the acronyms mean, etc. But I'm definitely excited to be a part of this!

How did you manage to post on here while carrying on a FB conversation with me at the same time, while I wasn't managing to finish my post? :-P

Also, what are we going to do about the fact that people are likely to start calling you Max, which will be massively confusing for me since that's not your name, and confusing for people in here who might be called Max or Mix...? Can we call you Ford, like in H2G2? :-)

Ford is fine, but is Maxford really that much longer to type to warrant the use of a nickname?

[MiX]

Omg omg omg using private info ingame omg omg omg

Huh? I didn't use anything I shouldn't have, did I? I don't think it's much different from me playing in the same games as Haddock back in the day...

It's not, I'm joking, if you couldn't tell by the "omg".


Ford's answers help, I guess he's as experienced as I was. And yes, maxford is too long, at least when ppl will inevitably call you max.

[SpaceAnemone]

maxford is too long, at least when ppl will inevitably call you max.

Take this game as a sample: some people can't even manage the vowels in "people" ;-)

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

[MiX]

maxford is too long, at least when ppl will inevitably call you max.

Take this game as a sample: some people can't even manage the vowels in "people" ;-)

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

Dream team! I think.

Space, got any insights that you wanna share or any early votes? I know you don't do much D1 but still.

[shraeye]

I don't see any reason to think that prs are tied to specific cards but more importantly people should stop talking about it

I'm the seven of spades

[shraeye]

Hello Maxford! I saw your pronoun is he, can you introduce yourself and tell us your mafia history/experience?

Hi Mix, Hi everyone,

Yes I go by "he" pronouns, and I'm completely new to online mafia, still figuring out how everything works, what all the acronyms mean, etc. But I'm definitely excited to be a part of this!

TBLPD

[shraeye]

It seems like everybody's making jokes that get misunderstood.  Raeraes joke is better than mine.

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: shraeye

[shraeye]

 

[SpaceAnemone]

Space, got any insights that you wanna share or any early votes? I know you don't do much D1 but still.

I'm the D1 lemon :-)

I've RVS'd WCD already, so I'm good!

[SpaceAnemone]

Hrm.. lest I get accused of being too fluffy a lemon, let me channel the anti-Awaclus here! The people I'm probably not voting for D1 are:

1) Lalight because it's been forever since we've been in a game together. I can also generally read him.
2) Maxford for a newbie pass and also because I need him to live long enough to see what his meta looks like.
3) faust because he's obliged to be useful even as scum.
4) Eevee, because he'll make the place happier :-)

That means my current D1 lynch pool is people numbered 2-9 on the signup post.

[faust]

It seems like everybody's making jokes that get misunderstood.  Raeraes joke is better than mine.

It's fine, without ppl misunderstanding jokes we would get other ppl to explain them, and we all know that's the best part of a joke.

[faust]

Vote: ADK

[faust]

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

How much do you want it though? This is a clear lack of enthusiasm:

The people I'm probably not voting for D1 are:

[...] Maxford [...] faust

[SpaceAnemone]

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

How much do you want it though? This is a clear lack of enthusiasm:

The people I'm probably not voting for D1 are:

[...] Maxford [...] faust

Dang, you're in a different timezone now, aren't you? I should've gone to sleep by now.

Anyway, even if there's a MiXfaurd team, I only need to lynch one of you per day, and MiX is conveniently not on my no-D1-lynch list. So you'd better coach him carefully not to scumslip :-P

[shraeye]

It seems like everybody's making jokes that get misunderstood.  Raeraes joke is better than mine.

It's fine, without ppl misunderstanding jokes we would get other ppl to explain them, and we all know that's the best part of a joke.

It is!! That's because explanations always enhance the humor inherent in a joke.

[raerae]

maxford is too long, at least when ppl will inevitably call you max.

Take this game as a sample: some people can't even manage the vowels in "people" ;-)

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

Seems solid, I'm in.

[raerae]

It seems like everybody's making jokes that get misunderstood.  Raeraes joke is better than mine.

Eerry single time.

[WestCoastDidds]

It seems like everybody's making jokes that get misunderstood.  Raeraes joke is better than mine.

Eerry single time.

Obvi

[raerae]

Hrm.. lest I get accused of being too fluffy a lemon, let me channel the anti-Awaclus here! The people I'm probably not voting for D1 are:

1) Lalight because it's been forever since we've been in a game together. I can also generally read him.
2) Maxford for a newbie pass and also because I need him to live long enough to see what his meta looks like.
3) faust because he's obliged to be useful even as scum.
4) Eevee, because he'll make the place happier :-)

That means my current D1 lynch pool is people numbered 2-9 on the signup post.

So I can get behind the other three but I'm not sure I love your "faust is helpful!" reasoning. The others are emotional but that one is just sort of random, sandwiched in the middle, and (watch out, my bias is showing) not that true. Is this a hard list or does it have some bend?

[MiX]

Hrm.. lest I get accused of being too fluffy a lemon, let me channel the anti-Awaclus here! The people I'm probably not voting for D1 are:

1) Lalight because it's been forever since we've been in a game together. I can also generally read him.
2) Maxford for a newbie pass and also because I need him to live long enough to see what his meta looks like.
3) faust because he's obliged to be useful even as scum.
4) Eevee, because he'll make the place happier :-)

That means my current D1 lynch pool is people numbered 2-9 on the signup post.

So I can get behind the other three but I'm not sure I love your "faust is helpful!" reasoning. The others are emotional but that one is just sort of random, sandwiched in the middle, and (watch out, my bias is showing) not that true. Is this a hard list or does it have some bend?

That's just part of the "don't lynch faust D1" thinking which is pretty much correct and a lot of people follow.

Vote: ADK

Unexplained or looking for people to question the reason so you can explain afterwards?

[Eevee]

Hrm.. lest I get accused of being too fluffy a lemon, let me channel the anti-Awaclus here! The people I'm probably not voting for D1 are:

1) Lalight because it's been forever since we've been in a game together. I can also generally read him.
2) Maxford for a newbie pass and also because I need him to live long enough to see what his meta looks like.
3) faust because he's obliged to be useful even as scum.
4) Eevee, because he'll make the place happier :-)

That means my current D1 lynch pool is people numbered 2-9 on the signup post.

I'm generally in favor of just lynching who you think is scummiest for accountability and future vote analysis purposes, but in this case I'm also not lynching Maxford day 1 in their first online game unless there is strong reason to, I also agree faust is not a lucrative day 1 lynch because he is such a work horse - and I'm 50% of the "excluded for pleasure of playing with" pool (and I know I'm town so SA isn't protecting their scumbuddy IN MY CASE at least). I also know SA is nice like this and says things like this either alignment.
 

Vote: LL in case SpaceAnemone IS protecting their scumbuddy with the list.

[SpaceAnemone]

So I can get behind the other three but I'm not sure I love your "faust is helpful!" reasoning. The others are emotional but that one is just sort of random, sandwiched in the middle, and (watch out, my bias is showing) not that true. Is this a hard list or does it have some bend?

If any of them scumslips, I'm all over that, so there's at least that much bend :-) And it's just a D1 list... I hope my D2 list will have more logic in it, assuming I get that far.

I also have a faust bias, because while he can be quite the grumpypants in some games, he's really nice IRL. Also I really like autism-friendly logic analysis stuff, and he plays that way too.

PPE 2: I get some support for my faust position!

@Maxford, did I remember to explain "PPE" to you in this context?

@everyone else: do we have a list of common acronyms somewhere around here?

[MiX]

So I can get behind the other three but I'm not sure I love your "faust is helpful!" reasoning. The others are emotional but that one is just sort of random, sandwiched in the middle, and (watch out, my bias is showing) not that true. Is this a hard list or does it have some bend?

If any of them scumslips, I'm all over that, so there's at least that much bend :-) And it's just a D1 list... I hope my D2 list will have more logic in it, assuming I get that far.

I also have a faust bias, because while he can be quite the grumpypants in some games, he's really nice IRL. Also I really like autism-friendly logic analysis stuff, and he plays that way too.

PPE 2: I get some support for my faust position!

@Maxford, did I remember to explain "PPE" to you in this context?

@everyone else: do we have a list of common acronyms somewhere around here?

I remember seeing it somewhere, it should be...this

[Joseph2302]

If Faust is scum, should become obvious as they usually just get night killed if town

That's my super good logic that works surprisingly often

[jotheonah]

It seems like everybody's making jokes that get misunderstood.  Raeraes joke is better than mine.

It's fine, without ppl misunderstanding jokes we would get other ppl to explain them, and we all know that's the best part of a joke.

It is!! That's because explanations always enhance the humor inherent in a joke.

These posts are part of an extended running gag wherein faust and shraeye treat explaining a joke as enhancing its humor value when in fact the generally-accepted wisdom is the opposite.

[jotheonah]

Vote: WCD

This town situation should really be her jam. Everyone’s being nice to each other. Real love fest. But she’s not posting a ton. Maybe she’s shy cause she finally rolled scum.

[WestCoastDidds]

Vote: WCD

This town situation should really be her jam. Everyone’s being nice to each other. Real love fest. But she’s not posting a ton. Maybe she’s shy cause she finally rolled scum.

It is my jam! but yesterday I was busy from the moment the game started until I woke up just now. We are interviewing folks for a new t/t position, and I’m the chair of the search committee, so I had to be uber-present irl. But nope, I am continuing my long streak of green-text! Town WCD is the best WCD because I can be as fluffy as I want to be! Woot!

I share a somewhat similar position to Space About faust. He’s a grumpasaurous sometimes, but he’s also really funny. I like playing with him. He’s also one of the few players who helps me get better by actually spelling out avenues of productive thought.

Agreed on a Maxfotd (hi!) D1 pass.

I’m not sure it’s super useful for me to spell out the other folks who I generally don’t want to see strung up because I like playing with...I think they probably know who they are and if they are scum they are already counting on my general goodwill and/or naïveté.

Vote:Joseph is never a bad idea

[WestCoastDidds]

These posts are part of an extended running gag wherein faust and shraeye treat explaining a joke as enhancing its humor value when in fact the generally-accepted wisdom is the opposite.

And a way better alternative to when they fight! The fighting makes me nervous. Which I think is really interesting because I was a debater and then a debate coach for years and years. So thumbs up on shraust (or fauseye?) harmony!

[A Drowned Kernel]

These posts are part of an extended running gag wherein faust and shraeye treat explaining a joke as enhancing its humor value when in fact the generally-accepted wisdom is the opposite.

And a way better alternative to when they fight! The fighting makes me nervous. Which I think is really interesting because I was a debater and then a debate coach for years and years. So thumbs up on shraust (or fauseye?) harmony!

This game could use less harmony if you ask me. Let's get some wagons going

[Joseph2302]

Vote: WCD

This town situation should really be her jam. Everyone’s being nice to each other. Real love fest. But she’s not posting a ton. Maybe she’s shy cause she finally rolled scum.

It is my jam! but yesterday I was busy from the moment the game started until I woke up just now. We are interviewing folks for a new t/t position, and I’m the chair of the search committee, so I had to be uber-present irl. But nope, I am continuing my long streak of green-text! Town WCD is the best WCD because I can be as fluffy as I want to be! Woot!

I share a somewhat similar position to Space About faust. He’s a grumpasaurous sometimes, but he’s also really funny. I like playing with him. He’s also one of the few players who helps me get better by actually spelling out avenues of productive thought.

Agreed on a Maxfotd (hi!) D1 pass.

I’m not sure it’s super useful for me to spell out the other folks who I generally don’t want to see strung up because I like playing with...I think they probably know who they are and if they are scum they are already counting on my general goodwill and/or naïveté.

Vote:Joseph is never a bad idea

Vote: WCD
Obv!scum move, I haven't been scum in any game with you, as I haven't been scum on here for about 2 years

[raerae]

These posts are part of an extended running gag wherein faust and shraeye treat explaining a joke as enhancing its humor value when in fact the generally-accepted wisdom is the opposite.

And a way better alternative to when they fight! The fighting makes me nervous. Which I think is really interesting because I was a debater and then a debate coach for years and years. So thumbs up on shraust (or fauseye?) harmony!

This game could use less harmony if you ask me. Let's get some wagons going

Well, if you insist...

Vote: ADK

[Eevee]

Vote: raerae I think ADK's post was towny.

[faust]

It seems like everybody's making jokes that get misunderstood.  Raeraes joke is better than mine.

It's fine, without ppl misunderstanding jokes we would get other ppl to explain them, and we all know that's the best part of a joke.

It is!! That's because explanations always enhance the humor inherent in a joke.

These posts are part of an extended running gag wherein faust and shraeye treat explaining a joke as enhancing its humor value when in fact the generally-accepted wisdom is the opposite.

It's actually a running gag on main f.ds, not only between me and shraeye.

[faust]

Unexplained or looking for people to question the reason so you can explain afterwards?

Unexplained for now... though I figured it would not be hard to guess my reasons.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Unexplained or looking for people to question the reason so you can explain afterwards?

Unexplained for now... though I figured it would not be hard to guess my reasons.

That you're scum and trying to push a mislynch?

[faust]

Unexplained or looking for people to question the reason so you can explain afterwards?

Unexplained for now... though I figured it would not be hard to guess my reasons.

That you're scum and trying to push a mislynch?

I knew you could do it!

[Joseph2302]

So, setup:
It's 10/4, which seems hard for town
Although doesn't look like traitor is bulletproof (which they have been in most setups I've played), so hopefully scum will accidentally kill them for us

[EFHW]

Vote count 1.1   

   Raptor (1): Galzria
   Shraeye (1): ADK
   Joseph (3): Lalight, MiX, Didds
   Didds (3): Space, joth, Joseph
   ADK (2): faust, raerae
   raerae (1): Eevee

Not Voting (3): Raptor, Maxford, Shraeye

With 14 players alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on October 28th at 1:40pm EST.

[Joseph2302]

Looking at these wagons, one looks very scummy, and the ither one looks reasonable

[MiX]

Looking at these wagons, one looks very scummy, and the ither one looks reasonable

Agreed.

Vote: Raptor

[faust]

Looking at these wagons, one looks very scummy, and the ither one looks reasonable

Completely unbiased opinion, right?

Also there's a third wagon, look! What about that one?

[jotheonah]

faust, raerae, sell me on this ADK wagon. I'd like to get off Didds.

[MiX]

Looking at these wagons, one looks very scummy, and the ither one looks reasonable

Completely unbiased opinion, right?

Also there's a third wagon, look! What about that one?

There's 4 wagons, get with the times faust

PPE: why did you vote there anyway?

[faust]

I think I would prefer for the two of you to form your own opinions on ADK. Maybe reread, tell me what you think, then I might be more inclined to share my reasons to vote ADK.

[jotheonah]

I think I would prefer for the two of you to form your own opinions on ADK. Maybe reread, tell me what you think, then I might be more inclined to share my reasons to vote ADK.

ohmigod that's so much WORK. just let me sheep you.

jk, I'll take a look.

[Eevee]

Looking at these wagons, one looks very scummy, and the ither one looks reasonable

Completely unbiased opinion, right?

I was wondering how Joseph might have developed such nuanced reads already.. oh right.

[raerae]

faust, raerae, sell me on this ADK wagon. I'd like to get off Didds.

Why lean into ADK instead of one of the others?

[shraeye]

faust, raerae, sell me on this ADK wagon. I'd like to get off Didds.

Why lean into ADK instead of one of the others?

Yeah, stay off ADK.

[jotheonah]

ADK has like three posts all game. Here they are, just to make everyone's ISOs a little easier:

I don't see any reason to think that prs are tied to specific cards but more importantly people should stop talking about it

vote: Joseph for forgetting to do his SK joke

vote: shraeye

These posts are part of an extended running gag wherein faust and shraeye treat explaining a joke as enhancing its humor value when in fact the generally-accepted wisdom is the opposite.

And a way better alternative to when they fight! The fighting makes me nervous. Which I think is really interesting because I was a debater and then a debate coach for years and years. So thumbs up on shraust (or fauseye?) harmony!

This game could use less harmony if you ask me. Let's get some wagons going

Unexplained or looking for people to question the reason so you can explain afterwards?

Unexplained for now... though I figured it would not be hard to guess my reasons.

That you're scum and trying to push a mislynch?

So that's ADK's unabridged ISO. I can't really fault him for the level of content; it's early, my ISO is probably similarly brief rn.

The main things he's done are oppose flavor talk, which is an easy street path to town points but is also, IIRC, consistent with his day 1 town meta (although please lmk if I'm wrong on that), and try to get more voting going, which has transparent utility for scum, but also for town.

I guess this is an ok place to go for an early D1 vote, but nothing there amounts to an especially strong case.

vote: ADK

[jotheonah]

faust, raerae, sell me on this ADK wagon. I'd like to get off Didds.

Why lean into ADK instead of one of the others?

Because I'm townreading raerae and faust and I'm not interested in lynching Joseph or Didds rn.

[jotheonah]

although actually if people want to try to sell me on Joseph, I'm all ears.

[MiX]

Pffffft that analysis is hilarious! I can't stress how much I'm laughing right now because of that!

Can joth do that as town with a straight face??

Vote: joth

[LaLight]

I actually feel like vote: joth right now as well

[Joseph2302]

Looking at these wagons, one looks very scummy, and the ither one looks reasonable

Completely unbiased opinion, right?

I was wondering how Joseph might have developed such nuanced reads already.. oh right.

Just so we're clear, last game I became an IC but was so useless with ny reads

[WestCoastDidds]

The Joth votes are not awesome.
The WCD votes are not awesome.
The Raptor votes are interesting because where is Raptor? Or Galzy?
The ADK votes at least have something to them.
The Joseph votes are okay, too

LaLi following MiX is super interesting to me....

[Maxford]

@ Space: no I didn't remember that you explained what PPE means but...

@ Mix: thanks for the link, it's very useful!

Also, do people have any confidence in the votes they're casting? Or are they just literally voting at random?

Technical point: what happens if we don't reach a majority by the end of Day 1?

[shraeye]

Also, do people have any confidence in the votes they're casting?

Yes, but also mostly no.

[faust]

Also, do people have any confidence in the votes they're casting? Or are they just literally voting at random?

Generally speaking, there at this point votes are mostly "the average player has a 30.8% chance of being scum, I'm voting for a player that I think has a 35% chance of being scum". I wouldn't call that confidence, but it's not random either.

There's also voting to specifically get reactions from the person you're voting for (or others) even if you don't necessarily think they're scum.

Technical point: what happens if we don't reach a majority by the end of Day 1?

There will be no lynch.

[Eevee]

@ Space: no I didn't remember that you explained what PPE means but...

@ Mix: thanks for the link, it's very useful!

Also, do people have any confidence in the votes they're casting? Or are they just literally voting at random?

Technical point: what happens if we don't reach a majority by the end of Day 1?

90% random for me still. The goal is to make it less and less random as the day progresses, but I must admit, at least for me, day 1 is very tough.

Fwiw, we have 6 days left. The deadline is 28th. I believe we have some people still MIA, at least Galzria hasn't posted yet.

[Eevee]

@ Maxford Are you keeping up with the game? Is this (the game) intimidating to you?

(I think you're doing fine, fwiw!)

[jotheonah]

Pffffft that analysis is hilarious! I can't stress how much I'm laughing right now because of that!

Can joth do that as town with a straight face??

Vote: joth

Well I guess it's my turn to not be in on the joke now? There was not a lot to analyze but I was doing it with sincerity.

[jotheonah]

do people have any confidence in the votes they're casting?

I can only speak for myself. I do not.

[MiX]

Pffffft that analysis is hilarious! I can't stress how much I'm laughing right now because of that!

Can joth do that as town with a straight face??

Vote: joth

Well I guess it's my turn to not be in on the joke now? There was not a lot to analyze but I was doing it with sincerity.

That's not analysis, that's just looking at posts, reading what they say and then a completely irrelevant vote. It's almost too scummy to be scum, but I thought it was hilarious so I think you would do it as scum.

[jotheonah]

Pffffft that analysis is hilarious! I can't stress how much I'm laughing right now because of that!

Can joth do that as town with a straight face??

Vote: joth

Well I guess it's my turn to not be in on the joke now? There was not a lot to analyze but I was doing it with sincerity.

That's not analysis, that's just looking at posts, reading what they say and then a completely irrelevant vote. It's almost too scummy to be scum, but I thought it was hilarious so I think you would do it as scum.

Your right. The detailed analysis of ADK's play that you offered up was much superior. Makes mine look like a joke.

[jotheonah]

*you're

[SpaceAnemone]

Also, do people have any confidence in the votes they're casting? Or are they just literally voting at random?

Mine was more of a "hello" to Didds. I'm confident that she's probably no more likely to be scum than average :-)

Let's switch to Vote: Raptor since there's nothing much going on there. (And also I don't want to be so predictable as to vote Joseph without more provocation).

[MiX]

Pffffft that analysis is hilarious! I can't stress how much I'm laughing right now because of that!

Can joth do that as town with a straight face??

Vote: joth

Well I guess it's my turn to not be in on the joke now? There was not a lot to analyze but I was doing it with sincerity.

That's not analysis, that's just looking at posts, reading what they say and then a completely irrelevant vote. It's almost too scummy to be scum, but I thought it was hilarious so I think you would do it as scum.

Your right. The detailed analysis of ADK's play that you offered up was much superior. Makes mine look like a joke.

I didn't vote ADK due to it

[WestCoastDidds]

Pffffft that analysis is hilarious! I can't stress how much I'm laughing right now because of that!

Can joth do that as town with a straight face??

Vote: joth

Well I guess it's my turn to not be in on the joke now? There was not a lot to analyze but I was doing it with sincerity.

vote: MiX

[Maxford]

@ Maxford Are you keeping up with the game? Is this (the game) intimidating to you?

(I think you're doing fine, fwiw!)

Thanks! I suppose I'm keeping up, trying to figure out that the norms are.

I'm a bit surprised that people are casting votes so quickly in the game: I would have thought that in the absence of strong information, lynching would be favorable to scum people because
1) they have information from day 1 (right?),
2) if we're mistaken and end up lynching a town person (which in the absence of strong evidence is more likely to happen than the reverse), they have one less person to kill.

Of course, there might be value in getting people to talk and casting vote is a good way to start this, so maybe it's a good idea after all.

If there's something I'm failing to see here?

[jotheonah]

Pffffft that analysis is hilarious! I can't stress how much I'm laughing right now because of that!

Can joth do that as town with a straight face??

Vote: joth

Well I guess it's my turn to not be in on the joke now? There was not a lot to analyze but I was doing it with sincerity.

That's not analysis, that's just looking at posts, reading what they say and then a completely irrelevant vote. It's almost too scummy to be scum, but I thought it was hilarious so I think you would do it as scum.

Your right. The detailed analysis of ADK's play that you offered up was much superior. Makes mine look like a joke.

I didn't vote ADK due to it

I voted for ADK because I trust faust and raerae (to a degree) and because he's a better lynch right now than Didds (where I was before). It's day 1, what do you want?

[SpaceAnemone]

Also, do people have any confidence in the votes they're casting? Or are they just literally voting at random?

Generally speaking, there at this point votes are mostly "the average player has a 30.8% chance of being scum, I'm voting for a player that I think has a 35% chance of being scum". I wouldn't call that confidence, but it's not random either.

<3 for the fact that 30.8% is right :-)

Sad that it makes like a third of you be scum.. that does seem pretty harsh for town.

[WestCoastDidds]

Also, do people have any confidence in the votes they're casting? Or are they just literally voting at random?

Technical point: what happens if we don't reach a majority by the end of Day 1?

As everyone else has said...not random, but not a ton of confidence, either.  But that is kind of the nature of the start of the day. As folks accumulate votes, how they choose to respond can be illuminating, so everyone is watching everyone else, but there just isn't a whole lot to base a vote on other than what we generally know about each other.

Usually near the end of the Day, there will be coalescence around someone but most times we get it wrong (called a mislynch) and they turn out to be town (wah wah). But every now and again we get it right and they flip scum, but we can't talk since the thread gets locked and the Night begins and we all have to do the Happy Dance of Victory by ourselves.

[MiX]

@ Maxford Are you keeping up with the game? Is this (the game) intimidating to you?

(I think you're doing fine, fwiw!)

Thanks! I suppose I'm keeping up, trying to figure out that the norms are.

I'm a bit surprised that people are casting votes so quickly in the game: I would have thought that in the absence of strong information, lynching would be favorable to scum people because
1) they have information from day 1 (right?),
2) if we're mistaken and end up lynching a town person (which in the absence of strong evidence is more likely to happen than the reverse), they have one less person to kill.

Of course, there might be value in getting people to talk and casting vote is a good way to start this, so maybe it's a good idea after all.

If there's something I'm failing to see here?

Hmmmmmmm, if we don't lynch scum we lose, so we have to lynch eventually...there's no reason to give up on day 1 just because it's the day where you least likely lynch scum, because since the possibility is there you can gather a ton of information which is useful to find scum in the following days.

Overall interaction = good, and votes = interaction.

I voted for ADK because I trust faust and raerae (to a degree) and because he's a better lynch right now than Didds (where I was before). It's day 1, what do you want?

Oh. What's your read on ADK then?

Also, do people have any confidence in the votes they're casting? Or are they just literally voting at random?

Technical point: what happens if we don't reach a majority by the end of Day 1?

As everyone else has said...not random, but not a ton of confidence, either.  But that is kind of the nature of the start of the day. As folks accumulate votes, how they choose to respond can be illuminating, so everyone is watching everyone else, but there just isn't a whole lot to base a vote on other than what we generally know about each other.

Usually near the end of the Day, there will be coalescence around someone but most times we get it wrong (called a mislynch) and they turn out to be town (wah wah). But every now and again we get it right and they flip scum, but we can't talk since the thread gets locked and the Night begins and we all have to do the Happy Dance of Victory by ourselves.

Celebrate with the mod! I'm sure they'll be thrilled.

[jotheonah]

@ Maxford Are you keeping up with the game? Is this (the game) intimidating to you?

(I think you're doing fine, fwiw!)

Thanks! I suppose I'm keeping up, trying to figure out that the norms are.

I'm a bit surprised that people are casting votes so quickly in the game: I would have thought that in the absence of strong information, lynching would be favorable to scum people because
1) they have information from day 1 (right?),
2) if we're mistaken and end up lynching a town person (which in the absence of strong evidence is more likely to happen than the reverse), they have one less person to kill.

Of course, there might be value in getting people to talk and casting vote is a good way to start this, so maybe it's a good idea after all.

If there's something I'm failing to see here?

This is a pretty common way of thinking for new town. So here's another way of thinking of it:

Scum has a weapon they can use to kill. It's the night kill.

Town has a weapon that they can use to kill. It's the lynch.

If town no lynches a lot because they don't have strong reads, we're basically choosing to keep our weapon holstered while the person that we're dueling is firing theirs as fast as they can.

Secondarily, how do we find scum if not by engaging in a process that forces people to commit to reads and arguments?

It's sort of counterintuitive, but voting a lot is good for town. Even a day 1 town lynch (which is the norm) is good for town because we can then look at who the top contributors were to that lynch, who looked like they maybe knew how it was going to end, who tried to turn the lynch away from someone else, etc., etc. If we no-lynch we get none of that.

[jotheonah]

Oh. What's your read on ADK then?

Slight scum, mainly because he hasn't done anything particularly towny and his behavior is all reasonably consistent with day 1 scum. What's yours?

[MiX]

Oh. What's your read on ADK then?

Slight scum, mainly because he hasn't done anything particularly towny and his behavior is all reasonably consistent with day 1 scum. What's yours?

Null? I haven't setup my reads list this game so I haven't sorted him yet. But I think it's null.

[Eevee]

@ Maxford Are you keeping up with the game? Is this (the game) intimidating to you?

(I think you're doing fine, fwiw!)

Thanks! I suppose I'm keeping up, trying to figure out that the norms are.

I'm a bit surprised that people are casting votes so quickly in the game: I would have thought that in the absence of strong information, lynching would be favorable to scum people because
1) they have information from day 1 (right?),
2) if we're mistaken and end up lynching a town person (which in the absence of strong evidence is more likely to happen than the reverse), they have one less person to kill.

Of course, there might be value in getting people to talk and casting vote is a good way to start this, so maybe it's a good idea after all.

If there's something I'm failing to see here?

Yup, this line of thinking is towny from Maxford. Sharp new players very often get this idea. Town would have more reason to think about it than scum, so.

I would say the biggest thing is you're underestimating how much it helps us to have scum use their night kill unless we lynch. We'd be in pretty much the same boat tomorrow after nolynching, except scum would control an even higher proportion of the votes. There are a lot of informational benefits for the day 1 lynch, and if he do happen to hit mafia (hey, the odds are pretty good here!), it's absolutely amazing. I'd be interested in seeing town's winrate after correct day 1 lynches, it must be very high. And in the (more likely) event we hit town, hopefully some people will manage to show their towniness in the process, while others will act suspiciously and we can make better decisions tomorrow (and help our pr's for tonight too!).

[MiX]

It's official: LaLight and Eevee are one and the same to me. I hadn't even noticed LL only had 3 posts!

Vote: LaLight

[LaLight]

It's official: LaLight and Eevee are one and the same to me. I hadn't even noticed LL only had 3 posts!

Vote: LaLight

This is officially the best compliment I have heard on this forum.

[shraeye]

@ Maxford Are you keeping up with the game? Is this (the game) intimidating to you?

(I think you're doing fine, fwiw!)

Thanks! I suppose I'm keeping up, trying to figure out that the norms are.

I'm a bit surprised that people are casting votes so quickly in the game: I would have thought that in the absence of strong information, lynching would be favorable to scum people because
1) they have information from day 1 (right?),
2) if we're mistaken and end up lynching a town person (which in the absence of strong evidence is more likely to happen than the reverse), they have one less person to kill.

Of course, there might be value in getting people to talk and casting vote is a good way to start this, so maybe it's a good idea after all.

If there's something I'm failing to see here?

People have pointed out deeper interactions.  But let this be the first time you hear me say (definitely not the last time you hear me say) that intentionally not lynching can also be the right move at times.  Everybody here should admit that there exist potential situations where it is morally/mathematically/spiritually the right move. 

Many people disagree with my stance that, in certain circumstances, it is a reasonable option on day 1.

-MiX's argument that if we never lynch we lose is slippery slope fallacy; joth's case is better

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Hello all! Sorry for lagging. I’m Raptor, if you have any questions fell free to ask away. I was planning on getting to all of this last night when Galz took Swan and I out to drink. After copious amounts of alcohol, that never happened. So I will finally read up tonight.

vote: Raptor

I’m not scum, therefore he must be.

Also this is something scum would do Vote: Gaz

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Vote: Galz auto-correct 

[MiX]

-MiX's argument that if we never lynch we lose is slippery slope fallacy; joth's case is better

I wasn't making a case for lynching, but for trying to lynch. Trying to lynch is pro-town because otherwise scum never has pressure and thus nothing is alignment indicative.

[MiX]

Hello all! Sorry for lagging. I’m Raptor, if you have any questions fell free to ask away. I was planning on getting to all of this last night when Galz took Swan and I out to drink. After copious amounts of alcohol, that never happened. So I will finally read up tonight.

How much are you going to lurk?

vote: Raptor

I’m not scum, therefore he must be.

Also this is something scum would do Vote: Gaz

So would town.

[Joseph2302]

Hello all! Sorry for lagging. I’m Raptor, if you have any questions fell free to ask away. I was planning on getting to all of this last night when Galz took Swan and I out to drink. After copious amounts of alcohol, that never happened. So I will finally read up tonight.

How much are you going to lurk?

vote: Raptor

I’m not scum, therefore he must be.

Also this is something scum would do Vote: Gaz

So would town.

I plan to lurk all game because I'm town

[Joseph2302]

And last game I was super active and got our only PR killed. As an effective IC.
Not bitter about it, but just realise my reads can be terrible

[MiX]

And last game I was super active and got our only PR killed. As an effective IC.
Not bitter about it, but just realise my reads can be terrible

When was that? Ooooooooh right. Right. I forgot about that game. Wish I had completely forgot, actually. Not your fault.

I didn't ask you tho.

[Galzria]

@ Space: no I didn't remember that you explained what PPE means but...

@ Mix: thanks for the link, it's very useful!

Also, do people have any confidence in the votes they're casting? Or are they just literally voting at random?

Technical point: what happens if we don't reach a majority by the end of Day 1?

90% random for me still. The goal is to make it less and less random as the day progresses, but I must admit, at least for me, day 1 is very tough.

Fwiw, we have 6 days left. The deadline is 28th. I believe we have some people still MIA, at least Galzria hasn't posted yet.

Pfft - haven’t posted yet? I cast the first vote of the game!

Vote: Space - while I understand the reasoning behind their “no-lynch D1 passes” list, it’s lazy and something I could very much see scum!Space going to allow themselves the freedom to not make real reads - something Space knows isn’t their strong suit, especially D1 before any real data is available.

[MiX]

@ Space: no I didn't remember that you explained what PPE means but...

@ Mix: thanks for the link, it's very useful!

Also, do people have any confidence in the votes they're casting? Or are they just literally voting at random?

Technical point: what happens if we don't reach a majority by the end of Day 1?

90% random for me still. The goal is to make it less and less random as the day progresses, but I must admit, at least for me, day 1 is very tough.

Fwiw, we have 6 days left. The deadline is 28th. I believe we have some people still MIA, at least Galzria hasn't posted yet.

Pfft - haven’t posted yet? I cast the first vote of the game!

Vote: Space - while I understand the reasoning behind their “no-lynch D1 passes” list, it’s lazy and something I could very much see scum!Space going to allow themselves the freedom to not make real reads - something Space knows isn’t their strong suit, especially D1 before any real data is available.

I don't get it, how does this help scum!Space in a way that doesn't also help town!Space?

[SpaceAnemone]

I think I like Eevee's responds to Maxford's post better than Joth's.

Compare Joth's "This is a pretty common way of thinking for new town" to Eevee's "Yup, this line of thinking is towny from Maxford". The first seems to be a statement of fact that just assumes Maxford is town. The latter does feel the need to comment on the very relevant intermediate fact that Maxford sounds townie for it. Why does Joth skip that?

PPE 10 because I had dinner with Maxford so I had to leave this post half-written in my browser all that time :-P

[Swowl]

Vote count 1.1   

        ADK (3): faust, raerae, Joth
        Shraeye(1): ADK
        Joth(1): LaLight,
        LaLight(1): MiX
        Raptor(1): Space
        Galzria(1): Raptor
        Space (1): Galz
        MiX (1): Didds
        Didds (1): Joseph
        raerae (1): Eevee

Not Voting (2): Maxford, Shraeye

With 14 players alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on October 28th at 1:40pm EST.

[Swowl]

Everyone, I am doing my Vote Counts by hand. Please feel free to call out any errors you see and I will correct them.

[Eevee]

vote: joth

[SpaceAnemone]

while I understand the reasoning behind their “no-lynch D1 passes” list, it’s lazy and something I could very much see scum!Space going to allow themselves the freedom to not make real reads - something Space knows isn’t their strong suit, especially D1 before any real data is available.

I think you're saying that I deliberately said more than I needed to about unwillingness to lynch certain players, because that will somehow excuse me from needing to do reads. How does that mechanism work?

I think by declaring intent on a few D1 passes, I've mostly just concentrated my problem in to a tougher-to-read lynchpool than I would otherwise have had, since the real hard ones to read for me are people like you, Joth and Shraeye.

Anyway, you're certainly right that I find D1 hard and D1 reads very shaky.

[Galzria]

@ Space: no I didn't remember that you explained what PPE means but...

@ Mix: thanks for the link, it's very useful!

Also, do people have any confidence in the votes they're casting? Or are they just literally voting at random?

Technical point: what happens if we don't reach a majority by the end of Day 1?

90% random for me still. The goal is to make it less and less random as the day progresses, but I must admit, at least for me, day 1 is very tough.

Fwiw, we have 6 days left. The deadline is 28th. I believe we have some people still MIA, at least Galzria hasn't posted yet.

Pfft - haven’t posted yet? I cast the first vote of the game!

Vote: Space - while I understand the reasoning behind their “no-lynch D1 passes” list, it’s lazy and something I could very much see scum!Space going to allow themselves the freedom to not make real reads - something Space knows isn’t their strong suit, especially D1 before any real data is available.

I don't get it, how does this help scum!Space in a way that doesn't also help town!Space?

Town!Space wants to find scum, and thus free passes are purely anti-scum hunting. Scum!Space wants to avoid making as many “real” reads as possible, because doing so is hard to fake - especially for someone whose approach is so logic and data driven.

[Galzria]

while I understand the reasoning behind their “no-lynch D1 passes” list, it’s lazy and something I could very much see scum!Space going to allow themselves the freedom to not make real reads - something Space knows isn’t their strong suit, especially D1 before any real data is available.

I think you're saying that I deliberately said more than I needed to about unwillingness to lynch certain players, because that will somehow excuse me from needing to do reads. How does that mechanism work?

I think by declaring intent on a few D1 passes, I've mostly just concentrated my problem in to a tougher-to-read lynchpool than I would otherwise have had, since the real hard ones to read for me are people like you, Joth and Shraeye.

Anyway, you're certainly right that I find D1 hard and D1 reads very shaky.

Well, let’s say you’re town. You have no idea if your “free-pass-list” contains scum. What if that’s the entire scum team (very much not likely, but hey). Are you just resigning yourself to “Damn, well that was freaking unlucky as hell.”? They are all just as likely to be scum as any other players. Removing them (or anybody at all really) just feels like an anti-town move - and like I said, I actually understand your why’s for each of them. But it feels like an arbitrary cop-out to not have to give reads on that group, even if it is just for D1.

[SpaceAnemone]

Everyone, I am doing my Vote Counts by hand. Please feel free to call out any errors you see and I will correct them.

I've now set up my auto-vote-counter, and I get the same thing as you, except that Eevee has moved his vote in the interim.

[SpaceAnemone]

Meh. Yes, town!Space wants to find scum, but town!Space also wants to have a fun game :-) If all the scumteam is in there, I'll just have to be thankful that not everyone has the same biases as me :-)

Anyway, I've already commented recently on how I like Eevee's response to Maxford, how Maxford himself sounds pretty townie for his questions, and how I like that faust used the right number in his probability thing (whereas a scum player could easily have scumslipped there by not first removing themself from the pool, though it's true that faust himself is probably not too prone to that kind of error). Those are all readsy comments on people on my pass list, so I don't think it's true that I'm not scrutinising them. (Except LL, who hasn't said anything much, but who's probably easier for me to read later on anyway).

[jotheonah]

And last game I was super active and got our only PR killed. As an effective IC.
Not bitter about it, but just realise my reads can be terrible

no hard feelings

[jotheonah]

I think I like Eevee's responds to Maxford's post better than Joth's.

Compare Joth's "This is a pretty common way of thinking for new town" to Eevee's "Yup, this line of thinking is towny from Maxford". The first seems to be a statement of fact that just assumes Maxford is town. The latter does feel the need to comment on the very relevant intermediate fact that Maxford sounds townie for it. Why does Joth skip that?

PPE 10 because I had dinner with Maxford so I had to leave this post half-written in my browser all that time :-P

I mean, I guess it is townie. I think new scum could also get there if they were the sort of person who was good at authentically thinking from a town perspective, so I don't think it's a slam-dunk towntell.

I guess I was just jumping into "help out the newbie" mode. Like when you're at a board game night with someone who's new to the game. I leapt right out of the game into the metagame of being a good gamer and didn't even really think about that post in terms of evidence of alignment.

[faust]

God, townreading a newbie for doing newbie stuff is such a throwaway read. It shouldn't be done and you certainly shouldn't townread people for doing it.

[shraeye]

I like that faust used the right number in his probability thing (whereas a scum player could easily have scumslipped there by not first removing themself from the pool, though it's true that faust himself is probably not too prone to that kind of error).

Not only does scum make this mistake 0% of the time, scum-faust makes it even less than that

[jotheonah]

God, townreading a newbie for doing newbie stuff is such a throwaway read. It shouldn't be done and you certainly shouldn't townread people for doing it.

Or scumread people for not doing it?

vote: Space

[faust]

God, townreading a newbie for doing newbie stuff is such a throwaway read. It shouldn't be done and you certainly shouldn't townread people for doing it.

Or scumread people for not doing it?

vote: Space

This argument would have a better ring to it if you didn't end up agreeing that it was townie.

[A Drowned Kernel]

faust, raerae, sell me on this ADK wagon. I'd like to get off Didds.

Why lean into ADK instead of one of the others?

Because I'm townreading raerae and faust and I'm not interested in lynching Joseph or Didds rn.

This is suspect to me. It's not as if faust and raerae made a case on me for you to sheep and I don't see any particular reason to townread either of them right now

The Joth votes are not awesome.
The WCD votes are not awesome.
The Raptor votes are interesting because where is Raptor? Or Galzy?
The ADK votes at least have something to them.
The Joseph votes are okay, too

LaLi following MiX is super interesting to me....

Do you think Lalight is scummy for it?

@ Space: no I didn't remember that you explained what PPE means but...

@ Mix: thanks for the link, it's very useful!

Also, do people have any confidence in the votes they're casting? Or are they just literally voting at random?

Technical point: what happens if we don't reach a majority by the end of Day 1?

I have 100% confidence in every vote I make right up until the point that I change my mind

Pffffft that analysis is hilarious! I can't stress how much I'm laughing right now because of that!

Can joth do that as town with a straight face??

Vote: joth

Well I guess it's my turn to not be in on the joke now? There was not a lot to analyze but I was doing it with sincerity.

vote: MiX

Based on what? I honestly have a townread on mix at this point

Hello all! Sorry for lagging. I’m Raptor, if you have any questions fell free to ask away. I was planning on getting to all of this last night when Galz took Swan and I out to drink. After copious amounts of alcohol, that never happened. So I will finally read up tonight.

vote: Raptor

I’m not scum, therefore he must be.

Also this is something scum would do Vote: Gaz

Why is it more likely to come from scum!galz than town!galz?

-

Also, just a gentle reminder to people that I go by they/them pronouns, please

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Hello all! Sorry for lagging. I’m Raptor, if you have any questions fell free to ask away. I was planning on getting to all of this last night when Galz took Swan and I out to drink. After copious amounts of alcohol, that never happened. So I will finally read up tonight.

How much are you going to lurk?

I'm a busy guy, I post when I have time. I wouldn't call it lurking.

Hello all! Sorry for lagging. I’m Raptor, if you have any questions fell free to ask away. I was planning on getting to all of this last night when Galz took Swan and I out to drink. After copious amounts of alcohol, that never happened. So I will finally read up tonight.

vote: Raptor

I’m not scum, therefore he must be.

Also this is something scum would do Vote: Gaz

Why is it more likely to come from scum!galz than town!galz?

-

Also, just a gentle reminder to people that I go by they/them pronouns, please

It's a bad-ish vote, I do not plan on staying there all day.


@everyone - I promise to try my best to refer to everyone by there respected pronouns. I apologize in advance if I slip at some point in time, please correct me if i make a mistake.   

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Anyway, you're certainly right that I find D1 hard and D1 reads very shaky.

I can second this, I feel the same.

[Swowl]

Vote count 1.3   

        ADK (2): faust, raerae
        Space (2): Galz, Joth
        Joth(2): LaLight, Eevee
        Shraeye(1): ADK
        LaLight(1): MiX
        Raptor(1): Space
        Galzria(1): Raptor
        MiX (1): Didds
        Didds (1): Joseph
        

Not Voting (2): Maxford, Shraeye

With 14 players alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on October 28th at 1:40pm EST.

[Joseph2302]

That's a diverse set of votes

[Joseph2302]

Vote: joth
L-5

[MiX]

I guess I have a read on ADK now.

Vote: joth

[SpaceAnemone]

God, townreading a newbie for doing newbie stuff is such a throwaway read. It shouldn't be done and you certainly shouldn't townread people for doing it.

Or scumread people for not doing it?

vote: Space

I didn't scumread you for not townreading Maxford. I mildly scumread you for jumping all the way past stating any kind of townread on him and outright characterizing him as town in your statement.

Now I feel like you're getting defensive and misrepresenting me in the process. I can't decide if I scumread you for twisting my post, or townread you for being defensive about something that may just have been a mistake.

[jotheonah]

I’m not thrilled about suddenly being the leading wagon.

@space, that’s fair. I’m not really super scumreading you, that was more of a vote for rhetorical emphasis.

vote: ADK

[shraeye]

vote: ADK

Also, general message to all.  My apologies for being very bad with using correct pronouns.  It's something that I know I need to get better at, which I suppose is Step 1.

[MiX]

What's the ADK case?

[Joseph2302]

What's the ADK case?

What's the case for anyone ever D1
D1 is a crapshoot, that we have a 4/14 chance of winning

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: Raptor

I’m not scum, therefore he must be.

Also this is something scum would do Vote: Gaz

Why is it more likely to come from scum!galz than town!galz?

-

Also, just a gentle reminder to people that I go by they/them pronouns, please
[/quote]

It's a bad-ish vote, I do not plan on staying there all day.
[/quote]

That's fine but it doesn't really answer my question

[A Drowned Kernel]

Quote clipping fail

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: ADK

Also, general message to all.  My apologies for being very bad with using correct pronouns.  It's something that I know I need to get better at, which I suppose is Step 1.

I thought you were opposed to the votes on me

[WestCoastDidds]

LaLi following MiX is super interesting to me....

Do you think Lalight is scummy for it?

Pffffft that analysis is hilarious! I can't stress how much I'm laughing right now because of that!

Can joth do that as town with a straight face??

Vote: joth

Well I guess it's my turn to not be in on the joke now? There was not a lot to analyze but I was doing it with sincerity.

vote: MiX

Based on what? I honestly have a townread on mix at this point


Also, just a gentle reminder to people that I go by they/them pronouns, please

Howdy knife-wielding pumpkin cat!

First question...I am not sure that I would go as far as scum reading LaLi for it just yet, but for me, it is something worth noting. If MiX is scum and LaLi is say, traitor, following him like that might be an attempt to create solidarity.  But it is one teeny data point and, unlike you, I am not 100% of anything most of the time.  So I am just making the note for the time being.

Second question...town MiX is generally helpful and actively scum hunting.  In this post he makes fun of Joth, who is making as good of an argument as anyone else is making, and generally being abrasive. The last time I played with him when he pulled that kind of move, he was the SK. Here is what I know...MiX is very good at this game so when he is creating content by being mean, there is probably a reason.

Finally, my apologies if I have messed up the pronouns. I am a word person, and a feminist theory person, and I understand at a fundamental level how much words matter.  I appreciate the reminder.

[SpaceAnemone]

What's the ADK case?

What's the case for anyone ever D1
D1 is a crapshoot, that we have a 4/14 chance of winning

@Joseph, why are you the one to answer MiX's question here? The people you have voted for so far are me, Didds and Joth.

Isn't there something to be gained by leaving the people voting for ADK to answer the question, or at least seeing if they want to/are willing to?

PPE 1

[MiX]

I wanted a reaction from joth. And everyone else, really. Also it's as pure of a reaction as I could give to that post. It did, genually, make me laugh.

Thanks for the compliment!

What's the ADK case?

What's the case for anyone ever D1
D1 is a crapshoot, that we have a 4/14 chance of winning

@Joseph, why are you the one to answer MiX's question here? The people you have voted for so far are me, Didds and Joth.

Isn't there something to be gained by leaving the people voting for ADK to answer the question, or at least seeing if they want to/are willing to?

PPE 1

So, can you answer it?

[WestCoastDidds]

Thanks for the compliment!

It's well deserved

[SpaceAnemone]

What's the ADK case?

What's the case for anyone ever D1
D1 is a crapshoot, that we have a 4/14 chance of winning

@Joseph, why are you the one to answer MiX's question here? The people you have voted for so far are me, Didds and Joth.

Isn't there something to be gained by leaving the people voting for ADK to answer the question, or at least seeing if they want to/are willing to?

PPE 1

So, can you answer it?

Is that question directed at me?

Here's the current Space Count, in case it's useful:

Shraeye (1): A Drowned Kernel
A Drowned Kernel (4): faust, raerae, jotheonah, Shraeye
jotheonah (4): LaLight, Eevee, Joseph2302, MiX
Xxraptorslayer96 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (1): WestCoastDidds
Galzria (1): Xxraptorslayer96
SpaceAnemone (1): Galzria
Not Voting (1): Maxford

[faust]

What's the ADK case?

What do you think about ADK?

[MiX]

What's the ADK case?

What do you think about ADK?

Town.

[faust]

What's the ADK case?

What do you think about ADK?

Town.

Thanks. I'm voting ADK because of this:

I don't see any reason to think that prs are tied to specific cards but more importantly people should stop talking about it

I'm the seven of spades

vote: shraeye

I think that reaction to the flavor claim is more likely to come from scum.

[jotheonah]

I think I've articulated as much of an ADK case as anyone, and it's a way better articulated case than the one on me, which, if it was ever expressed in the least, I missed it.

So, yeah, what's the joth case? LMK so I can blow it up.

[raerae]

What's the ADK case?

No case from me, thought that was pretty clear considering my vote. I voted to see how it would play out.  Based on that,

Vote: Eevee

[Joseph2302]

Vote: raerae

[raerae]

Vote: raerae

Well, that's fun! Care to expand?

[Maxford]

What's the ADK case?

What do you think about ADK?

Town.

Thanks. I'm voting ADK because of this:

I don't see any reason to think that prs are tied to specific cards but more importantly people should stop talking about it

I'm the seven of spades

vote: shraeye

I think that reaction to the flavor claim is more likely to come from scum.

Can someone tell me if flavor usually plays a large role in mafia games? And also I don't see why this reaction to the flavor claim is more likely to come from scum? is this obvious to other people?

[raerae]

What's the ADK case?

What do you think about ADK?

Town.

Thanks. I'm voting ADK because of this:

I don't see any reason to think that prs are tied to specific cards but more importantly people should stop talking about it

I'm the seven of spades

vote: shraeye

I think that reaction to the flavor claim is more likely to come from scum.

Can someone tell me if flavor usually plays a large role in mafia games? And also I don't see why this reaction to the flavor claim is more likely to come from scum? is this obvious to other people?

Flavor is game dependent, just depends how the mod designed it.

[shraeye]

vote: ADK

Also, general message to all.  My apologies for being very bad with using correct pronouns.  It's something that I know I need to get better at, which I suppose is Step 1.

I thought you were opposed to the votes on me

Not really, just pointing out raerae's true intention in my roundabout nobody-probably-noticed way. 

To be clearer, that made me go "huh, raerae and ADK..."

[jotheonah]

Can someone tell me if flavor usually plays a large role in mafia games? And also I don't see why this reaction to the flavor claim is more likely to come from scum? is this obvious to other people?

Flavor is game dependent, just depends how the mod designed it.

It's generally considered poor mod form to make flavor too obviously correlated with roles because that can make a mass claim game-breaking. So let's say I was running OG Star Wars mafia and I gave the town the roles of Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Obi-Wan, Lando, Yoda, and the droids and I made the scum Darth Vader, Tarkin, and Emperor Palpatine. Well, if everyone claims scum is in trouble, even if I gave them fake claims like Admiral Ackbar or Wedge Antilles, because everyone else got real main characters and they didn't.

But there's 52 cards in a deck of cards and they're more or less of equal importance so there's plenty of fake claims to go around here and not much to be learned from flavor names IMO. The cards do have relationships to each other that could be flavor-indicative -- maybe all the 7s are masons together or something. But really, I tend to think this is like one of the least flavor-relevant games you could play.

My opinion is that scum is very happy to engage in a day 1 discussion about the merits of flavor-claiming, on either side really, because it's a great way to participate and look active without scumhunting or committing to anything. Scum is not super likely to throw out a claim willy-nilly like Shraeye did because as scum it's generally better to (A) not draw attention to yourself and (B) keep your claim options as open as possible. But there's something in mafia we call WIFOM, short for Wine in Front of Me, an allusion to this high-water mark of American cinema.

In mafia, WIFOM means that whenever you can lay out an argument for why scum wouldn't do something, you can also make the counterargument that they would do it for exactly that reason. So maybe Shraeye threw out his fake claim early hoping for free towncred. That makes it hard to draw particularly definitive conclusions from Shraeye's behavior.

This went a lot of places, but hopefully it's helpful.

[jotheonah]

So I can't speak for faust, but maybe he thinks that ADK's reaction is scummy because it looks like an easy grab for town points that might also turn into a good mislynch.

[shraeye]

Ah, but if throwing out my claim is obviously a calculated play to collect town-cred, then a good scum player would never make such a glaringly ungenuine play.

Therefore, I am clearly town.

[Eevee]

What's the ADK case?

No case from me, thought that was pretty clear considering my vote. I voted to see how it would play out.  Based on that,

Vote: Eevee

Was your plan to just vote for whoever voted for you? Seems kind of easy.

[raerae]

What's the ADK case?

No case from me, thought that was pretty clear considering my vote. I voted to see how it would play out.  Based on that,

Vote: Eevee

Was your plan to just vote for whoever voted for you? Seems kind of easy.

I was mostly just looking to see if a wagon would form and if judge people based on that. Your reaction was that ADK was obvtown for calling for wagons. That's weirder than the other stuff I saw.

[LaLight]

actually faust's point is both relevant and irrelevant to my reaction.

When I saw shraeye claim I immediately wanted to vote for him, because why the hell would you~

Then I didn't because, well, why would scum do it. If I was scum, and shraeye would be town, I would vote for him, I am pretty sure. So, well, vote: ADK seems awesome to me!

Also Space is clearly town!Space.

Also L-2 I think?

[Eevee]

What's the ADK case?

No case from me, thought that was pretty clear considering my vote. I voted to see how it would play out.  Based on that,

Vote: Eevee

Was your plan to just vote for whoever voted for you? Seems kind of easy.

I was mostly just looking to see if a wagon would form and if judge people based on that. Your reaction was that ADK was obvtown for calling for wagons. That's weirder than the other stuff I saw.

I don’t think you’d genuinely believe that I’d call an experienced player obvtown based on a day 1 post of two lines (I didn’t). Are you purposefully twisting my words to make me look scummy?

[Eevee]

Still not sure if shraeye was serious with his claim or not. I could see townshraeye surmising that
scum would be unlikely to dare to claim like that, and decide it’s a good move to make as town (fwiw, I think it probably isn’t.)

I could also see scumshraeye going one step further, but would weigh it a little less likely.

[raerae]

I'll just leave this right here for ya. You're right, I exaggerated, you only said "towny." But it seemed you took my vote serious enough to use ADK's townieness as a reason to vote for me. I'm good with my vote where it is.

Vote: raerae I think ADK's post was towny.

[raerae]

And we'll just add ADK's quote in for reference as well.

These posts are part of an extended running gag wherein faust and shraeye treat explaining a joke as enhancing its humor value when in fact the generally-accepted wisdom is the opposite.

And a way better alternative to when they fight! The fighting makes me nervous. Which I think is really interesting because I was a debater and then a debate coach for years and years. So thumbs up on shraust (or fauseye?) harmony!

This game could use less harmony if you ask me. Let's get some wagons going

[MiX]

So, yeah, what's the joth case? LMK so I can blow it up.

What have you done other than "develop" your read on ADK? I forgot. That's basically my case, I normally remember alignment-indicative-looking things you do, but you barely have any of them here. Oh, and how your wall posts are about nothing.

[Joseph2302]

Vote: raerae

Well, that's fun! Care to expand?

It's D1, let's just see what happens

[faust]

Vote: raerae

Well, that's fun! Care to expand?

It's D1, let's just see what happens

Would it kill you to tone down your D1-yoloism? It's getting on my nerves.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote: raerae

Well, that's fun! Care to expand?

It's D1, let's just see what happens

Would it kill you to tone down your D1-yoloism? It's getting on my nerves.

Mine too, but on the plus side, at least this time he's doing it in response to a question asked of him, rather than jumping in to derail other possible scumhunting. On the minus side, he's getting away with behaviour I'd argue is waaaay more designed to avoid having to give valid reads than anything Galz was accusing me of yesterday.

[shraeye]

That's a big minus side.  If my ADK vote weren't feeling so right, I'd drop a vote on Joseph

It would look like this:

Vote: Joseph

[Eevee]

I'm inclined to join. But I feel I'm just liking any wagon that's forming, and I'm not sure that's good. Although this doesn't feel like a derphammery-game, so I guess that's ok.

I don't even know who I'm voting for currently. Talked myself into it.

Vote: Joseph

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm inclined to join. But I feel I'm just liking any wagon that's forming, and I'm not sure that's good. Although this doesn't feel like a derphammery-game, so I guess that's ok.

I don't even know who I'm voting for currently. Talked myself into it.

Vote: Joseph

You conspicuously didn't like the ADK wagon, so there's that.

I'm torn on Joseph, because that's just such a predictable vote for me!

[MiX]

Joseph wagon is bad. What's it a counterwagon to? Joth?

That's a big minus side.  If my ADK vote weren't feeling so right, I'd drop a vote on Joseph

It would look like this:

Vote: Joseph

"Lol shraeye is so shraeye" describes his entire play today. Idk I think I'm just bad at reading this guy...

I'm inclined to join. But I feel I'm just liking any wagon that's forming, and I'm not sure that's good. Although this doesn't feel like a derphammery-game, so I guess that's ok.

I don't even know who I'm voting for currently. Talked myself into it.

Vote: Joseph

L-what?

[MiX]

Oh Joseph had literaly no votes ok. Here's VC btw:

A Drowned Kernel (2): faust, jotheonah
jotheonah (2): LaLight, MiX
Joseph (2): Eevee, Shraeye
Shraeye (1): A Drowned Kernel
Xxraptorslayer96 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (1): WestCoastDidds
Galzria (1): Xxraptorslayer96
SpaceAnemone (1): Galzria
Eevee (1): raerae
raerae (1): Joseph2302
Not Voting (1): Maxford

[MiX]

Can someone tell me if flavor usually plays a large role in mafia games? And also I don't see why this reaction to the flavor claim is more likely to come from scum? is this obvious to other people?

Hey max what do you think of the game so far? Got any reads? Where would you place your vote?

[MiX]

Can someone tell me if flavor usually plays a large role in mafia games? And also I don't see why this reaction to the flavor claim is more likely to come from scum? is this obvious to other people?

Hey FORD what do you think of the game so far? Got any reads? Where would you place your vote?

EBWOP (Edit by way of posting)

[A Drowned Kernel]

Oh Joseph had literaly no votes ok. Here's VC btw:

A Drowned Kernel (2): faust, jotheonah
jotheonah (2): LaLight, MiX
Joseph (2): Eevee, Shraeye
Shraeye (1): A Drowned Kernel
Xxraptorslayer96 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (1): WestCoastDidds
Galzria (1): Xxraptorslayer96
SpaceAnemone (1): Galzria
Eevee (1): raerae
raerae (1): Joseph2302
Not Voting (1): Maxford

Lalight is voting for me, I have more to say but am currently on my phone, later tonight

[raerae]

MiX, I remember you not liking any wagon that's formed, is that me misremembering or are you just townreading everybody this game?

[jotheonah]

So, yeah, what's the joth case? LMK so I can blow it up.

What have you done other than "develop" your read on ADK? I forgot. That's basically my case, I normally remember alignment-indicative-looking things you do, but you barely have any of them here. Oh, and how your wall posts are about nothing.

What have you done other than … yeah, man, at least you can remember one thing I've done. I got nothin as far as you go.

[WestCoastDidds]

So, yeah, what's the joth case? LMK so I can blow it up.

What have you done other than "develop" your read on ADK? I forgot. That's basically my case, I normally remember alignment-indicative-looking things you do, but you barely have any of them here. Oh, and how your wall posts are about nothing.

Right? And that’s not very MiX
What have you done other than … yeah, man, at least you can remember one thing I've done. I got nothin as far as you go.

[WestCoastDidds]

Quote fail

Right? And that’s not very MiX

[shraeye]

Yup, I'm back to ADK.  It's better.

Vote: ADK

[raerae]

Yup, I'm back to ADK.  It's better.

Vote: ADK

Dude, slow down, that whiplash'll getcha!

[shraeye]

Whiplash'll... What a unique contraction.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Ok, so, maybe I should lay out what I was thinking with the whole flavor/shraeye thing

There was some discussion going on about whether or not there could be a connection between flavor name or role. There's nothing in the setup post indicating either way. People who have PRs might have insight into whether or not that's the case. If there's a lot of discussion of the subject, those people could inadvertently slip and reveal info to scum. Given that there doesn't seem to be any real benefit to the discussion, it made sense to me to say that we just shouldn't talk about it

shraeye then, in direct response to that, claims his flavor name. This action pretty much baits people into discussing the subject again, because it's a very ostentatious move, while allowing him cover behind "lol I'm just being wacky town". It's very similar to what I did in the Falling Skies game when I claimed my number right off the bat, basically because I wanted people to talk about numbers and flavor so that I could narrow down who my lynchee was. It's PR hunting with plausible deniability, which to me reads as extremely scummy

I'll look at some of these other wagons tomorrow morning, but I am honestly super happy with my shraeye vote and invite people to join me there

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Vote: raerae

Well, that's fun! Care to expand?

It's D1, let's just see what happens

Would it kill you to tone down your D1-yoloism? It's getting on my nerves.

"yoloism" maybe my new favorite word, with that said Vote: Joseph

[Swowl]

        Vote count 1.4   

        ADK (3): faust, Joth, LaLight
        Joseph(2): Eevee, Shraeye
        Joth(1): MiX
        Shraeye(1): ADK
        Raptor(1): Space
        Eevee(1): RaeRae
        Galzria(1): Raptor
        RaeRae(1): Joseph
        MiX (1): Didds
        Didds (1): Joseph
        

Not Voting (1): Maxford

With 14 players alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on October 28th at 1:40pm EST.

[Galzria]

vote: joth

[Joseph2302]

Vote: raerae

Well, that's fun! Care to expand?

It's D1, let's just see what happens

Would it kill you to tone down your D1-yoloism? It's getting on my nerves.

Maybe it's coming across less seriously than I'm actually taking this game. Noted

[Joseph2302]

Anyway, @maxford seems like a reasonably standard new player- asking questions, being hesitant to vote. Newbie pass for today is fine, my logic being if newbies are scum, they're more likely to give it away later on

[MiX]

So, yeah, what's the joth case? LMK so I can blow it up.

What have you done other than "develop" your read on ADK? I forgot. That's basically my case, I normally remember alignment-indicative-looking things you do, but you barely have any of them here. Oh, and how your wall posts are about nothing.

What have you done other than … yeah, man, at least you can remember one thing I've done. I got nothin as far as you go.

Not even my case on you? Damn. You're right that I haven't been doing much, but...outch.

That's not a defence by the way.

[faust]

Vote: joth

[shraeye]

Seems my last vote didn't work.

Vote: ADK

[jotheonah]

unofficial VC

        ADK (3): shraeye, Joth, LaLight
        Joth(3): MiX, Galz, faust
        Joseph(1): Eevee
        Shraeye(1): ADK
        Raptor(1): Space
        Eevee(1): RaeRae
        Galzria(1): Raptor
        RaeRae(1): Joseph
        MiX (1): Didds
        Didds (1): Joseph

Not Voting (1): Maxford


That was a towny explanation from ADK. As much as I hate to make myself the top wagon by moving my vote, I don't like it there much.

vote: MiX

[MiX]

That was a towny explanation from ADK. As much as I hate to make myself the top wagon by moving my vote, I don't like it there much.

vote: MiX

At LEAST do something that lets me untunnel man. Why do I get the vote?

[A Drowned Kernel]

unofficial VC

        ADK (3): shraeye, Joth, LaLight
        Joth(3): MiX, Galz, faust
        Joseph(1): Eevee
        Shraeye(1): ADK
        Raptor(1): Space
        Eevee(1): RaeRae
        Galzria(1): Raptor
        RaeRae(1): Joseph
        MiX (1): Didds
        Didds (1): Joseph

Not Voting (1): Maxford


That was a towny explanation from ADK. As much as I hate to make myself the top wagon by moving my vote, I don't like it there much.

vote: MiX

joseph is on that vote count twice (he's currently voting for raerae I believe) and raptor should be on joseph

[A Drowned Kernel]

actually faust's point is both relevant and irrelevant to my reaction.

When I saw shraeye claim I immediately wanted to vote for him, because why the hell would you~

Then I didn't because, well, why would scum do it. If I was scum, and shraeye would be town, I would vote for him, I am pretty sure. So, well, vote: ADK seems awesome to me!

Also Space is clearly town!Space.

Also L-2 I think?

Why is space town? I'm genuinely curious, space is a player that I have a null read on 90% of the time, including now

[A Drowned Kernel]

I would vote for joth if people really don't want to join me on shraeye. His mix vote is pretty lazy and he's self-consciously mention the size of his own wagon twice now I think

[WestCoastDidds]

I would vote for joth if people really don't want to join me on shraeye. His mix vote is pretty lazy and he's self-consciously mention the size of his own wagon twice now I think

Do you think he’s scummy, though?

[A Drowned Kernel]

I would vote for joth if people really don't want to join me on shraeye. His mix vote is pretty lazy and he's self-consciously mention the size of his own wagon twice now I think

Do you think he’s scummy, though?

Yes, for the reasons I said

[jotheonah]

Wouldn't leaving my vote on you be lazier?

I think my MiX vote is fine. I agree with Didds that MiX is playing off-meta. He's playing lazy. And his case on me is garbage.

And like, yeah, I'm concerned about getting lynched. Guilty. Sue me. Consider: there may be reasons for this other than me being scum.

[MiX]

I'm just gonna

Unvote

And assume I'm right about something.

I think my MiX vote is fine. I agree with Didds that MiX is playing off-meta. He's playing lazy. And his case on me is garbage.

Yes, yes I am, sorry, I haven't been getting into this game as much as I'd like. And I think Didds is towny for spoting that. You're still lazier.

[jotheonah]

I'll also unvote. Meh y'all are too towny. Someone do something overtly scummy plz.

[Maxford]

Ok, so, maybe I should lay out what I was thinking with the whole flavor/shraeye thing

There was some discussion going on about whether or not there could be a connection between flavor name or role. There's nothing in the setup post indicating either way. People who have PRs might have insight into whether or not that's the case. If there's a lot of discussion of the subject, those people could inadvertently slip and reveal info to scum. Given that there doesn't seem to be any real benefit to the discussion, it made sense to me to say that we just shouldn't talk about it

shraeye then, in direct response to that, claims his flavor name. This action pretty much baits people into discussing the subject again, because it's a very ostentatious move, while allowing him cover behind "lol I'm just being wacky town". It's very similar to what I did in the Falling Skies game when I claimed my number right off the bat, basically because I wanted people to talk about numbers and flavor so that I could narrow down who my lynchee was. It's PR hunting with plausible deniability, which to me reads as extremely scummy

I'll look at some of these other wagons tomorrow morning, but I am honestly super happy with my shraeye vote and invite people to join me there

This sounds highly reasonable to me.

Also, I'm not quite sure why people are reading Space as towny. Admittedly, I've got a bias towards them -as in I have a vivid impression of them in my head, so it's easier to find connections between the things they say - but I find it strange that they first gave faust a one day pass because they thought faust would be an asset to town either way, and then gave faust towny points when they got the probabilities of people being scum right. It seems like a slight inconsistency, and, at least in real life mafia-like games, that's what I look for in scummy players.

vote: Space

(As a caveat, I'm still not super confident in my vote, and I'm mostly voting against Space to give them a chance to explain their behavior.)

[faust]

I find it strange that they first gave faust a one day pass because they thought faust would be an asset to town either way, and then gave faust towny points when they got the probabilities of people being scum right. It seems like a slight inconsistency, and, at least in real life mafia-like games, that's what I look for in scummy players.

I'm not sure what the inconsistency here is. Can you explain?

[Maxford]

I find it strange that they first gave faust a one day pass because they thought faust would be an asset to town either way, and then gave faust towny points when they got the probabilities of people being scum right. It seems like a slight inconsistency, and, at least in real life mafia-like games, that's what I look for in scummy players.

I'm not sure what the inconsistency here is. Can you explain?

Sure. It is inconsistent to think of you as someone who's good at data analysis and probabilities, even when scum, and also think you would make a mistake in probabilities as a scum. Does that make sense?

[MiX]

Ok, so, maybe I should lay out what I was thinking with the whole flavor/shraeye thing

There was some discussion going on about whether or not there could be a connection between flavor name or role. There's nothing in the setup post indicating either way. People who have PRs might have insight into whether or not that's the case. If there's a lot of discussion of the subject, those people could inadvertently slip and reveal info to scum. Given that there doesn't seem to be any real benefit to the discussion, it made sense to me to say that we just shouldn't talk about it

shraeye then, in direct response to that, claims his flavor name. This action pretty much baits people into discussing the subject again, because it's a very ostentatious move, while allowing him cover behind "lol I'm just being wacky town". It's very similar to what I did in the Falling Skies game when I claimed my number right off the bat, basically because I wanted people to talk about numbers and flavor so that I could narrow down who my lynchee was. It's PR hunting with plausible deniability, which to me reads as extremely scummy

I'll look at some of these other wagons tomorrow morning, but I am honestly super happy with my shraeye vote and invite people to join me there

This sounds highly reasonable to me.

Also, I'm not quite sure why people are reading Space as towny. Admittedly, I've got a bias towards them -as in I have a vivid impression of them in my head, so it's easier to find connections between the things they say - but I find it strange that they first gave faust a one day pass because they thought faust would be an asset to town either way, and then gave faust towny points when they got the probabilities of people being scum right. It seems like a slight inconsistency, and, at least in real life mafia-like games, that's what I look for in scummy players.

vote: Space

(As a caveat, I'm still not super confident in my vote, and I'm mostly voting against Space to give them a chance to explain their behavior.)

That's quite literally the easiest vote you could've made this game! Do you have any other reads?

[WestCoastDidds]

I would vote for joth if people really don't want to join me on shraeye. His mix vote is pretty lazy and he's self-consciously mention the size of his own wagon twice now I think

Do you think he’s scummy, though?

Yes, for the reasons I said

Ah, I thought those were reasons he was lazy, not scummy.

I see Joth doing more work than some other folks. Maybe some of the votes are lazy, but’s he’s not.

[faust]

I find it strange that they first gave faust a one day pass because they thought faust would be an asset to town either way, and then gave faust towny points when they got the probabilities of people being scum right. It seems like a slight inconsistency, and, at least in real life mafia-like games, that's what I look for in scummy players.

I'm not sure what the inconsistency here is. Can you explain?

Sure. It is inconsistent to think of you as someone who's good at data analysis and probabilities, even when scum, and also think you would make a mistake in probabilities as a scum. Does that make sense?

I mean, you only have to think that there's a nonzero probability of me getting it wrong... it might be a very weak read, but I don't think there's anything inconsistent about it.

[jotheonah]

I would vote for joth if people really don't want to join me on shraeye. His mix vote is pretty lazy and he's self-consciously mention the size of his own wagon twice now I think

Do you think he’s scummy, though?

Yes, for the reasons I said

Ah, I thought those were reasons he was lazy, not scummy.

I see Joth doing more work than some other folks. Maybe some of the votes are lazy, but’s he’s not.

That's nice of you to say, but I have been kind of lazy this game. Maybe I bit off two much with simultaneous games, maybe I just don't love day 1. In any event, laziness is not a scumtell. Idk why we're acting like it is. Scum is both actually working hard and more concerned with looking like they're working hard.

[faust]

In any event, laziness is not a scumtell. Idk why we're acting like it is. Scum is both actually working hard and more concerned with looking like they're working hard.

The day that the meta on this site shifts to "lurking is a towntell" is the day I will stop playing. Town should definitely be working at least as hard as scum.

[jotheonah]

In any event, laziness is not a scumtell. Idk why we're acting like it is. Scum is both actually working hard and more concerned with looking like they're working hard.

The day that the meta on this site shifts to "lurking is a towntell" is the day I will stop playing. Town should definitely be working at least as hard as scum.

Lurking is a nothing-tell. But on day 1, town is in a very different headspace than scum. It's the day when town has zero info and scum has lots of info. So town is more likely to be kind of overwhelmed and adrift-- they have nothing to work with. Scum has to imitate that but actually they know exactly who's scum and who they need to avoid lynching.

I'm not saying laziness is good or should be rewarded. I'm saying it's understandable on day 1, and on balance more likely to come from town.

[MiX]

I find it strange that they first gave faust a one day pass because they thought faust would be an asset to town either way, and then gave faust towny points when they got the probabilities of people being scum right. It seems like a slight inconsistency, and, at least in real life mafia-like games, that's what I look for in scummy players.

I'm not sure what the inconsistency here is. Can you explain?

Sure. It is inconsistent to think of you as someone who's good at data analysis and probabilities, even when scum, and also think you would make a mistake in probabilities as a scum. Does that make sense?

I mean, you only have to think that there's a nonzero probability of me getting it wrong... it might be a very weak read, but I don't think there's anything inconsistent about it.

I think this is lower than the odds of you doing that as town, so if anything it's a scumtell??

In any event, laziness is not a scumtell. Idk why we're acting like it is. Scum is both actually working hard and more concerned with looking like they're working hard.

The day that the meta on this site shifts to "lurking is a towntell" is the day I will stop playing. Town should definitely be working at least as hard as scum.

That ship has sailed when I arrived and got votes every game based on being active. And it will burn when you're ever lynched D1, but we're all trying to not let that happen.

In any event, laziness is not a scumtell. Idk why we're acting like it is. Scum is both actually working hard and more concerned with looking like they're working hard.

The day that the meta on this site shifts to "lurking is a towntell" is the day I will stop playing. Town should definitely be working at least as hard as scum.

Lurking is a nothing-tell. But on day 1, town is in a very different headspace than scum. It's the day when town has zero info and scum has lots of info. So town is more likely to be kind of overwhelmed and adrift-- they have nothing to work with. Scum has to imitate that but actually they know exactly who's scum and who they need to avoid lynching.

I'm not saying laziness is good or should be rewarded. I'm saying it's understandable on day 1, and on balance more likely to come from town.

Everything comes more from town...

[faust]

Lurking is a nothing-tell.
[...]
 on balance more likely to come from town.

So which is it?

[MiX]

Lurking is a nothing-tell.
[...]
 on balance more likely to come from town.

So which is it?

Do you want to lynch joth today?

[faust]

Lurking is a nothing-tell.
[...]
 on balance more likely to come from town.

So which is it?

Do you want to lynch joth today?

Maybe.

[jotheonah]

Lurking is a nothing-tell.
[...]
 on balance more likely to come from town.

So which is it?

lurking =/= laziness

lurking is a nothing tell
laziness is a slight town tell

any more questions?

[jotheonah]

faust's willingness to pounce on a perceived inconsistency, and then quote it in a way that makes it look like I was saying two contradictory things when I was not, is a scumtell, however.

vote: faust

[MiX]

faust's willingness to pounce on a perceived inconsistency, and then quote it in a way that makes it look like I was saying two contradictory things when I was not, is a scumtell, however.

vote: faust

Lurking is lazy. I don't think there's anything wrong with what faust did...except how he's still voting you.

[MiX]

faust's willingness to pounce on a perceived inconsistency, and then quote it in a way that makes it look like I was saying two contradictory things when I was not, is a scumtell, however.

vote: faust

Lurking is lazy. I don't think there's anything wrong with what faust did...except how he's still voting you.

I cut this too short: why are you voting faust anyway? He's not being lynched D1.

[jotheonah]

faust's willingness to pounce on a perceived inconsistency, and then quote it in a way that makes it look like I was saying two contradictory things when I was not, is a scumtell, however.

vote: faust

Lurking is lazy. I don't think there's anything wrong with what faust did...except how he's still voting you.

I cut this too short: why are you voting faust anyway? He's not being lynched D1.

Not with that attitude!

[A Drowned Kernel]

I would vote for joth if people really don't want to join me on shraeye. His mix vote is pretty lazy and he's self-consciously mention the size of his own wagon twice now I think

Do you think he’s scummy, though?

Yes, for the reasons I said

Ah, I thought those were reasons he was lazy, not scummy.

I see Joth doing more work than some other folks. Maybe some of the votes are lazy, but’s he’s not.

I see joth trying to look like he's doing more work than other folks but so far he's: sheeped other people to vote me, OMGUS'd mix, and OMGUS'd faust. The disparity between the quantity of his posts and their actual content is what's scummy

[jotheonah]

I guess I should be flattered that my meta has shifted to the point where people expect me to be useful on day 1.

[faust]

Lurking is a nothing-tell.
[...]
 on balance more likely to come from town.

So which is it?

lurking =/= laziness

lurking is a nothing tell
laziness is a slight town tell

any more questions?

So what's the difference then?

[Joseph2302]

faust's willingness to pounce on a perceived inconsistency, and then quote it in a way that makes it look like I was saying two contradictory things when I was not, is a scumtell, however.

vote: faust

Lurking is lazy. I don't think there's anything wrong with what faust did...except how he's still voting you.

We lynched faust D1 once
He was town and it was dumb. We did it just because it hadn't been done before
Don't recommend doing again. As the case for it seems weak

[SpaceAnemone]

Joseph wagon is bad. What's it a counterwagon to? Joth?

Why did you think the wagon was bad? Was it just because it sprang up quite fast and you thought there were more votes on him until you went back and looked, or do you have some reason you think Joseph shouldn't be a lynch?

[SpaceAnemone]

It is inconsistent to think of you as someone who's good at data analysis and probabilities, even when scum, and also think you would make a mistake in probabilities as a scum. Does that make sense?

I mean, you only have to think that there's a nonzero probability of me getting it wrong... it might be a very weak read, but I don't think there's anything inconsistent about it.

Joseph came pretty close to having it wrong, but I hold you to to rather different standards:

D1 is a crapshoot, that we have a 4/14 chance of winning

-- any given one of us has a 4/13 chance of voting right as town, so that's really the "crapshoot". I think the probabilities of any given lynch hitting scum are poorer than 4/14 overall, because scum starts out with more information than town. It's the kind of thing I'd have worried if faust had argued for, but it's not necessarily anything too unexpected from Joseph.

[SpaceAnemone]

Going back quite a ways, but this was the post that made me think that it might be town!MiX for this game, because it seemed a relaxed response to having someone suggest he might be scum. Am I misreading it?

maxford is too long, at least when ppl will inevitably call you max.

Take this game as a sample: some people can't even manage the vowels in "people" ;-)

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

Dream team! I think.

Space, got any insights that you wanna share or any early votes? I know you don't do much D1 but still.

[SpaceAnemone]

Seems my last vote didn't work.

Vote: ADK

Huh.. this re-vote for ADK came after their explanation of why they'd voted for Shraeye over the card-claiming.

I thought it was solid reasoning from ADK.

@Shraeye, do you disagree?

[jotheonah]

faust's willingness to pounce on a perceived inconsistency, and then quote it in a way that makes it look like I was saying two contradictory things when I was not, is a scumtell, however.

vote: faust

Lurking is lazy. I don't think there's anything wrong with what faust did...except how he's still voting you.

We lynched faust D1 once
He was town and it was dumb. We did it just because it hadn't been done before
Don't recommend doing again. As the case for it seems weak

Faust isn’t special. He’s exactly as likely to be scum as anyone else.

[jotheonah]

Lurking is a nothing-tell.
[...]
 on balance more likely to come from town.

So which is it?

lurking =/= laziness

lurking is a nothing tell
laziness is a slight town tell

any more questions?

So what's the difference then?

Laziness is a whole family of behaviors, of which lurking is just one.

[jotheonah]

Also, not all lurkers are lazy. Some are lurking strategically.

[MiX]

Joseph wagon is bad. What's it a counterwagon to? Joth?

Why did you think the wagon was bad? Was it just because it sprang up quite fast and you thought there were more votes on him until you went back and looked, or do you have some reason you think Joseph shouldn't be a lynch?

Joseph is not only towny but a terrible D1 lynch, pretty much all the time. And yes, I thought the wagon was bigger, but really it being smaller means the individual votes were bad anyway.

It is inconsistent to think of you as someone who's good at data analysis and probabilities, even when scum, and also think you would make a mistake in probabilities as a scum. Does that make sense?

I mean, you only have to think that there's a nonzero probability of me getting it wrong... it might be a very weak read, but I don't think there's anything inconsistent about it.

Joseph came pretty close to having it wrong, but I hold you to to rather different standards:

D1 is a crapshoot, that we have a 4/14 chance of winning

-- any given one of us has a 4/13 chance of voting right as town, so that's really the "crapshoot". I think the probabilities of any given lynch hitting scum are poorer than 4/14 overall, because scum starts out with more information than town. It's the kind of thing I'd have worried if faust had argued for, but it's not necessarily anything too unexpected from Joseph.

I don't think this is in any way game relevant.

Now that's out of the way, D1 is really 4/14 chance of winning, because, yes, town can make themselves die, and although scum can protect themselves they also magically get voted up for being scummy, mostly because town is good at reading enough to make this happen.

Also, not all lurkers are lazy. Some are lurking strategically.

Pfffft. Bad town then. Like raptor, what's he been doing? Do I have a vote?

Vote: raptor

[SpaceAnemone]

I would vote for joth if people really don't want to join me on shraeye. His mix vote is pretty lazy and he's self-consciously mention the size of his own wagon twice now I think

Do you think he’s scummy, though?

Yes, for the reasons I said

Ah, I thought those were reasons he was lazy, not scummy.

I see Joth doing more work than some other folks. Maybe some of the votes are lazy, but’s he’s not.

I think he's been making a number of posts, but that the density of quality information is still pretty low. He had an exchange where he wanted to be sold on the ADK wagon (no case made; inviting others to make cases), then made the ADK summary post that drew criticism for being literally a bunch of quotes with no analysis. Then suggests that people might want to make cases on Joseph at #155. Normally it's quite advantageous to scum if they can make a wagon look like it's been generated by townies, so asking for too much case-making from other people doesn't look great to me.

He engages a bit with Maxford, but that kind of tutoring is alignment-null. And then there was my point about him jumping too quickly to the "Maxford is town" conclusion, and then twisting my posts a bit for an omgusy vote when I called him on it. Add to that ADK's observation about Joth sounding a bit too conscious of the votes on him, and it's a bit of a bare-bones case.

Huh.. I meant that to be a re-read focusing on the lazy-vs-lurky distinction, but I think I'm just going to vote on the back of it now!

Vote: Joth

[SpaceAnemone]

Joseph is not only towny but a terrible D1 lynch, pretty much all the time.

Can we delve into that some more please? What specifically makes him townie here? Why would it be terrible to lynch him on D1 in this game specifically?

[SpaceAnemone]

Bedtime for now, but here's the current Space Count:

Shraeye (1): A Drowned Kernel
MiX (1): WestCoastDidds
Eevee (1): raerae
raerae (1): Joseph2302
A Drowned Kernel (2): LaLight, Shraeye
Joseph2302 (2): Eevee, Xxraptorslayer96
jotheonah (3): Galzria, faust, SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): Maxford
faust (1): jotheonah
Xxraptorslayer96 (1): MiX

[MiX]

Space, can you post the updated VC? I don't wanna do all that work, it's boring to do so manually.

Joth is town but the votes are correct.

Joseph is not only towny but a terrible D1 lynch, pretty much all the time.

Can we delve into that some more please? What specifically makes him townie here? Why would it be terrible to lynch him on D1 in this game specifically?

You're fishing for something and I don't like it. I think Joseph is a strong player later in the game, and as early as day 2, and his day 1 performance makes him look way worse than what he is. That's what I've gathered from him, and I want to see if this is true.

PPE: Thank you for doing what I was about to ask.

[MiX]

Can someone tell me if flavor usually plays a large role in mafia games? And also I don't see why this reaction to the flavor claim is more likely to come from scum? is this obvious to other people?

Hey FORD what do you think of the game so far? Got any reads? Where would you place your vote?

That's quite literally the easiest vote you could've made this game! Do you have any other reads?

Can you answer these maxford?

[Maxford]

Can someone tell me if flavor usually plays a large role in mafia games? And also I don't see why this reaction to the flavor claim is more likely to come from scum? is this obvious to other people?

Hey FORD what do you think of the game so far? Got any reads? Where would you place your vote?

That's quite literally the easiest vote you could've made this game! Do you have any other reads?

Can you answer these maxford?

I don't know, it seems to me that people are reading too much from little details.

But my current feelings is that I can see some people seem like they're looking for scum, like Mix, Space, ADK, and or even Joth, so I'm kind of inclined not to lynch them on day 1. Also, my models of people aren't that good, so I don't really know what's out of character for each and every player.

while I understand the reasoning behind their “no-lynch D1 passes” list, it’s lazy and something I could very much see scum!Space going to allow themselves the freedom to not make real reads - something Space knows isn’t their strong suit, especially D1 before any real data is available.

I'm still unsure how to interpret Galzria's arguments. People seemed to think that Space's D1-passes were reasonable (and given my model of Space, it seems highly plausible that town!Space would allow the same passes), so the fact that Galzria's is trying to make a case against Space based on those seem a bit weird.

@ MiX. I realize this post is very weak, but I'm trying to learn from you guys as I go, and I'm regularly rereading past posts to try to form models of people here and try to check if anything looks/sounds suspicious. Hope I can be more and more helpful as time goes by!

[Maxford]

Last post came out wrong, reposing with correct quotations.

Can someone tell me if flavor usually plays a large role in mafia games? And also I don't see why this reaction to the flavor claim is more likely to come from scum? is this obvious to other people?

Hey FORD what do you think of the game so far? Got any reads? Where would you place your vote?

That's quite literally the easiest vote you could've made this game! Do you have any other reads?

Can you answer these maxford?

I don't know, it seems to me that people are reading too much from little details.

But my current feelings is that I can see some people seem like they're looking for scum, like Mix, Space, ADK, and or even Joth, so I'm kind of inclined not to lynch them on day 1. Also, my models of people aren't that good, so I don't really know what's out of character for each and every player.

while I understand the reasoning behind their “no-lynch D1 passes” list, it’s lazy and something I could very much see scum!Space going to allow themselves the freedom to not make real reads - something Space knows isn’t their strong suit, especially D1 before any real data is available.

I'm still unsure how to interpret Galzria's arguments. People seemed to think that Space's D1-passes were reasonable (and given my model of Space, it seems highly plausible that town!Space would allow the same passes), so the fact that Galzria's is trying to make a case against Space based on those seem a bit weird.

@ MiX. I realize this post is very weak, but I'm trying to learn from you guys as I go, and I'm regularly rereading past posts to try to form models of people here and try to check if anything looks/sounds suspicious. Hope I can be more and more helpful as time goes by!

[shraeye]

Seems my last vote didn't work.

Vote: ADK

Huh.. this re-vote for ADK came after their explanation of why they'd voted for Shraeye over the card-claiming.

I thought it was solid reasoning from ADK.

@Shraeye, do you disagree?

Yes.  It was reasoning; but it didn't sit right with me.

[shraeye]

so the fact that Galzria's is trying to make a case against Space based on those seem a bit weird.

Seems a bit weird? Please elaborate. Is that a bad thing?

Do you think Galz's thinking is flawed?  Is it just not a train of thought you're used to?  Do you think it's dishonest reasoning?

Is Galz bad, good, or are you unsure?

[raerae]

Sorry, folks, I've got exactly this much brain power left after today:

Ruling player A or player B out because historically they play well late game if they survive that long if they're town *insert additional qualifiers here* is some straight nonsense dangerous thinking. Anybody leaning so hard on that they aren't willing to entertain the possibility of lynching A or B is getting all my suspicion.

[WestCoastDidds]

Sheesh...I hate this not quite sure if anything feeling.

I still think MiX is playing differently than he usually does.
I am not a fan of saying we won’t lunch faust or whomever on D1 because if they are scum they can just hide behind that!or lean into it to the detriment of town
MiX making that argument doesn’t make me feel better about him playing differently than usual.

Thinking about strategic lurking...where are Galz and Raptor?  How do we discern between being busy and lurking thus letting town eat each other up. Having recently been killed while on vacation I’m trying to balance my understanding of life-busy and the game. But at some point.... come on, right?

I find it easy to trust Joth. It’s hard for me to trust ADK, but I often should. I don’t especially want to see either gone now.

[faust]

Also, not all lurkers are lazy. Some are lurking strategically.

You're not exactly giving me reasons against lynching lurkers here.

[faust]

Faust isn’t special.

But my mom always said otherwise!

[faust]

Vote: Raptor

[Joseph2302]

faust's willingness to pounce on a perceived inconsistency, and then quote it in a way that makes it look like I was saying two contradictory things when I was not, is a scumtell, however.

vote: faust

Lurking is lazy. I don't think there's anything wrong with what faust did...except how he's still voting you.

We lynched faust D1 once
He was town and it was dumb. We did it just because it hadn't been done before
Don't recommend doing again. As the case for it seems weak

Faust isn’t special. He’s exactly as likely to be scum as anyone else.

He's also a very useful town player later in the game, who keeps the game moving

[LaLight]

vote: joth, he's a bit too jokey and overdefensive.

MiX does feel a bit different from before, namely he is not scummy. Weird

[MiX]

Joth votes are silly at this point. Or are they?

Vote: joth, just do your thing, that'll get the game going.

[MiX]

Wait did I forget LaLight's LaLight again?

Vote: LaLight

[Joseph2302]

Does anyone have a post counting app? Just curious to find out who's not contributing

[SpaceAnemone]

Player post counts:
   49 MiX
   36 jotheonah
   30 SpaceAnemone
   25 faust
   20 Joseph2302
   18 raerae
   18 Shraeye
   15 A Drowned Kernel
   15 Eevee
   14 WestCoastDidds
   9 Maxford
   6 LaLight
   5 Galzria
   5 Xxraptorslayer96

[Maxford]

so the fact that Galzria's is trying to make a case against Space based on those seem a bit weird.

Seems a bit weird? Please elaborate. Is that a bad thing?

Do you think Galz's thinking is flawed?  Is it just not a train of thought you're used to?  Do you think it's dishonest reasoning?

Is Galz bad, good, or are you unsure?

If Galz has the same model of Space as I do (and that other people seem to have), then making a case against Space based on the D1-passes is I think bad reasoning, and so slightly dishonest from Galz, and so makes Galz a bit more likely to be scum.

If however they don't have a very good model of Space, then that doesn't tell me anything.

[Maxford]

Sorry, folks, I've got exactly this much brain power left after today:

Ruling player A or player B out because historically they play well late game if they survive that long if they're town *insert additional qualifiers here* is some straight nonsense dangerous thinking. Anybody leaning so hard on that they aren't willing to entertain the possibility of lynching A or B is getting all my suspicion.

What are you referring to exactly? I think the line of reasoning that was going on with Space's pass for faust was that scum!faust would be as much an asset for town as would town!faust be, not that town!faust would be a great asset to have late game.

[Maxford]

vote: joth, he's a bit too jokey and overdefensive.

MiX does feel a bit different from before, namely he is not scummy. Weird

People keep saying Mix is acting differently than usual, could people elaborate on the differences? Seems to me is actively looking for scum and his posts make sense.

[MiX]

vote: joth, he's a bit too jokey and overdefensive.

MiX does feel a bit different from before, namely he is not scummy. Weird

People keep saying Mix is acting differently than usual, could people elaborate on the differences? Seems to me is actively looking for scum and his posts make sense.

Well, you don't know my meta, usually my posts don't make sense.

Actually, have you done any meta reading? You should, even if just during the night.

[Maxford]

Player post counts:
   49 MiX
   36 jotheonah
   30 SpaceAnemone
   25 faust
   20 Joseph2302
   18 raerae
   18 Shraeye
   15 A Drowned Kernel
   15 Eevee
   14 WestCoastDidds
   9 Maxford
   6 LaLight
   5 Galzria
   5 Xxraptorslayer96

Do you have a counter weighted by number of words? Or by anything that's not likely to advantage people who post a number of small posts in a row (which I'm aware is exactly what I'm doing right now, but I don't think I should get participation credit for it)?

[Maxford]

vote: joth, he's a bit too jokey and overdefensive.

MiX does feel a bit different from before, namely he is not scummy. Weird

People keep saying Mix is acting differently than usual, could people elaborate on the differences? Seems to me is actively looking for scum and his posts make sense.

Well, you don't know my meta, usually my posts don't make sense.

Actually, have you done any meta reading? You should, even if just during the night.

What do you call meta reading?

[MiX]

What do you call meta reading?

Reading previous games, it helps to get a feel of everyone's metas, which helps you read them in this game. I highly reccomend it, especially when you're new to the scene.

Do you have a counter weighted by number of words? Or by anything that's not likely to advantage people who post a number of small posts in a row (which I'm aware is exactly what I'm doing right now, but I don't think I should get participation credit for it)?

There's no weight, it's just by number of posts. Stringing a bunch of them is still better than not doing any at all.

[SpaceAnemone]

Do you have a counter weighted by number of words? Or by anything that's not likely to advantage people who post a number of small posts in a row (which I'm aware is exactly what I'm doing right now, but I don't think I should get participation credit for it)?

Haha, yeah I noticed that the moment I posted something showing that your post number was still in single figures, you made three posts in quick succession!

I don't have one that weights by words. It wouldn't be hard to do, but has enough little complexities (like not crediting people for quoting big blocks of other people's text) that I don't want to let myself think about it too much during work hours :-P

[Eevee]

I’m not going to be very available until sunday.

Everyone but Maxford feels scummy. Shraeye (or as my phone would have it, she eye) little bit towny too.

[faust]

Does anyone have a post counting app? Just curious to find out who's not contributing

That really doesn't require an app, just view all and Ctrl+F the players to see how many posts they have.

[WestCoastDidds]

vote: joth, he's a bit too jokey and overdefensive.

MiX does feel a bit different from before, namely he is not scummy. Weird

People keep saying Mix is acting differently than usual, could people elaborate on the differences? Seems to me is actively looking for scum and his posts make sense.

Howdy Maxford...Mets is the word we use to describe folks usual style. For people that have been playing for awhile, they tend to conduct themselves in a certain way. For example, people would say that I have longer posts that share my thinking but often don’t have a concrete decision, that I have a hard time making any sort of case early in the game, that I talk about a lot of off-topic stuff. That’s all true, and so for me, that’s meta. I’m town a lot (as most people are statistically) so having an off topic conversation, for me, isn’t scummy. For someone else whose super game focused (Galzria for example) it would be unusual for him to be off topic so if he did it, it might look like he was just trying to post something that wouldn’t get him in trouble, thus scummy. (He’s not doing that in this game, it’s just an example...he’s rather absent, though, which is unusual).

So, Space does numbers, faust to some extent, too. LaLi is super nice, as is Eevee. Joth is active and conversational, MiX asks lots of individually targeted questions and votes all over the place, Shraeye and raerae (who are married IRL) poke at each other. That’s meta.

As for MiX...it’s not helpful for me to articulate right now what I see that he’s doing differently because I think he might be scum. If he is, he could use that information to seem more towny. So, really I’m appealing to people who have played with him before yo look and see what he’s doing differently. He usually seems scummy when he’s town, so the fact that people see him as town is a difference right off the bat.

[WestCoastDidds]

I’m not going to be very available until sunday.

Everyone but Maxford feels scummy. Shraeye (or as my phone would have it, she eye) little bit towny too.

I hope you are doing something fun and exciting!!

[jotheonah]

Idk Didds. I know I’m contradicting something I said before, but I don’t really think MiX is significantly off-meta this game.

Maxford is my favorite newbie in a long time. Let’s give his wagon a chance.

Vote: Galzria

[MiX]

Vote: Galzria

[raerae]

Sorry, folks, I've got exactly this much brain power left after today:

Ruling player A or player B out because historically they play well late game if they survive that long if they're town *insert additional qualifiers here* is some straight nonsense dangerous thinking. Anybody leaning so hard on that they aren't willing to entertain the possibility of lynching A or B is getting all my suspicion.

What are you referring to exactly? I think the line of reasoning that was going on with Space's pass for faust was that scum!faust would be as much an asset for town as would town!faust be, not that town!faust would be a great asset to have late game.

faust and Joseph are both getting no lunch passes and I just can't get behind that regardless of the player, regardless of the reason. A newbie D1 pass barely cuts mustard for me so saying somebody might be useful or we'll totally, definitely, absolutely know their alignment later so we should lunch elsewhere makes my eyes roll straight out of my head. I think it's an easy position for scum to hide behind whether to score points with town, to keep their buddies alive, or to simply look like they're making a stand but putting no effort behind it.

[Joseph2302]

Does anyone have a post counting app? Just curious to find out who's not contributing

That really doesn't require an app, just view all and Ctrl+F the players to see how many posts they have.

Doesn't work on mobile that easily. And 90+% of my posting is from mobile

Ppe:1

[Joseph2302]

Sorry, folks, I've got exactly this much brain power left after today:

Ruling player A or player B out because historically they play well late game if they survive that long if they're town *insert additional qualifiers here* is some straight nonsense dangerous thinking. Anybody leaning so hard on that they aren't willing to entertain the possibility of lynching A or B is getting all my suspicion.

What are you referring to exactly? I think the line of reasoning that was going on with Space's pass for faust was that scum!faust would be as much an asset for town as would town!faust be, not that town!faust would be a great asset to have late game.

faust and Joseph are both getting no lunch passes and I just can't get behind that regardless of the player, regardless of the reason. A newbie D1 pass barely cuts mustard for me so saying somebody might be useful or we'll totally, definitely, absolutely know their alignment later so we should lunch elsewhere makes my eyes roll straight out of my head. I think it's an easy position for scum to hide behind whether to score points with town, to keep their buddies alive, or to simply look like they're making a stand but putting no effort behind it.

I also have no idea why I'm getting one, and why people think I'm useful the more the game goes on. The mind boggles.

[jotheonah]

Sorry, folks, I've got exactly this much brain power left after today:

Ruling player A or player B out because historically they play well late game if they survive that long if they're town *insert additional qualifiers here* is some straight nonsense dangerous thinking. Anybody leaning so hard on that they aren't willing to entertain the possibility of lynching A or B is getting all my suspicion.

What are you referring to exactly? I think the line of reasoning that was going on with Space's pass for faust was that scum!faust would be as much an asset for town as would town!faust be, not that town!faust would be a great asset to have late game.

faust and Joseph are both getting no lunch passes and I just can't get behind that regardless of the player, regardless of the reason. A newbie D1 pass barely cuts mustard for me so saying somebody might be useful or we'll totally, definitely, absolutely know their alignment later so we should lunch elsewhere makes my eyes roll straight out of my head. I think it's an easy position for scum to hide behind whether to score points with town, to keep their buddies alive, or to simply look like they're making a stand but putting no effort behind it.

I agree with raerae 100% here. It's bad policy. And also it balances out, right? Good town players tend to be good scum players. So if someone gives us a +100 advantage by being around in the late game as town, they also give us a -100 advantage by being around in the late game as scum.

[MiX]

I agree with raerae 100% here. It's bad policy. And also it balances out, right? Good town players tend to be good scum players. So if someone gives us a +100 advantage by being around in the late game as town, they also give us a -100 advantage by being around in the late game as scum.

But Joseph isn't good scum, he's just someone that is much easier to read as the game progresses. And is almost always scummy D1. Maybe I'm biased since I've been in Speccy during the games I would quote as examples, but still.

Lynching faust D1 is just a mistake. That reminds me I need to actually read his scum game, I don't think I ever got around to it last time I said this.

[Maxford]

I’m not going to be very available until sunday.

Everyone but Maxford feels scummy. Shraeye (or as my phone would have it, she eye) little bit towny too.

What's motivating your read on Shraeye?

[Joseph2302]

I agree with raerae 100% here. It's bad policy. And also it balances out, right? Good town players tend to be good scum players. So if someone gives us a +100 advantage by being around in the late game as town, they also give us a -100 advantage by being around in the late game as scum.

But Joseph isn't good scum, he's just someone that is much easier to read as the game progresses. And is almost always scummy D1. Maybe I'm biased since I've been in Speccy during the games I would quote as examples, but still.

Lynching faust D1 is just a mistake. That reminds me I need to actually read his scum game, I don't think I ever got around to it last time I said this.

I haven't been scum on here for over 2 years. Good reason to assume I'm town

[WestCoastDidds]

I still feel like MiX is off, but when I was writing up my example about what Galzy wasn’t doing, I thought it would be okay to move there because he’s more absent than usual. I know life and other games and stuff, but...

Vote: Galz

[raerae]

I agree with raerae 100% here. It's bad policy. And also it balances out, right? Good town players tend to be good scum players. So if someone gives us a +100 advantage by being around in the late game as town, they also give us a -100 advantage by being around in the late game as scum.

But Joseph isn't good scum, he's just someone that is much easier to read as the game progresses. And is almost always scummy D1. Maybe I'm biased since I've been in Speccy during the games I would quote as examples, but still.

Lynching faust D1 is just a mistake. That reminds me I need to actually read his scum game, I don't think I ever got around to it last time I said this.

So Joseph just pointed out he hasn't been scum for two years.  Why do you believe he's bad at scum when you don't have a recent example?

[raerae]

I still feel like MiX is off, but when I was writing up my example about what Galzy wasn’t doing, I thought it would be okay to move there because he’s more absent than usual. I know life and other games and stuff, but...

Vote: Galz

Is the entirety of the Galz case just that he's lurking?

[MiX]

I agree with raerae 100% here. It's bad policy. And also it balances out, right? Good town players tend to be good scum players. So if someone gives us a +100 advantage by being around in the late game as town, they also give us a -100 advantage by being around in the late game as scum.

But Joseph isn't good scum, he's just someone that is much easier to read as the game progresses. And is almost always scummy D1. Maybe I'm biased since I've been in Speccy during the games I would quote as examples, but still.

Lynching faust D1 is just a mistake. That reminds me I need to actually read his scum game, I don't think I ever got around to it last time I said this.

So Joseph just pointed out he hasn't been scum for two years.  Why do you believe he's bad at scum when you don't have a recent example?

I remember reading a game where he was scum, and he was only okay, compared to how obv!town he was when he was town in the games I've played.

I still feel like MiX is off, but when I was writing up my example about what Galzy wasn’t doing, I thought it would be okay to move there because he’s more absent than usual. I know life and other games and stuff, but...

Vote: Galz

Is the entirety of the Galz case just that he's lurking?

Yes. Where are you voting and what's your case?

[raerae]

I agree with raerae 100% here. It's bad policy. And also it balances out, right? Good town players tend to be good scum players. So if someone gives us a +100 advantage by being around in the late game as town, they also give us a -100 advantage by being around in the late game as scum.

But Joseph isn't good scum, he's just someone that is much easier to read as the game progresses. And is almost always scummy D1. Maybe I'm biased since I've been in Speccy during the games I would quote as examples, but still.

Lynching faust D1 is just a mistake. That reminds me I need to actually read his scum game, I don't think I ever got around to it last time I said this.

So Joseph just pointed out he hasn't been scum for two years.  Why do you believe he's bad at scum when you don't have a recent example?

I remember reading a game where he was scum, and he was only okay, compared to how obv!town he was when he was town in the games I've played.

I still feel like MiX is off, but when I was writing up my example about what Galzy wasn’t doing, I thought it would be okay to move there because he’s more absent than usual. I know life and other games and stuff, but...

Vote: Galz

Is the entirety of the Galz case just that he's lurking?

Yes. Where are you voting and what's your case?

1) When you reread old games do you know the outcome and teams prior to starting your read?
2) But why Galz?  There more than one lurker.
2a) #243 & #247

[MiX]

1) Pretty much always, yeah. I can already hear the response to this in the air, but hey, this method has worked so far, I have no regrets.

2) Cause joth voted Galz. LL is another great wagon, but it's small right now, not very useful to be voting there.

2a) Thank you and...I think I agree with Eevee, you jumped too fast on too little. Don't think that's good enough of a case IMO.

[Joseph2302]

I agree with raerae 100% here. It's bad policy. And also it balances out, right? Good town players tend to be good scum players. So if someone gives us a +100 advantage by being around in the late game as town, they also give us a -100 advantage by being around in the late game as scum.

But Joseph isn't good scum, he's just someone that is much easier to read as the game progresses. And is almost always scummy D1. Maybe I'm biased since I've been in Speccy during the games I would quote as examples, but still.

Lynching faust D1 is just a mistake. That reminds me I need to actually read his scum game, I don't think I ever got around to it last time I said this.

So Joseph just pointed out he hasn't been scum for two years.  Why do you believe he's bad at scum when you don't have a recent example?

I remember reading a game where he was scum, and he was only okay, compared to how obv!town he was when he was town in the games I've played.

I still feel like MiX is off, but when I was writing up my example about what Galzy wasn’t doing, I thought it would be okay to move there because he’s more absent than usual. I know life and other games and stuff, but...

Vote: Galz

Is the entirety of the Galz case just that he's lurking?

Yes. Where are you voting and what's your case?

In fairness, thinking about it, there was 1 game a few months back where i was (terrible) scum,  maybe it's that one....

Although all of this feels like "white knighting" (for anyone who doesn't know the terminology, that's a scum player accusing a town player of being good to try and improve their street cred) to me

Vote: mix

[raerae]

1) Pretty much always, yeah. I can already hear the response to this in the air, but hey, this method has worked so far, I have no regrets.

2) Cause joth voted Galz. LL is another great wagon, but it's small right now, not very useful to be voting there.

2a) Thank you and...I think I agree with Eevee, you jumped too fast on too little. Don't think that's good enough of a case IMO.

I don't understand how you have so much confidence in something that is confirmation bias at it's most extreme but this weirdly helps me understand you better.  This is uncharted territory and I need a moment.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I’m not going to be very available until sunday.

Everyone but Maxford feels scummy. Shraeye (or as my phone would have it, she eye) little bit towny too.

What seems towny to you about shraeye?

[WestCoastDidds]

I still feel like MiX is off, but when I was writing up my example about what Galzy wasn’t doing, I thought it would be okay to move there because he’s more absent than usual. I know life and other games and stuff, but...

Vote: Galz

Is the entirety of the Galz case just that he's lurking?

I'm listening to Joth. And that he's not doing the work that he normally does (consequence of lurking, I guess, but when he does post its less insightful).  There seem to be a handful of folks who are not as they usually are. He's one of them. MiX is still my preference, but no one else seems interested...

[SpaceAnemone]

faust and Joseph are both getting no lunch passes and I just can't get behind that regardless of the player, regardless of the reason. A newbie D1 pass barely cuts mustard for me so saying somebody might be useful or we'll totally, definitely, absolutely know their alignment later so we should lunch elsewhere makes my eyes roll straight out of my head. I think it's an easy position for scum to hide behind whether to score points with town, to keep their buddies alive, or to simply look like they're making a stand but putting no effort behind it.

I agree with raerae 100% here. It's bad policy. And also it balances out, right? Good town players tend to be good scum players. So if someone gives us a +100 advantage by being around in the late game as town, they also give us a -100 advantage by being around in the late game as scum.

I mostly disagree with raerae, and I've already argued with someone (Galz, I think.. who's now your leading scum candidate?) about why I don't think "hiding behind" is something it's fair to characterise me as doing with my D1-pass list at least. Not sure where to Joseph D1 pass thing came from.. was it MiX? That's not something I'd ever advocate for.

As for town utility, no I completely disagree that it's symmetric, and that's a really key part of my heuristic. Faust, or anyone else known for logical inference (MiX is strong on this, and I expect Maxford will be) can't really twist things too far without it being possible for one of the rest of us in the maths corner to feel like something is up, so he has to keep posting town-useful content even as scum. Yes, maybe he can mastermind even more devious plans over in the scum QT, but he's going to be limited to whatever his buddies can help him orchestrate. So if late-town!faust gives +100, I think late-scum!faust still has to give +50, even if he's also able to give -50 behind the scenes by telling scum how to act, assuming he's got obedient scumbuddies who're willing to take cues from him. In comparison, a late-town!lurker might only give us +5, but the same player might give a consistent -5 as scum, so overall they're the better candidate for town to lynch when we just can't tell the difference between them and faust.

I guess all this boils down to the question of how much we believe that on D1 we have little info. I came at my personal D1-pass list from the point of view of all other things being equal. I think you and Raerae, and a few other players, are much more sensitive to tone reads and that sort of thing than I am, so perhaps for you there's a lot more separating the field than there is for me. So I don't mind being questioned and kept in check so people are sure I'm not scum hiding behind a list, but I do mind being scumread by default, or accused of playing eye-rollingly badly, for admitting to using heuristics to get through the game opening.

[SpaceAnemone]

I still feel like MiX is off, but when I was writing up my example about what Galzy wasn’t doing, I thought it would be okay to move there because he’s more absent than usual. I know life and other games and stuff, but...

Vote: Galz

Is the entirety of the Galz case just that he's lurking?

I'm listening to Joth. And that he's not doing the work that he normally does (consequence of lurking, I guess, but when he does post its less insightful).  There seem to be a handful of folks who are not as they usually are. He's one of them. MiX is still my preference, but no one else seems interested...

I'm pretty much scumreading Joth. And Galz is voting for Joth, so he's at least a bit engaged :-) Are there any non-lurker-related reasons to think Galz is a baddie?

[MiX]

In fairness, thinking about it, there was 1 game a few months back where i was (terrible) scum,  maybe it's that one....

Although all of this feels like "white knighting" (for anyone who doesn't know the terminology, that's a scum player accusing a town player of being good to try and improve their street cred) to me

Vote: mix

That must've been the game I read then.

Your vote is terrible. You're actually being towny, and there's no way I'm accepting a towny Joseph to be lynched. It's just pointless and a regression of your meta. Voting me for saying this is paranoia.

[WestCoastDidds]

I'm listening to Joth. And that he's not doing the work that he normally does (consequence of lurking, I guess, but when he does post its less insightful).  There seem to be a handful of folks who are not as they usually are. He's one of them. MiX is still my preference, but no one else seems interested...

I'm pretty much scumreading Joth. And Galz is voting for Joth, so he's at least a bit engaged :-) Are there any non-lurker-related reasons to think Galz is a baddie?
[/quote]

Ha! We are pretty much at opposite orientations right now...I trust Joth for the time being. As for the Galz vote, I said that I don't think he is doing the kind of work that he normally does. Could be reasons for that, but one of them is that he's scum.  Admittedly, it is not some kind of awesome case with pages of support, but that doesn't really exist for anyone right now and even if it did it, still might be town. 

[WestCoastDidds]

I'm listening to Joth. And that he's not doing the work that he normally does (consequence of lurking, I guess, but when he does post its less insightful).  There seem to be a handful of folks who are not as they usually are. He's one of them. MiX is still my preference, but no one else seems interested...

I'm pretty much scumreading Joth. And Galz is voting for Joth, so he's at least a bit engaged :-) Are there any non-lurker-related reasons to think Galz is a baddie?

Ha! We are pretty much at opposite orientations right now...I trust Joth for the time being. As for the Galz vote, I said that I don't think he is doing the kind of work that he normally does. Could be reasons for that, but one of them is that he's scum.  Admittedly, it is not some kind of awesome case with pages of support, but that doesn't really exist for anyone right now and even if it did it, still might be town.

EBWOP: Quote fail again.  I blame my phone.  Sorry, yall

[jotheonah]

This situation is such a mess. I voted Galz for the flimsiest justification that I like Maxford and I want to sheep his read. And then MiX and Didds vote Galz because I'm voting Galz, even though MiX was scumreading me fairly recently. Is it just me, or do Didds and MiX look bad here?

Everyone's being lazy (except Maxford I guess). The only person I'm hard townreading right now is raerae, tbh. She is playing her town meta to a T.

The non-lazy thing would be to actually, like, do some re-reading and look for a solid case. That's probably the sort of thing people who think I usually work harder than this are waiting for me to do. And honestly it probably is the next thing I'm going to do. Just not sure when I'll have time. When is deadline?

I know this will probably strike some people as scummy, but I don't think the people scumreading me are scummy for it. I think if I were not me and were watching my play today I'd be scumreading me too. All the points are valid. They just happen to be wrong.

Didds is always a coin flip read for me. I've rarely seen her be scum. But her town meta is pretty scum-friendly and easily imitated. So I never have confidence that she's town, which is often a bummer because she always seems to have this high confidence that I'm town. But the fact that she's townreading me so hard right now when I don't really deserve it... I don't like it.

MiX, on the other hand, is being inconsistent, is posting a lot without saying a ton, is throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks... I think this is town!MiX. It seems par for the course for him and it's the sort of behavior that consistently gets him almost mislynched on day 1.

I'm not ready to vote for WCD yet (maybe because her buddying is super-effective). I'll leave my vote on Galz for now, but will hopefully come out of a re-read with a real case. People should hopefully know that generally when I promise a re-read I do deliver.

[SpaceAnemone]

Ha! We are pretty much at opposite orientations right now...I trust Joth for the time being. As for the Galz vote, I said that I don't think he is doing the kind of work that he normally does. Could be reasons for that, but one of them is that he's scum.  Admittedly, it is not some kind of awesome case with pages of support, but that doesn't really exist for anyone right now and even if it did it, still might be town.

Do we have any evidence that scum!Galz is lurky? Because I can't see that 5 game posts gives him all that much chance to do anything.

Hey @Maxford, if you're taking MiX's advice and reading old stuff, can you keep a look out for this? I'm terrible at reading old games because I'm such a slow reader :-P

Most of Galz's five posts were about disagreeing with me over my D1 list, and then there's one ~70 posts later where he votes for Joth. That really feels a lot more like someone who doesn't have time to keep up than someone who's strategically lurking because he thinks it benefits the scumteam.

[MiX]

I'm giving up on reading joth today. I had a theory, he shot it dead while being towny, which shot the other theory. He seems bent on being town today, and I like it.

I'll try to reread on the weekend, but I have a lot of things on my plate right now and it's showing, so no promises.

[SpaceAnemone]

Request prod on Raptor.
Request prod on Galz.

Both have not posted in more than 24 hours, and both have made exactly 5 in-game posts. This is a reason for prodding, not necessarily for policy-lynching.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm giving up on reading joth today. I had a theory, he shot it dead while being towny, which shot the other theory. He seems bent on being town today, and I like it.

This just seems like the laziest thing. I posted an actual case on Joth, and nobody has said "here are the reasons I think this behaviour is more likely from town!joth than scum!joth". Nor has anybody made a real case for him being town other than "I trust him" or "he's being townie". Please, for those of us not on such a Joth wavelength, can someone explain why my case is wrong he's so obv!town?

[Maxford]

Ha! We are pretty much at opposite orientations right now...I trust Joth for the time being. As for the Galz vote, I said that I don't think he is doing the kind of work that he normally does. Could be reasons for that, but one of them is that he's scum.  Admittedly, it is not some kind of awesome case with pages of support, but that doesn't really exist for anyone right now and even if it did it, still might be town.

Do we have any evidence that scum!Galz is lurky? Because I can't see that 5 game posts gives him all that much chance to do anything.

Hey @Maxford, if you're taking MiX's advice and reading old stuff, can you keep a look out for this? I'm terrible at reading old games because I'm such a slow reader :-P

Most of Galz's five posts were about disagreeing with me over my D1 list, and then there's one ~70 posts later where he votes for Joth. That really feels a lot more like someone who doesn't have time to keep up than someone who's strategically lurking because he thinks it benefits the scumteam.

@Space, will do during next night phase. Although your automatic post counter would be super useful in this kind of situations I suppose.

[MiX]

I'm giving up on reading joth today. I had a theory, he shot it dead while being towny, which shot the other theory. He seems bent on being town today, and I like it.

This just seems like the laziest thing. I posted an actual case on Joth, and nobody has said "here are the reasons I think this behaviour is more likely from town!joth than scum!joth". Nor has anybody made a real case for him being town other than "I trust him" or "he's being townie". Please, for those of us not on such a Joth wavelength, can someone explain why my case is wrong he's so obv!town?

I can go through it, but it's big so I'd rather do it non-mobile. It's pretty lazy I guess, but joth's latest post is super towny, it has everything I would expect from town!joth.

I answered things backwards didn't I? Meh.

[WestCoastDidds]

Didds is always a coin flip read for me. I've rarely seen her be scum. But her town meta is pretty scum-friendly and easily imitated. So I never have confidence that she's town, which is often a bummer because she always seems to have this high confidence that I'm town. But the fact that she's townreading me so hard right now when I don't really deserve it... I don't like it.

MiX, on the other hand, is being inconsistent, is posting a lot without saying a ton, is throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks... I think this is town!MiX. It seems par for the course for him and it's the sort of behavior that consistently gets him almost mislynched on day 1.

I'm not ready to vote for WCD yet (maybe because her buddying is super-effective). I'll leave my vote on Galz for now, but will hopefully come out of a re-read with a real case. People should hopefully know that generally when I promise a re-read I do deliver.

I didn't say I was townreading you. I said that I am trusting you. That's different....it just means that I don't find you scummy.  The reason that you usually get my trust is that you are a wordsy person so I have an easy time following your line of thinking. Sometimes I don't agree, but at least I can understand how you  got there.  As opposed to say MiX or Eddie who leave me reeling or some of the mathsy people who are hard for me to follow. I chose to trust you today because when I made the comment about MiX not playing like Mix, you agreed with it in some way that I found insightful. (I don't remember what you said...I'm on my phone so looking is hard, and I am tired).

You shouldn't vote for me because I am town. 100%, no doubt about it, take it to the bank, not even a shade of gray, town. And I didn't even get to get started in my last game before I got offed, so please let me play!

The reason I disagree with your position on MiX is that he is playing way less erratically than usual.  Normally he makes all kinds of over-the-top, ballsy claim like "I'm an IC!" that various people disagree with and he defends. He normally votes for a far wider variety of people for way less reason, and castigates people and their choices to a much higher degree than he is doing now.  I think he is playing more mildly and close-to-the-vest than Town!MiX. So, I will go back to:

vote: MiX

[WestCoastDidds]

Also, I had cake for lunch and I recommend that everyone do the same.

[WestCoastDidds]

Day 1 Begins Now![/b][/size] It will end at 1:40pm (EST) on October 28th, 2019.

With 14 players alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Not voting (15): faust, WCD, MiX, Galzria, ADK, XXRaptorSlayer96, Joth, Joseph, RaeRae, Shraeye, LaLight, Maxford, SpaceAnemone, Eevee

Day 1 ends on October 28th at 1:40pm EST.

[WestCoastDidds]

So, Monday

[Swowl]

Request prod on Raptor.
Request prod on Galz.

Prods have been sent to both players.

[MiX]

Didds, you're right, but it's not as alignment-indicative as you want: I'm just feeling less like that. Kinda toned down due to IRL stuff. Should improve in November.

OTOH you're either town or pushing a good case, which is towny for you.

[Swowl]

                 Vote count 1.5   

jotheonah (3): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight
MiX (2): WestCoastDidds, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (2): Eevee, Xxraptorslayer96
Galzria (2): MiX, Joth
Shraeye (1): A Drowned Kernel
Eevee (1): raerae
A Drowned Kernel (1): Shraeye
SpaceAnemone (1): Maxford
Xxraptorslayer96 (1): faust


With 14 players alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
Day 1 ends on Monday, October 28th at 1:40pm EST. That is in 3 days.

*Prods have been sent to Raptor and Galz.

[WestCoastDidds]

I'm just feeling less like that. Kinda toned down due to IRL stuff. Should improve in November.

I hope all is well in your part of the world.

[WestCoastDidds]

*Prods have been sent to Raptor and Galz.

Are you prodding them with a whack on the back of the head? Because that would be awesome.

[MiX]

*Prods have been sent to Raptor and Galz.

Are you prodding them with a whack on the back of the head? Because that would be awesome.

Maybe Swan's the reason they're not here...

Oh my god 1 second outside mobile and I can feel my motivation and energy flowing right back. I'm hyped, let's solve D1.

[raerae]

Didds, you're right, but it's not as alignment-indicative as you want: I'm just feeling less like that. Kinda toned down due to IRL stuff. Should improve in November.

OTOH you're either town or pushing a good case, which is towny for you.

So even though meta is your bread, butter, and bible, we're just supposed to ignore yours?  Also, her case against you is a good case?  Help me understand.

[MiX]

I think he's been making a number of posts, but that the density of quality information is still pretty low. He had an exchange where he wanted to be sold on the ADK wagon (no case made; inviting others to make cases), then made the ADK summary post that drew criticism for being literally a bunch of quotes with no analysis. Then suggests that people might want to make cases on Joseph at #155. Normally it's quite advantageous to scum if they can make a wagon look like it's been generated by townies, so asking for too much case-making from other people doesn't look great to me.

He engages a bit with Maxford, but that kind of tutoring is alignment-null. And then there was my point about him jumping too quickly to the "Maxford is town" conclusion, and then twisting my posts a bit for an omgusy vote when I called him on it. Add to that ADK's observation about Joth sounding a bit too conscious of the votes on him, and it's a bit of a bare-bones case.

Huh.. I meant that to be a re-read focusing on the lazy-vs-lurky distinction, but I think I'm just going to vote on the back of it now!

Vote: Joth

Agreed on the first paragraph, I was scumreading him for that.

Agreed on the second paragraph even more.

You're ignoring his latest post, where he does what he usually does D3 but he did it D1, I've been taking that as a townslip, but maybe it's just been working because he's town? I'll see posts that don't follow your two arguments for why joth is towny.

Actually there's just one:

This situation is such a mess. I voted Galz for the flimsiest justification that I like Maxford and I want to sheep his read. And then MiX and Didds vote Galz because I'm voting Galz, even though MiX was scumreading me fairly recently. Is it just me, or do Didds and MiX look bad here?

Everyone's being lazy (except Maxford I guess). The only person I'm hard townreading right now is raerae, tbh. She is playing her town meta to a T.

The non-lazy thing would be to actually, like, do some re-reading and look for a solid case. That's probably the sort of thing people who think I usually work harder than this are waiting for me to do. And honestly it probably is the next thing I'm going to do. Just not sure when I'll have time. When is deadline?

I know this will probably strike some people as scummy, but I don't think the people scumreading me are scummy for it. I think if I were not me and were watching my play today I'd be scumreading me too. All the points are valid. They just happen to be wrong.

Didds is always a coin flip read for me. I've rarely seen her be scum. But her town meta is pretty scum-friendly and easily imitated. So I never have confidence that she's town, which is often a bummer because she always seems to have this high confidence that I'm town. But the fact that she's townreading me so hard right now when I don't really deserve it... I don't like it.

MiX, on the other hand, is being inconsistent, is posting a lot without saying a ton, is throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks... I think this is town!MiX. It seems par for the course for him and it's the sort of behavior that consistently gets him almost mislynched on day 1.

I'm not ready to vote for WCD yet (maybe because her buddying is super-effective). I'll leave my vote on Galz for now, but will hopefully come out of a re-read with a real case. People should hopefully know that generally when I promise a re-read I do deliver.

First part, "scumreading" players for following his wagon. He can be partners with Galzria, but this is a really good way to destroy a wagon you're in, which doesn't help scum!joth if he was looking for a Galz mislynch.

Second part, a random townread on raerae. I can't read raerae, but...actually I'm assuming others don't find this too off, because I haven't heard anyone question this. Joth, why is raerae town?

Third part, very casually asks for deadline, and it's in the middle so it's pretty train-of-thought-y. Definitely want to see this reread, but still, he wants to be townread here, not just to lose his wagon, is my read here. I think scum!joth would just want the pressure off him.

Fourth part is null.

The Didds and MiX read seem to be a continuation of his "reread", but just on the players he was scumreading above. I don't like the flip-flop on Didds nor the townread on me, actually. I don't think I had delved into this post as much as I'm doing right now.

Then he ends up scumreading Didds? Okay, that's somewhat consistent with his read above.


There's a question inside all of this: joth, why is raerae town?

Didds, you're right, but it's not as alignment-indicative as you want: I'm just feeling less like that. Kinda toned down due to IRL stuff. Should improve in November.

OTOH you're either town or pushing a good case, which is towny for you.

So even though meta is your bread, butter, and bible, we're just supposed to ignore yours?  Also, her case against you is a good case?  Help me understand.

This is just...I'm so tired of answering your questioning raerae. But it probably helps me read you, so here I go...

My meta requires me to be very hyped, very pumped and most of all very energetic. I can't do that at the moment. Feel free to scumread me, but I suggest reading my scum game before passing judgement, because there I was more akin to my townself than now. At least that's my memory of things...

[MiX]

That should've ended with Vote: joth because he's less towny than I thought, but it's not enough for me to vote.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm having a hard time getting into this game, I feel like a small group of people is doing all of the talking and they're going around in circles.

How about this: can someone convince me that shraeye is a bad vote?

[jotheonah]

raerae is town because...

Well she's doing all the town things she does. It feels like she has a genuine desire to figure this game out and find scum. A lot of questions, a lot of sass, a lot of energy. She's not pushing any lynch or tunneling anyone, she doesn't have any interactions that feel like fake partner interactions.

It's always harder for me to explain a townread than a scumread. But raerae... I mean it's been a while since we played together, but she has a distinctive style, and this is it, and like, maybe she can fake it as scum? But idk. My gut says she's town.

[WestCoastDidds]

I don’t think have a raerae opinion yet, but from playing on Jimmmms site I know absolutely that she can fake town as scum. She’s so good

[jotheonah]

Joseph wagon is bad. What's it a counterwagon to? Joth?

My read of the day is that this is exactly the opposite of what happened. I think I was a counterwagon to Joseph. The Joseph wagon dies out around the time mine starts.

[shraeye]

I agree with raerae 100% here. It's bad policy. And also it balances out, right? Good town players tend to be good scum players. So if someone gives us a +100 advantage by being around in the late game as town, they also give us a -100 advantage by being around in the late game as scum.

But Joseph isn't good scum, he's just someone that is much easier to read as the game progresses. And is almost always scummy D1. Maybe I'm biased since I've been in Speccy during the games I would quote as examples, but still.

Lynching faust D1 is just a mistake. That reminds me I need to actually read his scum game, I don't think I ever got around to it last time I said this.

Isn't everyone much easier to read as the game progresses?

[jotheonah]

Re-read thoughts:

Eevee and Joseph are reading scummiest to me. They are both doing the scummy participating-but-not-contributing thing combined with some opportunistic wagon-jumping.

Galz is towny to me. He has been low-activity but not lurking, and when he's here he's actually scumhunting and contributing.
I would put shraeye in the same bucket, although his contributions have struck me as less substantive than Galz's.
And of course, my aforementioned strong townread on raerae is still a thing.

Raptor has been very lurky. Ditto LaLight. They both pop out of lurking just to vote, which I don't love.

I still like Maxford.

I can't read Space. Generally what happens with Space and I is we disagree on almost everything, but that's not indicative of their alignment.
I can't read faust. Generally what happens with me and faust is we have  some witty banter but that's not indicative of his alignment.
I already discussed why I can't read Didds. And MiX is just a whole different can of nuts.

All that said, I'm leaning town on MiX and Didds (I know, I know, I'm wavering back and forth a lot), and leaning scum on Space and faust.

ADK is also in this game. A lot of people think he's scummy. I don't see it, but I could sheep there. He's not setting off town bells either.

So between Eevee and Joseph, I honestly can't decide. I'll vote: Eevee for now.

Here's my list of most want to lynch to least want to lynch:

Eevee
Joseph
LaLight
Raptor
Space
faust
Didds
MiX
ADK
Shraeye
Galz
Maxford
raerae
Joth

[shraeye]

As for town utility, no I completely disagree that it's symmetric, and that's a really key part of my heuristic. Faust, or anyone else known for logical inference (MiX is strong on this, and I expect Maxford will be) can't really twist things too far without it being possible for one of the rest of us in the maths corner to feel like something is up, so he has to keep posting town-useful content even as scum.

I don't know why you're assuming math can't be used for evil.  It most 120% definitely can.

[jotheonah]

Actually, I want to amend my list:

Eevee
Joseph
LaLight
Raptor
Space
faust
ADK
Didds
MiX
Shraeye
Galz
Maxford
raerae
Joth

[shraeye]

I'm having a hard time getting into this game, I feel like a small group of people is doing all of the talking and they're going around in circles.

How about this: can someone convince me that shraeye is a bad vote?

That seems unlikely from here.  Why are you asking people to convince you?

[shraeye]

My bet is on Didds or joth.

vote: joth

[faust]

This week has been intense so I have not been quite at the activity level that I would like. I need to spend some time focusing on the game, that will probably happen tomorrow.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

I'm here.

*Prods have been sent to Raptor and Galz.

Are you prodding them with a whack on the back of the head? Because that would be awesome.

No, he threw a peanut at me and told me I've been proded.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

I think I can get behind a Joth vote

@everyone, does Joth have a meta? I'm just trying to figure out his play style.

@joth would you consider yourself a veteran player? Estimate on how many games you have played?

[LaLight]

I think I can get behind a Joth vote

@everyone, does Joth have a meta? I'm just trying to figure out his play style.

@joth would you consider yourself a veteran player? Estimate on how many games you have played?

Joth is an ancient player, way before my time, so I'd say 4 to 5 years? There was a hiatus though. I don't know his meta well, because right after he returned I disappeared.

[LaLight]

My bet is on Didds or joth.

vote: joth

100% agree here

[jotheonah]

I think I can get behind a Joth vote

@everyone, does Joth have a meta? I'm just trying to figure out his play style.

@joth would you consider yourself a veteran player? Estimate on how many games you have played?

If I didn’t play in Mafia #1, I definitely played in Mafia #2. How many altogether? Counting blitz and drunk and Jim’s site? Maybe 50? Idk, modded a handful as well.

[jotheonah]

I came back earlier this year after being gone for 4 years tho

[jotheonah]

Request vote count? What am I at L-wise?

[jotheonah]

Ok, L-4, 3 if raptor votes. That’s fine. Nobody hammer me tho, k?

[SpaceAnemone]

ADK is also in this game. A lot of people think he's scummy. I don't see it, but I could sheep there. He's not setting off town bells either.

*pronoun prod* :-)

[MiX]

I think I can get behind a Joth vote

@everyone, does Joth have a meta? I'm just trying to figure out his play style.

@joth would you consider yourself a veteran player? Estimate on how many games you have played?

He has a meta, and I think his sig still describes it well, although I always assume he does more D1 stuff than what he normally does.

My bet is on Didds or joth.

vote: joth

100% agree here

I 100% agree that it's joth, Didds or neither. Yes, that's my read right now.

This week has been intense so I have not been quite at the activity level that I would like. I need to spend some time focusing on the game, that will probably happen tomorrow.

Have any current thoughts?

[A Drowned Kernel]

raerae is town because...

Well she's doing all the town things she does. It feels like she has a genuine desire to figure this game out and find scum. A lot of questions, a lot of sass, a lot of energy. She's not pushing any lynch or tunneling anyone, she doesn't have any interactions that feel like fake partner interactions.

It's always harder for me to explain a townread than a scumread. But raerae... I mean it's been a while since we played together, but she has a distinctive style, and this is it, and like, maybe she can fake it as scum? But idk. My gut says she's town.

Was this in response to me? I was asking about shraeye

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm having a hard time getting into this game, I feel like a small group of people is doing all of the talking and they're going around in circles.

How about this: can someone convince me that shraeye is a bad vote?

That seems unlikely from here.  Why are you asking people to convince you?

Multiple people unvoted me after I explained my vote but no one seems to be commenting on you at all. It's odd

[SpaceAnemone]

Hmm.. ADK's right that there hasn't been a lot of Shraeye discussion. I think part of my lack of consideration was due to knowing that I can't necessarily read him well, and knowing that raerae ought to know him inside out and is active, so there should be an interesting dynamic there that the rest of us can watch.

However... let's do a Shraeye iso read anyway!

The most notable thing he did was to come in claiming his card. That made ADK vote for him. Other early posts from Shraeye were joke-related, or a couple of Maxford-related things, which does seem a little bit like he could be hiding behind newbie engagement. There's also the thing where he talked about the potential utility of a no-lynch, which is very typical for him, but could also be read as playing too hard on his meta, if he wants to be seen to be active but not to have to scum-hunt too much.

About mid-way through, he moved to voting for ADK, even though he'd slightly teasted Raerae for pushing ADK earlier, though that didn't come out till a clarifying post later (#238 talking about what he'd really meant at #152). Then other than a brief hiatus voting Joseph, he really seems to double down on ADK, even responding to my direct question on how he felt after ADK's justification of their flavour-claim-based vote on Shraeye to say that he still thought there was something off about them.

One thing that raises a bit of a red flag is that he seems to be willfully misrepresenting/pretending to misunderstand things MiX and I have said regarding the faus D1-pass suggestion and then the asymmetric utility of keeping strong logical players alive. I mean, sure, maths can be used to help scum, but that wasn't the point I was making at all.. his posts at #397 and #399 act like he's engaging while failing to touch the actual substance of either post he quotes.

On the plus side, he did just move (with very little explanation/justification) to voting for Joth at #402, and that's very much in line with my current thinking, so for now I'm disinclined to jump from Joth to Shraeye. But I do feel like it's worth recording the red flag stuff above, hence my long and rambly post.

[jotheonah]

ADK is also in this game. A lot of people think he's scummy. I don't see it, but I could sheep there. He's not setting off town bells either.

*pronoun prod* :-)

thx

[Galzria]

Apologies - prod acknowledged. I’m at work all day today but I’ll be able to fully commit tomorrow.

[Swowl]

                 Vote count 1.5   

jotheonah (4): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Shraeye
MiX (2): WestCoastDidds, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (2): Eevee, Xxraptorslayer96
Eevee (2): raerae, Joth
Galzria (1): MiX
Shraeye (1): A Drowned Kernel
SpaceAnemone (1): Maxford
Xxraptorslayer96 (1): faust


With 14 players alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
Day 1 ends on Monday, October 28th at 1:40pm EST. That is in just under 48 hours.

[jotheonah]

I should be voting Eevee.

[faust]

Okay, some reevaluation yields that Joseph and ADK are town, and to a lesser extent Space and Eevee.

Whereas the scummier people are shraeye and MiX.

Vote: shraeye

Not that I'd mind going back to Ratpor.

[faust]

woah with the letter switches. Sorry raptor. No rodent associations intended.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Alright, so I don't have a great reads list. I can still get behind a Joth lynch. I also really enjoyed Space's read/analysis of Shraeye, and I wouldn't voting there get a lynch. I would not be huge on voting Mix or Space as of rn. I'm pretty null on the rest.

I apologize that my posts are lacking content, D1 scum hunting is one of the many thing that I need to still work on.

I also will also try and squeeze in a few more posts tomorrow evening, but that maybe it until an hour or two before day end. I will be around at day end though.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

woah with the letter switches. Sorry raptor. No rodent associations intended.

No worries

[Swowl]

I should be voting Eevee.

Thank you. Corrected.

[WestCoastDidds]

Okay, some reevaluation yields that Joseph and ADK are town, and to a lesser extent Space and Eevee.

Whereas the scummier people are shraeye and MiX.

Vote: shraeye

Not that I'd mind going back to Ratpor.

Why Shraeye over MiX?

[MiX]

jotheonah (4): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Shraeye
MiX (2): WestCoastDidds, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (2): Eevee, Xxraptorslayer96
Eevee (2): raerae, Joth

These wagons are: null, town, towny, towny. Ew.

Just going for my one true scumread:

Vote: LaLight

[faust]

Why Shraeye over MiX?

I think he's the scummier of the two.

[faust]

jotheonah (4): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Shraeye
MiX (2): WestCoastDidds, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (2): Eevee, Xxraptorslayer96
Eevee (2): raerae, Joth

These wagons are: null, town, towny, towny. Ew.

Just going for my one true scumread:

Vote: LaLight

shraeye is also at 2 votes.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I should be voting Eevee.

Should you, though?

[jotheonah]

Vote: Joseph is also fine and better I guess.

[Maxford]

jotheonah (4): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Shraeye
MiX (2): WestCoastDidds, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (2): Eevee, Xxraptorslayer96
Eevee (2): raerae, Joth

These wagons are: null, town, towny, towny. Ew.

Just going for my one true scumread:

Vote: LaLight

What's your case against Lalight?

Also, I don't get why people are townreading Eevee...

[SpaceAnemone]

Hmm.. ironically, I'm now proddable because it's more than 24 hours since my previous post. I just didn't want to post anything earlier because so little new stuff had been said since my Shraeye re-read.

I know weekends are generally quiet, so I guess asking for more prods would be a bit mean. We are getting very close to deadline time, though, and some players still have single-digit numbers for their in-game post counts.

Also worth noting: UK (and presumably other EU?) clocks change in a few minutes, meaning the offset to forum time is going to be one hour less than at most times of the year.

[SpaceAnemone]

Here's a quick Space Count before I go to sleep:

Shraeye (2): A Drowned Kernel, faust
Eevee (1): raerae
Joseph2302 (3): Eevee, Xxraptorslayer96, jotheonah
jotheonah (4): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Shraeye
SpaceAnemone (1): Maxford
MiX (2): Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds
LaLight (1): MiX

[raerae]

Okay, some reevaluation yields that Joseph and ADK are town, and to a lesser extent Space and Eevee.

Whereas the scummier people are shraeye and MiX.

Vote: shraeye

Not that I'd mind going back to Ratpor.

Why Shraeye over MiX?

Can you tell me why this time is different than every other time?  I am amazingly good at lynching town!MiX D1 so, while I'd LOVE to join you, my track record is less great than it could be and I've got some real frigid tootsies.

[SpaceAnemone]

Also, I don't get why people are townreading Eevee...

Do you think there's enough against Eevee to make a case against him? I remember him being a lovely player to have around, which was why I put him down as a D1 pass... but if you're voting for me at the moment but considering a switch to Eevee, I'd encourage you to go for it :-)

[raerae]

Why Shraeye over MiX?

I think he's the scummier of the two.

Just because he's been ghost quiet or is there more to it?

[shraeye]

Also, I don't get why people are townreading Eevee...

Do you think there's enough against Eevee to make a case against him? I remember him being a lovely player to have around, which was why I put him down as a D1 pass... but if you're voting for me at the moment but considering a switch to Eevee, I'd encourage you to go for it :-)

You think people are townreading Eevee?

[WestCoastDidds]

Okay, some reevaluation yields that Joseph and ADK are town, and to a lesser extent Space and Eevee.

Whereas the scummier people are shraeye and MiX.

Vote: shraeye

Not that I'd mind going back to Ratpor.

Why Shraeye over MiX?

Can you tell me why this time is different than every other time?  I am amazingly good at lynching town!MiX D1 so, while I'd LOVE to join you, my track record is less great than it could be and I've got some real frigid tootsies.

I feel you....but to me, the reason we scumread MiX when he is town is because he is all over the place. He votes all over the place and is aggressive and adversarial, and he asks LOTS of direct questions. I’m not seeing him doing that here, really at all. He seems to be playing much more conservatively and he hasn’t made any out-there claims. Which also reads as carefully. Like maybe he would do if he was scum? This is by no means rock solid, but I don’t have a lot of sense of anyone, really. MiX says that he’s been blah and that’s the reason he’s low key. So, there’s that.

I was hoping faust would have more to say because I agreed with his other assessments about who he thought was towny, and I don’t find Shraeye towny at all. Everyone else seems to be giving MiX a pass but that is weird, too, I think.

So, I don’t have a case that I think is necessarily persuasive to other people, but I’m not persuaded by anyone else yet, either, and I am especially not feeling ADK or Joth.

[MiX]

jotheonah (4): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Shraeye
MiX (2): WestCoastDidds, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (2): Eevee, Xxraptorslayer96
Eevee (2): raerae, Joth

These wagons are: null, town, towny, towny. Ew.

Just going for my one true scumread:

Vote: LaLight

shraeye is also at 2 votes.

You're right. That's a better wagon.

Vote: shraeye

What's your case against Lalight?

Also, I don't get why people are townreading Eevee...

Lurking, putting votes in almost every post, sounds like scum!LaLight. That's what I think I remember of their scummeta, at least.

Vote: Joseph is also fine and better I guess.

Is it? I mean, it's better, but...bleh.

I feel you....but to me, the reason we scumread MiX when he is town is because he is all over the place. He votes all over the place and is aggressive and adversarial, and he asks LOTS of direct questions. I’m not seeing him doing that here, really at all. He seems to be playing much more conservatively and he hasn’t made any out-there claims. Which also reads as carefully. Like maybe he would do if he was scum? This is by no means rock solid, but I don’t have a lot of sense of anyone, really. MiX says that he’s been blah and that’s the reason he’s low key. So, there’s that.

Didds is hammering this point in everyone's skulls, while I like the case I really don't like this. It gives scum a free reason to vote me.

[MiX]

shraeye isn't trying to screw with everyone this game, and that's already far from his scummeta enough for me to not go there today.

Vote: joth while I do some rereads. Don't hammer!

[LaLight]

I am not lurking, this is just my availability nowadays and for the last several games. I can not be so active, that's why I haven't been participating in games for last months and then I realised I really miss Mafia games and being the part of them so I /inned. But my life and the amount of free time changed drastically and this in nai.

[shraeye]

I am not lurking, this is just my availability nowadays and for the last several games. I can not be so active, that's why I haven't been participating in games for last months and then I realised I really miss Mafia games and being the part of them so I /inned. But my life and the amount of free time changed drastically and this in nai.

I buy this.  Also it's frustrating when people don't believe this stuff.

[SpaceAnemone]

Also, I don't get why people are townreading Eevee...

Do you think there's enough against Eevee to make a case against him? I remember him being a lovely player to have around, which was why I put him down as a D1 pass... but if you're voting for me at the moment but considering a switch to Eevee, I'd encourage you to go for it :-)

You think people are townreading Eevee?

Faust stated as much, so I'll go with yes :-) I'm mostly null on him personally.

I was mostly just trying to encourage Maxford into making case-style posts, though. And also to point out that I think his vote could go somewhere more useful :-)

[faust]

Why Shraeye over MiX?

I think he's the scummier of the two.

Just because he's been ghost quiet or is there more to it?

He has happily pushed along basically any wagon that formed, and these wagons weren't very good.

[WestCoastDidds]

Didds is hammering this point in everyone's skulls, while I like the case I really don't like this. It gives scum a free reason to vote me.

In fairness, people keep asking me the same question. And that is still my answer. And I’ve said this isn’t the best case and that you have a response. I’m trying to recruit people against you or build the wagon....I’m just trying to vote with some level of reason instead of totally randomly.

That said, we’re like a day from deadline, so I’ll need to find a more productive place to vote.

[shraeye]

good point.  I should have just done nothing and let this game stagnate quicker than a drainage ditch in Florida.

I expect better from you faust.

[faust]

good point.  I should have just done nothing and let this game stagnate quicker than a drainage ditch in Florida.

I expect better from you faust.

I forgot that the only possible options are jumping on every wagon or doing nothing, sorry.

[WestCoastDidds]

Didds is hammering this point in everyone's skulls, while I like the case I really don't like this. It gives scum a free reason to vote me.

In fairness, people keep asking me the same question. And that is still my answer. And I’ve said this isn’t the best case and that you have a response. I’m not trying to recruit people against you or build the wagon....I’m just trying to vote with some level of reason instead of totally randomly.

That said, we’re like a day from deadline, so I’ll need to find a more productive place to vote.

EBWOP

[faust]

Didds is hammering this point in everyone's skulls, while I like the case I really don't like this. It gives scum a free reason to vote me.

In fairness, people keep asking me the same question. And that is still my answer. And I’ve said this isn’t the best case and that you have a response. I’m not trying to recruit people against you or build the wagon....I’m just trying to vote with some level of reason instead of totally randomly.

That said, we’re like a day from deadline, so I’ll need to find a more productive place to vote.

EBWOP

If you think MiX is scum, wouldn't it be a good thing to recruit people to the wagon?

[faust]

Also, don*t leave the wagon, I need a backup plan for if the shraeye thing fails.

[MiX]

Also, don*t leave the wagon, I need a backup plan for if the shraeye thing fails.

Ew. You know I'm a bad lynch, this is silly.

I haven't reread enough to unvote joth, but I don't really want to be there either...

[faust]

Also, don*t leave the wagon, I need a backup plan for if the shraeye thing fails.

Ew. You know I'm a bad lynch, this is silly.

I haven't reread enough to unvote joth, but I don't really want to be there either...

We could of course always lynch Raptor. But oh no, the poor lurkers!

[raerae]

Didds is hammering this point in everyone's skulls, while I like the case I really don't like this. It gives scum a free reason to vote me.

This is silly. I don't see Didds pushing this more than anybody else who wants their case heard. Also, this is the second time you've said you like her case on you. Why do you keep saying that? Town generally doesn't agree cases on them have merit...

[shraeye]

Mix does,

Vote: Faust

[Joseph2302]

Vote: shraeye is something I can get on board with

PPE: 1

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Mix, why is Joth a better vote then LaLight, or Shraeye?

[MiX]

Mix, why is Joth a better vote then LaLight, or Shraeye?

Bigger wagon, gets some pressure while I was rereading, LL wagon not going anywhere today, shraeye is a very interesting lynch that I need to actually think about.

Still like your Joseph vote?

[Maxford]

Also, I don't get why people are townreading Eevee...

Do you think there's enough against Eevee to make a case against him? I remember him being a lovely player to have around, which was why I put him down as a D1 pass... but if you're voting for me at the moment but considering a switch to Eevee, I'd encourage you to go for it :-)

No, but I feel like there's not enough against anyone to make a case against anyone (or maybe against joth?). I guess what drove my comment was some kind of 'density of information' argument, but this argument could be applied to other players as well, probably me included.

[MiX]

Also, I don't get why people are townreading Eevee...

Do you think there's enough against Eevee to make a case against him? I remember him being a lovely player to have around, which was why I put him down as a D1 pass... but if you're voting for me at the moment but considering a switch to Eevee, I'd encourage you to go for it :-)

No, but I feel like there's not enough against anyone to make a case against anyone (or maybe against joth?). I guess what drove my comment was some kind of 'density of information' argument, but this argument could be applied to other players as well, probably me included.

Why are you voting Space then?

[Maxford]

Also, I don't get why people are townreading Eevee...

Do you think there's enough against Eevee to make a case against him? I remember him being a lovely player to have around, which was why I put him down as a D1 pass... but if you're voting for me at the moment but considering a switch to Eevee, I'd encourage you to go for it :-)

No, but I feel like there's not enough against anyone to make a case against anyone (or maybe against joth?). I guess what drove my comment was some kind of 'density of information' argument, but this argument could be applied to other players as well, probably me included.

Why are you voting Space then?

I feel like I had a good enough reason to vote against Space at the time, but don't anymore. But also don't have a good reason for anyone else. Oh well,

unvote

[Joseph2302]

Request: Vote count

[Joseph2302]

I think we have 19 hours left and no large wagons

[WestCoastDidds]

If you think MiX is scum, wouldn't it be a good thing to recruit people to the wagon?

If I felt it more strongly, I would. This is a humongous nully kind of day. The top of my list is MiX, Shraeye, and Joseph with a side of lurker sauce (raptor and Galzy) but no one is so firmly scum in my mind that I am going to dig in and wave the flag of righteousness, but I think I would be willing to vote for any of those folks.

[shraeye]

Let's make Faust happen, it's a thing now

[raerae]

Let's make Faust happen, it's a thing now

Cool, why?

[shraeye]

Honestly, why not?

Townfaust should be stirring it up more, instead of voting me for trying to stir up some life in this thing.

[WestCoastDidds]

Hhmm...tell me more

[faust]

Honestly, why not?

Townfaust should be stirring it up more, instead of voting me for trying to stir up some life in this thing.

Am I not stirring it up by voting for you? More than someone who just agrees with every uttered scumread anyway?

[raerae]

Honestly, why not?

Townfaust should be stirring it up more, instead of voting me for trying to stir up some life in this thing.

Could say the same about you. Town!shraeye should be feistier. What's your take on Didds vs. MiX? Better question, what's your take on MiX, specifically him townreading virtually every wagon that comes up?

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Mix, why is Joth a better vote then LaLight, or Shraeye?

Bigger wagon, gets some pressure while I was rereading, LL wagon not going anywhere today, shraeye is a very interesting lynch that I need to actually think about.

Still like your Joseph vote?

Like it? Kinda, but I know it’s not going anywhere. Unvote

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Where is Galz?

[A Drowned Kernel]

If people want another reason to vote for shraeye: look at how little traction this wagon has gotten, despite the fact that I've been pushing it all day and no one is making any sort of case for shraeye's towniness. If shraeye is town where is scum in all this?

[Galzria]

Where is Galz?

At the same meeting you’re at. Right now.

Honestly, having reread the day, I’m still solid on my Joth vote. He’s been helpful and engaged in a way that hasn’t felt like he’s looking to find scum, but is trying to produce content. And yeah, it’s gut more than anything, but I haven’t seen anything else that sells me on a better D1 case.

[shraeye]

Honestly, why not?

Townfaust should be stirring it up more, instead of voting me for trying to stir up some life in this thing.

Am I not stirring it up by voting for you? More than someone who just agrees with every uttered scumread anyway?

Sounds like you're accusing me of agreeing with every scumread anyone's expressed  That sort of exaggeration isn't remotely helpful

[shraeye]

Honestly, why not?

Townfaust should be stirring it up more, instead of voting me for trying to stir up some life in this thing.

Could say the same about you. Town!shraeye should be feistier. What's your take on Didds vs. MiX? Better question, what's your take on MiX, specifically him townreading virtually every wagon that comes up?

Mix vs didds: meh, possible scummark for didds
Mix: town
Townreading wagons: whatev

[Joseph2302]

If people want another reason to vote for shraeye: look at how little traction this wagon has gotten, despite the fact that I've been pushing it all day and no one is making any sort of case for shraeye's towniness. If shraeye is town where is scum in all this?

I agree. I like my vote being on shraeye

[MiX]

Mix count:

jotheonah (4): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, MiX
Shraeye (3): A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (2): Eevee, jotheonah
Eevee (1): raerae
MiX (1): WestCoastDidds
faust (1): shraeye
Not voting (2): Maxford, Xxraptorslayer96

Not my favourite wagons but LL became unlynchable so I guess we're stuck here. We have around 10 hours before deadline? I'll try to do some serious rereads.

[Galzria]

Shraeye, why you bail on Joth right when he became a serious (5) wagon heading into deadline?

Partner protecting, or trying to look townie if he ends up getting lynched and flips town?

[Galzria]

Willing to consider Shraeye over Joth as deadline approaches if need be. Staying on Joth for now.

[MiX]

Shraeye, why you bail on Joth right when he became a serious (5) wagon heading into deadline?

Partner protecting, or trying to look townie if he ends up getting lynched and flips town?

If it's "partner protecting" then he's really bad at it, they're both the top wagon.

[Galzria]

Shraeye, why you bail on Joth right when he became a serious (5) wagon heading into deadline?

Partner protecting, or trying to look townie if he ends up getting lynched and flips town?

If it's "partner protecting" then he's really bad at it, they're both the top wagon.

He can’t control his own wagon. The jump from Joth right as Joth gained real momentum just looks scummy.

[MiX]

Shraeye, why you bail on Joth right when he became a serious (5) wagon heading into deadline?

Partner protecting, or trying to look townie if he ends up getting lynched and flips town?

If it's "partner protecting" then he's really bad at it, they're both the top wagon.

He can’t control his own wagon. The jump from Joth right as Joth gained real momentum just looks scummy.

Right, but it's not like the joth wagon slowed down. All that happened was shraeye moved away. And it really doesn't look like the wagon's slowing down...

It's something to look at if joth flips scum but otherwise it's not damning.

[MiX]

We need joth here. But I think the objectively better thing to do here is

Vote: shraeye

And hope everything works out? I was reading joth, going to read shraeye next.

[SpaceAnemone]

If people want another reason to vote for shraeye: look at how little traction this wagon has gotten, despite the fact that I've been pushing it all day and no one is making any sort of case for shraeye's towniness. If shraeye is town where is scum in all this?

This is how I feel about the Joth wagon, except with Joth we've got WCD hard-defending him with little justification.

The one thing Shraeye had going for him when I did my re-read was that he'd started voting Joth. That seems not to be the case any more, now that he's made a really unproductive vote on faust. Like Galz, I'd prefer to see Joth be the lynch, because I think there's a genuine super-minor scumslip in his handling of Maxford's towniness early on, plus all the being-active-while-not-scum-hunting stuff.

[SpaceAnemone]

Deadline is "1:40pm EST", and I know I'm always asking and forgetting, but I'm assuming that EST is the same as forum time. That's 17.40 for those of us in the UK at the moment (and possibly also for MiX?), which is about an hour before the end of my typical work day, but I'll try to be here.

@Maxford, sometimes deadlines get a little fraught, and it's helpful to be able to be around where possible, because we generally want to lynch where possible, and you may need to put your vote somewhere to avoid a no-lynch. Even if we end up lynching town (which is usually the case), it's informative later in the game to be able to look back at who was pushing whom and where the votes were going once we have the knowledge of who was town at the time.

It's very nice of Swan to pick a deadline time that's not in the middle of the night for Europe :-)

[MiX]

Deadline is "1:40pm EST", and I know I'm always asking and forgetting, but I'm assuming that EST is the same as forum time. That's 17.40 for those of us in the UK at the moment (and possibly also for MiX?), which is about an hour before the end of my typical work day, but I'll try to be here.

Isn't it 19:40? If it's 17:40 then I'm here for deadline, otherwise no.

[SpaceAnemone]

Deadline is "1:40pm EST", and I know I'm always asking and forgetting, but I'm assuming that EST is the same as forum time. That's 17.40 for those of us in the UK at the moment (and possibly also for MiX?), which is about an hour before the end of my typical work day, but I'll try to be here.

Isn't it 19:40? If it's 17:40 then I'm here for deadline, otherwise no.

Definitely 17.40. I've even done the googling to be sure that current EST matches the forum clock, and that Portugal is still in line with the UK time after our clocks changed yesterday.

[Joseph2302]

Assuming EST means forum time, it's 17:40 UK time

[Joseph2302]

Deadline is "1:40pm EST", and I know I'm always asking and forgetting, but I'm assuming that EST is the same as forum time. That's 17.40 for those of us in the UK at the moment (and possibly also for MiX?), which is about an hour before the end of my typical work day, but I'll try to be here.

@Maxford, sometimes deadlines get a little fraught, and it's helpful to be able to be around where possible, because we generally want to lynch where possible, and you may need to put your vote somewhere to avoid a no-lynch. Even if we end up lynching town (which is usually the case), it's informative later in the game to be able to look back at who was pushing whom and where the votes were going once we have the knowledge of who was town at the time.

It's very nice of Swan to pick a deadline time that's not in the middle of the night for Europe :-)

I'm not totally convinced on joth, I'd prefer shraeye. Feels like they're just trying to get faust mislynch on very little actual basis. And faust is being pro town at the moment
But if it comes to it, I guess I could vote joth

[Eevee]

I’m back and will be here for the deadline. I’ll give some thoughts soon once I’ve waken up properly!

[WestCoastDidds]

Good morning!

Eastern time is forum time. It’s actually EDT right now since we haven’t moved back to Standard time yet (about 3 weeks away), but that’s an error tone of people make.

Vote: Shraeye

We have a job candidate here today so I won’t be around much until about 30 minutes before deadline, but I’ll be here then.

[Joseph2302]

I'll be on and off around for the deadline then

[Eevee]

MiX is someone I'm developing an interest in lynching, although it's my first game with him, so the things I'm picking on might be more usual for him than I'm attributing. Is the defense "it's a good case and you seem towny for making it, I'm town though" something he has done in the past as town?

[Eevee]

I'm leaning town on shraeye, but it would make one of the more informative lynches, as someone who doesn't mince their words, the interactions around him tend to be much clearer than say those of a known wishy-washer like myself.

I need to reread joth to form an opinion, currently not sold.
 Another bigger wagon is myself, not sold on that.

Joseph I feel is bit of mislynchbait, and due to playstyle (or day 1 aversion), not sure how much we'd learn from it. Always interesting when people have strong opinions based on flimsy things, though, so that'd be something.

[jotheonah]

@Eevee pretty sure yeah

Vote: shraeye

Thats L2

[Eevee]

Reread joth: Apart from the (very flimsy!) scumslip-argument, I'm not seeing much. He is one of our most active players not only based on post count, but I think there is also opinion and analysis in his posts, not just low calorie content.

That being said, one interesting thing I noticed that joth somehow seems self-conscious about his posts or downplaying his contributions. Not sure what the reason for that is, since he's been doing more than most of us, certainly.

[Maxford]

Deadline is "1:40pm EST", and I know I'm always asking and forgetting, but I'm assuming that EST is the same as forum time. That's 17.40 for those of us in the UK at the moment (and possibly also for MiX?), which is about an hour before the end of my typical work day, but I'll try to be here.

@Maxford, sometimes deadlines get a little fraught, and it's helpful to be able to be around where possible, because we generally want to lynch where possible, and you may need to put your vote somewhere to avoid a no-lynch. Even if we end up lynching town (which is usually the case), it's informative later in the game to be able to look back at who was pushing whom and where the votes were going once we have the knowledge of who was town at the time.

It's very nice of Swan to pick a deadline time that's not in the middle of the night for Europe :-)

I'll be around for the deadline.

I didn't realise the thing about the value of information before, in this case I will

Vote: Shraeye

I would prefer not to have to lynch anyone because we have so little information I feel like there's a high chance we might end up killing town, but I can see how a "value of information" argument can go against this. In this case, Shraeye looks more suspicious than joth to me. I'm not at all convinced by Space's slight scumslip argument against joth.

[Joseph2302]

This was L-1 by the way (meaning if anyone else votes for shraeye, then they'll be lynched)

[MiX]

Vote: joth, just in case.

[shraeye]

Shraeye, why you bail on Joth right when he became a serious (5) wagon heading into deadline?

Partner protecting, or trying to look townie if he ends up getting lynched and flips town?

Frustration/hunch on faust.  I'm back on joth if faust doesn't pan out (and it appears not to be doing that)

[shraeye]

MiX is someone I'm developing an interest in lynching, although it's my first game with him, so the things I'm picking on might be more usual for him than I'm attributing. Is the defense "it's a good case and you seem towny for making it, I'm town though" something he has done in the past as town?

100% yes

[Eevee]

Good to know, thanks guys.

Reread shraeye. He seems utterly unconcerned with seeming towny, starting off with the never to be revisited card claim in his first in-game post. The fact that near half our population wants to lynch him (for what!) makes me not. The wagon seems completely arbitrary and ~1/3 of you are scum, I think he’s less likely to be. I’m against shraeye lynch.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space Count

Shraeye (6): A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford
Eevee (1): raerae
Joseph2302 (1): Eevee
jotheonah (4): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, MiX
faust (1): Shraeye
Not Voting (1): Xxraptorslayer96

[Joseph2302]

MiX is someone I'm developing an interest in lynching, although it's my first game with him, so the things I'm picking on might be more usual for him than I'm attributing. Is the defense "it's a good case and you seem towny for making it, I'm town though" something he has done in the past as town?

100% yes

I'm leaning slightly scummy towards MiX, something feels off about the amount we was trying to defend me. Which feels like white knighting to me

PPE: 2-3

[Joseph2302]

Space Count

Shraeye (6): A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford
Eevee (1): raerae
Joseph2302 (1): Eevee
jotheonah (4): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, MiX
faust (1): Shraeye
Not Voting (1): Xxraptorslayer96

Oh, so Shraeye is L-2 then and not L-1?

[shraeye]

I'm totally fine going down today, if you all feel it will be informative.

I'll leave you with my hunches:
scum
raerae, interacted differently with me than I expected

ADK, suspicious holding onto a nothing thread.  Low-key pushing it / reminding people all day and then concluding with "funny how this wagon never got steam"

faust, his reasoning around me does not feel logical enough for him

lowkey scum read on Eevee; no particular reason given, but highly suggest a reread here

town
MiX; yup, pretty sure here.
joth, on second thought, I'm leaning town here.  Weaker than my Mix-read.


Null
Everyone else

[faust]

I'm leaning town on shraeye, but it would make one of the more informative lynches, as someone who doesn't mince their words, the interactions around him tend to be much clearer than say those of a known wishy-washer like myself.

I need to reread joth to form an opinion, currently not sold.
 Another bigger wagon is myself, not sold on that.

Joseph I feel is bit of mislynchbait, and due to playstyle (or day 1 aversion), not sure how much we'd learn from it. Always interesting when people have strong opinions based on flimsy things, though, so that'd be something.

What specific info could you get from shraeye's flip that you couldn't get from Joseph's flip?

[shraeye]

Nah eevee, I'm not a bad lynch.

Unless you want to drum up support for a raerae/ADK/faust lynch in the next X hours.

[SpaceAnemone]

Good to know, thanks guys.

Reread shraeye. He seems utterly unconcerned with seeming towny, starting off with the never to be revisited card claim in his first in-game post. The fact that near half our population wants to lynch him (for what!) makes me not. The wagon seems completely arbitrary and ~1/3 of you are scum, I think he’s less likely to be. I’m against shraeye lynch.

I feel like it wasn't actually the case that too many people were in favour of lynching Shraeye until the deadline started looming pretty large. And I do think there are minor red flags there. If he doesn't move back to Joth very soon, I'll be quite inclined to vote there, because the only reason I was giving him a bit of a pass earlier was that his voting was aligned with mine.. but it's since been pointed out that he started a poor-looking wagon in a scummy dismount from the Joth wagon at a key point when it was picking up steam, so I'm kind of starting to scumread him for that over other stuff.

If you're not happy with a Shraeye lynch, though, what's your personal feeling on the scumminess of Joth?

PPE: 5

[faust]

The fact that near half our population wants to lynch him (for what!) makes me not. The wagon seems completely arbitrary and ~1/3 of you are scum, I think he’s less likely to be. I’m against shraeye lynch.

With that attitude, I guess you're arguing for no lynch. Or do you have a less "arbitrary" wagon to offer?

[SpaceAnemone]

faust, his reasoning around me does not feel logical enough for him

What specifically would you expect faust do have done differently? Are there telltale things he's done that you feel are bad logic? I'd treat those as scumsigns from faust, but I haven't seen anything that felt like a warning sign so far.

[SpaceAnemone]

Oh, so Shraeye is L-2 then and not L-1?

He was at L-1, but then Mix moved from Shraeye back to Joth.

[Eevee]

I thought shraeye had done more “xxx is town, xx is scum” sort of posting, but now that I reread him, there wasn’t really as much as I thought, before his reads post just now. Btw, it’s of course wifom, but that’s a towny resignation to being the lynch: gives his reads for future, scum who thinks they’ll be lynched is more likely to fight the lynch or not give their reads if they think “resignation” is the best play.

if shraeye is scum, ADK and faust are more likely to be town. If he is scum, joth is more likely to be scum also because shraeye isn’t pushing for him now.

I don’t remember anything from joseph other him getting scolded of being too defeatist about day 1, so can’t contrast without rereading.

[faust]

raerae, interacted differently with me than I expected

Can you elaborate?

[SpaceAnemone]

joth, on second thought, I'm leaning town here.  Weaker than my Mix-read.

Ha, I almost missed this. You thought he was scummy enough to vote for when he only had a 4-person wagon, wriggled your way out of it as soon as the 5th vote landed, and now suddenly he's townie after all?

PPE: 2

[shraeye]

Specifically, that he's calling me out for supporting any wagon that moves.  Which

A) isn't true; I was what...the second voter on ADK? Pushed two people who were fresh wagons?

and

B) doesn't make me scum if it were true; and faust is the king of carefully reasoning "yes, action X is weird but is it a move scum-X would actually do??"

[shraeye]

raerae, interacted differently with me than I expected

Can you elaborate?

Nope.

[shraeye]

I'm going to class.  won't be back for, like, ever.

Y'all should either join me on faust or lynch me.

[faust]

A) isn't true; I was what...the second voter on ADK? Pushed two people who were fresh wagons?

I don't know who these 2 people are, I guess one of them is supposed to be me? That was of course after I called shraeye out. shraeye voted ADK, Joseph, joth. I'll grant that he was the first voter on Joseph, didn't realize that before, but not on the other wagons.

B) doesn't make me scum if it were true; and faust is the king of carefully reasoning "yes, action X is weird but is it a move scum-X would actually do??"

Yeah, I think it is a move that scum!you would absolutely do. I agree that not every player would do it as scum.

[MiX]

Well that's an easy decision.

Vote: ADK, wasn't he pushing shraeye and joth?

Will hammer joth and shraeye if need be.

PPE: why are you talking to shraeye in third person?

[SpaceAnemone]

Specifically, that he's calling me out for supporting any wagon that moves.  Which

A) isn't true; I was what...the second voter on ADK? Pushed two people who were fresh wagons?

and

B) doesn't make me scum if it were true; and faust is the king of carefully reasoning "yes, action X is weird but is it a move scum-X would actually do??"

Here's a brief summary of what my vote counter records about your voting:

You first vote was at #218 on ADK, 4th on the wagon (not second as you claimed), though raerae then moved to Eevee, leaving you in third place there for a while.

You jumped to start a Joseph wagon, but then went back to ADK in 4th place on the wagon for a while, while the rest of the wagon basically dissolved.

You even sat on that ADK wagon as a singleton for a while after LL left at #332, staying there till #402, when you jumped to 4th place on the Joth wagon alongside Galz, me and LL.

When Mix joined the Joth too, you moved very quickly to faust, where you've sat as the single person on his wagon for more than 100 posts now.

So yes, you joined two fresh wagons. I'd argue that the first one was a deliberate vote on someone who easily picks up mislynch wagons, and the other was too late in the day for a new direction to be a strong prospect.. people on singleton wagons right now are not helping for wagon analysis later, and that's kind of where scum want to be.

PPE: 2

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote: ADK, wasn't he pushing shraeye and joth?

Wait, what? I think I'm missing at least 10 intermediate logic steps required for your vote there to make sense... Care to break it down for me?

[LaLight]

4,5 hours till deadline? I hope to be here right before that.

I also don't like the speed shraeye wagon grew just when joth was about to be lynched. Not moving from joth!

[MiX]

Vote: ADK, wasn't he pushing shraeye and joth?

Wait, what? I think I'm missing at least 10 intermediate logic steps required for your vote there to make sense... Care to break it down for me?

Don't like shraeye wagon (he's scummy, but as LL said, too fast, besides I can just go back), joth wagon is okay-ish but what else is there? Then I remembered ADK, he pushed both wagons, didn't he? Honestly I'm not sure, no time to reread atm. Maybe he's setting up the lynches?

Can you answer the "was ADK pushing both shraeye and joth?" question please?

[jotheonah]

I would love to help get a faust or ADK wagon going, but I have this sneaking suspicion that if I move my vote off of shraeye I'm going to end up being the deadline panic lynch.

[SpaceAnemone]

Yeah, I'm pretty sold on Joth.

The other interesting thing there is that there's really quite good PoE on the wagon, given that Galz, LL and I have been there for ages (since #332). I would have expected scum to try to push that long before now if there wasn't a member already on the wagon (i.e. pointing the finger at me/LL/Galz), or if the wagon itself was already on scum (pointing the finger even more squarely at Joth).

Anyone who's hard-arguing for Joth being townie should be strongly considering that someone on that wagon is scummy. I'm not seeing that from Didds at least. Or Shraeye.

Yes, it's possible we could have three-townies-voting-town and it can just sit like that with scum preoccupied elsewhere, but it's also not that common, especially when Joth is quite a vocal active player whose lynch would actually benefit scum if he's town.

PPE: 2

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote: ADK, wasn't he pushing shraeye and joth?

Wait, what? I think I'm missing at least 10 intermediate logic steps required for your vote there to make sense... Care to break it down for me?

Don't like shraeye wagon (he's scummy, but as LL said, too fast, besides I can just go back), joth wagon is okay-ish but what else is there? Then I remembered ADK, he pushed both wagons, didn't he? Honestly I'm not sure, no time to reread atm. Maybe he's setting up the lynches?

Can you answer the "was ADK pushing both shraeye and joth?" question please?

I can go check wagons, but please stop calling ADK "he".

[faust]

PPE: why are you talking to shraeye in third person?

Oh, well he said he wouldn't be there, so this post is really directed at everyone else, so I got things messed up.

[SpaceAnemone]

Just for the record, the only people who've voted for both Shraeye and Joth so far are faust, MiX and Joseph.

Though I think LL and I have both said we'll move from Joth to Shraeye to get a lynch through.

Still not sure how that translates to MiX's vote on ADK in the meantime.

[MiX]

Vote: ADK, wasn't he pushing shraeye and joth?

Wait, what? I think I'm missing at least 10 intermediate logic steps required for your vote there to make sense... Care to break it down for me?

Don't like shraeye wagon (he's scummy, but as LL said, too fast, besides I can just go back), joth wagon is okay-ish but what else is there? Then I remembered ADK, he pushed both wagons, didn't he? Honestly I'm not sure, no time to reread atm. Maybe he's setting up the lynches?

Can you answer the "was ADK pushing both shraeye and joth?" question please?

I can go check wagons, but please stop calling ADK "he".

Okay so I'm still pretty sure they were pushing shraeye and joth, but they're not getting lynched, so my vote shouldn't be on them. Where's their vote anyway? Still shraeye? Don't wanna sheep them if my hunch is right, but joth is a beautiful mislynch if town...I'll just unvote them and...uh...

Vote: joth


PS: This post is about training to call ADK they.

PPE: Oh okay then ADK's out of the question.

[SpaceAnemone]

Okay so I'm still pretty sure they were pushing shraeye and joth,

... I still don't see why you think that's a reason to vote for ADK, especially if you're not also scumreading other people who really did push both Joth and Shraeye! Can you finish joining the dots for me please?

[MiX]

Okay so I'm still pretty sure they were pushing shraeye and joth,

... I still don't see why you think that's a reason to vote for ADK, especially if you're not also scumreading other people who really did push both Joth and Shraeye! Can you finish joining the dots for me please?

Because he was saying "why is the shraeye wagon not starting" and if he had pushed joth before it looked really scummy. And voting isn't pushing. I'm not pushing the shraeye wagon, for example. I think. Anyway I was wrong.

[jotheonah]

Okay so I'm still pretty sure they were pushing shraeye and joth,

... I still don't see why you think that's a reason to vote for ADK, especially if you're not also scumreading other people who really did push both Joth and Shraeye! Can you finish joining the dots for me please?

Because he was saying "why is the shraeye wagon not starting" and if he had pushed joth before it looked really scummy. And voting isn't pushing. I'm not pushing the shraeye wagon, for example. I think. Anyway I was wrong.

*because they were saying

[MiX]

Aaaaaaaaaah.

This is impossible. Sorry ADK.

[A Drowned Kernel]

The effort is appreciated, don't worry too much

Anyway I think that you're right that I was pushing joth at one point, he's probably been my only solid scum read today other than shraeye. Not particularly inclined to switch at the moment

[SpaceAnemone]

Okay so I'm still pretty sure they were pushing shraeye and joth,

... I still don't see why you think that's a reason to vote for ADK, especially if you're not also scumreading other people who really did push both Joth and Shraeye! Can you finish joining the dots for me please?

Because he was saying "why is the shraeye wagon not starting" and if he had pushed joth before it looked really scummy. And voting isn't pushing. I'm not pushing the shraeye wagon, for example. I think. Anyway I was wrong.

So is this different from me pushing Joth (both in terms of voting for him and making a case/promoting the wagon) since around #317, saying I think Shraeye might be scummy (which I did at #416), and complaining that the Joth wagon is also not picking up as I would have expected it to if Joth were town (which I said at #485)?

[raerae]

Space makes the most sense here. I still don't like how MiX is townreading the world. I don't get the shraeye/faust feud. I won't be around much today either.

Vote: joth

[Eevee]

Reread ADK, admittedly thinking/hoping I'd find them scummy.. but I didn't. I'll join faust if it becomes viable, but right now, since I prefer him over shraeye, I'm going to Vote: joth.

[Eevee]

Didn't see the PPE.. hopefully I didnt derphammer joth.

[Eevee]

Oof, Joth is at 6 now if Spacecount was accurate. Belated L-1 warning!

[Joseph2302]

Oof, Joth is at 6 now if Spacecount was accurate. Belated L-1 warning!

6 is L-2 in a 14 player game, right?

[Joseph2302]

And I prefer shraeye lynch over joth, but joth beats no lynch

[MiX]

Okay so I'm still pretty sure they were pushing shraeye and joth,

... I still don't see why you think that's a reason to vote for ADK, especially if you're not also scumreading other people who really did push both Joth and Shraeye! Can you finish joining the dots for me please?

Because he was saying "why is the shraeye wagon not starting" and if he had pushed joth before it looked really scummy. And voting isn't pushing. I'm not pushing the shraeye wagon, for example. I think. Anyway I was wrong.

So is this different from me pushing Joth (both in terms of voting for him and making a case/promoting the wagon) since around #317, saying I think Shraeye might be scummy (which I did at #416), and complaining that the Joth wagon is also not picking up as I would have expected it to if Joth were town (which I said at #485)?

Not very, but lynching you D1 sucks. You're one of my scumreads, just haven't voted you. Kinda like faust.

Oof, Joth is at 6 now if Spacecount was accurate. Belated L-1 warning!

6 is L-2 in a 14 player game, right?

Unless he's hated, yes.

And I prefer shraeye lynch over joth, but joth beats no lynch

Agreed.

Vote: shraeye, L-?

[SpaceAnemone]

Space Count

Shraeye (7): A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford, MiX
jotheonah (5): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae, Eevee
faust (1): Shraeye
Not Voting (1): Xxraptorslayer96

So Shraeye is at L-1, and MiX jumped off Joth the moment the wagons evened up, which might be telling for later.

[Joseph2302]

Oof, Joth is at 6 now if Spacecount was accurate. Belated L-1 warning!

6 is L-2 in a 14 player game, right?

Unless he's hated, yes.
[/quote]
That's a weirdly specific example for a game with no evidence that we're using hated

[Joseph2302]

Oof, Joth is at 6 now if Spacecount was accurate. Belated L-1 warning!

6 is L-2 in a 14 player game, right?

Unless he's hated, yes.

Quote fail. This is how I was trying to quote

[WestCoastDidds]

What's with Shraeye just giving up? Usually he fights to the death....

[MiX]

Space Count

Shraeye (7): A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford, MiX
jotheonah (5): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae, Eevee
faust (1): Shraeye
Not Voting (1): Xxraptorslayer96

So Shraeye is at L-1, and MiX jumped off Joth the moment the wagons evened up, which might be telling for later.

Yeah I did that for joth too. I don't want a derphammer.

Oof, Joth is at 6 now if Spacecount was accurate. Belated L-1 warning!

6 is L-2 in a 14 player game, right?

Unless he's hated, yes.

That's a weirdly specific example for a game with no evidence that we're using hated
[/quote]

I don't like extremely short answers. There's other reasons for 6 votes in a 14 player day to not be L-2, but hated is the most important one.

Quoting your fix is hard work on mobile.

What's with Shraeye just giving up? Usually he fights to the death....

It's part of his "I know faust is scum" bit. Or something. Shraeye is weird.

[Eevee]

shraeye said he likely won't be back before the deadline, has joth said anything about that? I remember joth asked for a chance to (decide if he wants to) claim before betting hammered, although I guess/hope that's standard practice these days.

[MiX]

shraeye said he likely won't be back before the deadline, has joth said anything about that? I remember joth asked for a chance to (decide if he wants to) claim before betting hammered, although I guess/hope that's standard practice these days.

When did he do that?

[MiX]

shraeye said he likely won't be back before the deadline, has joth said anything about that? I remember joth asked for a chance to (decide if he wants to) claim before betting hammered, although I guess/hope that's standard practice these days.

When did he do that?

("He" is joth, didn't think it could be ambiguous)

[Eevee]

Ok, L-4, 3 if raptor votes. That’s fine. Nobody hammer me tho, k?

[MiX]

Ok, L-4, 3 if raptor votes. That’s fine. Nobody hammer me tho, k?

That's not...well...I guess. I guess it's saying "don't hammer I wanna think". Okay.

I want joth's followup to this before deciding my final vote.

[SpaceAnemone]

So Shraeye is at L-1, and MiX jumped off Joth the moment the wagons evened up, which might be telling for later.

Yeah I did that for joth too. I don't want a derphammer.

You're also making it more likely that we don't get any lynch at all, because people who can't afford to hang out on here constantly till deadline can't get a feel for where you're actually going to be voting. If you are protecting a scumbuddy by flitting on and off their wagon so much that you can excuse being "off" at a key moment with an excuse like "I just didn't want a derphammer", then I don't like letting you get away with that!

PPE lots, including MiX using Eevee's intervening words as even more of an excuse to delay making up his mind. I find this really frustrating, because I'm busy at work and don't like being expected to react to MiX's last-minute whims in order to get a lynch through.

[SpaceAnemone]

I want joth's followup to this before deciding my final vote.

He's on L-3 because you've flited off him again. What pressure is there on Joth to chime in at this point rather than stay quiet and watch Shraeye go down instead?

[MiX]

I want joth's followup to this before deciding my final vote.

He's on L-3 because you've flited off him again. What pressure is there on Joth to chime in at this point rather than stay quiet and watch Shraeye go down instead?

What? I thought he was L-2!

Vote: joth

So Shraeye is at L-1, and MiX jumped off Joth the moment the wagons evened up, which might be telling for later.

Yeah I did that for joth too. I don't want a derphammer.

You're also making it more likely that we don't get any lynch at all, because people who can't afford to hang out on here constantly till deadline can't get a feel for where you're actually going to be voting. If you are protecting a scumbuddy by flitting on and off their wagon so much that you can excuse being "off" at a key moment with an excuse like "I just didn't want a derphammer", then I don't like letting you get away with that!

PPE lots, including MiX using Eevee's intervening words as even more of an excuse to delay making up his mind. I find this really frustrating, because I'm busy at work and don't like being expected to react to MiX's last-minute whims in order to get a lynch through.

Yeah so they should vote on whoever in joth/shraeye is scummy, not who's going to be flipped. There should be enough people active that can make any wagon work, right? If not then whoever isn't on a major wagon is anti-town.

[Joseph2302]

Yes we need everyone on shraeye or joth

[MiX]

So Shraeye is at L-1, and MiX jumped off Joth the moment the wagons evened up, which might be telling for later.

Yeah I did that for joth too. I don't want a derphammer.

You're also making it more likely that we don't get any lynch at all

Okay wait a second I put shraeye at L-1 and you're saying I'm not trying to get a lynch? I don't get it.

[jotheonah]

am I at L-1? do I need to claim?

[MiX]

am I at L-1? do I need to claim?

You're at L-2 and you needed to claim like 3 days ago.

[jotheonah]

am I at L-1? do I need to claim?

You're at L-2 and you needed to claim like 3 days ago.

Somebody really wants to know what the PRs are, huh?

[Joseph2302]

Half an hour til deadline I think

[Joseph2302]

Anyone wanna go shraeye?

[WestCoastDidds]

What's the VC? Is shraeye still at L-1?

[MiX]

What's the VC? Is shraeye still at L-1?

They're both at L-2

Anyone wanna go shraeye?

Vote: shraeye

What's the VC? Is shraeye still at L-1?

Yes.

[WestCoastDidds]

Okay....I think Space's last count is still correct and we have 30 minutes:

Space Count

Shraeye (7): A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford, MiX
jotheonah (5): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae, Eevee
faust (1): Shraeye
Not Voting (1): Xxraptorslayer96

[SpaceAnemone]

@MiX, you seem to be really confused about L-counts! Or you're just being scummy and getting it all wrong on purpose to mislead people. I'm not even sure any more.

Both Joth and Shraeye were at 6 votes (which is L-2) back at #539, then you moved from Joth to Shraeye at #544, at which point the former went to L-3, and the latter to L-1.

Didds is correct that nothing seems to have changed since my previous Space Count about an hour and a half ago. People are making noise, but everyone is too comfortable with the lynch apparent. MiX's recent Shraeye vote, other than making him look much busier than he really is, does nothing to the count because he were already voting there.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

I’m here, kinda. I can put a vote through rn if needed. How long till deadline?

[jotheonah]

I think if shraeye were town, one of us would already be lynched.

I think shraeye is scum and his partners are all on me already or already on him. Which is, admittedly, saying very little, since all but 2 players are on one of those two wagons.

[jotheonah]

9 minutes.

[WestCoastDidds]

To most, a playing card box is nothing more than a small container. For others, that small box is a home... or in some cases... a prison!

In a small room, behind closed doors, in hushed voices, the Kings gather...

"The uprising needs to be brought to an end immediately!"
   "We know this you fool, but how do we stop it? There numbers are far greater than ours!"
"Do not worry brothers... I have a plan. All we have to do is blend in, and let them tear each other apart."
   "Yes, listen here... this is how we will do it..."



Day 1 Begins Now! It will end at 1:40pm (EST) on October 28th, 2019.

With 14 players alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Not voting (15): faust, WCD, MiX, Galzria, ADK, XXRaptorSlayer96, Joth, Joseph, RaeRae, Shraeye, LaLight, Maxford, SpaceAnemone, Eevee

Day 1 ends on October 28th at 1:40pm EST.

19 minutes, rather

[MiX]

@MiX, you seem to be really confused about L-counts! Or you're just being scummy and getting it all wrong on purpose to mislead people. I'm not even sure any more.

Both Joth and Shraeye were at 6 votes (which is L-2) back at #539, then you moved from Joth to Shraeye at #544, at which point the former went to L-3, and the latter to L-1.

Didds is correct that nothing seems to have changed since my previous Space Count about an hour and a half ago. People are making noise, but everyone is too comfortable with the lynch apparent. MiX's recent Shraeye vote, other than making him look much busier than he really is, does nothing to the count because he were already voting there.

Actually I had just voted joth above. What I did in my recent post was answer Didds' question twice, once before my shraeye vote and once after.

I’m here, kinda. I can put a vote through rn if needed. How long till deadline?

20 minutes, shraeye L-1 joth L-3.

[SpaceAnemone]

I’m here, kinda. I can put a vote through rn if needed. How long till deadline?

It would be very good to see you on a worthwhile wagon!

I say vote Joth, but then it's clear that's my preferred wagon. Just take his recent post about Shraeye, and apply it in reverse to his wagon.. the Joth wagon has had townie people there for much longer.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Intent to hammer Shraeye then

[Xxraptorslayer96]

I’m here, kinda. I can put a vote through rn if needed. How long till deadline?

It would be very good to see you on a worthwhile wagon!

I say vote Joth, but then it's clear that's my preferred wagon. Just take his recent post about Shraeye, and apply it in reverse to his wagon.. the Joth wagon has had townie people there for much longer.

I would prefer joth as well

[SpaceAnemone]

Actually I had just voted joth above. What I did in my recent post was answer Didds' question twice, once before my shraeye vote and once after.

... and you argue that changing your mind every few minutes isn't confusing to the rest of the game??

[SpaceAnemone]

I’m here, kinda. I can put a vote through rn if needed. How long till deadline?

It would be very good to see you on a worthwhile wagon!

I say vote Joth, but then it's clear that's my preferred wagon. Just take his recent post about Shraeye, and apply it in reverse to his wagon.. the Joth wagon has had townie people there for much longer.

I would prefer joth as well

Then vote there and give other people a chance to hammer him!!

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Vote: Joth

[jotheonah]

I'm a doctor.

[jotheonah]

it doesn't matter, I'll probably get nightkilled anyway, now I've claimed it, but I'm an X-shot doctor.

[Eevee]

We got to lynch shraeye then?

[jotheonah]

I would recommend it!

[Eevee]

For what it's worth shraeye's last post gave me strong VT vibes so there is at least that.

[MiX]

Actually I had just voted joth above. What I did in my recent post was answer Didds' question twice, once before my shraeye vote and once after.

... and you argue that changing your mind every few minutes isn't confusing to the rest of the game??

When did I say that? 

I'm a doctor.

Ok.

Can we hammer shraeye already?

[SpaceAnemone]

Should we be asking for a card claim, or is there no point because of the probable existence of fakeclaims anyway?

[MiX]

Should we be asking for a card claim, or is there no point because of the probable existence of fakeclaims anyway?

Not yet. Maybe tomorrow. Honestly I forgot about where I was going with the card claims, it's been so long since the start of this day.

[jotheonah]

queen of diamonds, in case that helps convince anyone.

[Eevee]

vote: shraeye

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Vote: Shraeye

Just to be sure

[SpaceAnemone]

Huh.. not the outcome I wanted, but it will be interesting to see which way this one goes.

I'm a bit worried that the doctor thing is a convenient fake-claim.

If we have a tracker, Joth would be a great target for tonight, so that he's forced to say who he protected at the start of D2, and if that doesn't match the tracker result then we catch him in a lie.

[SpaceAnemone]

Though obviously if the tracker exists, they should with some percentage chance track someone else, just to avoid being too predictable...

[MiX]

Huh.. not the outcome I wanted, but it will be interesting to see which way this one goes.

I'm a bit worried that the doctor thing is a convenient fake-claim.

If we have a tracker, Joth would be a great target for tonight, so that he's forced to say who he protected at the start of D2, and if that doesn't match the tracker result then we catch him in a lie.

Except if joth is town he's gonna be NKd so the tracker should pick a scumread.

[faust]

Huh... sorry for not being around, I got sucked into a spontaneous meeting. Seems you did a good thing without me though.

[jotheonah]

I was planning not to protect anyone tonight, tbh, since no one itt is towny enough to be an obvious nightkill.

I guess now I'm an obvious nightkill. Maybe I can self-target.

[faust]

I was planning not to protect anyone tonight, tbh, since no one itt is towny enough to be an obvious nightkill.

Doesn't that depend on shraeye's flip? If he flips scum, surely there are people can can single out as towny.

[SpaceAnemone]

Maybe I can self-target.

X-shots sometimes can. Isn't that something you asked in your QT upon receiving the role? Or are you just wifoming at the rest of us by mentioning it now?

[jotheonah]

People ITT asking some scummy questions!

[Joseph2302]

Huh... sorry for not being around, I got sucked into a spontaneous meeting. Seems you did a good thing without me though.

Same as me, I got into a meeting right at hammer time. Shraeye seems like the right call
And if joth is actually town, then it's another game where they've been outed as PR early, which sucks

PPE: 2

[jotheonah]

Maybe I can self-target.

X-shots sometimes can. Isn't that something you asked in your QT upon receiving the role? Or are you just wifoming at the rest of us by mentioning it now?

I'm not wifoming at the rest of you, unless you're talking about you and your scum partners, in which case I'm absolutely doing that, yes.

[Joseph2302]

I was planning not to protect anyone tonight, tbh, since no one itt is towny enough to be an obvious nightkill.

I guess now I'm an obvious nightkill. Maybe I can self-target.

The fact you're asking makes me a bit suspicious that this is a quickly thought out fake claim....

PPE: 1

[Galzria]

Maybe I can self-target.

X-shots sometimes can. Isn't that something you asked in your QT upon receiving the role? Or are you just wifoming at the rest of us by mentioning it now?

I generally would never ask, assuming that I can’t, until such time as I felt it potentially necessary to know.

[Eevee]

Oh hey Galz. Whats up?

[shraeye]

And now we find out why I just laid down instead of fighting; I knew I was a better lynch than joth, and running him up to L-1 did nothing but out a PR.

[shraeye]

For last-minute actions, I'll remove Eevee from my scum list, and put on Raptor as a slight third.

I'm still going down claiming its raerae/ADK/faust.

[shraeye]

nah, actually leave Eevee in teh low-key scum group.

[shraeye]

If MiX gets lynched tomorrow, I'm going to flip tables.  Don't do it.

[WestCoastDidds]

Why raerae? Because she was being weird with you?

The no one joining me on MiX convinced me he's town

[raerae]

For last-minute actions, I'll remove Eevee from my scum list, and put on Raptor as a slight third.

I'm still going down claiming its raerae/ADK/faust.

Dude, you've been on your deathbed for a week and a half. Don't be an ass because I didn't berate you for not being heavily invested in the game.

[Swowl]

THREAD LOCKED!

Flip coming shortly.

[Swowl]

"Good work brothers. Now we are one step closer to taking back the Deck".
 
 "Yes, but let us not become overly enthusiastic. They were a mere 7 of spades... and there are still more of them then there are of us."

"Too true brother... I suppose there is still work to be done..."



Shraeye has been lynched! He was the 7 of Spades, the Numerically-Aligned Vanilla Townie.

[Swowl]

Day 1 Final Vote Count   

Shraeye (: A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford, MiX, Eevee
jotheonah (5): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae, xxraptorslayer96
faust (1): Shraeye


With 14 players alive, it took 8 to lynch.

Night starts now, and ends in in 48 hours - Wednesday, October 30th at 4:30pm EST.

Please submit all night actions within the next 24 hours!

[Swowl]

As the cards arise for the next day they cannot help but to feel as if the Deck feels... lighter...


WestCoastDidds has been killed! She was the 9 of Hearts, a Numerically-Aligned Vanilla Townie.



BUT WAIT! While the break of the shuffle was cruel to the true Numerical Cards... the riffle was kind. The remaining cards in the Deck awaken with an odd certainty that A Drowned Kernal simply must be Numerically-Aligned.



A Drowned Kernal is MOD confirmed to be Numerically-Aligned!

[Swowl]

                                           DAY 2 STARTS NOW!



     Vote Count 2.0:

Not Voting (12): A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, jotheonah, Maxford, MiX, Eevee, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae, xxraptorslayer96


With 12 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Thursday, November 7th at 2:45pm EST.

*There is a one day extension added for the Halloween Holiday.


THREAD UNLOCKED

[MiX]

I've been meaning to reread faust all night but I never got around to it in case I died in the night.

Vote: faust because shraeye is dead and ADK is IC. I'll get to rereading faust most likely tomorrow, hopefully my hunch is right.

[Eevee]

We’re back!

Interesting that both confirmed townies were on shraeye. I think looking in-wagon will be my first priority, very much including the surprisingly still with us joth.

[jotheonah]

Yeah, I'm highly-surprised to still be here. Sad for Didds though -- she can't catch a break in actually getting to play a game.

[jotheonah]

lol I did no re-reading during the night because that's how sure I was I would be NK'd.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm going to have to look back and figure out what the heck that kill means

[Joseph2302]

So anyway, ADK must be scum because I'm a watcher, and ADK targetted Didds last night

[Joseph2302]

Joking by the way. None of that last post was at all true

[A Drowned Kernel]

 vote: joseph

[faust]

ADK - is the ICing something that you did yourself, or did it happen to you?

[MiX]

ADK - is the ICing something that you did yourself, or did it happen to you?

How does that help town in any way?

[Eevee]

Vote: faust

[raerae]

Awesome! This evens the field a bit, right? Much excited.

[raerae]

I've been meaning to reread faust all night but I never got around to it in case I died in the night.

Vote: faust because shraeye is dead and ADK is IC. I'll get to rereading faust most likely tomorrow, hopefully my hunch is right.

Can you explain this a bit more?

[MiX]

I've been meaning to reread faust all night but I never got around to it in case I died in the night.

Vote: faust because shraeye is dead and ADK is IC. I'll get to rereading faust most likely tomorrow, hopefully my hunch is right.

Can you explain this a bit more?

Shraeye was scumreading faust, I was scumreading ADK but he's IC. Also I have a hunch on faust being scum that I wanted to reread about but never got around to it. I'm kinda busy this week.

[raerae]

I've been meaning to reread faust all night but I never got around to it in case I died in the night.

Vote: faust because shraeye is dead and ADK is IC. I'll get to rereading faust most likely tomorrow, hopefully my hunch is right.

Can you explain this a bit more?

Shraeye was scumreading faust, I was scumreading ADK but he's IC. Also I have a hunch on faust being scum that I wanted to reread about but never got around to it. I'm kinda busy this week.

shraeye scumread me too, why pick faust over me? Is it your hunch that pushed you that way or something else?

[MiX]

I've been meaning to reread faust all night but I never got around to it in case I died in the night.

Vote: faust because shraeye is dead and ADK is IC. I'll get to rereading faust most likely tomorrow, hopefully my hunch is right.

Can you explain this a bit more?

Shraeye was scumreading faust, I was scumreading ADK but he's IC. Also I have a hunch on faust being scum that I wanted to reread about but never got around to it. I'm kinda busy this week.

shraeye scumread me too, why pick faust over me? Is it your hunch that pushed you that way or something else?

Yes...? What is with that question? Are you PR hunting?

[raerae]

I've been meaning to reread faust all night but I never got around to it in case I died in the night.

Vote: faust because shraeye is dead and ADK is IC. I'll get to rereading faust most likely tomorrow, hopefully my hunch is right.

Can you explain this a bit more?

Shraeye was scumreading faust, I was scumreading ADK but he's IC. Also I have a hunch on faust being scum that I wanted to reread about but never got around to it. I'm kinda busy this week.

shraeye scumread me too, why pick faust over me? Is it your hunch that pushed you that way or something else?

Yes...? What is with that question? Are you PR hunting?

It looks like you're picking and choosing who's scummy based on whatever loose reason you can find. Of course I'm going to question something that looks that haphazard.

[A Drowned Kernel]

ADK - is the ICing something that you did yourself, or did it happen to you?

I'm going to hold off on answering this question for the time being but I gotta say I don't like the faust votes

[SpaceAnemone]

I agree with Eevee that it's interesting that both new known townies are on-wagon, though presumably scum did not anticipate that ADK was going to be ICd when they picked Didds for the NK.

I'm kind of not surprised that our "doctor" didn't die. I also think we have a very strong chance of at least one scum between Joth and Galz, because of the way Joth's wagon went. If Galz could come into the game now and be really townie, that would be great...

Shraeye's wagon has two known town in the first four places, unless you count the fact that Mix was there in 4th place for a time before flitting off and back again in his particularly unsettled period in the run-up to the deadline. Anyway, the two currently-unknown players there now are faust and Joseph in 2nd and 3rd place respectively, and then Joth (or Mix) taking 5th place. Of those four players, I think my scum-to-chum list would go Joth, MiX, Joseph, faust.

[faust]

Awesome! This evens the field a bit, right? Much excited.

What evens the field? ADK being an IC? That's a mechanic that was probably planned to happen, why does it even the field?

[SpaceAnemone]

As for the kill, Didds is one of the players I associate most closely with Joth. Of the currently-alive-in-this-game players, are there many others who've played together with Joth in as many games lately as Didds has?

OTOH, if both Joth and MiX are scummy, maybe killing off someone who townread Joth so vocally was worth it because she was also scumreading MiX, and maybe MiX was picking up a bit of heat towards the end there. I was certainly finding his behaviour in the run-up to deadline quite anti-town.

The other thing to consider is that everyone other than the now-dead Shraeye was either on the Joth wagon or the Shraeye wagon at the end of the day, so wagon PoE may well have been on scum's mind, but the pools of people we're trying to whittle down are as big as it's possible for them to be. I guess an on-wagon kill means it's more likely that all the scum weren't off-wagon, but then that was highly likely already just by the way it all went down. So I'm getting less than I want to from wagon analysis :-(

[SpaceAnemone]

Awesome! This evens the field a bit, right? Much excited.

What evens the field? ADK being an IC? That's a mechanic that was probably planned to happen, why does it even the field?

Huh.. that seems a fair enough comment to me. The game felt a bit scum-skewed because of numbers, and then because they've either outed a town doctor or successfully averted a scum lynch and replaced it with a town one, which seem like good going for scum. At least knowing we have an IC helps make the game feel more like it's been set up in a balanced way.

[MiX]

Shraeye's wagon has two known town in the first four places, unless you count the fact that Mix was there in 4th place for a time before flitting off and back again in his particularly unsettled period in the run-up to the deadline. Anyway, the two currently-unknown players there now are faust and Joseph in 2nd and 3rd place respectively, and then Joth (or Mix) taking 5th place. Of those four players, I think my scum-to-chum list would go Joth, MiX, Joseph, faust.

If joth is town, does the wagon composition matter at all? We should look around when it was clear one of them was the lynch (and by how joth had softclaimed PR a bunch of days ago, it was shraeye), we can go back to this if joth flips scum.

As for the kill, Didds is one of the players I associate most closely with Joth. Of the currently-alive-in-this-game players, are there many others who've played together with Joth in as many games lately as Didds has?

What does this have to do with anything?

OTOH, if both Joth and MiX are scummy, maybe killing off someone who townread Joth so vocally was worth it because she was also scumreading MiX, and maybe MiX was picking up a bit of heat towards the end there. I was certainly finding his behaviour in the run-up to deadline quite anti-town.

Do you mean to say scum instead of scummy? Also, I was only anti-town because I didn't want joth to get away with softclaiming PR without hardclaiming PR. He did a bad move and I didn't want scum to get away with softclaiming PR to escape scrutiny. This way he's still an option for lynching if he's scum, he doesn't get NK'd if he's town, he has to claim D1 if he's scum (which presents a whole bunch of problems if town flips, say, X-shot doctor), we don't have to do the "who knew joth was PR" dance which helps us not out PRs, etc etc.

ADK - is the ICing something that you did yourself, or did it happen to you?

I'm going to hold off on answering this question for the time being but I gotta say I don't like the faust votes

If you say so...

Vote: Space

[Maxford]

I've been meaning to reread faust all night but I never got around to it in case I died in the night.

Vote: faust because shraeye is dead and ADK is IC. I'll get to rereading faust most likely tomorrow, hopefully my hunch is right.

So, I've done a bit of rereading of faust's posts, and while I don't see any hard evidence, there is a least some evidence he might be scummy:
-he is still alive,
-post #116, his vote against ADK is unexplained, says in #148 that he wants other people to form their opinions before telling anything, in #231 he explains he's voting for ADK because of ADK's vote against shraeye for claming. While he says that this reaction is more likely to come from town, he doesn't explain why (this is not obvious to me, but maybe it's more obvious to other people?). People discuss why after, but he doesn't intervene again on this topic.
- there's the discussion between him and joth about lurking being a scumtell or nothing-tell, but I don't think there's much to learn from this.
-# 421 he is the second one to vote against shraeye, again, without any good explanation, or at least I can't find any.
-then there's the question to ADK about whether the ICing (whatever these letters stand for) was self-provoked or not, and I don't see how this could help town in any way.

So here's the information I could gather. I don't know faust's meta, but in general I think it's beneficial to town if people can explain their reasoning. With the caveat that this is a quick reread, and that I really should also investigate other players, I'm fine with voting against faust for the moment.

Vote: faust

[SpaceAnemone]

If joth is town, does the wagon composition matter at all?

Yes, because there is a strong tendency for scum to spread their votes, so it's really common for people to say things like "two on, one off" when considering lynch wagons. Here, there is only one option for the "off". What matters most is the groupings.. if you get enough independent "one scum in {X,Y,Z}", you can get a good handle on who's most likely to be scummy... and those groupings come from being on wagons together. And it's not that easy a thing to manipulate for scum, because the inferences depend on the order town dies, and how different townies vote.

We should look around when it was clear one of them was the lynch (and by how joth had softclaimed PR a bunch of days ago, it was shraeye), we can go back to this if joth flips scum.

Can you explain what you mean here with a few more words please? It doesn't make sense to me. I do agree that a Joth scum flip would be nice and informative.

As for the kill, Didds is one of the players I associate most closely with Joth. Of the currently-alive-in-this-game players, are there many others who've played together with Joth in as many games lately as Didds has?

What does this have to do with anything?

Possible motivations for the kill include how well a given player can read other players in the game.

OTOH, if both Joth and MiX are scummy, maybe killing off someone who townread Joth so vocally was worth it because she was also scumreading MiX, and maybe MiX was picking up a bit of heat towards the end there. I was certainly finding his behaviour in the run-up to deadline quite anti-town.

Do you mean to say scum instead of scummy? Also, I was only anti-town because I didn't want joth to get away with softclaiming PR without hardclaiming PR. He did a bad move and I didn't want scum to get away with softclaiming PR to escape scrutiny. This way he's still an option for lynching if he's scum, he doesn't get NK'd if he's town, he has to claim D1 if he's scum (which presents a whole bunch of problems if town flips, say, X-shot doctor), we don't have to do the "who knew joth was PR" dance which helps us not out PRs, etc etc.

Yes, scum. I'm glad you admit you were anti-town, but I fail to see how your behaviour stopped Joth "getting away with" anything. If he's town, you forced a PR out. Downsides of that include: scum killing him, scum using their own PRs (blocking/strongmanning etc) to counteract him, scum making free use of the wifom that leaves us with, etc etc.. OTOH, if he's scum, sure, you stopped him getting away with pretending to have softcalimed a useful-to-town PR, but at that point the only way you'd be sure you were "stopping him getting away with" something was if you also had knowledge that he was scum, which looks bad both for him and for you. So yeah, I'm not buying your "look how helpful I was" text here!

I do think that a lot of why I think MiX is scum right now rests on my admittedly-weak and quite tunnely case on Joth, but at the same time, just because there is a certain amount of wifom value around having a still-alive claimed doctor, I think I'd prefer to see MiX lynched first. Though getting a scum flip on MiX doesn't incriminate Joth to the same extent that I think a scum flip on Joth would incriminate MiX. I'll do more thinking, but right now I really have to get to sleep...

Vote: MiX

PPE 1: Hey look, another not-asleep UK-based person :-P

[SpaceAnemone]

Aw, @Maxford, you should really meet Awaclus (another mafia player on f.ds) if you want the full version of why mafia players should never ever reveal anything about their thought processes or justify their votes. He's quite a strong player, but his opinions can drive people up the wall.

Faust, while less extreme, is also quite partial to leaving others to work stuff out for themselves, and I wouldn't scumread him for it.

"IC" stands for "innocent child", and is the name of a role where the mod announces you as town to the game, either at the start or at a particular point in the game. It's possible that ADK's role is "D2 IC" or something, but it's also possible that there's some other mechanism that has let their townie status become known to the game, and that was part of another player's power or something. Other ways for getting an "IC" would be stuff like knowing that a particular role has to be present in the game, and then only one player claiming in-thread to have that role. That's a bit harder to achieve in a game where we don't know exactly what roles are present.

AS for "ICing", the letters IC get verbified, so we talk about "ICing" someone as proving that they're town. Except for MiX, who tends to claim that he's ICd himself when he does the slightest townie thing.

[jotheonah]

I’m very drunk and my parents are in town. There are a lot of new posts, but idk when I’ll have time to read them/catch up.

[faust]

-he is still alive,

Well hmf. I guess I have not done enough in this game. But also, there a claimed Doctor running around, maybe not the best time for scum to shoot for the standard nightkill.

-post #116, his vote against ADK is unexplained, says in #148 that he wants other people to form their opinions before telling anything, in #231 he explains he's voting for ADK because of ADK's vote against shraeye for claming. While he says that this reaction is more likely to come from town, he doesn't explain why (this is not obvious to me, but maybe it's more obvious to other people?). People discuss why after, but he doesn't intervene again on this topic.

Did you mean scum? Did I not explain this? I think it's easy for scum to attack any unorthodox play, because it is commonly (and wrongly) believed here that such things constitute scumtells, and it's a way to generate a legitimate-seeming read.

-# 421 he is the second one to vote against shraeye, again, without any good explanation, or at least I can't find any.

This is definitely wrong, and I'm pretty sure I explained this in multiple posts, so I suggest a more thorough read.

-then there's the question to ADK about whether the ICing (whatever these letters stand for) was self-provoked or not, and I don't see how this could help town in any way.

Say ADK dies the next night and hasn't shared this. Then someone comes out and claims they ICed them. We wouldn't know whether to believe that. If ADK tells us, then we know and could potentially single out this hypothetical person as another townie.

[A Drowned Kernel]

-then there's the question to ADK about whether the ICing (whatever these letters stand for) was self-provoked or not, and I don't see how this could help town in any way.

Say ADK dies the next night and hasn't shared this. Then someone comes out and claims they ICed them. We wouldn't know whether to believe that. If ADK tells us, then we know and could potentially single out this hypothetical person as another townie.

This was my thought. I'll decide for myself whether claiming this info is a good idea or not, probably after sleeping on it tonight. I don't think faust is scummy for wanting to know, and people trying to paint him as such might be looking for an easy target

[Xxraptorslayer96]

If MiX gets lynched tomorrow, I'm going to flip tables.  Don't do it.

The no one joining me on MiX convinced me he's town

Well this is worth a decent amount of town cred for Mix, at least for me.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

I've been meaning to reread faust all night but I never got around to it in case I died in the night.

Vote: faust because shraeye is dead and ADK is IC. I'll get to rereading faust most likely tomorrow, hopefully my hunch is right.

Please share your finding on Faust when you reread. I’m curious what you think of him.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

@ADK- Can I ask for your reasoning on the Joseph vote?

[raerae]

Awesome! This evens the field a bit, right? Much excited.

What evens the field? ADK being an IC? That's a mechanic that was probably planned to happen, why does it even the field?

You're technically correct, as always. The math of the game hasn't changed but I certainly feel better about not having to trust my own read on at least one person.

[raerae]

If MiX gets lynched tomorrow, I'm going to flip tables.  Don't do it.

The no one joining me on MiX convinced me he's town

Well this is worth a decent amount of town cred for Mix, at least for me.

I don't see it, shraeye thought MiX was town, Didds died after trying to push his lunch but had rethought her opinion and that gives him towncred? These both just seem like standard D1 town thoughts. Help me understand.

[Joseph2302]

So anyway joth is a claimed doctor

Which means either:
He's a doctor, and scum didn't want to kill him because they thought they would self target, or investigate riles may exist, so killing someone else gives less info

Or joth is scum, in which case it's unlikely we have an actual doctor in this game (as probably a real doctor wouldn't have trusted joth's claim, as 2 doctors is unlikely)

[Joseph2302]

I'm suspicious of joth still, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm right about them

[Joseph2302]

Actually, another interesting question about the NK is why not faust? Faust is almost the go to N1 NK if they're town

[Swowl]

                  Vote Count 2.0:

Joseph (1): A Drowned Kernal
faust (2): Eevee, Maxford
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone

Not Voting (7): faust, Joseph2302, jotheonah, Galzria, LaLight, raerae, xxraptorslayer96


With 12 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Thursday, November 7th at 2:45pm EST.

[Joseph2302]

Day 1 Final Vote Count   

Shraeye (: A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford, MiX, Eevee
jotheonah (5): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae, xxraptorslayer96
faust (1): Shraeye

So alive people on wagon were {ADK, faust, Joseph, joth, maxford, mix, Eevee}
Which means there surely has to be at least 1 scum (maybe more) in {faust, joth, maxford, mix, Eevee}

[Joseph2302]

Vote: mix for now

[Joseph2302]

I'm trying to work out more how I feel about joth and faust. But I think lynching in the on wagon seems optimal

[SpaceAnemone]

Actually, another interesting question about the NK is why not faust? Faust is almost the go to N1 NK if they're town

Didn't Maxford and faust himself pretty much already bring this up and respond to it? What else do you want to factor in?

[MiX]

If joth is town, does the wagon composition matter at all?

Yes, because there is a strong tendency for scum to spread their votes, so it's really common for people to say things like "two on, one off" when considering lynch wagons. Here, there is only one option for the "off". What matters most is the groupings.. if you get enough independent "one scum in {X,Y,Z}", you can get a good handle on who's most likely to be scummy... and those groupings come from being on wagons together. And it's not that easy a thing to manipulate for scum, because the inferences depend on the order town dies, and how different townies vote.

Fine, but it's not going to be as useful as VCs before everyone was voting shraeye and joth.

We should look around when it was clear one of them was the lynch (and by how joth had softclaimed PR a bunch of days ago, it was shraeye), we can go back to this if joth flips scum.

Can you explain what you mean here with a few more words please? It doesn't make sense to me. I do agree that a Joth scum flip would be nice and informative.

If joth flips scum then, yes, that VC is very very important. But considering no counterclaim, I'm not sure we can assume that.

As for the kill, Didds is one of the players I associate most closely with Joth. Of the currently-alive-in-this-game players, are there many others who've played together with Joth in as many games lately as Didds has?

What does this have to do with anything?

Possible motivations for the kill include how well a given player can read other players in the game.

Other motivations include the person's reads D1. I think those are more important...

OTOH, if both Joth and MiX are scummy, maybe killing off someone who townread Joth so vocally was worth it because she was also scumreading MiX, and maybe MiX was picking up a bit of heat towards the end there. I was certainly finding his behaviour in the run-up to deadline quite anti-town.

Do you mean to say scum instead of scummy? Also, I was only anti-town because I didn't want joth to get away with softclaiming PR without hardclaiming PR. He did a bad move and I didn't want scum to get away with softclaiming PR to escape scrutiny. This way he's still an option for lynching if he's scum, he doesn't get NK'd if he's town, he has to claim D1 if he's scum (which presents a whole bunch of problems if town flips, say, X-shot doctor), we don't have to do the "who knew joth was PR" dance which helps us not out PRs, etc etc.

Yes, scum. I'm glad you admit you were anti-town, but I fail to see how your behaviour stopped Joth "getting away with" anything. If he's town, you forced a PR out. Downsides of that include: scum killing him, scum using their own PRs (blocking/strongmanning etc) to counteract him, scum making free use of the wifom that leaves us with, etc etc.. OTOH, if he's scum, sure, you stopped him getting away with pretending to have softcalimed a useful-to-town PR, but at that point the only way you'd be sure you were "stopping him getting away with" something was if you also had knowledge that he was scum, which looks bad both for him and for you. So yeah, I'm not buying your "look how helpful I was" text here!

If he's town everyone and their mother knew he was a PR. He basically outed himself instantly with the minimal pressure. I'm still scumreading that. If he's scum I made sure he would lock himself into a claim, which might be counterclaimed by others. Honestly I think the upsides are bigger than the downsides here. Also, if he's town, he's alive while softclaiming PR, you don't see that every day.

[MiX]

Actually, another interesting question about the NK is why not faust? Faust is almost the go to N1 NK if they're town

I haven't seen a faust N1 NK since I started playing. This is pretty old meta.

Day 1 Final Vote Count   

Shraeye (: A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford, MiX, Eevee
jotheonah (5): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae, xxraptorslayer96
faust (1): Shraeye

So alive people on wagon were {ADK, faust, Joseph, joth, maxford, mix, Eevee}
Which means there surely has to be at least 1 scum (maybe more) in {faust, joth, maxford, mix, Eevee}

Yeah that sounds right, but that's mostly because there's 4 scum, so the odds everyone was voting joth are extremely low.

[Eevee]

Say ADK dies the next night and hasn't shared this. Then someone comes out and claims they ICed them. We wouldn't know whether to believe that. If ADK tells us, then we know and could potentially single out this hypothetical person as another townie.

Couldn’t it be a mandatory scum power too? I also think fishing from ADK has more downside than upside, although I think we can trust them to not give away too much, I think they’ll also know to tell us what we need to know.

[Joseph2302]

Actually, another interesting question about the NK is why not faust? Faust is almost the go to N1 NK if they're town

Didn't Maxford and faust himself pretty much already bring this up and respond to it? What else do you want to factor in?

Well it could just be a WIFOM
Scum know that Faust gets NK early, so they decide not to kill them so that it attracts suspicion on faust

[Joseph2302]

Actually, another interesting question about the NK is why not faust? Faust is almost the go to N1 NK if they're town

I haven't seen a faust N1 NK since I started playing. This is pretty old meta.

Day 1 Final Vote Count   

Shraeye (: A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford, MiX, Eevee
jotheonah (5): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae, xxraptorslayer96
faust (1): Shraeye

So alive people on wagon were {ADK, faust, Joseph, joth, maxford, mix, Eevee}
Which means there surely has to be at least 1 scum (maybe more) in {faust, joth, maxford, mix, Eevee}

Yeah that sounds right, but that's mostly because there's 4 scum, so the odds everyone was voting joth are extremely low.

With 4 scum (which I forgot, because uselessness), that probably means 2 on and 2 off I reckon

[MiX]

Actually, another interesting question about the NK is why not faust? Faust is almost the go to N1 NK if they're town

I haven't seen a faust N1 NK since I started playing. This is pretty old meta.

Day 1 Final Vote Count   

Shraeye (: A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford, MiX, Eevee
jotheonah (5): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae, xxraptorslayer96
faust (1): Shraeye

So alive people on wagon were {ADK, faust, Joseph, joth, maxford, mix, Eevee}
Which means there surely has to be at least 1 scum (maybe more) in {faust, joth, maxford, mix, Eevee}

Yeah that sounds right, but that's mostly because there's 4 scum, so the odds everyone was voting joth are extremely low.

With 4 scum (which I forgot, because uselessness), that probably means 2 on and 2 off I reckon

That's so arbitrary. Assume joth is town: what's scum's incentive to split evenly? Or not? It's a mislynch regardless. Besides, some people voting on shraeye just happened to be there around deadline so they moved from joth after his claim. You have to look backwards, to a point where the wagons weren't all formed up.

If joth is scum the, yes, you're right, and I approve of "if joth is scum then there's one other scum on the shraeye wagon". Actually that means we should look at the non-joth people in the shraeye wagon, there's most likely scum there.

[Joseph2302]

Actually, another interesting question about the NK is why not faust? Faust is almost the go to N1 NK if they're town

I haven't seen a faust N1 NK since I started playing. This is pretty old meta.

Day 1 Final Vote Count   

Shraeye (: A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford, MiX, Eevee
jotheonah (5): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae, xxraptorslayer96
faust (1): Shraeye

So alive people on wagon were {ADK, faust, Joseph, joth, maxford, mix, Eevee}
Which means there surely has to be at least 1 scum (maybe more) in {faust, joth, maxford, mix, Eevee}

Yeah that sounds right, but that's mostly because there's 4 scum, so the odds everyone was voting joth are extremely low.

With 4 scum (which I forgot, because uselessness), that probably means 2 on and 2 off I reckon

That's so arbitrary. Assume joth is town: what's scum's incentive to split evenly? Or not? It's a mislynch regardless. Besides, some people voting on shraeye just happened to be there around deadline so they moved from joth after his claim. You have to look backwards, to a point where the wagons weren't all formed up.

If joth is scum the, yes, you're right, and I approve of "if joth is scum then there's one other scum on the shraeye wagon". Actually that means we should look at the non-joth people in the shraeye wagon, there's most likely scum there.

I'm not assuming that joth is town. And I think that if joth isn't then there's probably 2, maybe 3 actually, on the shraeye wagon (one of which would be joth), but some would be on the bussing wagon. Because if it's scum/town as the choices, rarely are all the scum on the town one as it's too obvious

[Joseph2302]

But if joth is town, I agree scum don't really care which wagon they're on

Call me crazy, but I want to Vote: joth

[Maxford]

-he is still alive,

Well hmf. I guess I have not done enough in this game. But also, there a claimed Doctor running around, maybe not the best time for scum to shoot for the standard nightkill.

-post #116, his vote against ADK is unexplained, says in #148 that he wants other people to form their opinions before telling anything, in #231 he explains he's voting for ADK because of ADK's vote against shraeye for claming. While he says that this reaction is more likely to come from town, he doesn't explain why (this is not obvious to me, but maybe it's more obvious to other people?). People discuss why after, but he doesn't intervene again on this topic.

Did you mean scum? Did I not explain this? I think it's easy for scum to attack any unorthodox play, because it is commonly (and wrongly) believed here that such things constitute scumtells, and it's a way to generate a legitimate-seeming read.

-# 421 he is the second one to vote against shraeye, again, without any good explanation, or at least I can't find any.

This is definitely wrong, and I'm pretty sure I explained this in multiple posts, so I suggest a more thorough read.

-then there's the question to ADK about whether the ICing (whatever these letters stand for) was self-provoked or not, and I don't see how this could help town in any way.

Say ADK dies the next night and hasn't shared this. Then someone comes out and claims they ICed them. We wouldn't know whether to believe that. If ADK tells us, then we know and could potentially single out this hypothetical person as another townie.

Yes, I meant scum sorry.

[SpaceAnemone]

If MiX gets lynched tomorrow, I'm going to flip tables.  Don't do it.

The no one joining me on MiX convinced me he's town

Well this is worth a decent amount of town cred for Mix, at least for me.

... and both flipped VT, meaning they couldn't possibly have known anything more than just meta and D1 reads about MiX. If one of them had flipped red, it would be much more interesting to try to read into whatever they'd had to say on the subject.

As it is, while it's nice to have known-town opinion, if we only pay attention to things flipped VTs have said, we risk not listening to town PRs trying to put info into the game by way of reads. Not that I'm trying to soft-claim any investigative PR here, but it would surprise me if the game didn't include one or two.


PPE 8: It's a busy day. Also, Maxford and I will be in the same place from immediately after work till late (Thursday is Games Night!), so I apologies if I don't post much in the net 24 hours.

[faust]

If joth is scum the, yes, you're right, and I approve of "if joth is scum then there's one other scum on the shraeye wagon". Actually that means we should look at the non-joth people in the shraeye wagon, there's most likely scum there.

I don't see how that follows.

[MiX]

If joth is scum the, yes, you're right, and I approve of "if joth is scum then there's one other scum on the shraeye wagon". Actually that means we should look at the non-joth people in the shraeye wagon, there's most likely scum there.

I don't see how that follows.

If joth is town, there's probably at least 1 scum in the shraeye wagon. If joth is scum, there's probably at least 2 scum in the shraeye wagon. Thus there's probably 1 scum in the shraeye wagon if we remove joth.

You know, in a game with 4 scum, getting 1 in a group of 5(?) isn't really impressive, is it... I guess this means less than I thought.

[LaLight]

vote: joth

No way I will believe he's doctor who is alive because WIFOM

[Eevee]

Reread faust. Initially my vote on him was to elicit a reaction from him; to make him acknowledge that people think he's suspicious. Which he didn't do really, which is a reaction in itself of course. After the reread, I just don't see much helpful analysis from faust yet, and the people he has pushed and suspected has proven to be town, which is not everything, but it's something. Happy keeping my vote there.

@LL
I also think joth is more than 50% to be scum, but don't we have to be more sure than usually to lynch him given the claim? If he's town, he's more useful than your average townie. If he keeps surviving nights, it's likely we can either clear or damn him with a tracking role. Or just lynch him because no claimed doctor lives forever unless they are lying.

[A Drowned Kernel]

@ADK- Can I ask for your reasoning on the Joseph vote?

Annoyance

[A Drowned Kernel]

I just had a thought about the lack of joth kill: there's a traitor in this game. Scum might not know whether joth is lying or not

[Eevee]

I just had a thought about the lack of joth kill: there's a traitor in this game. Scum might not know whether joth is lying or not

Argument for lynching joth, certainly.

Another pro-joth lynch argument: we need to hit scum today or it's going to be extremely difficult to win. Mislynching joth or another townie is pretty comparable as far as death blows for town go.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I just had a thought about the lack of joth kill: there's a traitor in this game. Scum might not know whether joth is lying or not

Argument for lynching joth, certainly.

I don't see that it is

[raerae]

Actually, another interesting question about the NK is why not faust? Faust is almost the go to N1 NK if they're town

I haven't seen a faust N1 NK since I started playing. This is pretty old meta.

I know this is weird but I'm with MiX here. This seems like an old and easy argument without anything really behind it.

[Eevee]

You are right, could go either way.

I think it's very conceivable scum was straight up worried about tracking roles - presumably they didn't know about the IC when making their call last night - even if they didn't have any strong power roles (like strongman..), they have to assume town has something to balance out the high number of scum. They also might view joth as a possible mislynch.

It's just adding up with joth, the most convenient claim, I agree the softclaim wasn't great (real doctor has way more to lose from that than a scum fakeclaiming doctor would), now surviving the night.

I guess wagon analysis might be helpful in that if joth is specifically mafia, scum had a situation with one of theirs and one of towns end of day. If joth is scum, the people who pushed shraeye look scummier and the people who pushed joth are (way) townier.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'll have to look back at the specifics but the way that I remember it, shraeye had one or two votes on him for a fairly long time, while joth had a substantial wagon for most of the day, and then the shraeye wagon was scrambled together at the last second. To me that doesn't look like scum working to protect one of their own, it looks like scum knowing both the potential lynches are town and letting town do the scrambling for them

[Joseph2302]

Reread faust. Initially my vote on him was to elicit a reaction from him; to make him acknowledge that people think he's suspicious. Which he didn't do really, which is a reaction in itself of course. After the reread, I just don't see much helpful analysis from faust yet, and the people he has pushed and suspected has proven to be town, which is not everything, but it's something. Happy keeping my vote there.

@LL
I also think joth is more than 50% to be scum, but don't we have to be more sure than usually to lynch him given the claim? If he's town, he's more useful than your average townie. If he keeps surviving nights, it's likely we can either clear or damn him with a tracking role. Or just lynch him because no claimed doctor lives forever unless they are lying.

This was behind my thinking of "if joth is scum, then...." because if he is, it gives us information on where more of the other scum are

[Joseph2302]

I just had a thought about the lack of joth kill: there's a traitor in this game. Scum might not know whether joth is lying or not

Argument for lynching joth, certainly.

I don't see that it is

Me neither
If joth isn't scum, then how does scum not knowing if they are doctor or traitor affect how town sees joth (as scum or town)?

[faust]

Reread faust. Initially my vote on him was to elicit a reaction from him; to make him acknowledge that people think he's suspicious. Which he didn't do really, which is a reaction in itself of course. After the reread, I just don't see much helpful analysis from faust yet, and the people he has pushed and suspected has proven to be town, which is not everything, but it's something. Happy keeping my vote there.

I posted a pretty detailed response to Maxford's post voting for me, is that not reacting?

If you want to go down the road of "faust's reads are bad", you should also acknowledge that I had a decently strong townread on ADK by the end of the day, so I did get some things right. Your framing of "faust suspected town!ADK" is manipulatively reductive.

[faust]

I'll have to look back at the specifics but the way that I remember it, shraeye had one or two votes on him for a fairly long time, while joth had a substantial wagon for most of the day, and then the shraeye wagon was scrambled together at the last second. To me that doesn't look like scum working to protect one of their own, it looks like scum knowing both the potential lynches are town and letting town do the scrambling for them

This is a pretty good reasoning. The shraeye votes farther from the deadline were me and you, it would have been easy for scum to join there.

[faust]

Vote: Eevee

[faust]

If MiX gets lynched tomorrow, I'm going to flip tables.  Don't do it.

The no one joining me on MiX convinced me he's town

Well this is worth a decent amount of town cred for Mix, at least for me.

That Didds quote is weird, it almost looks like she might have switched up town and scum? Or else I don't see the reasoning.

[faust]

Couldn’t it be a mandatory scum power too? I also think fishing from ADK has more downside than upside, although I think we can trust them to not give away too much, I think they’ll also know to tell us what we need to know.

I think it's very conceivable scum was straight up worried about tracking roles - presumably they didn't know about the IC when making their call last night

Something about these two is very off. Eevee is entertaining the idea that scum made the IC only to dismiss it immediately after. Goes to show that he never believed in that story and it was just a hypothetical for argument's sake.

[jotheonah]

Vote: eevee

[Eevee]

My top scumreads voting me feels like a badge of honor!

[Xxraptorslayer96]

If MiX gets lynched tomorrow, I'm going to flip tables.  Don't do it.

The no one joining me on MiX convinced me he's town

Well this is worth a decent amount of town cred for Mix, at least for me.

... and both flipped VT, meaning they couldn't possibly have known anything more than just meta and D1 reads about MiX. If one of them had flipped red, it would be much more interesting to try to read into whatever they'd had to say on the subject.

As it is, while it's nice to have known-town opinion, if we only pay attention to things flipped VTs have said, we risk not listening to town PRs trying to put info into the game by way of reads. Not that I'm trying to soft-claim any investigative PR here, but it would surprise me if the game didn't include one or two.


PPE 8: It's a busy day. Also, Maxford and I will be in the same place from immediately after work till late (Thursday is Games Night!), so I apologies if I don't post much in the net 24 hours.

I guess I just held the opinion of two Townies to highly.

[jotheonah]

I guarantee the scum convo went

“Should we kill Joth?”

“Nah, he’s an easy mislynch, his claim sounded like a fakeclaim, and we can play the ‘why didn’t scum kill him WIFOM card”

Strongly suspect scum is pushing or at least talking up a Joth lynch rn

[MiX]

From one point I jump from joth to shraeye to joth to shraeye to joth to shraeye...in the VCA. I'm going to omit these hops, because that was me telling joth to claim PR.

Just so people aren't surprised if I mentioned "only these people voted in this time period" and someone says "but you did".

This also means the VCA is most likely going to be ready by the end of today, which means I might be able to reread faust first thing tomorrow! Fun.

I guarantee the scum convo went

“Should we kill Joth?”

“Nah, he’s an easy mislynch, his claim sounded like a fakeclaim, and we can play the ‘why didn’t scum kill him WIFOM card”

Strongly suspect scum is pushing or at least talking up a Joth lynch rn

Yeah, of course you would.

[MiX]

My faust reread gave me a whole bunch of nothing. Yay, back to faust-null to me.

I think there's scum in (Eevee/LL/Galz/Raptor) just from general impressions of what happened yesterday and who wasn't under suspicion. I'll reread these tomorrow.

For now:

Vote: LaLight for the snap-vote on joth. That and because I had a slight townread on Eevee at the start of D1 and I don't want to vote them yet.

[Maxford]

I guarantee the scum convo went

“Should we kill Joth?”

“Nah, he’s an easy mislynch, his claim sounded like a fakeclaim, and we can play the ‘why didn’t scum kill him WIFOM card”

Strongly suspect scum is pushing or at least talking up a Joth lynch rn

Who are you talking about specifically? Jospeh? Eevee? LaLight?

[jotheonah]

I guarantee the scum convo went

“Should we kill Joth?”

“Nah, he’s an easy mislynch, his claim sounded like a fakeclaim, and we can play the ‘why didn’t scum kill him WIFOM card”

Strongly suspect scum is pushing or at least talking up a Joth lynch rn

If the shoe fits...

Who are you talking about specifically? Jospeh? Eevee? LaLight?

[jotheonah]

Sorry quote fail.

Q: Who are you talking about specifically?
A: If the shoe fits...

[SpaceAnemone]

Space Count, in case it's useful to see who's voting where:

Joseph2302 (1): A Drowned Kernel
faust (2): Eevee, Maxford
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
jotheonah (2): Joseph2302, LaLight
Eevee (2): faust, jotheonah
LaLight (1): MiX
Not Voting (3): Galzria, Xxraptorslayer96, raerae

A: If the shoe fits...

♪ If New York's in debt why should Virginia bear it? ♪
Dammit :-P

While I'm not voting Joth right now, I'm still openly scumreading him, so I guess I ought to have been in Maxford's little party. Howcome I got left out?

[raerae]

Sorry I've been mildly MIA, I'm not voting for joth today.  I agree it's weird he's alive but not weird enough to kill the potential doc so early.

I'm down for a MiX vote.  He kept calling Didds' case on him good and she's dead now.  Good enough for me unless somebody has something better.

Vote: MiX

[MiX]

Preemptive prod dodge, I'll be super busy untill Monday so I doubt I'll get any reread done till then.

I'm down for a MiX vote.  He kept calling Didds' case on him good and she's dead now.  Good enough for me unless somebody has something better.

Vote: MiX

I don't even know where to begin with this. Didds would be the last person I'd kill.

The other part of raerae's post is basically buddying joth, but that's more null than anything.

[LaLight]

I am pretty sure both MiX and Joth are scum.

[jotheonah]

I am pretty sure both MiX and Joth are scum.

Vote: MiX

Does that help?

[Swowl]

Vote Count 2.1:


MiX (3): SpaceAnemone, raerae, Joth
faust (2): Eevee, Maxford
jotheonah (2): Joseph2302, LaLight
Joseph2302 (1): A Drowned Kernel
Eevee (1): faust
LaLight (1): MiX
Not Voting (2): Galzria, Xxraptorslayer96


With 12 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Thursday, November 7th at 2:45pm EST.

[MiX]

Prod: faust

Everyone else who is also MIA also gets an implied prod, but I have a higher standard for faust.

I am pretty sure both MiX and Joth are scum.

Vote: MiX

Does that help?

Why? I mean, I know why, but I want to know what you're gonna say.

[Joseph2302]

A

[A Drowned Kernel]

A

Is this a typo?

[faust]

Prod: faust

Everyone else who is also MIA also gets an implied prod, but I have a higher standard for faust.

Yeah, sorry about that. I am a bit busier these days and thus find it easier to play a bit more reaction-style, which makes it hard when there's nothing to react to.

[faust]

More people should be voting for Eevee, and fewer should vote for joth.

[MiX]

More people should be voting for Eevee, and fewer should vote for joth.

Vote: Eevee

[jotheonah]

Vote: eevee

Dunno what I was thinking with that MiX vote

[Joseph2302]

A

Is this a typo?

This was me attempting to avoid being prodded

[Joseph2302]

More people should be voting for Eevee, and fewer should vote for joth.

I could be tempted....

[jotheonah]

A

Is this a typo?

This was me attempting to avoid being prodded

Really taking low-effort posting to new heights.

[raerae]

More people should be voting for Eevee, and fewer should vote for joth.

So you're pretty anti-MiX then, huh?

[Maxford]

Couldn’t it be a mandatory scum power too? I also think fishing from ADK has more downside than upside, although I think we can trust them to not give away too much, I think they’ll also know to tell us what we need to know.

I think it's very conceivable scum was straight up worried about tracking roles - presumably they didn't know about the IC when making their call last night

Something about these two is very off. Eevee is entertaining the idea that scum made the IC only to dismiss it immediately after. Goes to show that he never believed in that story and it was just a hypothetical for argument's sake.

@Eevee, what's your response to this?

[Joseph2302]

A

Is this a typo?

This was me attempting to avoid being prodded

Really taking low-effort posting to new heights.

Well I've been keeping up, and I still think my vote is right

[faust]

More people should be voting for Eevee, and fewer should vote for joth.

So you're pretty anti-MiX then, huh?

I think MiX is has a decent chance of being scum.

[faust]

A

Is this a typo?

This was me attempting to avoid being prodded

Really taking low-effort posting to new heights.

In contrast to this cleverly composed post.

[Eevee]

Couldn’t it be a mandatory scum power too? I also think fishing from ADK has more downside than upside, although I think we can trust them to not give away too much, I think they’ll also know to tell us what we need to know.

I think it's very conceivable scum was straight up worried about tracking roles - presumably they didn't know about the IC when making their call last night

Something about these two is very off. Eevee is entertaining the idea that scum made the IC only to dismiss it immediately after. Goes to show that he never believed in that story and it was just a hypothetical for argument's sake.

@Eevee, what's your response to this?

I think it's 90% (just my estimation based on experience, no game driven reason) that the IC'ing was either an automatic or a town-triggered power. For some reason I felt it was worth it to voice the small chance it might be scum-driven, even though for all practical analysis I would agree that's not a fruitful path. So, yeah, my first post was a bit stupid, I had just woken up 10 minutes ago and was grunching the thread from bed, posting the first thing that came to my mind.

Why do you guys think I'm scum? I tried to oppose the lynch of shraeye (town), but made an effort to be present at the deadline to help us get through a lynch we (probably?) needed to get through. I would have assumed people would think I'm on the townier side based on how yesterday ended up.

I would defend myself more, but I'm not sure what to defend against. I don't know why you guys want to lynch me.

[Eevee]

I think it's more useful for town if you put pressure on me about why you think I'm the best lynch rather than just vote for me- I'd like to have to react to it because I think that's my most effective way of communicating my alignment to fellow townies in the dark.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

I will get to this a bit later tonight, it doesn’t seem like there is a lot going on as off right now.

[jotheonah]

@Eevee: I explained my case on you at the end of the previous game day. I think you have been posting a lot but not saying much, what we used to call “actilurking”

[Eevee]

I would say that that's generally how I post, but your mileage may vary. I would also dispute that I haven't been taking stances on this game, but, again, YMMV.

[A Drowned Kernel]

A

Is this a typo?

This was me attempting to avoid being prodded

Then I will keep my vote parked right where it is. I guess the "A" stands for "anti-town"

[Joseph2302]

A

Is this a typo?

This was me attempting to avoid being prodded

Then I will keep my vote parked right where it is. I guess the "A" stands for "anti-town"

Seriously, you're an IC and you need to be looking for actual scum. Instead of just hiding behind my antics

[Joseph2302]

So far as I can see, there's literally no case given for voting Eevee. And I don't like that wagon as a result

[SpaceAnemone]

Sorry for my low-content day! I have a plaster (American: band-aid) on my right index finger after a freak curtain-shopping accident earlier, and typing is surprisingly difficult :-P

@Joseph: I don't think scolding the IC for making a protest vote about anti-town play is that useful, nor are "antics" in general.

@Eevee: At #125 you votes LL just in case I was scum and trying to hide a scum-buddy in my D1 pass list. Why did you feel it sensible to pick LL over just voting me directly?

[A Drowned Kernel]

A

Is this a typo?

This was me attempting to avoid being prodded

Then I will keep my vote parked right where it is. I guess the "A" stands for "anti-town"

Seriously, you're an IC and you need to be looking for actual scum. Instead of just hiding behind my antics

I think there's a good chance you are actual scum. And putting myself front and center and leading the discussion is not necessarily the best move as an IC, as that makes it very easy for scum to hide behind sheeping me

[Swowl]

Vote Count 2.2:


Eevee (3): faust, MiX, Joth,
MiX (2): SpaceAnemone, raerae
faust (2): Eevee, Maxford
jotheonah (2): Joseph2302, LaLight
Joseph2302 (1): A Drowned Kernel

Not Voting (2): Galzria, Xxraptorslayer96


With 12 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Thursday, November 7th at 2:45pm EST.

[Joseph2302]

A

Is this a typo?

This was me attempting to avoid being prodded

Then I will keep my vote parked right where it is. I guess the "A" stands for "anti-town"

Seriously, you're an IC and you need to be looking for actual scum. Instead of just hiding behind my antics

I think there's a good chance you are actual scum. And putting myself front and center and leading the discussion is not necessarily the best move as an IC, as that makes it very easy for scum to hide behind sheeping me

Okay, if you think I'm actually scum, rather than just being anti-town, then that's fine

Wrong, but makes more sense

[Eevee]

@Eevee: At #125 you votes LL just in case I was scum and trying to hide a scum-buddy in my D1 pass list. Why did you feel it sensible to pick LL over just voting me directly?

This is me failing to convey tone over the internet. I wanted to vote for LL regardless, the part about you two being scumbuddies was just me trying to make a joke.

[faust]

So far as I can see, there's literally no case given for voting Eevee. And I don't like that wagon as a result

I think you just need to look a little harder.

[Maxford]

So far as I can see, there's literally no case given for voting Eevee. And I don't like that wagon as a result

I think I agree with you and Eeveen on this

[jotheonah]

Vote: Joseph

I think Joseph and Eevee are equally scummy, so I might as well vote with the IC.

[Eevee]

Scummy people:
Max, Joth, faust, Raptor, raerae

Not sure: SA, Joseph, Galzria (we want more!)

Towny: Maxford


@Galzria Thoughs on my alignment or wagon?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Scummy people:
Max, Joth, faust, Raptor, raerae

Not sure: SA, Joseph, Galzria (we want more!)

Towny: Maxford


@Galzria Thoughs on my alignment or wagon?

You missed LaLight

[Eevee]

Makes him scummy!

[Joseph2302]

Vote: Joseph

I think Joseph and Eevee are equally scummy, so I might as well vote with the IC.

This makes me happier that my vote is in the right place

[Eevee]

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

[raerae]

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

So the fact that he's a claimed PR with no counterclaim holds less sway with you than the fact that he isn't acting like you would??

[jotheonah]

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

I couldn’t disagree with you more. I find defensiveness like you’re describing to be a scum trait 9 times out of 10.

[jotheonah]

Right now I’m a dead man walking. If town suspects me, great. It’s a reason for scum to leave me alive. I don’t expect I’m getting lynched today.

[faust]

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

So the fact that he's a claimed PR with no counterclaim holds less sway with you than the fact that he isn't acting like you would??

What do you mean "with no counteclaim"?

[faust]

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

Is your way of showing townies that you're town to call everyone scum? That's not working very well for me.

[MiX]

Scummy people:
Max, Joth, faust, Raptor, raerae

Not sure: SA, Joseph, Galzria (we want more!)

Towny: Maxford


@Galzria Thoughs on my alignment or wagon?

Scummy people: (easy scumread, easy scumread, easy scumread, lurker scumread, original scumread)

Not sure: (original "townread", townread so he doesn't vote me, lurker townread)

Towny: Newbie

This reads list has a clear agenda behind it. I would like to see real townreads other than ford, almost every read here is free (the SA and raerae reads are original, however, it's not all scummy).

Also please don't call me max, it took me a while to see where I was in the readslist.

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

Is your way of showing townies that you're town to call everyone scum? That's not working very well for me.

Didn't Eevee say the complete opposite just now? There's an objectively better thing to quote for that, which is Eevee's previous (two) post(s).


Eevee's D1 posts are somewhat towny however, they were opposing both wagons (but mostly the shraeye wagon) which is towny. I want to see where this wagon goes while I reread LL/Galz/Raptor.

[Eevee]

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

So the fact that he's a claimed PR with no counterclaim holds less sway with you than the fact that he isn't acting like you would??

My prior was that we are less than 50% to have a doctor in the game. Is this misguided?

A good half of my suspicion on joth stems from him claiming doctor and surviving the night. Before any claims, I'd expect an individual player to be a doctor ~5% of the time. Joth facing lynch and claiming a role that's almost certainly going to save him from the lynch that day (in this case to cause a VT to go instead) is inherently suspicious to me. If he rolled town, he's a strong power role once every ten times or so? If he rolled scum, he might be claiming doc (or something similar) close to every time in the situation he was in. Isn't joth all things considered much more likely to be scum once he' claimed doctor AND survived the night?

Also his soft-claim prior seemed to only benefit him in case he's scum (making sure he gets to claim before anyone hammers). A real doctor would need to worry about tipping scum off and dying in the night even if you manage to avoid the lynch without hardclaiming.

[raerae]

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

So the fact that he's a claimed PR with no counterclaim holds less sway with you than the fact that he isn't acting like you would??

What do you mean "with no counteclaim"?

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

So the fact that he's a claimed PR with no counterclaim holds less sway with you than the fact that he isn't acting like you would??

What do you mean "with no counteclaim"?

I'm not sure why this is a question. Nobody else has said they're the doc so gives me more reason to believe his claim than disbelieve it.

[Eevee]

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

Is your way of showing townies that you're town to call everyone scum? That's not working very well for me.

To be fair, 12 players left, remove myself and the IC, 4/10 of you are indeed scum. If I'm right about Maxford, it's 4/9. There's a lot of scum in this game! Which I'm sure you knew, of course.

It's too bad I'm not getting through to you, but I'm trying my best and taking suggestions if you have any better ideas. It's pretty crazy that in this situation anyone that I suspect more than an average townie actually is more than 50% to be scum 
from my perspective. Means that exerting a lot of energy or beating yourself up for seeming scummy to someone probably isn't too fruitful. Scum isn't trying help us achieve clarity here, and they are many among us.

[Eevee]

Scummy people:
Max, Joth, faust, Raptor, raerae

Not sure: SA, Joseph, Galzria (we want more!)

Towny: Maxford


@Galzria Thoughs on my alignment or wagon?

Scummy people: (easy scumread, easy scumread, easy scumread, lurker scumread, original scumread)

Not sure: (original "townread", townread so he doesn't vote me, lurker townread)

Towny: Newbie

This reads list has a clear agenda behind it. I would like to see real townreads other than ford, almost every read here is free (the SA and raerae reads are original, however, it's not all scummy).

Also please don't call me max, it took me a while to see where I was in the readslist.

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

Is your way of showing townies that you're town to call everyone scum? That's not working very well for me.

Didn't Eevee say the complete opposite just now? There's an objectively better thing to quote for that, which is Eevee's previous (two) post(s).


Eevee's D1 posts are somewhat towny however, they were opposing both wagons (but mostly the shraeye wagon) which is towny. I want to see where this wagon goes while I reread LL/Galz/Raptor.

Max was a typo, apologies.

No agenda behind my readlist, I really just posted what I think. The spin is entirely from you, although I guess it would make sense that the people that are easy to find scummy I do find scummy? Does anyone else have strong townreads in this game? I'd sure love to have some.


Fwiw I'm not particularly worried of being the lynch today either. Clear conscience does that I guess, I have faith in this town.

[Eevee]

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

So the fact that he's a claimed PR with no counterclaim holds less sway with you than the fact that he isn't acting like you would??

Before the game started (or before the claim or whatever), did you assume we'd have a doc? I would have put it somewhere around 30% myself, so no counterclaim doesn't seem super relevant to me.

[faust]

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

So the fact that he's a claimed PR with no counterclaim holds less sway with you than the fact that he isn't acting like you would??

What do you mean "with no counteclaim"?

I'm not sure why this is a question. Nobody else has said they're the doc so gives me more reason to believe his claim than disbelieve it.

It's a closed game, and he claimed X-shot. I certainly wouldn't feel compelled to claim if I was any sort of protective role since those things can coexist, so it seems a weird angle to consider.

[Eevee]

Isn't looking at bayesian probabilities useful for trying to figure out this joth situation?

[Eevee]

Isn't looking at bayesian probabilities useful for trying to figure out this joth situation?

I'm a college dropout who didn't take any science or math in high school past the mandatory, I would appreciate the help if this stuff comes quicker for any of you (as I'm sure it does, although I'm hesitant to call anyone out by name as this feels like asking someone to do my homework all over again).

[raerae]

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

So the fact that he's a claimed PR with no counterclaim holds less sway with you than the fact that he isn't acting like you would??

My prior was that we are less than 50% to have a doctor in the game. Is this misguided?

A good half of my suspicion on joth stems from him claiming doctor and surviving the night. Before any claims, I'd expect an individual player to be a doctor ~5% of the time. Joth facing lynch and claiming a role that's almost certainly going to save him from the lynch that day (in this case to cause a VT to go instead) is inherently suspicious to me. If he rolled town, he's a strong power role once every ten times or so? If he rolled scum, he might be claiming doc (or something similar) close to every time in the situation he was in. Isn't joth all things considered much more likely to be scum once he' claimed doctor AND survived the night?

Also his soft-claim prior seemed to only benefit him in case he's scum (making sure he gets to claim before anyone hammers). A real doctor would need to worry about tipping scum off and dying in the night even if you manage to avoid the lynch without hardclaiming.

I don't understand the math here, it isn't a compelling argument for me, I apologize.

I do think we agree on principal but disagree on severity. I'm willing to let him live to see it play out but you seem hell-bent on ending him today.  That's what's so confusing to me, there's no downside to letting him live, we aren't at end game and he's the last surviving scum so why the rush to kill a potential PR?  You also say a VT will be the kill today. How do you know?

[raerae]

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

So the fact that he's a claimed PR with no counterclaim holds less sway with you than the fact that he isn't acting like you would??

Before the game started (or before the claim or whatever), did you assume we'd have a doc? I would have put it somewhere around 30% myself, so no counterclaim doesn't seem super relevant to me.

I didn't put any consideration into what we would or wouldn't have. Doc doesn't surprise me because there usually is one in a beginner friendly game.

[MiX]

Isn't looking at bayesian probabilities useful for trying to figure out this joth situation?

It is. I'll let Space do it cause they loooove to do that, whereas I don't think that's particularly useful in mafia games. I can't think of any time that has been more useful than reads in any game I've played (and read), and it's a great way for scum to scumread someone for free if they're on the correct side of probability and something to argue about if they're on the wrong side.

[Eevee]

I meant VT was the kill instead of him yesterday, directly caused by the claim.

And I'm certainly not hell-bent on lynching joth, I should have communicated this more clearly (although if you reread today, I came in thinking he's not a good lynch). I think town is pretty much dead unless we hit scum today, so any kind of arguments for letting someone live have to be cognizant of that. What made me want to lynch joth more is that I don't think we can afford to not go for whoever we think is most likely to be scum, and my instinct says that should be joth based on how convenient his claim (and him living) is, but I'm not certain about this.

[Eevee]

Fwiw stuff like bringing up bayesian probabilities regarding joth would be something I'd have expected from townfaust, whereas this faust thus far seems more snarky than helpful and analytic.

Of course it's early in the game and I don't proclaim to have been super useful or to have strong reads myself yet, but that was the feeling rereading faust left me with.

[Eevee]

Fwiw stuff like bringing up bayesian probabilities regarding joth would be something I'd have expected from townfaust, whereas this faust thus far seems more snarky than helpful and analytic.

Of course it's early in the game and I don't proclaim to have been super useful or to have strong reads myself yet, but that was the feeling rereading faust left me with.

This applied to SA as well to a lesser extent, I'm not sure why I have them null instead of scummy in my head. It's quite possibly because SA is so pleasant and friendly, whereas faust has for the most part been suspecting and questioning me all game, which probably primes me for reading him more negatively. I'll try to keep the subconscious bias in conscious thought.

[raerae]

I meant VT was the kill instead of him yesterday, directly caused by the claim.

And I'm certainly not hell-bent on lynching joth, I should have communicated this more clearly (although if you reread today, I came in thinking he's not a good lynch). I think town is pretty much dead unless we hit scum today, so any kind of arguments for letting someone live have to be cognizant of that. What made me want to lynch joth more is that I don't think we can afford to not go for whoever we think is most likely to be scum, and my instinct says that should be joth based on how convenient his claim (and him living) is, but I'm not certain about this.

Gotcha. That's a little clearer but I still disagree. So, here we are.

[MiX]

Fwiw stuff like bringing up bayesian probabilities regarding joth would be something I'd have expected from townfaust, whereas this faust thus far seems more snarky than helpful and analytic.

Of course it's early in the game and I don't proclaim to have been super useful or to have strong reads myself yet, but that was the feeling rereading faust left me with.

This isn't scummy. In fact if faust did that it would be much more scummy than not.

Fwiw stuff like bringing up bayesian probabilities regarding joth would be something I'd have expected from townfaust, whereas this faust thus far seems more snarky than helpful and analytic.

Of course it's early in the game and I don't proclaim to have been super useful or to have strong reads myself yet, but that was the feeling rereading faust left me with.

This applied to SA as well to a lesser extent, I'm not sure why I have them null instead of scummy in my head. It's quite possibly because SA is so pleasant and friendly, whereas faust has for the most part been suspecting and questioning me all game, which probably primes me for reading him more negatively. I'll try to keep the subconscious bias in conscious thought.

This is null, Space loves to do this so there's no way they would've thought about it and not done it.

These "reads" are so weak, it's crazy. Does scum go scumreading people on something they thought of in the moment? I don't know.

[Eevee]

I'm not disagreeing they are weak, I've always found it extremely difficult to form reads before the first scum flip. We have so little information! I wouldn't bet that my read list right now is any more accurate than a monkey throwing darts at a wall could make.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Joth can you tell us who you doctored the first night?

Also how early is too early for a mass claim?

[A Drowned Kernel]

IC says no massclaim

[Xxraptorslayer96]

IC says no massclaim

Can I ask why?

[Joseph2302]

Joth can you tell us who you doctored the first night?

Also how early is too early for a mass claim?

This is too early

[Joseph2302]

Also I agree with Eevee about the joth doctor claim. Just because no-one counterclaimed, there's no reason why there would definitely be a doctor in the game

And it's a reasonable common PR in closed setups from my experience, so seems like a reasonable thing to claim

[Joseph2302]

Also how many games has raptor played? Because asking for mass claim in a closed setup seems scummy (gives scum a lot of information and outs all our PRs), but I'm thinking it's probably a newbie suggestion rather than definitely scum indicative

[jotheonah]

To answer a few Qs that have come up.

Not gonna say who I targeted, for reasons. At least not right now.

Reason for the soft claim is I thought perhaps it would keep one or two more astute players off my back while keeping me from having to claim completely. It sort of worked I think.

Eevee is striking me as scummier and scummier so I'm going back to vote: Eevee. He reads like scum that can't believe more people aren't going for the case that he and his partners in the scum QT thought would be so easy today. Been there, dude. It's rough.

[Eevee]

Postcount including pregame:

joth: 82
Joseph: 71
LaLight: 15
raerae: 64
Mix: 111
faust: 63
Galzria: 16
Eevee: 58
SpaceAnemone: 82
ADK: 36
Raptor: 25
Maxford: 26

Like half of Galzria's posts are pregame too. Him and LaLight have really been rarely heard from.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Also how many games has raptor played? Because asking for mass claim in a closed setup seems scummy (gives scum a lot of information and outs all our PRs), but I'm thinking it's probably a newbie suggestion rather than definitely scum indicative

I think this is my 4th or 5th game. I do have a reason for asking for a mass claim but it doesn't effect my reason too much if we do or if we don't, so its okay.

[A Drowned Kernel]

IC says no massclaim

Can I ask why?

I feel like it's too early, though I thought about it a little and two dead VTs makes it a little more enticing. But still probably too early

[A Drowned Kernel]

Also how many games has raptor played? Because asking for mass claim in a closed setup seems scummy (gives scum a lot of information and outs all our PRs), but I'm thinking it's probably a newbie suggestion rather than definitely scum indicative

I feel like suggestions for massclaims are more likely to come from town than from scum precisely because they're perceived as scummy

[SpaceAnemone]

Wow, all this "get Space to do Bayesian stuff" talk seems both entirely misguided and very double-edged!

I'm absolutely all over that stuff when we're in a *9++-type setup and I can work out the likelihood of every given role combination ahead of time. Right now, though? The role distribution comes from the inside of Swan's head, and nobody has given me anything remotely resembling a precise algorithm to determine that!

As for what we might expect to be in there, your guesses are way better than mine, because I expect may of you have read more of the forum, retain more minutiae about what Swan likes/believes, and/or know Swan way better in person.. and those are all factors that govern whether having multiple X-shot doctors in this particular set-up is likely or not.

That said, why are people suddenly so keen to get me and/or faust talking about it?

[SpaceAnemone]

For the "counterclaim" question, I do think it's possible for two X-shot protection roles to be in the game, and any townie holding a second X-shot protection kind of role shouldn't necessarily have wanted to counterclaim for obvious reasons.

I think it's less likely there'd a full doc as well as an X-shot doc, but I think a full doc should be even more reluctant to out themself than anyone with an X-shot protection role.

[SpaceAnemone]

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

What about if Joseph's town? I feel like his whole "if you think I'm scum then that's fine" thing to ADK was very weak.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

or know Swan way better in person..

I would not put it above Swan what so ever to create multiple of the same role. He is.. twisted, in that aspect. I feel like galz would second that? 

PPE: 2

[SpaceAnemone]

I think Eevee had some good points about us needing to catch scum today, and how voting for whomever we think has the highest chance of being scummy is our best bet.

However, I think a mislynch now takes us into tomorrow with an expected 10 players of whom 4 are scum, assuming there's an NK, and that nothing else erodes town's numbers even more. While bad, it's not an immediate loss.

That takes me to Raerae's point about it not hurting us to leave Joth around. That's true, because there have to be three other scum players out there and without additional information about what PRs they may have, they're all equally good targets.

I think Raerae's approach has one more thing its favour, though, at least for some of us, and that is that people's scumminess starts to get correlated. The reason I'm voting MiX is that I think Joth is scummy, but I think MiX's behaviour is both anti-town in its own right and that his end-of-D1 play was designed to detract from Joth.. so it's the best of both worlds.

I think maaaaybe Eevee was too eager for us to wait for Joth's claim (I hadn't even parsed his original "don't lynch me" comment as asking for a chance to claim), and then too quick to go from that to immediately dropping the idea of a Joth lynch. Maybe that was just the heat of the deadline, but it could also be scum squirming with discomfort at having to watch one of their own go down and being a little overeager for it to go differently. I can at least appreciate that the wagon is maybe also sort of linked.

Oh, and there's the slim possibility that Joth's actually telling the truth, which I shouldn't completely ignore. Sorry if this is turning into a rambling post. I feel like I've only articulated about half of where my point wants to go, but I really need to be asleep now... more tomorrow!

[Joseph2302]

Also how many games has raptor played? Because asking for mass claim in a closed setup seems scummy (gives scum a lot of information and outs all our PRs), but I'm thinking it's probably a newbie suggestion rather than definitely scum indicative

I feel like suggestions for massclaims are more likely to come from town than from scum precisely because they're perceived as scummy

Although that's a WIFOM argument, because scum may know it's too scummy, and so would look towny by asking it...

[Joseph2302]

My thoughts on people:

Player List:
1. faust - towny
2. WCD - VT, dead
3. MiX - null to scum
4. Galzria - literally no content to gain opinion from, but lurkiness is anti-town
5. ADK - IC
6. XXRaptorSlayer96 - null, I think massclaim was newbie rather than indicative of alignment
7. Joth - claimed doctor, but I'm suspicious of claim. Scummy
8. Joseph - definitely town
9. RaeRae - null
10. Shraeye - VT, dead
11. LaLight - needs more content
12. Maxford - leaning towards town
13. Space - seems towny
14. Eevee

[Joseph2302]

14. Eevee - I'm leaning towards towny

[Maxford]

Isn't looking at bayesian probabilities useful for trying to figure out this joth situation?

It is. I'll let Space do it cause they loooove to do that, whereas I don't think that's particularly useful in mafia games. I can't think of any time that has been more useful than reads in any game I've played (and read), and it's a great way for scum to scumread someone for free if they're on the correct side of probability and something to argue about if they're on the wrong side.

Is there any reason to think this doesn't happen with reads as well?

Also, maybe it may be worth to be a bit more systematic about this.

[Maxford]

Postcount including pregame:

joth: 82
Joseph: 71
LaLight: 15
raerae: 64
Mix: 111
faust: 63
Galzria: 16
Eevee: 58
SpaceAnemone: 82
ADK: 36
Raptor: 25
Maxford: 26

Like half of Galzria's posts are pregame too. Him and LaLight have really been rarely heard from.

@Space, can we get a post count that does not include pregame posts?

[SpaceAnemone]

Space Count

Joseph2302 (1): A Drowned Kernel
faust (2): Eevee, Maxford
MiX (2): SpaceAnemone, raerae
jotheonah (2): Joseph2302, LaLight
Eevee (3): faust, MiX, jotheonah
Not Voting (2): Galzria, Xxraptorslayer96


Player post counts (without pregame posts):
   110 MiX
   82 SpaceAnemone
   79 jotheonah
   71 Joseph2302
   61 faust
   56 Eevee
   45 raerae
   37 A Drowned Kernel
   27 Maxford
   26 Xxraptorslayer96
   12 LaLight
   11 Galzria

[SpaceAnemone]

Isn't looking at bayesian probabilities useful for trying to figure out this joth situation?

It is. I'll let Space do it cause they loooove to do that, whereas I don't think that's particularly useful in mafia games. I can't think of any time that has been more useful than reads in any game I've played (and read), and it's a great way for scum to scumread someone for free if they're on the correct side of probability and something to argue about if they're on the wrong side.

Is there any reason to think this doesn't happen with reads as well?

Also, maybe it may be worth to be a bit more systematic about this.

What do you mean by "this" in that second sentence, exactly? (As in, what precisely do you want to be more systematic about?).

The problem with being bayesian right here is that we have a very broad prior distribution and very little evidence for anything to drive the inference. I think MiX is: A) wrong to agree with Eevee that it's useful in this particular situation. B) Bating my by saying that it's something I'll "loooove" to do here. C) Simultaneously reserving the right to scumread anyone who might seek to interpret any resulting distributions.

I'll leave MiX to respond to the actual question you asked :-)

[MiX]

Isn't looking at bayesian probabilities useful for trying to figure out this joth situation?

It is. I'll let Space do it cause they loooove to do that, whereas I don't think that's particularly useful in mafia games. I can't think of any time that has been more useful than reads in any game I've played (and read), and it's a great way for scum to scumread someone for free if they're on the correct side of probability and something to argue about if they're on the wrong side.

Is there any reason to think this doesn't happen with reads as well?

Also, maybe it may be worth to be a bit more systematic about this.

What do you mean by "this" in that second sentence, exactly? (As in, what precisely do you want to be more systematic about?).

The problem with being bayesian right here is that we have a very broad prior distribution and very little evidence for anything to drive the inference. I think MiX is: A) wrong to agree with Eevee that it's useful in this particular situation. B) Bating my by saying that it's something I'll "loooove" to do here. C) Simultaneously reserving the right to scumread anyone who might seek to interpret any resulting distributions.

I'll leave MiX to respond to the actual question you asked :-)

I accept being wrong about it (not like I ever think about it), it's not baiting, it's saying what I think of you, and I already had the right to scumread anyone over anything already so...

I don't understand ford's question.

[SpaceAnemone]

I don't understand ford's question.

Essentially, the gist of your post was "Bayesian analysis is a great way to scuread people for free", and my interpretation of Maxford's question is just "can't you scumread people for free using just reads?".

He's welcome to tell me I'm misrepresenting him, but I also think he might be about to be offline for a while, and I don't want the conversation in here stalling any more than necessary :-P

[MiX]

I don't understand ford's question.

Essentially, the gist of your post was "Bayesian analysis is a great way to scuread people for free", and my interpretation of Maxford's question is just "can't you scumread people for free using just reads?".

He's welcome to tell me I'm misrepresenting him, but I also think he might be about to be offline for a while, and I don't want the conversation in here stalling any more than necessary :-P

Okay I'll just answer this, that seems like a good translation.

Using bayesian analysis to scumread people leads a very easy way out for scum, they can easily say "it's more likely, but it didn't happen in this case". You can use this to talk your way into or out of any read you want as scum. With normal reads you have to put in work, like rereading and showing what posts are scummy, or creating narratives to justify your read, which is more alignment-indicative than numbers.

I hope that answered it, it's pretty vague.

[faust]

I don't understand ford's question.

Essentially, the gist of your post was "Bayesian analysis is a great way to scuread people for free", and my interpretation of Maxford's question is just "can't you scumread people for free using just reads?".

He's welcome to tell me I'm misrepresenting him, but I also think he might be about to be offline for a while, and I don't want the conversation in here stalling any more than necessary :-P

Okay I'll just answer this, that seems like a good translation.

Using bayesian analysis to scumread people leads a very easy way out for scum, they can easily say "it's more likely, but it didn't happen in this case". You can use this to talk your way into or out of any read you want as scum. With normal reads you have to put in work, like rereading and showing what posts are scummy, or creating narratives to justify your read, which is more alignment-indicative than numbers.

I hope that answered it, it's pretty vague.

However, most of the time, bayesian analysis is better scumhunting, because it reduces that impact of your biases and often is better evidence.

That said, while there is a point to be made that joth is more likely to be scum because of that stuff, this is also somewhat balanced by the fact that if he's town, then lynching him is probably worse than lynching some other townie.

[Eevee]

I'm really eager to have this game move quicker, but we seem to be really dragging still.

Also a weird game in that there doesn't seem to be wagons forming for lurkers - the people getting the heat today (me, joth, to lesser extent faust and Mix) are among the most active.

Might be that something could be deduced of the composition of the scum team based on this, but I'm sure not getting there.

[Joseph2302]

I'm really eager to have this game move quicker, but we seem to be really dragging still.

Also a weird game in that there doesn't seem to be wagons forming for lurkers - the people getting the heat today (me, joth, to lesser extent faust and Mix) are among the most active.

Might be that something could be deduced of the composition of the scum team based on this, but I'm sure not getting there.

I'll start a wagon on a lurker then
Vote: Galz

[faust]

I'm really eager to have this game move quicker, but we seem to be really dragging still.

Also a weird game in that there doesn't seem to be wagons forming for lurkers - the people getting the heat today (me, joth, to lesser extent faust and Mix) are among the most active.

Might be that something could be deduced of the composition of the scum team based on this, but I'm sure not getting there.

I'll start a wagon on a lurker then
Vote: Galz

Do you have a reason to go for this lurker over the other (LaLight)? I think I would prefer a LaLight wagon.

[Eevee]

For some extra motivation for both of you, I could be persuaded to go for either. Hit me with your best reasons.

[Joseph2302]

I'm really eager to have this game move quicker, but we seem to be really dragging still.

Also a weird game in that there doesn't seem to be wagons forming for lurkers - the people getting the heat today (me, joth, to lesser extent faust and Mix) are among the most active.

Might be that something could be deduced of the composition of the scum team based on this, but I'm sure not getting there.

I'll start a wagon on a lurker then
Vote: Galz

Do you have a reason to go for this lurker over the other (LaLight)? I think I would prefer a LaLight wagon.

This is standard LL availability for the last 12-18 months. It isn't indicative of alignment in my experience.
I haven't played with Galz much, but this does seem an awfully low post count

[faust]

I'm really eager to have this game move quicker, but we seem to be really dragging still.

Also a weird game in that there doesn't seem to be wagons forming for lurkers - the people getting the heat today (me, joth, to lesser extent faust and Mix) are among the most active.

Might be that something could be deduced of the composition of the scum team based on this, but I'm sure not getting there.

I'll start a wagon on a lurker then
Vote: Galz

Do you have a reason to go for this lurker over the other (LaLight)? I think I would prefer a LaLight wagon.

This is standard LL availability for the last 12-18 months. It isn't indicative of alignment in my experience.
I haven't played with Galz much, but this does seem an awfully low post count

It's standard Galz availability for the last 12-18 months.

[Swowl]

Vote Count 2.3:

Eevee (3): faust, MiX, jotheonah
faust (2): Eevee, Maxford
MiX (2): SpaceAnemone, raerae
Joseph2302 (1): A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (1): LaLight
Galzria (1): Joseph

Not Voting (2): Galzria, Xxraptorslayer96


With 12 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Thursday, November 7th at 2:45pm EST. That is in a little under 3 days.

[Maxford]

Space Count

Joseph2302 (1): A Drowned Kernel
faust (2): Eevee, Maxford
MiX (2): SpaceAnemone, raerae
jotheonah (2): Joseph2302, LaLight
Eevee (3): faust, MiX, jotheonah
Not Voting (2): Galzria, Xxraptorslayer96


Player post counts (without pregame posts):
   110 MiX
   82 SpaceAnemone
   79 jotheonah
   71 Joseph2302
   61 faust
   56 Eevee
   45 raerae
   37 A Drowned Kernel
   27 Maxford
   26 Xxraptorslayer96
   12 LaLight
   11 Galzria

Thanks

[Maxford]

I don't understand ford's question.

Essentially, the gist of your post was "Bayesian analysis is a great way to scuread people for free", and my interpretation of Maxford's question is just "can't you scumread people for free using just reads?".

He's welcome to tell me I'm misrepresenting him, but I also think he might be about to be offline for a while, and I don't want the conversation in here stalling any more than necessary :-P

yes, that was my original question, sorry if it wasn't clear

[Swowl]

DST Clarification - Deadline is "current" 2:45pm EST on Thursday. As in - it is currently 6:20pm EST on Monday, and when forum time reads 2:45pm on Thursday, that is deadline.
Normally, that would be messing with DL by an hour of play, but as we already have extended the Day by 1 IRL Day, that is how it is working

[SpaceAnemone]

yes, that was my original question, sorry if it wasn't clear

I thought it made sense :-)

What did you think of MiX's answer?

[SpaceAnemone]

Request prod on Galz

As far as I can see, he hasn't yet checked in this game-day, which has been running for several IRL-days now.

[SpaceAnemone]

Also a weird game in that there doesn't seem to be wagons forming for lurkers - the people getting the heat today (me, joth, to lesser extent faust and Mix) are among the most active.

Might be that something could be deduced of the composition of the scum team based on this, but I'm sure not getting there.

I think it's quite common for active people to draw more attention to themselves. If that were not the case, we wouldn't expect scum to fare better or incriminate themselves less by lurking.

I do think it's a mildly scummy change in your tune to start fishing for a lurker lynch now rather than engaging more in helping hunt scum amongst the actually-present players. That is, unless you're implying that the whole scumteam is hiding amongst the low-availability, low-posting-rate people.

[Eevee]

It’s not a change in tune. I’m trying to find scum, wherever they hide. I still believe we need to aim for hitting no scum above all else. I would hope we can do better than to essentially shoot blindly at someone who has hardly posted.

I don’t think trying to pressure the lurkers to also contribute hinders my ability to try to figure out the more active players in any way.

[SpaceAnemone]

I still believe we need to aim for hitting no scum above all else.

Aha, scumslip! :-P

I don’t think trying to pressure the lurkers to also contribute hinders my ability to try to figure out the more active players in any way.

I respect that you're not currently voting for a lurker, but your post clearly incited Joseph to vote for one, and I don't feel like that was entirely accidental on your part.

[Galzria]

Sorry, I started to post shortly after D2 began and then got distracted by other real life things. When I came back to it, not only was my train of thought lost, the whole post was a bit moot as stuff had happened. Anyway, sorry.

-----

Given 3 scum plus 1 traitor, looking for 4 scum:

There’s likely at least 1 scum between {Faust, Joseph}, else the first 4 people on Shraeye were all town (not impossible, but more unlikely than likely).

If both {Faust, Joseph} are town, it’s almost guaranteed there’s at least 1 scum on Joth, else the scum team all crashed onto Shraeye to prevent Joth’s lynch: {Joth, Maxford, MiX, Eevee} - something I don’t believe happens.

Equally unlikely is that there’s 0 scum on Shraeye, and all 4 were on Joth: {Space, LaLight, Raerae, Raptor}. Same as above, I just don’t believe this happens.

If we accept Joth as town for now (which, with an IC in play we should), then it definitely increases the likelihood of finding scum in {faust, Joseph}, else the first 5 on Shraeye were town (and for the scum between {Maxford, MiX, Eevee}, lynching between Shraeye/Joth wouldn’t have mattered).

If Joth is scum, then it’s likely there’s, what, at most 2 scum on his wagon? 1? Definitely scum would’ve been keen to avoid his lynch. Based on the way MiX switched so openly between Joth & Shraeye EoD, I don’t see it super likely that {Joth, MiX} are partners. This would leave at least 1, but more likely 2, scum amongst {Eevee, Maxford, Joseph, Faust}. It would also leave at most 1 scum amongst {Space, LaLight, Space, Raptor} - but honestly if Joth is scum then Raptor isn’t (vote 6 on Joth, forced the claim).

So, my thoughts right now based on VCA from D1 are:

Assuming Joth to be town for now:
1 scum {Faust, Joseph}
1-2 scum {Maxford, MiX, Eevee}
1-2 scum {Space, LaLight, Raerae, Raptor}

Assuming Joth is scum:
1 scum {Joth}
1-2 scum {Faust, Joseph}
1-2 scum {Maxford, Eevee}
0-1 scum {Space, LaLight, Raerae}

ISO’ing the voting history of the subgroup {Faust, Joseph}:

Faust voted for: ADK, Joth, Raptor, Shraeye
Joseph voted for: Space, WCD, Joth, Raerae, MiX, Shraeye

Both voted for both Shraeye & Joth at some point. When Joseph voted Joth, it put Joth at 3 votes, and WCD down to 0. When Faust voted Joth, it also put Joth at 3 votes, but it brought ADK down from 4 to 3 - removing pressure from a now known town. That vote switch, regardless of Joth’s alignment, is slightly more townie than Joseph’s vote switch.

I’ll reread both of them in ISO outside of VCA later tonight. I’m pretty much work-free from now until deadline (90 minutes tomorrow, that’s it) - so I feel confident I can get through all my VCA and reads analysis before deadline.

I do think I would primarily like to lynch between {Faust, Joseph} today - however I think we’re nearly as likely to find scum in the {Maxford, MiX, Eevee} grouping, so I’ll definitely research that group too. I’m much less confident in the {Space, LaLight, Raerae, Raptor} group, although I do know who I gut read as scum there.

[jotheonah]

Welcome to the game Galzria! That post was fantastic.

Drunk AMA.

[Galzria]

Welcome to the game Galzria! That post was fantastic.

Drunk AMA.

I’m working at becoming drunk right now, but alas it’s a slow process.

DAMA?
We’ll start easy: Are you scum?
If “No” above: Why didn’t scum kill you last night?
What do you think of the people {Joseph, LaLight} that have voted for you today, following your lack-of-death last night?

[faust]

There’s likely at least 1 scum between {Faust, Joseph}, else the first 4 people on Shraeye were all town (not impossible, but more unlikely than likely).

This sort of analysis is problematic. Like, there is no particular reason that I see why scum would be on the shraeye wagon, and early on the shraeye wagon. Sure, it's unlikely that a group of 4 contains no scum. But we already know that 2 of them are town. In the end it's just the chance that there's 1 scum in a group of 2, unless there is some compelling reason that i am missing for whyy scum is likely to be early on the shraeye wagon.

[Galzria]

There’s likely at least 1 scum between {Faust, Joseph}, else the first 4 people on Shraeye were all town (not impossible, but more unlikely than likely).

This sort of analysis is problematic. Like, there is no particular reason that I see why scum would be on the shraeye wagon, and early on the shraeye wagon. Sure, it's unlikely that a group of 4 contains no scum. But we already know that 2 of them are town. In the end it's just the chance that there's 1 scum in a group of 2, unless there is some compelling reason that i am missing for whyy scum is likely to be early on the shraeye wagon.

Thing is, you and I just approach things differently in general. Sure, what you say is as true as anything. But what I’m arguing is that practically speaking, that sort of thing just generally doesn’t happen. Yes, there’s no reason it can’t, it just doesn’t all that often.

[jotheonah]

DAMA?
We’ll start easy: Are you scum?
If “No” above: Why didn’t scum kill you last night?
What do you think of the people {Joseph, LaLight} that have voted for you today, following your lack-of-death last night?

Nope!

I think they either thought they could get me lynched or they figured the X in my X-shot was 1. A lesser possibility is that my WIFOM worked and they thought I could self-target, but probably in that case they just asked the mod and the mod told them I can't.

Joseph and Eevee are my top 2 scumspects. LaLight I could go either way on. Voting for me isn't scummy in and of itself though, can't blame people for that.

[Joseph2302]

DST Clarification - Deadline is "current" 2:45pm EST on Thursday. As in - it is currently 6:20pm EST on Monday, and when forum time reads 2:45pm on Thursday, that is deadline.
Normally, that would be messing with DL by an hour of play, but as we already have extended the Day by 1 IRL Day, that is how it is working

For clarification, that means its 7:45pm UK time

[Joseph2302]

There’s likely at least 1 scum between {Faust, Joseph}, else the first 4 people on Shraeye were all town (not impossible, but more unlikely than likely).

This sort of analysis is problematic. Like, there is no particular reason that I see why scum would be on the shraeye wagon, and early on the shraeye wagon. Sure, it's unlikely that a group of 4 contains no scum. But we already know that 2 of them are town. In the end it's just the chance that there's 1 scum in a group of 2, unless there is some compelling reason that i am missing for whyy scum is likely to be early on the shraeye wagon.

Thing is, you and I just approach things differently in general. Sure, what you say is as true as anything. But what I’m arguing is that practically speaking, that sort of thing just generally doesn’t happen. Yes, there’s no reason it can’t, it just doesn’t all that often.

Problem is that I don't agree that one of myself or faust is scum. Looking at the game so far, I don't think faust is scummy. And I'm town

Playing this game on laws of averages and percentages is futile

[SpaceAnemone]

There’s likely at least 1 scum between {Faust, Joseph}, else the first 4 people on Shraeye were all town (not impossible, but more unlikely than likely).

This sort of analysis is problematic. Like, there is no particular reason that I see why scum would be on the shraeye wagon, and early on the shraeye wagon. Sure, it's unlikely that a group of 4 contains no scum. But we already know that 2 of them are town. In the end it's just the chance that there's 1 scum in a group of 2, unless there is some compelling reason that i am missing for whyy scum is likely to be early on the shraeye wagon.

Thing is, you and I just approach things differently in general. Sure, what you say is as true as anything. But what I’m arguing is that practically speaking, that sort of thing just generally doesn’t happen. Yes, there’s no reason it can’t, it just doesn’t all that often.

How do you feel the typical wagon distribution will have changed given that three of the four of them (presumably?) didn't know the identity of the forth?

That issue dropped my confidence in my own wagon analysis coming into D2. I think the biggest driving factor causing the typical dispersal pattern of scums between wagons is that generally they don't want to be seen to be acting as a team... so if several of them don't know who not to team up with, then I think the dynamics might not look the same.

PPE 1

[MiX]

Galzria doing work, I like it. That post's way too big for me to try to quote, so I'm going to be lazy.

Most of my arguments will be using this VC (1):

jotheonah (4): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, MiX
shraeye (3): ADK, faust, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (2): Eevee, jotheonah
Eevee (1): raerae
MiX (1): WestCoastDidds
faust (1): shraeye
Not voting (1): Maxford, Raptor

Which is right before the shraeye wagon exploded, and (2)

jotheonah (4): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight
shraeye (3): ADK, faust, Joseph2302, MiX, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford
Joseph2302 (2): Eevee
Eevee (1): raerae
faust (1): shraeye
Not voting (1): Raptor

Which is after. What happens after is joth's claim and all that which is all useful is joth's scum but otherwise it's null.

"There’s likely at least 1 scum between {Faust, Joseph}, else the first 4 people on Shraeye were all town (not impossible, but more unlikely than likely)."

Looking at (1), I think it's reasonable to think that scum could've been avoiding the shraeye wagon (for whatever reason) by spreading out on joth and Joseph. This makes more sense if both joth and Joseph are town, so I do agree that if one of joth/Joseph is scum there's most likely scum in faust/Joseph.

"Equally unlikely is that there’s 0 scum on Shraeye, and all 4 were on Joth: {Space, LaLight, Raerae, Raptor}. Same as above, I just don’t believe this happens."

This is impossible, yeah. Not with the quantity of scum we have this game.


The rest of Galzria's post is hard to answer, but basically I disagree on the parts that go against what I'm saying above and agree with the rest, which means my vote on Eevee seems well placed.

I'll do some of my own analysis hopefully later today, but probably tomorrow.

[SpaceAnemone]

There’s likely at least 1 scum between {Faust, Joseph}, else the first 4 people on Shraeye were all town (not impossible, but more unlikely than likely).

The 4th person to vote Shraeye was actually MiX, at #484. Didds joined at #492, and MiX jumped over to Joth at #500, leaving Didds in the 4th wagon position.

I think the game was big enough in D1 that four-towns-on-town is not too unlikely a wagon to have organically. I've found at least one case of five-towns-on-town in the game histories.. though I also used the fact that five towns on a townie is unlikely to work out that faust was scum once upon a time.

If both {Faust, Joseph} are town, it’s almost guaranteed there’s at least 1 scum on Joth, else the scum team all crashed onto Shraeye to prevent Joth’s lynch: {Joth, Maxford, MiX, Eevee} - something I don’t believe happens.

This is true, but the conclusion I'd draw from the same wagon dynamics is that if {faust,Joseph} are both town, there's a much-increased chance of sucm in {Joth,Maxford}. I already think your analysis is under-counting the scumminess of MiX. However, we have to remember that this bit of reasoning is founded on assuming faust and Joseph are both townie, which I think is not something we can just assume without better evidence or more flips further down the line.

Equally unlikely is that there’s 0 scum on Shraeye, and all 4 were on Joth: {Space, LaLight, Raerae, Raptor}. Same as above, I just don’t believe this happens.

I can guarantee that the collection there is not the scum team!

If we accept Joth as town for now (which, with an IC in play we should), then it definitely increases the likelihood of finding scum in {faust, Joseph}

You're making a big error here, I think! The act of "accepting Joth as town" should not include ignoring any evidence that he may be scum. I think that Joth looks scummy, and as such, I'm not going to put all my trust into conclusions that follow from fixing my thinking into a Joth=town mode and not considering alternatives. Basically, I'm willing to consider letting Joth not be the lynch, but I'm not willing to say that because he's not the lynch, faust and Joseph need to be considered scummier than evidence might otherwise suggest.

If Joth is scum, then it’s likely there’s, what, at most 2 scum on his wagon? 1? Definitely scum would’ve been keen to avoid his lynch. Based on the way MiX switched so openly between Joth & Shraeye EoD, I don’t see it super likely that {Joth, MiX} are partners. This would leave at least 1, but more likely 2, scum amongst {Eevee, Maxford, Joseph, Faust}. It would also leave at most 1 scum amongst {Space, LaLight, Space, Raptor} - but honestly if Joth is scum then Raptor isn’t (vote 6 on Joth, forced the claim).

This is the part where the wagon analysis is on shakiest ground, because prescribing an expected number of scum on a wagon in a game where some scum may/probably not know the identity of another is a bit questionable... you're relying purely on "average behaviour", whereas usually we have active aware scum behaviour driving some of their dispersal across wagons.

Also, there's too much Space and not enough Raerae in one of the people sets there :-P

Finally, you're really underselling the scum!MiX possibility. By grouping him with Joth and then going "but naah" (with no wagon evidence whatsoever), and then not grouping him in the "people who voted Shraeye" bucket, you're definitely avoiding considering him as any sort of candidate in a way I think is completely unjustified.

PPE 1: I'm not the only one who wants to pick over Galz's analysis!

[SpaceAnemone]

And to add my own wagon-gazing, lest people get too swayed by Galz's, which obviously considers himself town, here's the Joth wagon at the end of D1:

jotheonah (4): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae

It's likely that either Joth himself is scum, or at least one person voting for him is scum, because otherwise all four scum ended up on Shraeye (because at the end, Shraeye was the only player not on either main wagon).

That means at least one scum in {Joth, Galz, me, LL, Raerae}, with the greatest suspicion for me, in a purely subjective sense, being on {Joth,Galz}.

[MiX]

Your analysis is better than mine Space. I feel inferior

I disagree on "all town wagon isn't unlikely because it's a big game" because it isn't really a big game and there's more scum than usual. Again, the rest of your first post is hard to answer, but I mostly agree with you. I think.

And to add my own wagon-gazing, lest people get too swayed by Galz's, which obviously considers himself town, here's the Joth wagon at the end of D1:

jotheonah (4): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae

It's likely that either Joth himself is scum, or at least one person voting for him is scum, because otherwise all four scum ended up on Shraeye (because at the end, Shraeye was the only player not on either main wagon).

That means at least one scum in {Joth, Galz, me, LL, Raerae}, with the greatest suspicion for me, in a purely subjective sense, being on {Joth,Galz}.

This is pretty important actually. I would also say there's 1 scum in the wagon regardless of joth's alignment, so a good pool is {Space, LL, raerae, Galz}.

[faust]

There’s likely at least 1 scum between {Faust, Joseph}, else the first 4 people on Shraeye were all town (not impossible, but more unlikely than likely).

This sort of analysis is problematic. Like, there is no particular reason that I see why scum would be on the shraeye wagon, and early on the shraeye wagon. Sure, it's unlikely that a group of 4 contains no scum. But we already know that 2 of them are town. In the end it's just the chance that there's 1 scum in a group of 2, unless there is some compelling reason that i am missing for whyy scum is likely to be early on the shraeye wagon.

Thing is, you and I just approach things differently in general. Sure, what you say is as true as anything. But what I’m arguing is that practically speaking, that sort of thing just generally doesn’t happen. Yes, there’s no reason it can’t, it just doesn’t all that often.

But then your argument rests solely on a flawed intuition of how probability works. Which is fine, all humans have that, but you should be able to recognize it.

[Joseph2302]

And to add my own wagon-gazing, lest people get too swayed by Galz's, which obviously considers himself town, here's the Joth wagon at the end of D1:

jotheonah (4): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae

It's likely that either Joth himself is scum, or at least one person voting for him is scum, because otherwise all four scum ended up on Shraeye (because at the end, Shraeye was the only player not on either main wagon).

That means at least one scum in {Joth, Galz, me, LL, Raerae}, with the greatest suspicion for me, in a purely subjective sense, being on {Joth,Galz}.

Agree with this, glad someone articulated it better than I was doing. Out of those 5, I think joth and Galz are scummiest

[faust]

Vote: LaLight

[raerae]

I can't buy so hard into VCA, it's just so presumptive. Everybody knows somebody sometime is going to do a VCA so why do we believe so heartily that scum wouldn't take that into consideration when they vote? We say there's no possible way a wagon is all town but we've all seen it. We say scum would want to spread themselves out but if they know that's the assumption why do we think they wouldn't clump up? It's just so much less of a science than it's presented to be.

All that to say I'd like everybody to take another look at MiX. He's been much more reactive than I expect him to be, asking Space to do their math thing, waiting for a VCA before doing one himself even though he's mentioned it a few times, telling people his opinions on their reads but not really offering that information unprompted. Feels much more cautious than the town!MiX I know.

[MiX]

I can't buy so hard into VCA, it's just so presumptive. Everybody knows somebody sometime is going to do a VCA so why do we believe so heartily that scum wouldn't take that into consideration when they vote? We say there's no possible way a wagon is all town but we've all seen it. We say scum would want to spread themselves out but if they know that's the assumption why do we think they wouldn't clump up? It's just so much less of a science than it's presented to be.

Voting for town can be necessary to push their lynch, so scum has a great incentive to do so. Scum need to think about VCA AND the personal interactions that are happening currently: they can't do everything, they have to stick to their metas. Scum don't clump because when one flips the interactions surrounding the clump will most likely look scummy, and scum don't like to interact with scum too much (doesn't push mislynches). For these reasons VCAs are important to keep scum surrounded by all factors of their play, which restricts what they can do.

No one listens to me about theory so this can't hurt.

All that to say I'd like everybody to take another look at MiX. He's been much more reactive than I expect him to be, asking Space to do their math thing, waiting for a VCA before doing one himself even though he's mentioned it a few times, telling people his opinions on their reads but not really offering that information unprompted. Feels much more cautious than the town!MiX I know.

I haven't done a VCA yet, I've been allocating time to other things. This means I'm not rereading the thread (or even just day 2) which means I basically answer to whatever people are saying when I do have time.

[SpaceAnemone]

All that to say I'd like everybody to take another look at MiX. He's been much more reactive than I expect him to be, asking Space to do their math thing, waiting for a VCA before doing one himself even though he's mentioned it a few times, telling people his opinions on their reads but not really offering that information unprompted. Feels much more cautious than the town!MiX I know.

I haven't done a VCA yet, I've been allocating time to other things. This means I'm not rereading the thread (or even just day 2) which means I basically answer to whatever people are saying when I do have time.

Are you denying that your post at #810 was in any way a VCA? Note that you implicitly claimed it as "your analysis" at #813. Maaaybe you were referring to it as an analysis of Galz's VCA, but to be fair, your analysis posted distinct vote counts (which mine did not), so I think trying to deny having done a VCA is plain weird.

Actually, you're starting out with a contrary (and incorrect) statement, but then essentially agreeing with what Raerae said about you. Given that Raerae characterised your behaviour as not-town!MiX, I feel confused about you basically agreeing with her without even a mention of why it's not scummy of you to be doing that.

Related question: What have you actually done to help us find scum today?

[MiX]

All that to say I'd like everybody to take another look at MiX. He's been much more reactive than I expect him to be, asking Space to do their math thing, waiting for a VCA before doing one himself even though he's mentioned it a few times, telling people his opinions on their reads but not really offering that information unprompted. Feels much more cautious than the town!MiX I know.

I haven't done a VCA yet, I've been allocating time to other things. This means I'm not rereading the thread (or even just day 2) which means I basically answer to whatever people are saying when I do have time.

Are you denying that your post at #810 was in any way a VCA? Note that you implicitly claimed it as "your analysis" at #813. Maaaybe you were referring to it as an analysis of Galz's VCA, but to be fair, your analysis posted distinct vote counts (which mine did not), so I think trying to deny having done a VCA is plain weird.

Actually, you're starting out with a contrary (and incorrect) statement, but then essentially agreeing with what Raerae said about you. Given that Raerae characterised your behaviour as not-town!MiX, I feel confused about you basically agreeing with her without even a mention of why it's not scummy of you to be doing that.

Related question: What have you actually done to help us find scum today?

VCAs are bigger, like Galzria's post. They imply a more thorough analysis of vote counts and they're more complete than what I've done. At least that's who I think about them.

Raerae's right in that I haven't done a lot of proactive things, but that's due to time constraints (not that I'm too busy, just been doing other stuff...which I suppose is being busy). Why is it not scummy? Because I'm town? I can see scum!me do these things...fortunately I have more posts than this D2, which is pretty bad, yes.

For today I've interacted with you, Eevee and that's about it. It's not a great day. I'll get to a grand VCA today, I promise.

[SpaceAnemone]

For today I've interacted with you, Eevee and that's about it. It's not a great day. I'll get to a grand VCA today, I promise.

Just for the record, I'm not specifically asking you to post a "grand VCA". I find it interesting to see what other people make of VCAs (e.g. how I think Galz was spinning his or making omissions), but the actual analysis itself is somewhat mechanical, so reproducing it may not be the optimal use of your time, unless you feel the need to keep me and Galz in check.

Weren't you saying quite recently that you didn't think VCAs and probabilistic analysis were all that useful? Or were you limiting that criticism to only the analysis based on the likelihood of various role combinations existing in a game together?

Perhaps it would be most interesting if you'd consider interacting with other players some more.

[MiX]

For today I've interacted with you, Eevee and that's about it. It's not a great day. I'll get to a grand VCA today, I promise.

Just for the record, I'm not specifically asking you to post a "grand VCA". I find it interesting to see what other people make of VCAs (e.g. how I think Galz was spinning his or making omissions), but the actual analysis itself is somewhat mechanical, so reproducing it may not be the optimal use of your time, unless you feel the need to keep me and Galz in check.

Weren't you saying quite recently that you didn't think VCAs and probabilistic analysis were all that useful? Or were you limiting that criticism to only the analysis based on the likelihood of various role combinations existing in a game together?

Perhaps it would be most interesting if you'd consider interacting with other players some more.

Oh but I like making VCAs! They're way more fun than rereading someone and take less time and energy. I'm not doing it for you, I'm doing it for me and town

As you said, calculating probabilities of role shenanigans in closed setups is futile. But VCAs are better than that, because you can actually put it subjectivity that relies on what others say and your read on them, as opposed to mindreading the mod, which doesn't create interactions with others.

You're probably right that I should reread, which I will, after I post my VCA.

[MiX]

VCA time! Because I'm not lazy anymore, dammit. Wall post incoming!

First major wagons: height of ADK/joth.

ADK (4): faust, raerae, jotheonah, shraeye
jotheonah (4): LaLight, Eevee, Joseph2302, MiX
shraeye (1): ADK
Xxraptorslayer96 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (1): WestCoastDidds
Galzria (1): Xxraptorslayer96
SpaceAnemone (1): Galzria
Not voting (1): Maxford

This isn't much, but gives us (faust, raerae, joth) for ADK, (LL, Eevee, Joseph, MiX) for joth and (Space, Raptor, Galzria, Maxford) outside wagons for pools. This is not very useful, but I think there's at least 2 scum on the wagons. It's a very early vote count, so not a lot to draw from. Hopefully this eliminates some teams.

Then a lot of votes later comes this, which is the Joseph/joth height, featuring shraeye (and me I guess):

jotheonah (5): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, shraeye, MiX
Joseph2302 (3): Eevee, Xxraptorslayer96, jotheonah
shraeye (2): ADK, faust
MiX (2): Joseph2302, Didds
Eevee (1): raerae
SpaceAnemone (1): Maxford

As before, pools are (Galzria, Space, LL, MiX) for joth, (Eevee, Raptor, joth) for Joseph and (faust, Joseph, raerae, maxford) otherwise, but here we can get much more: regardless of joth's alignment, I'm pretty sure there's at least 1 scum in his wagon. Given how it's stayed throught the day, scum could've easily jumped on it to either push or bus. Now, this is all fine if he's scum, but if he's town scum could've jumped in, get town to follow and jump out, so let's see who voted for joth (meaningfully) before this: Joseph and faust. It also doesn't really make much sense for all scum to be on the joth wagon regardless of Joseph's alignment, because bussing exists and is something scum does (and they don't want to all vote on a traitor).

And then one of the vote counts I already posted, but the important one: the big shraeye wagon.

jotheonah (3): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight
shraeye (7): ADK, faust, Joseph2302, MiX, Didds, joth, Maxford
Joseph2302 (1): Eevee
Eevee (1): raerae
faust (1): shraeye
Not voting (1): Raptor

I've said this before, but there's still scum in (faust, Joseph, MiX, joth, Maxford). If joth's scum there's most likely at least 1 more scum here, so I would say there's scum in (faust, Joseph, MiX, Maxford). There being 3 scum while joth's town also seems like pointless clump, so I'm cutting that out.

So let's sum up, Galzria style:

2-4 scum in (faust, raerae, joth, LL, Eevee, Joseph, MiX)

0-2 scum in (Space, Raptor, Galzria, Maxford)

and

  joth is scum:

  1-2 scum in (Galzria, Space, LL, MiX)

  1-2 scum in (Eevee, Raptor, faust, Joseph, raerae, maxford)

  or joth is town:

  1-3 scum in (Galzria, Space, LL, MiX, Joseph, faust)

  1-3 scum in (Eevee, Raptor, joth, raerae, maxford)

and

1-3 scum in (faust, Joseph, MiX, joth, Maxford)

1-3 scum in (Galzria, Space, LL, Eevee, raerae, Raptor)

and

1-2 scum in (faust, Joseph, MiX, Maxford)

2-3 scum in (Galzria, Space, LL, Eevee, raerae, Raptor, joth)

I feel extremely compelled to write what scumteams make this work, but they're too many.

I would definitely look into (faust, raerae, joth, LL, Eevee, Joseph, MiX) for today: all the hot wagons are here, and I think they're more useful than outside-of-early-wagon lynches given we know one of the early wagons was on the IC. From these, I would look into joth's partners to see if he could ever be scum: from my perspective a very likely one is LL just from the VCA, but also from what I remember of them voting joth and shraeye. Good lynches seem to be faust, Eevee, Joseph and me if you REALLY want to look into that, I'll admit I probably look scummy if joth's town.

This will be more useful once I get a good reread of the whole game done. I promise (and this is my way of actually getting things done) to do it in D2, but it might be too close to deadline, so I apologize in advance if that's what happens.

[faust]

This is not very useful, but I think there's at least 2 scum on the wagons

Why?

I've said this before, but there's still scum in (faust, Joseph, MiX, joth, Maxford).

Well, you would know.

If joth's scum there's most likely at least 1 more scum here, so I would say there's scum in (faust, Joseph, MiX, Maxford). There being 3 scum while joth's town also seems like pointless clump, so I'm cutting that out.

All it takes is 2 non-Traitor scum unwittingly joining the wagon with a Traitor on it. It's really weird to rule that out.

[MiX]

This is not very useful, but I think there's at least 2 scum on the wagons

Why?

If scum were lurking, the others would keep up the pace. I've never seen a game where all scum are dorment.

I've said this before, but there's still scum in (faust, Joseph, MiX, joth, Maxford).

Well, you would know.

Do you think the shraeye wagon appeared solely due to town? I don't.

If joth's scum there's most likely at least 1 more scum here, so I would say there's scum in (faust, Joseph, MiX, Maxford). There being 3 scum while joth's town also seems like pointless clump, so I'm cutting that out.

All it takes is 2 non-Traitor scum unwittingly joining the wagon with a Traitor on it. It's really weird to rule that out.

You're probably right. Definitely the thing I'm less sure about.

[jotheonah]

I've said this before, but there's still scum in (faust, Joseph, MiX, joth, Maxford).

If this is true, my money's on Joseph. But as townie as everyone is finding Maxford, he is a bit of an unknown. We should consider that he could be a bit of a sleeper.

faust and MiX I am townreading pretty hard, for better or for worse.

[faust]

This is not very useful, but I think there's at least 2 scum on the wagons

Why?

If scum were lurking, the others would keep up the pace. I've never seen a game where all scum are dorment.

This argument to me holds about as much value as "I've never seen a game where all scum had the same number of letters in their username, therefore I'm excluding Galzria/LaLight/Maxford". Whether someone is lurking has little bearing on their alignment, and scum doesn't suddenly become more active just because their partners are silent.

Do you think the shraeye wagon appeared solely due to town? I don't.

I currently have no reason to think that it is scummier to be on the shraeye wagon than not to be. Of course any group of 5 players has a high chance of having a scum in it.

[Swowl]

Vote Count 2.4:

Eevee (2): MiX, jotheonah
faust (2): Eevee, Maxford
MiX (2): SpaceAnemone, raerae
Joseph2302 (1): A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (1): LaLight
Galzria (1): Joseph
LaLight (1): faust

Not Voting (2): Galzria, Xxraptorslayer96


With 12 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Thursday, November 7th at 2:45pm EST. That is in under 48 hours!

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Alright, as good of time as any to say this at this point. I cop’d MIX last night and that are confirmed not numerically aligned. I am 1 shot cop. I didn’t want to come out with this right when the day opened to try and get Mix to share as much of there scum opinion as possible. I’m still catching up on reading from the past few hours but I decided to do it now so we have some time to discuss things before the day ends. Vote: Mix

Here is my current reads list as well.

1.Faust - Null, seems to be playing like them self, need to reread though.
2. WCD - Vanilla Townie, killed Night 1
3. Mix - I have confirmed as not numerically aligned
4. Galzria - null, lurking pretty hard into day two (and that’s coming from me). Although I know has some IRL things going on.  His post in the last day helped his towieness
5. ADK - Confirmed town.
6. XXRaptorSlayer96 - 1 shot cop.
7. Joth - decent chance that he’s lying  about his claim but I think it’s better to address tomorrow if he’s still alive. Mix seemed to protect at end D1 from lynch.
8. Joseph - scummier side it Null
9. RaeRae - scummy, I need to reread more though. But I have a strong feeling. 
10. Shraeye - Vanilla Townie; Lynched Day 1
11. LaLight - same as Galzy. Null but lurking hard. If you are town then please contribute more. I understand IRL reasons.
12. Maxford - Null, leaning towards town. Gets the newbie pass for now.
13. Space - town. I like how much they bus Mix. And over all helpful
14. Eevee - Null, I want to get a town read but Im not sure.

[MiX]

Vote: Raptor, I'm not a miller.

I will claim if need be but it shouldn't be useful here.

Should we lynch in conflict?

[Eevee]

Whee!! That's pretty great.

Of course interested in what Mix has to say, but happy to Vote: Mix while I wait.

[Eevee]

This claim feels very truthful - Raptor wasn't in any danger of getting lynched, why would he welcome this kind of a 1-1 trade as scum?

Also the way he went about this felt towny - it's perfect we have a full day of Mix's posting to analyze now if (when from townRaptor's POV) he flips scum.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

This claim feels very truthful - Raptor wasn't in any danger of getting lynched, why would he welcome this kind of a 1-1 trade as scum?

Also the way he went about this felt towny - it's perfect we have a full day of Mix's posting to analyze now if (when from townRaptor's POV) he flips scum.

Thanks! I thought I did a good job   

[MiX]

Well that narrows it down.

2-3 scum in (faust, raerae, joth, LL, Eevee, Joseph)

0-1 scum in (Space, Galzria, Maxford)

and

  joth is scum:

  1-2 scum in (Galzria, Space, LL)

  0-1 scum in (Eevee, faust, Joseph, raerae, maxford)

  or joth is town:

  1-3 scum in (Galzria, Space, LL, Joseph, faust)

  0-2 scum in (Eevee, joth, raerae, maxford)

and

1-3 scum in (faust, Joseph, joth, Maxford)

0-2 scum in (Galzria, Space, LL, Eevee, raerae)

and

1-2 scum in (faust, Joseph, Maxford)

1-2 scum in (Galzria, Space, LL, Eevee, raerae, joth)

This claim feels very truthful - Raptor wasn't in any danger of getting lynched, why would he welcome this kind of a 1-1 trade as scum?

Also the way he went about this felt towny - it's perfect we have a full day of Mix's posting to analyze now if (when from townRaptor's POV) he flips scum.

You're most likely scum. Or he thinks I'm a PR. One thing's for sure: he doesn't think I'm his traitor, which is interesting.

[Eevee]

I'm most likely scum or Raptor is?

[MiX]

If MiX gets lynched tomorrow, I'm going to flip tables.  Don't do it.

The no one joining me on MiX convinced me he's town

Well this is worth a decent amount of town cred for Mix, at least for me.

This makes no sense if you had that cop result. Gimme a break.

I've been meaning to reread faust all night but I never got around to it in case I died in the night.

Vote: faust because shraeye is dead and ADK is IC. I'll get to rereading faust most likely tomorrow, hopefully my hunch is right.

Please share your finding on Faust when you reread. I’m curious what you think of him.

This does I'll give you that.


Oh that's all. You're pretty lurky.

I'm most likely scum or Raptor is?

You, Raptor's 100% scum.

[Eevee]

If MiX gets lynched tomorrow, I'm going to flip tables.  Don't do it.

The no one joining me on MiX convinced me he's town

Well this is worth a decent amount of town cred for Mix, at least for me.

How do you explain this, Raptor?

[Xxraptorslayer96]

If MiX gets lynched tomorrow, I'm going to flip tables.  Don't do it.

The no one joining me on MiX convinced me he's town

I was just trying to befriend him, I wanted Mix to feel comfortable playing recklessly. 
Well this is worth a decent amount of town cred for Mix, at least for me.

How do you explain this, Raptor?

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Quote fail:

I wanted to befriend him, I wanted Mix to be comfortable to play recklessly.

[MiX]

I think I can get behind a Joth vote

@everyone, does Joth have a meta? I'm just trying to figure out his play style.

@joth would you consider yourself a veteran player? Estimate on how many games you have played?

This plus the vote makes me believe joth is town...which means I made a pretty big mistake pushing him. It happens, I suppose.

PPE: A true cop would push their scum target, wouldn't you think? That way you don't have to claim, you get pressure on me, it's much better than...what, "befriending" me or whatever? And if you get NK'd I get lynched on the spot. Much better than this 50/50 now isn't it?

[MiX]

Damn I lost some of my raptor reread, luckily I can just rewrite it.

Vote: raerae

Well, that's fun! Care to expand?

It's D1, let's just see what happens

Would it kill you to tone down your D1-yoloism? It's getting on my nerves.

"yoloism" maybe my new favorite word, with that said Vote: Joseph

Raptor jumps early on the Joseph wagon. This doesn't say much, but he's really close to Eevee. I don't think this makes sense if both Eevee and Joseph are scum, but otherwise I can see it happen.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

I think I can get behind a Joth vote

@everyone, does Joth have a meta? I'm just trying to figure out his play style.

@joth would you consider yourself a veteran player? Estimate on how many games you have played?

This plus the vote makes me believe joth is town...which means I made a pretty big mistake pushing him. It happens, I suppose.

PPE: A true cop would push their scum target, wouldn't you think? That way you don't have to claim, you get pressure on me, it's much better than...what, "befriending" me or whatever? And if you get NK'd I get lynched on the spot. Much better than this 50/50 now isn't it?

I like that you’re not going down easy. Also I like the way I played it, when you get lynched It will Ic me, or if you and your scum mates so how turn it on me and then I flip 1-shot, you and the rest of my wagon will be the auto lynch pool.

[MiX]

I think I can get behind a Joth vote

@everyone, does Joth have a meta? I'm just trying to figure out his play style.

@joth would you consider yourself a veteran player? Estimate on how many games you have played?

This plus the vote makes me believe joth is town...which means I made a pretty big mistake pushing him. It happens, I suppose.

PPE: A true cop would push their scum target, wouldn't you think? That way you don't have to claim, you get pressure on me, it's much better than...what, "befriending" me or whatever? And if you get NK'd I get lynched on the spot. Much better than this 50/50 now isn't it?

I like that you’re not going down easy. Also I like the way I played it, when you get lynched It will Ic me, or if you and your scum mates so how turn it on me and then I flip 1-shot, you and the rest of my wagon will be the auto lynch pool.

Hey man, same but reversed. I'll see you in hell, which in this case is speccy.

Except scum will bus, obviously, so what you're saying doesn't even make sense.

[faust]

Vote: MiX

[faust]

This claim feels very truthful - Raptor wasn't in any danger of getting lynched, why would he welcome this kind of a 1-1 trade as scum?

A Traitor actually wants to play more recklessly than normal scum. But I kind of doubt that Traitor!Raptor would pull this off.

[Joseph2302]

Vote: MiX
This claim doesn't seem like something scum would just announce on a whim halfway through the day

[Xxraptorslayer96]

I think that that would make Mix L-1??

[MiX]

Vote: MiX

See ya.

[raerae]

This is beautiful.

Raptor (which autocorrects to Realtor and I'm not sad about), were your reads based on your impressions or your impressions+MiX's interactions? Anything else you want to share since you're a likely target for the NK now?

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Vote: MiX

See ya.

GG

[Eevee]

This is just the break we needed!

[Xxraptorslayer96]

This is beautiful.

Raptor (which autocorrects to Realtor and I'm not sad about), were your reads based on your impressions or your impressions+MiX's interactions? Anything else you want to share since you're a likely target for the NK now?

Yeah I’m probably gone tonight. Mostly based off interactions/ how often Mix bounced around votes on D1. If I had to guess he was voting for 1/2 of his partners at one point just to make himself look innocent, and distant himself it one flipped. I think that obviously everyone should go reread Mix but you are pretty much top of my scum list after reading through day 1. Sorry if I’m wrong.

[MiX]

Vote: MiX

See ya.

Hey Raptor, is Swan awake at this time? How long do you think twilight is? I hope it's short.

Sucks that we killed Didds, she would've loved to revel in a scum kill in broad daylight...

Hey ADK, win this game for town, won't you please?

Traitor, good luck out there. Godspeed.

Fellow scumbuddies...you exist.


This is my last post. Just doing it for the filler. Filler is fun. Filler is anti-town. I love filler.

I have a billion of other things I wanna say but those help town

Goodbye.

[SpaceAnemone]

This is beautiful.

Raptor (which autocorrects to Realtor and I'm not sad about), were your reads based on your impressions or your impressions+MiX's interactions? Anything else you want to share since you're a likely target for the NK now?

Yeah I’m probably gone tonight. Mostly based off interactions/ how often Mix bounced around votes on D1. If I had to guess he was voting for 1/2 of his partners at one point just to make himself look innocent, and distant himself it one flipped. I think that obviously everyone should go reread Mix but you are pretty much top of my scum list after reading through day 1. Sorry if I’m wrong.

Weirdly, Raerae ranks quite high on my townreads, though I'll do an iso just in case.

I'm glad that at least my scuread on MiX seems to have been accurate! Well played, Raptor! What made you investigate MiX over Raerae though?

[raerae]

This is beautiful.

Raptor (which autocorrects to Realtor and I'm not sad about), were your reads based on your impressions or your impressions+MiX's interactions? Anything else you want to share since you're a likely target for the NK now?

Yeah I’m probably gone tonight. Mostly based off interactions/ how often Mix bounced around votes on D1. If I had to guess he was voting for 1/2 of his partners at one point just to make himself look innocent, and distant himself it one flipped. I think that obviously everyone should go reread Mix but you are pretty much top of my scum list after reading through day 1. Sorry if I’m wrong.

Super wrong but you do you, boo.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Vote: MiX

See ya.

Hey Raptor, is Swan awake at this time? How long do you think twilight is? I hope it's short.

Sucks that we killed Didds, she would've loved to revel in a scum kill in broad daylight...

Hey ADK, win this game for town, won't you please?

Traitor, good luck out there. Godspeed.

Fellow scumbuddies...you exist.


This is my last post. Just doing it for the filler. Filler is fun. Filler is anti-town. I love filler.

I have a billion of other things I wanna say but those help town

Goodbye.

He is awake, he will probably hop on in the next 30 min or so, We start work then lol

[Xxraptorslayer96]

This is beautiful.

Raptor (which autocorrects to Realtor and I'm not sad about), were your reads based on your impressions or your impressions+MiX's interactions? Anything else you want to share since you're a likely target for the NK now?

Yeah I’m probably gone tonight. Mostly based off interactions/ how often Mix bounced around votes on D1. If I had to guess he was voting for 1/2 of his partners at one point just to make himself look innocent, and distant himself it one flipped. I think that obviously everyone should go reread Mix but you are pretty much top of my scum list after reading through day 1. Sorry if I’m wrong.

Weirdly, Raerae ranks quite high on my townreads, though I'll do an iso just in case.

I'm glad that at least my scuread on MiX seems to have been accurate! Well played, Raptor! What made you investigate MiX over Raerae though?

I didn’t really suspect RaeRae till I knew Mix was scum and read there interactions. I can be wrong. I’m not the best scum!hunter but I had a good feeling and got lucky with mix.

[Swowl]

Day 2 Final Vote Count:

MiX (7): SpaceAnemone, raerae, Raptor, Eevee, faust, joseph, MiX
Eevee (1):  jotheonah
faust (1):  Maxford
Joseph2302 (1): A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (1): LaLight

Not Voting (1): Galzria


With 12 players alive, it took 7 to lynch.
Day 2 has ended.
Night 2 starts now, and it ends Thursday, October 7th at 6:25pm EST.
Night actions due within the next 24 hours please!



THREAD LOCKED!

[Swowl]

"We should of known better!"

   "How were we supposed to know one of them were on OUR side?!?!"

"We did not plan for this... this will surely complicate matters moving forward..."



MiX has been lynched! They were the Joker, the Evil King-Aligned Traitor.

[Swowl]

I have decided that my initial idea on how to reveal certain flips would be unfair to all alignments. From this point forward, all roles will flip with any PRs they had associated with them.

Please note the only change to date: MiX was the Joker, the Evil King Aligned 2-Shot Roleblocker Traitor

[Swowl]

The Deck celebrates through the night, thrilled with their finding of the Traitor...

   "I knew there was something off about that MiX fellow."
"Yes, Yes... they were always acting like such a joker... no one behaves that way in such a stressful situation!"
   "Here, Here!", clamors the Deck, "Begone with them!"

But then, in the last hours of the celebration, a Card comes bursting through the doors. Fatigued and hysterical, they slam their corners on the table and exclaim...

   "CARDS! THEY HAVE DONE IT AGAIN! And this time... to one we knew to be one of us!"


ADK has been killed at night. They were the 2 of Clubs, the Numerically-Aligned Day 2 Innocent Child.

[Swowl]

                           DAY 3 STARTS NOW!


Vote Count 3.0:

Not Voting (10): faust, Joseph2302, jotheonah, Maxford, Eevee, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae, xxraptorslayer96


With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 3 ends on Thursday, November 14th at 6:53pm EST.

THREAD UNLOCKED

[SpaceAnemone]

I don't think I'd expected MiX to flip traitor, given that a portion of my scumread on him was based on his interaction with other people I'm suspicious of. Did anyone else retrospectively look for traitor breadcrumbing from him? I really didn't find anything that looked likely till quite far through the game, which means I'm not sure how early to expect the rest of the scumteam to have been aware of him.. and I still think that dynamic makes the wagons harder to read. At least we know that the other three remaining scums have all known about each other from the start.

As before, I think there's a good chance that Joth is scum, but it's especially backed up by the way MiX behaved on the Joth wagon at the end of D1.

I'd be approximately 96% happy to treat Raptor as the new IC. I think the chance he'd have pulled off that exact thing as scum just to try to IC himself is low, even if scum collectively though MiX was behaving like a liability or something.

[SpaceAnemone]

Also, Joth, you should probably offer some explanation of why the IC didn't survive a single night when we have an alleged doctor in the game.

[Galzria]

I don't think I'd expected MiX to flip traitor, given that a portion of my scumread on him was based on his interaction with other people I'm suspicious of. Did anyone else retrospectively look for traitor breadcrumbing from him? I really didn't find anything that looked likely till quite far through the game, which means I'm not sure how early to expect the rest of the scumteam to have been aware of him.. and I still think that dynamic makes the wagons harder to read. At least we know that the other three remaining scums have all known about each other from the start.

As before, I think there's a good chance that Joth is scum, but it's especially backed up by the way MiX behaved on the Joth wagon at the end of D1.

I'd be approximately 96% happy to treat Raptor as the new IC. I think the chance he'd have pulled off that exact thing as scum just to try to IC himself is low, even if scum collectively though MiX was behaving like a liability or something.

Raptor can’t pull that off as scum, as there was no reasonable way for him to know MiX was Traitor if he himself is scum, and it’s a dumb 1-1 trade if he’s wrong and MiX flips town.

I disagree with your assessment of MiX’s interactions regarding the Joth wagon D1, but concede that I strongly preferred Joth’s lynch to Shraeye’s (hence my vote where it was), and nothing Joth has done (or not done) has changed that. However I categorically will not be a part of lynching Joth today (or likely any day prior to a forced MyLo/LyLo or until the other 2 scum are gone) on the chance that he’s town and can actually Doctor a NK. Especially with a scum RB gone, I’m willing to gamble on Joth (if town) being able to Doctor freely. That said, I’m more than open to hearing out partner arguments that look at Joth as scum though.

I did make one mistake in reading my vote counts yesterday: I thought MiX forced Joth’s claim, but it was Raptor.

[Eevee]

Agree we can treat Raptor as town.

Important to note that scum wouldn’t have known they’d have a roleblocker before the flip, so his existence doesn’t for example explain joth’s survival that first night.

Hitting traitor is less amazing (of course still good) - since the team didn’t know Mix, rereading how people acted towards Mix is not really useful. Of course we still have who Mix wanted to lynch and who they wanted to deflect from to analyze.

I need to reread Mix, but it probably has to wait until monday, busy weekend. Happy the game is back afoot still! This is another crucial day for us. Team of 3 mafia against 7 town currently, so a scum lynch would probably set up a 6-2 while a town lynch would lead to a 5-3.

[raerae]

joth, who'd you target and why N1?

[Xxraptorslayer96]

I’m pretty surprised that I survived the night. I’m also really bummed that MiX was traitor. A lot of my reads were assuming they were Mix was sucm.

Does the traitor normally know sucm but scum doesn’t know traitor, just to clarify?

And very much second that Joth needs to share some answers.

[LaLight]

I don't think I'd expected MiX to flip traitor, given that a portion of my scumread on him was based on his interaction with other people I'm suspicious of. Did anyone else retrospectively look for traitor breadcrumbing from him? I really didn't find anything that looked likely till quite far through the game, which means I'm not sure how early to expect the rest of the scumteam to have been aware of him.. and I still think that dynamic makes the wagons harder to read. At least we know that the other three remaining scums have all known about each other from the start.

As before, I think there's a good chance that Joth is scum, but it's especially backed up by the way MiX behaved on the Joth wagon at the end of D1.

I'd be approximately 96% happy to treat Raptor as the new IC. I think the chance he'd have pulled off that exact thing as scum just to try to IC himself is low, even if scum collectively though MiX was behaving like a liability or something.

Yeah, given that MiX probably was trying to send signals as hard as he could, I totally agree and still think Joth is scum.

What's left is actually lynch him

[Joseph2302]

I’m pretty surprised that I survived the night. I’m also really bummed that MiX was traitor. A lot of my reads were assuming they were Mix was sucm.

Does the traitor normally know sucm but scum doesn’t know traitor, just to clarify?

And very much second that Joth needs to share some answers.

Yes traitor knows mafia but not vice versa

[Joseph2302]

And I've been looking for breadcrunbs but not seen many from MiX's interactions

[jotheonah]

Also, Joth, you should probably offer some explanation of why the IC didn't survive a single night when we have an alleged doctor in the game.

I doctored raptor. I’m a 2-shot Doctor. That made me think that perhaps raptor’s a 2-shot cop and lied about being 1-shot. It’s an old trick to keep scum from NKing you. But I also figured scum would see through it. If I’m scum I shoot cop over IC every time.

[jotheonah]

That means I’m just a VT now so I guess if you all want to lynch me not too much is lost. Other than a chance to hit scum.

[faust]

As before, I think there's a good chance that Joth is scum, but it's especially backed up by the way MiX behaved on the Joth wagon at the end of D1.

You're going to have to explain that some more.

[faust]

That means I’m just a VT now so I guess if you all want to lynch me not too much is lost. Other than a chance to hit scum.

So you decided it's a good idea to let scum know that they can safely kill Raptor now?

[raerae]

Also, Joth, you should probably offer some explanation of why the IC didn't survive a single night when we have an alleged doctor in the game.

I doctored raptor. I’m a 2-shot Doctor. That made me think that perhaps raptor’s a 2-shot cop and lied about being 1-shot. It’s an old trick to keep scum from NKing you. But I also figured scum would see through it. If I’m scum I shoot cop over IC every time.

Who did you doctor night one?

[Joseph2302]

That means I’m just a VT now so I guess if you all want to lynch me not too much is lost. Other than a chance to hit scum.

So you decided it's a good idea to let scum know that they can safely kill Raptor now?

Well he could be a 3 shot doctor, or just a full doctor. As per the reasoning they applied above for raptor being 1 or 2 shot

[Joseph2302]

Also if joth is scum, they have had ample time to think of fake doctor targets

[Joseph2302]

Because cop is better kill than IC, but scum could decide to WIFOM instead to make the fake doctor claiming easier than killing cop and "doctoring" IC

[SpaceAnemone]

Raptor can’t pull that off as scum, as there was no reasonable way for him to know MiX was Traitor if he himself is scum, and it’s a dumb 1-1 trade if he’s wrong and MiX flips town.

Sure, I agree with reasonably high confidence that Raptor wouldn't have done that as scum.

However, I think we need to consider the possibility that the scum team could work out that MiX was one of theirs. This is especially true by D2, when they'd have had time to talk about it with each other during N1 and combine observations.

[SpaceAnemone]

As before, I think there's a good chance that Joth is scum, but it's especially backed up by the way MiX behaved on the Joth wagon at the end of D1.

You're going to have to explain that some more.

I think I already put forward a case on Joth, stated a bunch of suspicion around his oh-so-convenient claim, and pointed out that MiX's illogical and unhelpful behaviour on that wagon -- which he himself admitted later was anti-town -- looked a lot like trying to move the lynch towards Shraeye and away from Joth.

Now I'm pointing out that we know for sure that MiX knew exactly who all the scum are, so his behaviour on the Joth wagon looks even more suspicious, meaning my suspicion on Joth is strong coming into D3.

Is there anything here you feel doesn't follow logically?

[jotheonah]

That means I’m just a VT now so I guess if you all want to lynch me not too much is lost. Other than a chance to hit scum.

So you decided it's a good idea to let scum know that they can safely kill Raptor now?

Sure. Or I have a third shot and I’m baiting them into targeting raptor so I can use it and prevent a nightkill. See the WIFOM MerryGoRound goes round and round no matter what I say. That’s the beauty of it.

[Eevee]

I (somewhat weirdly) now think that joth is townier than I thought he was yesterday.

[faust]

I think I already put forward a case on Joth, stated a bunch of suspicion around his oh-so-convenient claim, and pointed out that MiX's illogical and unhelpful behaviour on that wagon -- which he himself admitted later was anti-town -- looked a lot like trying to move the lynch towards Shraeye and away from Joth.

I just went through all your posts and couldn't find where you explained how MiX behaved illogically and unhelpful and how that connects him to joth, so I would really like if you could go into more detail.

[SpaceAnemone]

I (somewhat weirdly) now think that joth is townier than I thought he was yesterday.

How do you feel about the extent to which Joth is avoiding Raerae's question?

For that matter, how do you feel about Raerae's persistence in re-asking?

[SpaceAnemone]

I think I already put forward a case on Joth, stated a bunch of suspicion around his oh-so-convenient claim, and pointed out that MiX's illogical and unhelpful behaviour on that wagon -- which he himself admitted later was anti-town -- looked a lot like trying to move the lynch towards Shraeye and away from Joth.

I just went through all your posts and couldn't find where you explained how MiX behaved illogically and unhelpful and how that connects him to joth, so I would really like if you could go into more detail.

Oh, sorry! I recall having called MiX on his jumpiness during the D1 deadline and then him admitting in D2 that he had been playing in an anti-town way. I thought I'd mentioned that in my justification for voting him D2, but perhaps I didn't. Anyway, the combination of him flipping scum and having apparently protected Joth means my suspicion level on Joth is undwindled. If you'd like even more detail, I'll have to look out some relevant post numbers when I'm home late tonight.

[faust]

I think I already put forward a case on Joth, stated a bunch of suspicion around his oh-so-convenient claim, and pointed out that MiX's illogical and unhelpful behaviour on that wagon -- which he himself admitted later was anti-town -- looked a lot like trying to move the lynch towards Shraeye and away from Joth.

I just went through all your posts and couldn't find where you explained how MiX behaved illogically and unhelpful and how that connects him to joth, so I would really like if you could go into more detail.

Oh, sorry! I recall having called MiX on his jumpiness during the D1 deadline and then him admitting in D2 that he had been playing in an anti-town way. I thought I'd mentioned that in my justification for voting him D2, but perhaps I didn't. Anyway, the combination of him flipping scum and having apparently protected Joth means my suspicion level on Joth is undwindled. If you'd like even more detail, I'll have to look out some relevant post numbers when I'm home late tonight.

That would be nice. I only got to skim D1 so far and it seemed like MiX voted for joth a bunch of times, so it confused me to hear that he defended joth.

[jotheonah]

I (somewhat weirdly) now think that joth is townier than I thought he was yesterday.

How do you feel about the extent to which Joth is avoiding Raerae's question?

For that matter, how do you feel about Raerae's persistence in re-asking?

sorry, what question am I avoiding?

[jotheonah]

Also, Joth, you should probably offer some explanation of why the IC didn't survive a single night when we have an alleged doctor in the game.

I doctored raptor. I’m a 2-shot Doctor. That made me think that perhaps raptor’s a 2-shot cop and lied about being 1-shot. It’s an old trick to keep scum from NKing you. But I also figured scum would see through it. If I’m scum I shoot cop over IC every time.

Who did you doctor night one?

MiX. I thought I already shared that.

[jotheonah]

I can't super remember why. I thought he came off pretty towny at the end of the day. I had no idea who scum would target -- in fact I wouldn't have used my shot at all except I figured they were probably going to target me, so I might as well.

Although in retrospect that makes no sense, since there's no universe in which both I die and my shot does anything.

So probably should have saved it.

[faust]

Although in retrospect that makes no sense, since there's no universe in which both I die and my shot does anything.

So probably should have saved it.

I mean, I can think of a universe, but yes, it's very unlikely.

[jotheonah]

Although in retrospect that makes no sense, since there's no universe in which both I die and my shot does anything.

So probably should have saved it.

I mean, I can think of a universe, but yes, it's very unlikely.

I mean, imagine if there was a vig who targeted MiX and I actually saved him! That would suck.
This is clearly not going to go down in history as my best game. But I'm not scum! Just incompetent town.

[Maxford]

It's official: LaLight and Eevee are one and the same to me. I hadn't even noticed LL only had 3 posts!

Vote: LaLight

What do people usually do when they "breadcrumb"? Is the thing I'm quoting the type of things to look for? It's so arbitrary though, Mix has loads of posts!

Also, how hard do you think Mix wanted his scumbuddies to know he was the traitor?

[Maxford]

As before, I think there's a good chance that Joth is scum, but it's especially backed up by the way MiX behaved on the Joth wagon at the end of D1.

You're going to have to explain that some more.

I think I already put forward a case on Joth, stated a bunch of suspicion around his oh-so-convenient claim, and pointed out that MiX's illogical and unhelpful behaviour on that wagon -- which he himself admitted later was anti-town -- looked a lot like trying to move the lynch towards Shraeye and away from Joth.

Now I'm pointing out that we know for sure that MiX knew exactly who all the scum are, so his behaviour on the Joth wagon looks even more suspicious, meaning my suspicion on Joth is strong coming into D3.

Is there anything here you feel doesn't follow logically?

Why are you not voting for him then?

[Maxford]

Although in retrospect that makes no sense, since there's no universe in which both I die and my shot does anything.

So probably should have saved it.

I mean, I can think of a universe, but yes, it's very unlikely.

I mean, imagine if there was a vig who targeted MiX and I actually saved him! That would suck.
This is clearly not going to go down in history as my best game. But I'm not scum! Just incompetent town.

faust is not taking into account that the universe he's thinking about would be a bad universe for town, weird... unless you have another scenario in mind, faust?

[faust]

Although in retrospect that makes no sense, since there's no universe in which both I die and my shot does anything.

So probably should have saved it.

I mean, I can think of a universe, but yes, it's very unlikely.

I mean, imagine if there was a vig who targeted MiX and I actually saved him! That would suck.
This is clearly not going to go down in history as my best game. But I'm not scum! Just incompetent town.

faust is not taking into account that the universe he's thinking about would be a bad universe for town, weird... unless you have another scenario in mind, faust?

I was mostly just nitpicky. But I was entertaining an idea were scum had a 1-shot Paranoid Gun Owner (a role that kill a player wo targets them) and joth could save a player who targeted them.

[raerae]

I'm buying nothing that joth is selling. MiX was dynamite fishing for PRs here and joth called him out on it.

am I at L-1? do I need to claim?

You're at L-2 and you needed to claim like 3 days ago.

Somebody really wants to know what the PRs are, huh?

Then says,

I was planning not to protect anyone tonight, tbh, since no one itt is towny enough to be an obvious nightkill.

I guess now I'm an obvious nightkill. Maybe I can self-target.

Indicating he knows he shouldn't use his power N1.  So tell me, what self-respecting doctor uses their power when they're likely to be the NK on the guy they think is trying to force claims?

Vote: joth

[Joseph2302]

I'm buying nothing that joth is selling. MiX was dynamite fishing for PRs here and joth called him out on it.

am I at L-1? do I need to claim?

You're at L-2 and you needed to claim like 3 days ago.

Somebody really wants to know what the PRs are, huh?

Then says,

I was planning not to protect anyone tonight, tbh, since no one itt is towny enough to be an obvious nightkill.

I guess now I'm an obvious nightkill. Maybe I can self-target.

Indicating he knows he shouldn't use his power N1.  So tell me, what self-respecting doctor uses their power when they're likely to be the NK on the guy they think is trying to force claims?

Vote: joth

I agree, this seems like bullshit- well spotted raerae
Vote: joth

[Maxford]

I (somewhat weirdly) now think that joth is townier than I thought he was yesterday.

Why?

[Eevee]

I (somewhat weirdly) now think that joth is townier than I thought he was yesterday.

Why?

Just gut, he seems more sincere and the somewhat haphazard (I mean not well prepared) is more often from town. But that’s a good call from raerae, having second thoughts now.

[jotheonah]

I (somewhat weirdly) now think that joth is townier than I thought he was yesterday.

Why?

Just gut, he seems more sincere and the somewhat haphazard (I mean not well prepared) is more often from town. But that’s a good call from raerae, having second thoughts now.

Trust your gut here.

I have played pretty horribly. Maxford, any chance I was right and you had an extra shot and you used it on me?

[Maxford]

I (somewhat weirdly) now think that joth is townier than I thought he was yesterday.

Why?

Just gut, he seems more sincere and the somewhat haphazard (I mean not well prepared) is more often from town. But that’s a good call from raerae, having second thoughts now.

Trust your gut here.

I have played pretty horribly. Maxford, any chance I was right and you had an extra shot and you used it on me?

I don't get your question.

[faust]

I (somewhat weirdly) now think that joth is townier than I thought he was yesterday.

Why?

Just gut, he seems more sincere and the somewhat haphazard (I mean not well prepared) is more often from town. But that’s a good call from raerae, having second thoughts now.

Trust your gut here.

I have played pretty horribly. Maxford, any chance I was right and you had an extra shot and you used it on me?

I don't get your question.

He confused you with Raptor.

[jotheonah]

That I did.

[EFHW]

Vote count 3.1   

joth (2): raerae, Joseph

Not Voting ( 8 ): faust, Raptor, Maxford, Space, joth, Lalight, Eevee, Galzria

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 3 ends on Thursday, November 14th at 6:53pm EST.

[faust]

Vote: LaLight

[Xxraptorslayer96]

That I did.

No extra shot unfortunately  :/

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Sorry I haven’t had a ton of time to reread and all that Jazz.

It's official: LaLight and Eevee are one and the same to me. I hadn't even noticed LL only had 3 posts!

Vote: LaLight

What do people usually do when they "breadcrumb"? Is the thing I'm quoting the type of things to look for? It's so arbitrary though, Mix has loads of posts!

Also, how hard do you think Mix wanted his scumbuddies to know he was the traitor?

But I highly agree with Max here. MiX was probably trying to do some sort of breadcrumbing throughout the day, maybe as grouping the scum all together as his hard town reads or perhaps he voted for all three scum at some point? Just throwing out a few ideas but he has a lot of posts day one to sort through.

[SpaceAnemone]

It's official: LaLight and Eevee are one and the same to me. I hadn't even noticed LL only had 3 posts!

Vote: LaLight

What do people usually do when they "breadcrumb"? Is the thing I'm quoting the type of things to look for? It's so arbitrary though, Mix has loads of posts!

Also, how hard do you think Mix wanted his scumbuddies to know he was the traitor?

The three main benefits for MiX of identifying himself to the scum team would be not getting NKd (not that he's a common NK target as far as I can recall), enabling more coordination across the scumteam for coordinating a mislynch (because they'd know they can count on him to help push lynches through), and also not having them help drive his lynch thinking he's town. I think MiX wouldn't feel very likely to draw the NK, but the two other benefits are things that would have fed into achieving his wincon, and he's a player who tends to focus on doing that, so I'm guessing he did something. He's pretty smart, though, so maybe it's subtle.

For the particular quote you pulled out, I think it's unlikely to be a breadcrumb exactly, but when I came across it earlier, I thought it made it more likely that Eevee and LL share a faction, because otherwise in MiX's mind one of them would be in the "them" camp, and one in the "us" camp, and then I think that kind of off-the-cuff statement wouldn't occur to him so readily. Of course, t could in theory have been carefully planned and planted, but he also probably didn't bank on being lynched so quickly, so I really doubt that is the case.

[Maxford]

Sorry I haven’t had a ton of time to reread and all that Jazz.

It's official: LaLight and Eevee are one and the same to me. I hadn't even noticed LL only had 3 posts!

Vote: LaLight

What do people usually do when they "breadcrumb"? Is the thing I'm quoting the type of things to look for? It's so arbitrary though, Mix has loads of posts!

Also, how hard do you think Mix wanted his scumbuddies to know he was the traitor?

But I highly agree with Max here. MiX was probably trying to do some sort of breadcrumbing throughout the day, maybe as grouping the scum all together as his hard town reads or perhaps he voted for all three scum at some point? Just throwing out a few ideas but he has a lot of posts day one to sort through.

Space, can you easily trace all of Mix's votes with your vote counter?

[SpaceAnemone]

As before, I think there's a good chance that Joth is scum, but it's especially backed up by the way MiX behaved on the Joth wagon at the end of D1.

You're going to have to explain that some more.

I think I already put forward a case on Joth, stated a bunch of suspicion around his oh-so-convenient claim, and pointed out that MiX's illogical and unhelpful behaviour on that wagon -- which he himself admitted later was anti-town -- looked a lot like trying to move the lynch towards Shraeye and away from Joth.

Now I'm pointing out that we know for sure that MiX knew exactly who all the scum are, so his behaviour on the Joth wagon looks even more suspicious, meaning my suspicion on Joth is strong coming into D3.

Is there anything here you feel doesn't follow logically?

Why are you not voting for him then?

Laziness :-P Well, at the time it was only a few hours into D3, and no votes were flying yet.

Vote: Joth

[SpaceAnemone]

Space, can you easily trace all of Mix's votes with your vote counter?

Sure! Is there anything particular you'd like to pull out?

[SpaceAnemone]

I agree, this seems like bullshit- well spotted raerae
Vote: joth

I agree with this. Great spot, Raerae!

I find myself in the unusual-for-me position of townreading Joseph a bit now, too.

[Maxford]

Scummy people:
Max, Joth, faust, Raptor, raerae

Not sure: SA, Joseph, Galzria (we want more!)

Towny: Maxford


@Galzria Thoughs on my alignment or wagon?

Scummy people: (easy scumread, easy scumread, easy scumread, lurker scumread, original scumread)

Not sure: (original "townread", townread so he doesn't vote me, lurker townread)

Towny: Newbie

This reads list has a clear agenda behind it. I would like to see real townreads other than ford, almost every read here is free (the SA and raerae reads are original, however, it's not all scummy).

Also please don't call me max, it took me a while to see where I was in the readslist.

If joth was town, I would expect him to exert more energy on making that apparent to other townies. I may be projecting, but see my indignant reaction to my wagon. I know when I'm wrongly suspected, it becomes my #1 priority to show townies I'm town, even over having my own vote on someone who's scum.

Is your way of showing townies that you're town to call everyone scum? That's not working very well for me.

Didn't Eevee say the complete opposite just now? There's an objectively better thing to quote for that, which is Eevee's previous (two) post(s).


Eevee's D1 posts are somewhat towny however, they were opposing both wagons (but mostly the shraeye wagon) which is towny. I want to see where this wagon goes while I reread LL/Galz/Raptor.

This looks like a possible place Mix might have breadcrumbed. The LL/Galz/Raptor mention is interesting, because at that point, if I remember correctly, there wasn't much to reread from LL and Galz (nor Raptor I think). While I think it's very unlikely that Raptor is scum, this post makes me update a little bit in the direction that scum!Raptor could have detected the traitor and decided to sacrifice him.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space, can you easily trace all of Mix's votes with your vote counter?

Sure! Is there anything particular you'd like to pull out?

If you only want to know who he voted for and when, it's this:
D1 #67 shraeye
D1 #81 raerae
D1 #89 Joseph
D1 #144 Raptor
D1 #156 joth
D1 #182 LaLight
D1 #215 joth
D1 #285 unvote
D1 #316 raptor
D1 #333 joth
D1 #334 LaLight
D1 #350 Galzria
D1 #427 LaLight
D1 #440 shraeye
D1 #441 joth
D1 #484 shraeye
D1 #500 joth
D1 #521 ADK
D1 #531 joth
D1 #544 shraeye
D1 #557 joth
D1 #566 shraeye
D2 #615 faust
D2 #637 Space
D2 #690 LaLight
D2 #705 Eevee
D2 #830 Raptor
D2 #848 MiX

[Maxford]

Space, can you easily trace all of Mix's votes with your vote counter?

Sure! Is there anything particular you'd like to pull out?

I mean, you're the most experienced player here so you should know better!

That said, I suppose that a way MiX could have signalled his scummyness could have been by voting for his scumbuddies in succession, so just having a look at the list of his votes could be interesting.

PPE: yeap, that's what I wanted

[SpaceAnemone]

Indicating he knows he shouldn't use his power N1.  So tell me, what self-respecting doctor uses their power when they're likely to be the NK on the guy they think is trying to force claims?

Vote: joth

More thinking on this: maybe the reason he had to say he'd protected MiX is that he actually did target MiX N1, and was concerned about the possibility of a tracker.

But if he targeted MiX, what was he doing? RBing is unlikely, because MiX himself flipped RB, and obviously the NK landed elsewhere. Maybe role cop? In which case, coming into D2, the scum team could have known with certainty that MiX was theirs (assuming they had a way to disseminate the investigation information between them in private). It's kind of a stretch, and maybe Joth just being careless with his answer is more likely, but at the same time, it's worth considering.

[SpaceAnemone]

I mean, you're the most experienced player here so you should know better!

Haha.. out of the two of us, yes, but many of the others have way more experience than me!!

[faust]

Am I not getting my explanation for the joth/MiX thing then?

[SpaceAnemone]

As before, I think there's a good chance that Joth is scum, but it's especially backed up by the way MiX behaved on the Joth wagon at the end of D1.

You're going to have to explain that some more.

Okay, so mid-D1 there's stuff like #375, where MiX just paints Joth as super-townie. He doubles down on it at #379. At that point in the game, Joth and Galz have the leading wagons at three apiece. When pressured, he makes a couple of posts that say that Joth isn't as townie as he'd thought (#391, #392), but he doesn't vote, only pretend-votes. Note that these involve doing what apparently amounts to a comprehensive Joth-read.

MiX votes Shraeye at #440 and then immediately moves to Joth at #441, but with an instruction to the game at large not to hammer (though it was only taking Joth to 5 votes, the first four being Galz, me, LL and Shraeye). At #452 he uses not having re-read enough as a reason not to unvote Joth, i.e. something he can undo by claiming to have read things at any moment to justify flinching from the wagon. And also, what does he think happened between #392 and here that negate the careful re-read he already claimed he did? At #458 he says he was re-reading, and was voting Joth to add pressure while doing the re-read.

I don't like #484 at all:

We need joth here. But I think the objectively better thing to do here is

Vote: shraeye

And hope everything works out? I was reading joth, going to read shraeye next.

I admit that MiX's jump back to Joth at #500 doesn't fully fit with the thread of either saying Joth's town or half-heartedly saying he might be scummy but more reading is needed. However, I think he's also trying to sew confusion that keeps people away from the Joth wagon, since those of us toughing it out there have made it clear we prefer Joth over Shraeye.

At #521 he votes ADK with some very weird and jumpy reasoning. This was around 4.5 hours till deadline (assuming LL is correct at #524), and ADK at that point had no wagon. This was not helpful consolidating townie behaviour.

#525: MiX seems to be whiteknighting Shraeye, and calls the Joth wagon "okay-ish", but seems very focused on finding some other alternative. Again, this is really close to deadline: far too close for many players to be likely to make a switch. Plus, he's still going on about needing to re-read.

#531 And back to Joth again, after making a fuss over ADK with a false accusation about voting patterns.

#544 Uses a quote from Joseph to move back to Shraeye. That's a super-weak reason, and not one I'd expect from someone doing so much re-reading. Given that I was particularly invested in the Joth wagon because I actually scumread Joth, it was annoying to see such poor reasoning from someone who's talking so much about re-reading!

Then there's this:

Space Count

Shraeye (7): A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford, MiX
jotheonah (5): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae, Eevee
faust (1): Shraeye
Not Voting (1): Xxraptorslayer96

So Shraeye is at L-1, and MiX jumped off Joth the moment the wagons evened up, which might be telling for later.

Oh, and at #555 there's me explaining why MiX's voting whims were not helpful. And it goes on with MiX jumping around, facilitating Joth's claim a bit, then being back on Shraeye again for deadline. I was in no way surprised that MiX flipped scum, and as I said at the time, it specifically seemed like MiX was protecting Joth. I think given that I had an independent pre-existing suspicion on Joth anyway, and now know that MiX flipped scum, it's entirely reasonable to strengthen my estimate of how likely Joth is to be scum as a result.

[SpaceAnemone]

Am I not getting my explanation for the joth/MiX thing then?

Nope, it turns out that I am just not getting my sleep :-P

[faust]

I guess what I don't quite see is that MiX is trying to protect joth when he actually voted for joth a lot, says he's okay with the wagon, and generally just flipflops all over the place. To me that is more indicative of scum changing reads on town opportunistically.

[Joseph2302]

I mean, you're the most experienced player here so you should know better!

Haha.. out of the two of us, yes, but many of the others have way more experience than me!!

I would say Space is about #6-7 on most experienced players on here

[Joseph2302]

And I like my vote on joth. Their story for the game doesn't add up, so we've caught scum in a lie. I just don't see why it has to be more complicated than that

[jotheonah]

And I like my vote on joth. Their story for the game doesn't add up, so we've caught scum in a lie. I just don't see why it has to be more complicated than that

Because you’re wrong?

[Eevee]

Joth, I thought Mix was very scummy coming off day 1, so raerae's inquiry feels very relevant to me. If you can't come up with a convincing explanation for protecting him, I think I'm going to vote for you.

You have 24 hours.

[faust]

Joth, I thought Mix was very scummy coming off day 1, so raerae's inquiry feels very relevant to me. If you can't come up with a convincing explanation for protecting him, I think I'm going to vote for you.

You have 24 hours.

Why aren't you voting for him now?

[Eevee]

No particular reason, trying to be careful with my votes with such high portion of our population being scum. And I wanted to make what I imagined to be wa Taken joke, which, upon googling, isn’t even a line from that movie.

[Maxford]

I mean, you're the most experienced player here so you should know better!

Haha.. out of the two of us, yes, but many of the others have way more experience than me!!

I would say Space is about #6-7 on most experienced players on here

yes sorry, I meant, more experienced between the two of us. I didn't mean most experienced in a general sense

[raerae]

I guess what I don't quite see is that MiX is trying to protect joth when he actually voted for joth a lot, says he's okay with the wagon, and generally just flipflops all over the place. To me that is more indicative of scum changing reads on town opportunistically.

You attributing standard scum behavior to MiX is laughable. That cat wouldn't play expectedly if you paid him.

[faust]

I guess what I don't quite see is that MiX is trying to protect joth when he actually voted for joth a lot, says he's okay with the wagon, and generally just flipflops all over the place. To me that is more indicative of scum changing reads on town opportunistically.

You attributing standard scum behavior to MiX is laughable. That cat wouldn't play expectedly if you paid him.

So Space coming to the conclusion that joth is scum based on MiX's behaviour is fine, but when I come to a different conclusion then suddenly you can't possibly make conclusions based on his behaviour?

[SpaceAnemone]

I guess what I don't quite see is that MiX is trying to protect joth when he actually voted for joth a lot, says he's okay with the wagon, and generally just flipflops all over the place. To me that is more indicative of scum changing reads on town opportunistically.

You attributing standard scum behavior to MiX is laughable. That cat wouldn't play expectedly if you paid him.

So Space coming to the conclusion that joth is scum based on MiX's behaviour is fine, but when I come to a different conclusion then suddenly you can't possibly make conclusions based on his behaviour?

Wait.. that's not a fair representation of why I think Joth is scum at all.

I came to the conclusion Joth was scum based on D1 reads and what I think was a very minor scumslip. Early in the game, I was townreading MiX over his casual-sounding response to my "MixFaurd" joke, so that scumread on Joth was non-MiX-dependent.

Then I thought it was a bit off that MiX was jumping around making it difficult to get my preferred lynch through in the runup to the D1 deadline. I keep coming back to that because I was actually feeling quite cross at the time about how much time-wasting his flitting was causing for anyone else trying to keep up. I pointed out at #545 that it could even look like partner-protecting, which might be worth remembering later (i.e. if one of them later flips scum). You could have objected to that comment at the time, but didn't make any response, as far as I can remember.

Meanwhile, Joth, a claimed doctor, doesn't get NKd. That's another MiX-independent piece of evidence against Joth.

Then finally MiX flips scum thanks to a cop result. Going back to my "that might be telling for later" comment, I now have another piece of evidence that makes Joth look suspicious. Sure, Raerae could be right that MiX's behaviour could have been every bit as annoying and/or unpredictable as town as he was as traitor, but it's not the only thing making me vote Joth.

[faust]

Wait.. that's not a fair representation of why I think Joth is scum at all.

You say that and yet two thirds of the subsequent discussion talk abut MiX. I did not mean to imply that MiX is the only reason you're voting joth, I was merely drawing an analogy. MiX isn't the only reason I'm not voting joth either.

[faust]

And an aside, your explanation bring out another main flaw in your argument, your scumpartner-read D1 that you felt was validated by MiX flipping Traitor, despite the fact that Traitor-scum is a very different dynamic from scum who know each other.

[raerae]

I guess what I don't quite see is that MiX is trying to protect joth when he actually voted for joth a lot, says he's okay with the wagon, and generally just flipflops all over the place. To me that is more indicative of scum changing reads on town opportunistically.

You attributing standard scum behavior to MiX is laughable. That cat wouldn't play expectedly if you paid him.

So Space coming to the conclusion that joth is scum based on MiX's behaviour is fine, but when I come to a different conclusion then suddenly you can't possibly make conclusions based on his behaviour?

Space made conclusions based on actual stuff from MiX, you made conclusions based on what you expect Scum to do, not what you expect scum!MiX to do.

[Swowl]

Vote count 3.2   

Joth (3): Raerae, Joseph, SpaceAnemone
LaLight (1): faust

Not Voting ( 6 ): Raptor, Maxford, Joth, Lalight, Eevee, Galzria

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 3 ends on Thursday, November 14th at 6:53pm EST.

[SpaceAnemone]

And an aside, your explanation bring out another main flaw in your argument, your scumpartner-read D1 that you felt was validated by MiX flipping Traitor, despite the fact that Traitor-scum is a very different dynamic from scum who know each other.

Here's a post I made in response to a discussion with Galz, where I explicitly point out that I expect scum behaviour to be different given the traitor-scum dynamic:

There’s likely at least 1 scum between {Faust, Joseph}, else the first 4 people on Shraeye were all town (not impossible, but more unlikely than likely).

This sort of analysis is problematic. Like, there is no particular reason that I see why scum would be on the shraeye wagon, and early on the shraeye wagon. Sure, it's unlikely that a group of 4 contains no scum. But we already know that 2 of them are town. In the end it's just the chance that there's 1 scum in a group of 2, unless there is some compelling reason that i am missing for whyy scum is likely to be early on the shraeye wagon.

Thing is, you and I just approach things differently in general. Sure, what you say is as true as anything. But what I’m arguing is that practically speaking, that sort of thing just generally doesn’t happen. Yes, there’s no reason it can’t, it just doesn’t all that often.

How do you feel the typical wagon distribution will have changed given that three of the four of them (presumably?) didn't know the identity of the forth?

That issue dropped my confidence in my own wagon analysis coming into D2. I think the biggest driving factor causing the typical dispersal pattern of scums between wagons is that generally they don't want to be seen to be acting as a team... so if several of them don't know who not to team up with, then I think the dynamics might not look the same.

PPE 1

However, my particular point that you seemed to be responding to was about MiX protecting Joth. There's no complicating factor there, because given that we know MiX was the traitor, then he has full knowledge of whether the wagon he's distracting everyone from is on town or scum. In fact, he's the only player who knows that for all other players. So there's no problem with that reasoning. Why are you trying to cast doubt here?

[jotheonah]

Well I guess I ought to vote: LaLight.

I’ll be back later with more thoughts.

[faust]

However, my particular point that you seemed to be responding to was about MiX protecting Joth. There's no complicating factor there, because given that we know MiX was the traitor, then he has full knowledge of whether the wagon he's distracting everyone from is on town or scum. In fact, he's the only player who knows that for all other players. So there's no problem with that reasoning. Why are you trying to cast doubt here?

I believe a Traitor is much less likely to bus at all, and your story requires a significant amount of bussing even if it was later backpedaled.

[faust]

I guess what I don't quite see is that MiX is trying to protect joth when he actually voted for joth a lot, says he's okay with the wagon, and generally just flipflops all over the place. To me that is more indicative of scum changing reads on town opportunistically.

You attributing standard scum behavior to MiX is laughable. That cat wouldn't play expectedly if you paid him.

So Space coming to the conclusion that joth is scum based on MiX's behaviour is fine, but when I come to a different conclusion then suddenly you can't possibly make conclusions based on his behaviour?

Space made conclusions based on actual stuff from MiX, you made conclusions based on what you expect Scum to do, not what you expect scum!MiX to do.

I guess I am kind of confused as to why you think MiX would play particularly unexpectedly. It's not like he's Morgrim 2.0.

[Maxford]

Well I guess I ought to vote: LaLight.

I’ll be back later with more thoughts.

Ought to vote LaLight? Why?

[Eevee]

Maxford,who do you think is towny/scummy?

[LaLight]

Right, I have some things to say, right after vote: joth

[LaLight]

I don't get why faust is voting for me and doesn't seem to do any scumhunting work. You say Space's theory about MiX is incorrect and for a change you offer a lurker lynch? Without case?

[LaLight]

Eevee, why have you lost your pic, it's harder now

[LaLight]

ok, I think it's joth and faust. I also think joth is living unforgivably long with his claim never being backed up.

[Eevee]

Eevee, why have you lost your pic, it's harder now

No clue. I'll give it a day and a find a new one if it doesn't come back. Maybe there's an even cuter Eevee somewhere on the internet now.

@your last post, there are 3 mafia left.

[faust]

I don't get why faust is voting for me and doesn't seem to do any scumhunting work. You say Space's theory about MiX is incorrect and for a change you offer a lurker lynch? Without case?

It seems you got the gist of it.

[faust]

Request prod on Galzria

I had to llok at a vote count to even remember that he's in the game.

[jotheonah]

idk fam

I feel like I’m letting the town down by not working harder to argue against my lynch.

At the same time, I get why everyone suspects me. I’d probably buy the case against me too.

I haven’t had as much time/energy for mafia lately and so I’ve been playing kind of lazy. My N1 targeting decision was, plain and simple, a result of having to make a quick decision and not having time to think it through/reread.

My default action, as a claimed PR who thinks himself likely to be NK’d, is to use my shot so it at least doesn’t go to waste. In this particular case, that default was wrong. But I didn’t take the time to logic that out. I was already feeling annoyed that I had played day 1 poorly enough to be outed and I had already written the game off for myself, so I just picked a target.

I have a complicated history with MiX. I tend to scum read him hardest when he turns out to be town and townread him the most when he’s scum. Based on that, I thought he was town. And I thought scum might target him because he’s an active, helpful player who can be hard to lynch. He wasn’t an obvious target, but the one thing scum doesn’t do with a claimed doctor in the town is choose an obvious target.

I’ve really botched the game, and if everyone is as convinced as they say that I’m scum then I guess it’s better I get out of the game before I’m an even bigger liability. But if you would like to lynch scum today, look elsewhere.

My top suspects: still Eevee and Joseph. Also, increasingly, faust. I just played a game with him as my scum partner. This thing he’s doing with me, where he sort of dances around defending me but still leaves himself lots of room to advocate my lynch, it fits the profile. Eevee is behaving similarly. I suspect scum is pushing my case but trying to look like they’re not too enthusiastic about it.

Vote: Eevee

[LaLight]

Eevee, why have you lost your pic, it's harder now

No clue. I'll give it a day and a find a new one if it doesn't come back. Maybe there's an even cuter Eevee somewhere on the internet now.

@your last post, there are 3 mafia left.

yeah, I know. Nut i think it's joth and faust quite surely and also someone third. You?

[LaLight]

I don't get why faust is voting for me and doesn't seem to do any scumhunting work. You say Space's theory about MiX is incorrect and for a change you offer a lurker lynch? Without case?

It seems you got the gist of it.

Oh thank you for this correct and, even better, informative answer. Do you even want town to win?

[Eevee]

Joth is at L-2 currently. I don't want to vote for him before we hear from Galzria (etc), but I'd put my vote there if the deadline was closer (it's on the 14th, btw).

faust, why LaLight? Apologies if I've missed an explanation, is there more than the lurkiness? Do you think joth is town or a bad lynch?

Would also be interested to hear what Raptor thinks. (Interested in everyone else's thoughts too of course, but especially from someone I'm treating as town for all intents and purposes.)

[jotheonah]

We do have until Thursday. If you all don’t hammer me, I will spend tonight re-reading and doing my darnedest to find you a better lynch option. And then if you decide to hammer me anyway, at least you can look at my work after I flip town and maybe it will be helpful.

[Eevee]

We do have until Thursday. If you all don’t hammer me, I will spend tonight re-reading and doing my darnedest to find you a better lynch option. And then if you decide to hammer me anyway, at least you can look at my work after I flip town and maybe it will be helpful.

I'll hold my vote off for sure, as long as you don't go silent on us. And I'm not even dead-set on voting you, if a better option presents itself. Head says you're scum, heart is having reservations.
'
Fwiw, your current vote, not the bestest! Maybe start by rereading me?

[faust]

I don't get why faust is voting for me and doesn't seem to do any scumhunting work. You say Space's theory about MiX is incorrect and for a change you offer a lurker lynch? Without case?

It seems you got the gist of it.

Oh thank you for this correct and, even better, informative answer. Do you even want town to win?

Oh thank you for this open-ended and, even better, non-rhethorical question. Yes.

[faust]

faust, why LaLight? Apologies if I've missed an explanation, is there more than the lurkiness? Do you think joth is town or a bad lynch?

LaLight is PoE mostly; I have a bunch of townreads and he's not among them. Other people in that category are at least more active, and I hope that I will get some insight from seeing how people react to my pushing LaLight. Plus LaLight was kinda scummy on D2 I seem to remember, but I'll have to reread to check why.

I think joth is town, and a bad lynch.

[faust]

if a better option presents itself.

Here's a suggestion: Why don't you present a better option?

[Eevee]

if a better option presents itself.

Here's a suggestion: Why don't you present a better option?

I would if I had one, right? Or I'm scum.

So, to answer your question: I don't have one.

[Eevee]

This might not be very relevant currently, but faust and LL being two independently scummy people, I think there's a high probability exactly one of them is scum.

[faust]

This might not be very relevant currently, but faust and LL being two independently scummy people, I think there's a high probability exactly one of them is scum.

Do you have any reason for calling me and LaLight scummy? Why do you say that you don't have scumreads that are better than joth (who you don't seem to scumread very hard) and then go on to talk about two scumreads that you have?

Vote: Eevee

[Eevee]

This might not be very relevant currently, but faust and LL being two independently scummy people, I think there's a high probability exactly one of them is scum.

Do you have any reason for calling me and LaLight scummy? Why do you say that you don't have scumreads that are better than joth (who you don't seem to scumread very hard) and then go on to talk about two scumreads that you have?

Vote: Eevee

For you, not getting night killed, or presenting any analysis that's made you feel towny to me. Usually townfaust seems very "useful" to me, this time I've found your presence a bit lacking. A lot of questions and pushes for others to make cases, less so doing any of the stuff you're asking yourself. I think you surely know I'm more of a sheeper, someone who analyses other people's cases and defenses and makes reads based on that. You're continuously gung-ho about getting some  groundbreaking breakthroughs (analysis or cases) from me, which feels dishonest and like you are looking for reasons to push my lynch.

I recall being pretty good at identifying LL as town previously based on not easily substantiated emotional/gut reads, his few posts haven't had a tone or content that'd make me feel towny. Anyone with very few posts and nothing towny in them is inherently scummy, Galzria is right there behind LL in the scumminess rankings. "Not seeming towny to me" isn't an easy or even viable case to push however, and his changed availability (and the passage of time) makes this gut based read tricky -  I don't put a lot of confidence in it . With such high portion of scum in the game, anyone who isn't a townread is already pretty scummy in my eyes. Like, I'm 95% sure of Raptor, feel pretty good about Maxford still although I'd say his day2 has been less towny than day 1 was, so removing myself, of the 7 of you 3 are scum - even taking into account the chance I'm wrong about Max and/Raptor, you're all almost 40% of being scum to me. That's pretty scummy in usual mafia framework. Yet still less so than joth, whom I'm scumreading somewhat hard - as I said earlier, I think the facts are pointing towards him being scum, it just always feels too easy when there's no one defending him and the case kind of hinges on scum making mistakes - I've found that the mistakes often end up being from town that was less careful. I think I'm just afraid of being wrong and emotionally hedging, and joth should probably be the lynch - but there's no harm in looking for alternatives? This game has had noticeably few wagons - of the currently alive players only me and joth have had more than two votes? Not even sure if I've had more than two at any point, although surely more than two individual people have voted for me.

[faust]

For you, not getting night killed, or presenting any analysis that's made you feel towny to me. Usually townfaust seems very "useful" to me, this time I've found your presence a bit lacking. A lot of questions and pushes for others to make cases, less so doing any of the stuff you're asking yourself. I think you surely know I'm more of a sheeper, someone who analyses other people's cases and defenses and makes reads based on that. You're continuously gung-ho about getting some  groundbreaking breakthroughs (analysis or cases) from me, which feels dishonest and like you are looking for reasons to push my lynch.

Well, my presence has been lacking because I'm busier than I used to, especially in the three months I'm spending in the US. Also the other game has been an additional resource drain. That's kind of why I'd like for others to do some additional work, I cannot rely as much on doing thorough rereads because I don't have the time for it. For some reason my changed availability does not serve as an excuse even though I still make an effort to contribute, whereas LaLight can lurk his way through the game, then come in and complain about me not doing enough, and that's totally fine.

[Swowl]

Galzria has been prodded.

[Swowl]

Vote count 3.3   

Joth (4): Raerae, Joseph, SpaceAnemone, LaLight
Eevee(2): Joth, faust

Not Voting ( 6 ): Raptor, Maxford, Eevee, Galzria

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 3 ends on Thursday, November 14th at 6:53pm EST. That is in just over 3 days.

[Joseph2302]

.

[LaLight]

I think Eevee slipped there a bit, I am now scumreading him much more than couple of hours ago.

But first, let's lynch joth (of course after he does the thing)

[LaLight]

Joseph balances on the edge of "Too scummy to be scum" as he always is for me and "for some reason i still don't scumread him even a bit (and no one else as well". I remember him being scum in Cities game and there he was REALLY townie and that almost secured a win. Here this is another case, but still he's not his usual self. Maybe I just forgot

[LaLight]

I've read the game, like, twice and can't point at Maxford and raerae as one or the other.

[LaLight]

Galzria is here, huh

anyway, I think scumteam is joth/faust/Eevee, now all the hard work is to persuade everyone

Maybe you just listen to me? I am pretty sure I am right

[LaLight]

also I am not scum and believe me, you'll get a confirmation pretty soon

[Eevee]

I think Eevee slipped there a bit, I am now scumreading him much more than couple of hours ago.

But first, let's lynch joth (of course after he does the thing)

Heyo. Where did I "slip"?

[Eevee]

also I am not scum and believe me, you'll get a confirmation pretty soon

What is this?

[LaLight]

so like

joth > Eevee > faust >>> Galzria > raerae > Maxford >>> Joseph > Space > raptor > Me

[LaLight]

also I am not scum and believe me, you'll get a confirmation pretty soon

What is this?

This is, well, something and I don't feel like sharing yet

[LaLight]

I think Eevee slipped there a bit, I am now scumreading him much more than couple of hours ago.

But first, let's lynch joth (of course after he does the thing)

Heyo. Where did I "slip"?

And also I don't feel like sharing this one for now, I am so sorry

[LaLight]

I immediately feel bad for scumreading Eevee, what have you done to me!

But I'll stick to my guns

[LaLight]

anyway, I am off to sleep. It's also 22 hours till my birthday, so I may or may not be VLA then depending on what my family will do for me

[raerae]

LL being a super hedgemonster right now is ringing all my scumbells. If you all are insistent on leaving joth alive I'll jump to LL and LL only.

[jotheonah]

LL being a super hedgemonster right now is ringing all my scumbells. If you all are insistent on leaving joth alive I'll jump to LL and LL only.

I don’t think I see any reason for scum!LaLight to do any of that nonsense. Scum!LaLight lalays lalow.

[raerae]

LL being a super hedgemonster right now is ringing all my scumbells. If you all are insistent on leaving joth alive I'll jump to LL and LL only.

I don’t think I see any reason for scum!LaLight to do any of that nonsense. Scum!LaLight lalays lalow.

Making me laugh isn't going to help me townread you.

[faust]

Vote: raerae

[SpaceAnemone]

Hey @LL, I think you need to give us something more on the Eevee slip! I'm still very firm in my belief that Joth scumslipped a little D1, even though people think I'm over-reading that... but I'm reading through Eevee's recent posts and not seeing anything. Not even an avatar image

[SpaceAnemone]

Haha.. faust thinks Joth is town, and is now voting for Raerae?

I'm pretty sure Raerae is town, based on how much I agree with her voting history and general conduct.

I'm less sure about faust now, especially after the way he's engaged with me lately, but really I'd rather see Joth lynched first, because I think there's info to be gained from his flip.

[Maxford]

Maxford,who do you think is towny/scummy?

Scummy: joth, faust, Galzria, Lalight, Joseph

Neutral: raerae, Eevee

Towny:  Raptor, Space?

I am pretty uncertain about most of this. I don't want to be pushing the wrong lynch given this might be our second-to-last chance to lynch scum. Although saying this, I realize maybe we should lynch joth. There is a reasonable chance that he is scum, and at the same time, his flip probably has the highest information value, which will put us in the best position for our last potential chance to lynch scum.

[SpaceAnemone]

so like

joth > Eevee > faust >>> Galzria > raerae > Maxford >>> Joseph > Space > raptor > Me

I'm okay with joth and faust being red. I want Eevee and you to be the same colour because of that comment of MiX's that he was getting confused between the two of you.. I think that means there's a high chance you're both just town.

I'm okay with Galz being yellow. Maxford is tough.. he's new and smart, and if he's scum he'll have good people like Joth and faust advising him, so it's not impossible he's scum. I think Joth's scumslip is most likely with Joth scum and Maxford town, though. This is another good reason to solve the game only after we get Joth's flip!

I do think Raerae is town, though. She's been doing a lot of townie sensible cautioning of people (right back to disliking my D1 pass-list), and like me, she was on MiX with similar justifications (I think?) from early D2, well before Raptor brought forth his evidence.

It's true that we don't know whether the scumteam was certain that MiX was their buddy, in which case Raerae could just have been voting MiX as a possible mislynch, but I like her questions about who Joth targeted N1, and the MiX answer definitely didn't seem to be crafted to help the scumteam... except possibly in the very unlikely world in which Joth isn't scum. Could we just agree to suspect Raerae more if Joth doesn't flip scum, and then get on with lynching him because he's actually scum?

PPE 1

[SpaceAnemone]

Space Count

jotheonah (4): raerae, Joseph2302, SpaceAnemone, LaLight
Eevee (1): jotheonah
raerae (1): faust
Not Voting (4): Galzria, Xxraptorslayer96, Maxford, Eevee

[raerae]

so like

joth > Eevee > faust >>> Galzria > raerae > Maxford >>> Joseph > Space > raptor > Me

I'm okay with joth and faust being red. I want Eevee and you to be the same colour because of that comment of MiX's that he was getting confused between the two of you.. I think that means there's a high chance you're both just town.

I'm okay with Galz being yellow. Maxford is tough.. he's new and smart, and if he's scum he'll have good people like Joth and faust advising him, so it's not impossible he's scum. I think Joth's scumslip is most likely with Joth scum and Maxford town, though. This is another good reason to solve the game only after we get Joth's flip!

I do think Raerae is town, though. She's been doing a lot of townie sensible cautioning of people (right back to disliking my D1 pass-list), and like me, she was on MiX with similar justifications (I think?) from early D2, well before Raptor brought forth his evidence.

It's true that we don't know whether the scumteam was certain that MiX was their buddy, in which case Raerae could just have been voting MiX as a possible mislynch, but I like her questions about who Joth targeted N1, and the MiX answer definitely didn't seem to be crafted to help the scumteam... except possibly in the very unlikely world in which Joth isn't scum. Could we just agree to suspect Raerae more if Joth doesn't flip scum, and then get on with lynching him because he's actually scum?

PPE 1

Gotta say, I don't love you setting me up for tomorrow for essentially having the same thoughts as you...

[SpaceAnemone]

Gotta say, I don't love you setting me up for tomorrow for essentially having the same thoughts as you...

Heh, sorry! I wasn't really looking at it that way, I was just trying to head off the most obvious criticism I could see coming my way from the likes of faust because of the point I'd been making... the expected criticism being that it's not necessarily fair to townread you for voting MiX when scum!you would not necessarily have known he was your buddy.

I really don't feel like there's a very big risk of Joth flipping town, so I'm okay with my townread on you just now :-)

[Eevee]

vote: joth
L-1

[LaLight]

This might not be very relevant currently, but faust and LL being two independently scummy people, I think there's a high probability exactly one of them is scum.

This looks like you know for sure.

[LaLight]

if a better option presents itself.

Here's a suggestion: Why don't you present a better option?

I would if I had one, right? Or I'm scum.

So, to answer your question: I don't have one.

So you don't have one, so you're scum, am i reading this right?

[Joseph2302]

if a better option presents itself.

Here's a suggestion: Why don't you present a better option?

I would if I had one, right? Or I'm scum.

So, to answer your question: I don't have one.

So you don't have one, so you're scum, am i reading this right?

That would be the correct logical outcome of that statement

[Joseph2302]

Joth is displaying all the signs of a given up scum

[Joseph2302]

Although I wouldn't mind prolonging this day all the way to deadline, simply so the night time would be partially during my VLA this weekend

[SpaceAnemone]

Joth is displaying all the signs of a given up scum

Well, it's early on their side of the pond.

Maxford could come in and get his first hammer, though :-)

I'm about to disappear into several hours of back-to-back meetings.. maybe the excitement will have woken up by the time I'm done.

PPE 1

[Joseph2302]

If joth flips scum (which I expect), then today seems like scum buddying from faust

Faust has said joth is town, and tried to divert attention to other wagons instead. When we have an almost dead certain scum lynch with joth

PPE: 1

[Joseph2302]

Joth is displaying all the signs of a given up scum

Well, it's early on their side of the pond.

Maxford could come in and get his first hammer, though :-)

I'm about to disappear into several hours of back-to-back meetings.. maybe the excitement will have woken up by the time I'm done.

PPE 1

Last 2 or 3 days of joth posting have mostly been given up scum posting. No trying to even fight a lynch

[SpaceAnemone]

Although I wouldn't mind prolonging this day all the way to deadline, simply so the night time would be partially during my VLA this weekend

I feel like you're trying to bait people into getting cold feet and jumping off the wagon. Let's not do that!

[Joseph2302]

Although I wouldn't mind prolonging this day all the way to deadline, simply so the night time would be partially during my VLA this weekend

I feel like you're trying to bait people into getting cold feet and jumping off the wagon. Let's not do that!

Nope, I support the wagon 100%
But if it hammers now, D4 starts on Thursday and I'm away for half of it. Which sucks for me
Whereas if we lynch joth on Thursday, then I'm only way 1-2 days of D4

[Joseph2302]

Woop woop, I'm reply #1000

[Eevee]

This might not be very relevant currently, but faust and LL being two independently scummy people, I think there's a high probability exactly one of them is scum.

This looks like you know for sure.

I do not, and it’s not based on any power role results. They just seem to be really aggressively suspecting each other, where it would make sense that either is doing it to protect themself and to discredit their accuser.

Feeling pretty good that joth is scum after thinking about the game last night in bed. I’m fine with a hammer or fine with more talking.

[Joseph2302]

This might not be very relevant currently, but faust and LL being two independently scummy people, I think there's a high probability exactly one of them is scum.

This looks like you know for sure.

I do not, and it’s not based on any power role results. They just seem to be really aggressively suspecting each other, where it would make sense that either is doing it to protect themself and to discredit their accuser.

Feeling pretty good that joth is scum after thinking about the game last night in bed. I’m fine with a hammer or fine with more talking.

I agree that there's probably a scum in {LL, faust}. They don't seem towny to me and they also don't seem like they're on the same team

[Joseph2302]

Vote: joth

[Maxford]

Vote: joth

Isn't this your vote already?

[Maxford]

Joth, have you given up on defending yourself at this point? I'm withholding my vote for you to speak up

[faust]

Vote: joth

Isn't this your vote already?

It's a little trick that Joseph tries to pull every single time.

[jotheonah]

is continuing to defend myself going to do any good?

I've never seen a town with their minds more made up.

Guess what, Joseph? Given up town is a thing too. In fact it's more of a thing. If I were scum right now, I'd be fighting tooth and nail. Y'all have seen me as caught scum, I do not go down easy. This is town joth who screwed up pretty bad who is basically resigned to the lynch, but is stopping short of actually self-hammering because he doesn't want to be anti-town.

I actually was hoping that last night I would have time to do some serious re-reading and try to build a good case on someone else. Unfortunately, do to real-world job burnout stuff, I just didn't have the time or energy. I actually had my phone out in bed working on a re-read when my wife took it out of my hands, replaced it with a book, and told me I would sleep better with less screens before bed. And, you know, she wasn't wrong.

I don't want to drag this out any more than y'all do. But I'm not scum. I can't promise I will get to my reread tonight either. But I'll try.

Again, in case you care at all after I flip, here's what I think about who is scum:

scummiest:
Eevee
Joseph

I'd buy as scum:
faust
Space
LaLight

null:
Maxford
Galzria

towniest:
Raptor
raerae

Don't be nasty, guys. You'll just feel shitty about it after I flip green.

[faust]

Galzria has been prodded 2 times. When can we expect a replacement or modkill?

6. A prod may be requested in the game thread by any player, after a player has gone 24 hours without posting in the game thread. Players are subject to replacement or Mod Killed after one prod.

[Joseph2302]

Galzria has been prodded 2 times. When can we expect a replacement or modkill?

6. A prod may be requested in the game thread by any player, after a player has gone 24 hours without posting in the game thread. Players are subject to replacement or Mod Killed after one prod.

This seems like an easy way for joth to survive today.... Mod kill ends the day, right?

[Joseph2302]

Don't be nasty, guys. You'll just feel shitty about it after I flip green.

I don't think I have been nasty, if I have then I apologise

[faust]

Galzria has been prodded 2 times. When can we expect a replacement or modkill?

6. A prod may be requested in the game thread by any player, after a player has gone 24 hours without posting in the game thread. Players are subject to replacement or Mod Killed after one prod.

This seems like an easy way for joth to survive today.... Mod kill ends the day, right?

Not usually, though it's really up to the mod and depends on the game state. I don't think we have an established protocol there.

[Maxford]

is continuing to defend myself going to do any good?

I've never seen a town with their minds more made up.

Guess what, Joseph? Given up town is a thing too. In fact it's more of a thing. If I were scum right now, I'd be fighting tooth and nail. Y'all have seen me as caught scum, I do not go down easy. This is town joth who screwed up pretty bad who is basically resigned to the lynch, but is stopping short of actually self-hammering because he doesn't want to be anti-town.

I actually was hoping that last night I would have time to do some serious re-reading and try to build a good case on someone else. Unfortunately, do to real-world job burnout stuff, I just didn't have the time or energy. I actually had my phone out in bed working on a re-read when my wife took it out of my hands, replaced it with a book, and told me I would sleep better with less screens before bed. And, you know, she wasn't wrong.

I don't want to drag this out any more than y'all do. But I'm not scum. I can't promise I will get to my reread tonight either. But I'll try.

Again, in case you care at all after I flip, here's what I think about who is scum:

scummiest:
Eevee
Joseph

I'd buy as scum:
faust
Space
LaLight

null:
Maxford
Galzria

towniest:
Raptor
raerae

Don't be nasty, guys. You'll just feel shitty about it after I flip green.

Okay, I don't see why I would end the day sooner then. Part of my reason why I want to vote for you is for the value of information, so I suppose I can wait and see if you have time to do the re-reading you're mentioning.

Also, I'm curious about why you'd think Space might be scum.

[faust]

Oh, Request prod on Raptor

It would be nice to get the perspective of an IC before we lynch the player who might guarantee his survival.

[jotheonah]

I'm used to Space being pretty aggressive in pursuing a case. But this game I'm picking up something from them, almost like they're forcing themselves to keep it light, to not go after anyone too hard. Maybe I'm imagining it, but I'm picking up a sort of low-level self-consciousness that I would expect from scum.

Space is very analytical and pretty confident in their ability to build a case against someone. When someone like that moves from "finding the truth" mode to "building an argument for my purposes, without regard for the truth" mode, they can very easily go full Robocop. So you would expect some artificial tempering, feigned unsureness, performative hedging.

You know Space pretty well -- do you see any of that from their play?

[faust]

Faust has said joth is town, and tried to divert attention to other wagons instead. When we have an almost dead certain scum lynch with joth

PPE: 1

Seems like an effort in futility though. Surely scum!me would have seen that joth cannot be saved. [Cue the next step argument where I'm protecting scum!joth for the towncred.]

[faust]

I'm used to Space being pretty aggressive in pursuing a case. But this game I'm picking up something from them, almost like they're forcing themselves to keep it light, to not go after anyone too hard. Maybe I'm imagining it, but I'm picking up a sort of low-level self-consciousness that I would expect from scum.

I've felt that Space is pushing harder than normal, actually. Can you say where you're picking this up from?

[jotheonah]

It's pretty pervasive. Here's a recent example:

Haha.. faust thinks Joth is town, and is now voting for Raerae?

I'm pretty sure Raerae is town, based on how much I agree with her voting history and general conduct.

I'm less sure about faust now, especially after the way he's engaged with me lately, but really I'd rather see Joth lynched first, because I think there's info to be gained from his flip.

I'm pretty sure, I'm less sure, I want this flip but for information...

Also, this thing from raerae is not nothing:

Gotta say, I don't love you setting me up for tomorrow for essentially having the same thoughts as you...

And Space backs off dramatically after raerae points it out. For the record, I do not think you should go after raerae after I flip town.

[faust]

I see. But not of that actually relates to the case on you, right? Space seems pretty adamant in that regard. That said, I didn't really understand what Space meant to express with that whole "I'm less sure about faust now" paragraph.

[Maxford]

I'm used to Space being pretty aggressive in pursuing a case. But this game I'm picking up something from them, almost like they're forcing themselves to keep it light, to not go after anyone too hard. Maybe I'm imagining it, but I'm picking up a sort of low-level self-consciousness that I would expect from scum.

Space is very analytical and pretty confident in their ability to build a case against someone. When someone like that moves from "finding the truth" mode to "building an argument for my purposes, without regard for the truth" mode, they can very easily go full Robocop. So you would expect some artificial tempering, feigned unsureness, performative hedging.

You know Space pretty well -- do you see any of that from their play?

I know real life Space, and I've never seen them playing a mafia-like game before. I can see Space being very analytical and pretty confident, but what if there is less information to analyse in this game than in other mafia games? They've kept repeating that we can't really make any inference based on the wagons, but I'm not sure if that's true or just a convenient claim to avoid doing this type of analysis.

[SpaceAnemone]

Okay, I don't see why I would end the day sooner then. Part of my reason why I want to vote for you is for the value of information, so I suppose I can wait and see if you have time to do the re-reading you're mentioning.

I like the way you're just innocently calling his bluff here :-P

Waiting for the IC to weigh in is a perfectly reasonable, if that's a thing you want to wait for. However, if you're with the rest of us and think that Joth is really likely to be scum, then it's also quite a good thing just to get the hammer done before other people get cold feet, or before scum baits people into switching.

Raptor has already said he didn't have another shot, so I don't think we can expect any more last-minute PR info to assist us. And we're not waiting for Joth to claim anything more, since he did all that D1.

[SpaceAnemone]

They've kept repeating that we can't really make any inference based on the wagons, but I'm not sure if that's true or just a convenient claim to avoid doing this type of analysis.

I can made weak inferences, and I'm acting on them, but there isn't anything I can weave into an airtight case, if that makes sense.

I think my response to Galz's wagon analysis at #811 should have told you that I know what I'm looking at on the wagons, and that I had doubts about the conclusions. I do actually agree that there's a strong chance of at least one scum in {faust, Joseph}, for instance, and some of the evidence for that comes from the Shraeye wagon.

As for other wagons, I'd really like to know for sure that Joth flips scum before reading other stuff into them. It would be the icing on the cake if he flips any kind of scum cop role.

[Swowl]

Sorry all!
MOD had a busy couple days. I will start to look for a replacement now, in case that needs to happen.

Additionally, Raptor has been prodded. 

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Oh, Request prod on Raptor

It would be nice to get the perspective of an IC before we lynch the player who might guarantee his survival.

Give me the afternoon, Yesterday was holiday is the states and I was in the city with family. I had less time then I though.

[faust]

Oh, Request prod on Raptor

It would be nice to get the perspective of an IC before we lynch the player who might guarantee his survival.

Give me the afternoon, Yesterday was holiday is the states and I was in the city with family. I had less time then I though.

Yesterday was a holiday in the states?! Noone told me! I didn't get a holiday.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count

jotheonah (5): raerae, Joseph2302, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Eevee
Eevee (1): jotheonah
raerae (1): faust
Not Voting (4): Galzria, Xxraptorslayer96, Maxford


Let me do a quick analysis of my own wagon, since I know scum is champing at the bit right now to get my lynch through.

Vote 1, from raerae:

I'm buying nothing that joth is selling. MiX was dynamite fishing for PRs here and joth called him out on it.

am I at L-1? do I need to claim?

You're at L-2 and you needed to claim like 3 days ago.

Somebody really wants to know what the PRs are, huh?

Then says,

I was planning not to protect anyone tonight, tbh, since no one itt is towny enough to be an obvious nightkill.

I guess now I'm an obvious nightkill. Maybe I can self-target.

Indicating he knows he shouldn't use his power N1.  So tell me, what self-respecting doctor uses their power when they're likely to be the NK on the guy they think is trying to force claims?

Vote: joth

This comes fairly late in the day after a lot of people have publicly scumread me or insinuated they think I'm scum. But raerae is the first to lay a vote down. She does it with a solid case and a lot of explanation. Could be scum, knowing town needs a push to get a real wagon going. But like I said, I have been townreading raerae, so I think its earnest townie scumhunting (which happens to be wrong, but none of the logic is bad).

Vote 2, from Joseph:

...

I agree, this seems like bullshit- well spotted raerae
Vote: joth

Just a hop-on sheep vote. Second on the wagon is a great place for scum to be, makes it into a real wagon, generates momentum.

Vote 3, Space

As before, I think there's a good chance that Joth is scum, but it's especially backed up by the way MiX behaved on the Joth wagon at the end of D1.

You're going to have to explain that some more.

I think I already put forward a case on Joth, stated a bunch of suspicion around his oh-so-convenient claim, and pointed out that MiX's illogical and unhelpful behaviour on that wagon -- which he himself admitted later was anti-town -- looked a lot like trying to move the lynch towards Shraeye and away from Joth.

Now I'm pointing out that we know for sure that MiX knew exactly who all the scum are, so his behaviour on the Joth wagon looks even more suspicious, meaning my suspicion on Joth is strong coming into D3.

Is there anything here you feel doesn't follow logically?

Why are you not voting for him then?

Laziness :-P Well, at the time it was only a few hours into D3, and no votes were flying yet.

Vote: Joth

This one is interesting. Space was definitely pushing my lynch without laying a vote down, and then lays the vote down when called out. I tend to find this scummier than not: As long as they weren't voting, they had options and weren't on record with the lynch. They're also in a position where they can hammer, and scum would love to be in a position to hammer here.

Also, specifically saying they didn't vote because no one was voting yet is interesting. Space, why does the lack of votes so far prevent you from voting for a scumread?

Notable non-vote, Eevee

Joth, I thought Mix was very scummy coming off day 1, so raerae's inquiry feels very relevant to me. If you can't come up with a convincing explanation for protecting him, I think I'm going to vote for you.

You have 24 hours.

<<faust: why not vote?>>

No particular reason, trying to be careful with my votes with such high portion of our population being scum. And I wanted to make what I imagined to be wa Taken joke, which, upon googling, isn’t even a line from that movie.

I'm a very very easy mislynch right now. If I'm scum, I'm frustrated that it's taking so long, I'm trying to figure out how I can push it along without seeming scummy, and I'm holding off my vote because the more town on the wagon the better. I probably make a post like this.

Vote 4, LaLight

Right, I have some things to say, right after vote: joth

I gotta say town on this one. LaLight's clearly not overthinking this, just jumping on a wagon he thinks is on scum before moving on to other things on his mind. No hedging, no strategery.

Vote 5, Eevee

vote: joth
L-1

scummmmmy impatient Eevee did his due diligence with the hedgey warning post now he just wants to push the dang mislynch through already. Boy, I know that feel.

And now my fate rests in the hands of Maxford, who I actually think is town. Concluding thoughts in another post because people don't love wall posts.

[LaLight]

if a better option presents itself.

Here's a suggestion: Why don't you present a better option?

I would if I had one, right? Or I'm scum.

So, to answer your question: I don't have one.

So you don't have one, so you're scum, am i reading this right?

That would be the correct logical outcome of that statement

I feel like Eevee is one of the nicest people who doesn't like to lie so much he tries to not lie technically. I do this also sometimes.

[jotheonah]

Based on a read of today, I think the scum team consists of Joseph, Eevee, and faust or Joseph, Eevee, and Space.

faust believes very seriously in splitting scum teams on wagons, so if both his partners are on my wagon, he not only wants to be off of it, he's willing to be off of it in a big way because there's no way he changes his mind and he might as well milk that town red from my flip. I actually think this is quite likely, having just played a game on a team with faust as scum.

If it's Joseph, Eevee, and Space, they are so confident in my lynchability that they're willing to all be on the wagon and they think they can get a town to hammer. And, like, I would take that bet. Even if Maxford or raptor doesn't, faust or Galz will do it at deadline to get a lynch through.

One last thing, I am upgrading LaLight to town on my reads list. There is no way that scum pushes a wagon on town with the level of certainty he's expressing.

[faust]

I just played a game with him as my scum partner. This thing he’s doing with me, where he sort of dances around defending me but still leaves himself lots of room to advocate my lynch, it fits the profile.

faust believes very seriously in splitting scum teams on wagons, so if both his partners are on my wagon, he not only wants to be off of it, he's willing to be off of it in a big way because there's no way he changes his mind and he might as well milk that town red from my flip.

It cannot be both of these. I think you are just fitting your story to the behaviour you observe. Also I don't think I will get any towncred from your flip, unfortunately.

[jotheonah]

I just played a game with him as my scum partner. This thing he’s doing with me, where he sort of dances around defending me but still leaves himself lots of room to advocate my lynch, it fits the profile.

faust believes very seriously in splitting scum teams on wagons, so if both his partners are on my wagon, he not only wants to be off of it, he's willing to be off of it in a big way because there's no way he changes his mind and he might as well milk that town cred from my flip.

It cannot be both of these. I think you are just fitting your story to the behaviour you observe. Also I don't think I will get any towncred from your flip, unfortunately.

That's fair. I think I had you on the first one before, but since then you've become more overt in your defense of me.

And I am trying to see that you don't

[faust]

I can see that raerae isn't happening today, not with joth's hard townread. I want to point out the scumminess of this post for posterity though:

LL being a super hedgemonster right now is ringing all my scumbells. If you all are insistent on leaving joth alive I'll jump to LL and LL only.

And with that, vote: Eevee

[jotheonah]

tbh my hard townread got a little softer in my reread of today. And faust, I badly want to believe that you are town.

People who are scumreading me, why would I claim to have used my shot on MiX? Why would I claim to not have any more shots, after I left myself open with the X-shot thing in my original claim? If I were scum here, why wouldn't I be playing the "keep me alive so I can use my last shot" card here?

[Eevee]

if a better option presents itself.

Here's a suggestion: Why don't you present a better option?

I would if I had one, right? Or I'm scum.

So, to answer your question: I don't have one.

So you don't have one, so you're scum, am i reading this right?

That would be the correct logical outcome of that statement

I feel like Eevee is one of the nicest people who doesn't like to lie so much he tries to not lie technically. I do this also sometimes.

I don't get this.

I thought the question was redundant - if I'm town and have a better wagon in mind, I'm obviously presenting it. Because I haven't presented one, it means that either I'm scum and lying or I didn't have a better wagon in mind. Latter is true, but it's obviously what I'd say either way.

I'm town btw. Also I'm not scum.

[raerae]

I can see that raerae isn't happening today, not with joth's hard townread. I want to point out the scumminess of this post for posterity though:

LL being a super hedgemonster right now is ringing all my scumbells. If you all are insistent on leaving joth alive I'll jump to LL and LL only.

And with that, vote: Eevee

Yup, just reposting something I've said is the best way to explain how scummy said post is. If you actually want a lunch to go through you've got to make a case, otherwise you're just making noise.

[Eevee]

I think no one has reread Mix today? I'll take that project on once I'm done playing poker (hey flavor!) unless I'm too spent.

[faust]

I can see that raerae isn't happening today, not with joth's hard townread. I want to point out the scumminess of this post for posterity though:

LL being a super hedgemonster right now is ringing all my scumbells. If you all are insistent on leaving joth alive I'll jump to LL and LL only.

And with that, vote: Eevee

Yup, just reposting something I've said is the best way to explain how scummy said post is. If you actually want a lunch to go through you've got to make a case, otherwise you're just making noise.

Well, I didn't see an avenue for your lynch today, but if you want me to make a case on you... sure. The whole thing was disingenuous; you're trying to push a lynch on someone who just softclaimed while at the same time suggestion the false idea that "you all are insistent on leaving joth alive" when in fact I was the only one to make that argument. But I guess if the majority of the joth pushers are your scummates then having one townie arguing against it might seem like considerable opposition.

[Eevee]

I can see that raerae isn't happening today, not with joth's hard townread. I want to point out the scumminess of this post for posterity though:

LL being a super hedgemonster right now is ringing all my scumbells. If you all are insistent on leaving joth alive I'll jump to LL and LL only.

And with that, vote: Eevee

Yup, just reposting something I've said is the best way to explain how scummy said post is. If you actually want a lunch to go through you've got to make a case, otherwise you're just making noise.

Well, I didn't see an avenue for your lynch today, but if you want me to make a case on you... sure. The whole thing was disingenuous; you're trying to push a lynch on someone who just softclaimed while at the same time suggestion the false idea that "you all are insistent on leaving joth alive" when in fact I was the only one to make that argument. But I guess if the majority of the joth pushers are your scummates then having one townie arguing against it might seem like considerable opposition.

While I think raerae is townier than faust overall, this is spot on from faust.

[Joseph2302]

I think no one has reread Mix today? I'll take that project on once I'm done playing poker (hey flavor!) unless I'm too spent.

I tried a bit of a reread but didn't find much
Other than ot made me want to lynch joth more

[raerae]

I can see that raerae isn't happening today, not with joth's hard townread. I want to point out the scumminess of this post for posterity though:

LL being a super hedgemonster right now is ringing all my scumbells. If you all are insistent on leaving joth alive I'll jump to LL and LL only.

And with that, vote: Eevee

Yup, just reposting something I've said is the best way to explain how scummy said post is. If you actually want a lunch to go through you've got to make a case, otherwise you're just making noise.

Well, I didn't see an avenue for your lynch today, but if you want me to make a case on you... sure. The whole thing was disingenuous; you're trying to push a lynch on someone who just softclaimed while at the same time suggestion the false idea that "you all are insistent on leaving joth alive" when in fact I was the only one to make that argument. But I guess if the majority of the joth pushers are your scummates then having one townie arguing against it might seem like considerable opposition.

Eye. Roll. Nobody's done anything else today. I made the case and while people seem in support of a joth lunch they haven't (generally) done much more than say, "Good catch, raerae, we'll think about it." Nobody has brought forth any real alternatives other than saying, "Hey, LL's being a little lurky, how about we vote there?" I'm frustrated today is still happening but NOTHING is happening so, yeah, it does seem like somebody doesn't want joth to die but nobody has come out and said it's because they think he's town. You keep dancing around it but you mostly just say it's a bad idea and then throw an unsupported vote elsewhere.

[faust]

You keep dancing around it but you mostly just say it's a bad idea and then throw an unsupported vote elsewhere.

I think joth is town, and a bad lynch.

Not sure how much clearer I need to be.

[faust]

it does seem like somebody doesn't want joth to die

Not the same as "you all are insistent on keeping joth alive".

[raerae]

You keep dancing around it but you mostly just say it's a bad idea and then throw an unsupported vote elsewhere.

I think joth is town, and a bad lynch.

Not sure how much clearer I need to be.

You could start with giving an actual reason. I know that goes against the faust code but might be fun to give it a shot.

[raerae]

it does seem like somebody doesn't want joth to die

Not the same as "you all are insistent on keeping joth alive".

Not all that different from my perspective. Saying he's probably scum and not presenting any alternatives certainly seems like trying to keep him alive.

[LaLight]

It's 11 minutes of my birthday! Beast present would be eliminating scum

[Eevee]

Poker session could best be characterized as nasty, short and brutish, time to reread. Keep in mind that Mix knew who the scum are, but they wouldn't know he's their traitor.

Mix, a summary by Eevee:

RVS vote on shraeye

RVS vote on raerae after she votes for shraeye

RVS vote on Joseph (noting it's not a very good vote)

First vote I'd categorize as real, who knows, on Raptor

Calls joth's analysis laughably bad (mean! fwiw joth I know we've been disagreeing a bunch in this game but it's all love from me. <3 sorry if i'm wrong about you), votes for joth

says LaLight and me are one and the same for him, votes for LL

goes back to voting joth, when joth asks what the case on him is mix calls joth scummy for not being memorable and posting lengthy of posts of nothing.

Calls Joseph wagon bad, asks "what's it a counterwagon to, joth?", asks how many more votes it'd take to lynch Joseph (he was at l-6)

is upset at joth for voting for him, asking joth to do something "that lets me untunnel man", asks why joth votes for him.

unvotes joth and "assumes he's right about something"

asks faust if he wants to lynch joth today

chastises faust for continuing voting for joth

calls out lurkers, votes for raptor

cryptically says "joth is town but the votes are correct"

"Joth votes are silly at this point. Or are they? Vote: joth, just do your thing, that'll get the game going."

says he forgot about lalight again, votes for him

votes for galzria

says for a second time that lynching faust day1 is "just a mistake"

"I'm giving up on reading joth today. I had a theory, he shot it dead while being towny, which shot the other theory. He seems bent on being town today, and I like it."

"joth's latest post is super towny, it has everything I would expect from town!joth."

long post explaining his townread on joth, interesting given our current situation

quotes a vote count, says joth (4) is null, joseph (2) is towny and Eevee (2) is towny, votes for "his one true scumread" lalight.

faust points out shraeye is also at 2 votes, mix moves on shraeye "thats a better wagon"

explains his LL "case" as "lurking, putting votes in almost every post"

votes for joth "while i do some rereads, dont hammer!"

"i havent reread enough to unvote joth, but i really dont want to be there either"

says joth is a better wagon than LL or shraeye because "Bigger wagon, gets some pressure while I was rereading, LL wagon not going anywhere today, shraeye is a very interesting lynch that I need to actually think about"

laments on LL being unlynchable

votes shraeye (we are now at joth v shraeye for the day 1 lynch)

shraeye is put to l-1, mix votes joth "just in case"

cryptically votes for adk in the midst of the joth-shraeye situation, saying he pushed both shraeye and joth. says he'd hammer either if need be

"Don't like shraeye wagon (he's scummy, but as LL said, too fast, besides I can just go back), joth wagon is okay-ish but what else is there? Then I remembered ADK, he pushed both wagons, didn't he? Honestly I'm not sure, no time to reread atm. Maybe he's setting up the lynches?"

goes back to voting joth

joth is at l-1, mix agrees with joseph that shraeye > joth > nolynch, votes for shraeye (second time mix moved away from joth when he hit l-1?)

votes joth

says joth needed to claim like 3 days ago

votes shraeye, shraeye l-1

says shraeye should be hammered after joth claims doc


day 1 ends, shraeye is lynched

votes for faust, says he has a hunch

votes for space

"if joth is scum, that vc is very very important, but considering no counterclaim, not sure we can assume that"

"If joth is town, there's probably at least 1 scum in the shraeye wagon. If joth is scum, there's probably at least 2 scum in the shraeye wagon. Thus there's probably 1 scum in the shraeye wagon if we remove joth."

"From one point I jump from joth to shraeye to joth to shraeye to joth to shraeye...in the VCA. I'm going to omit these hops, because that was me telling joth to claim PR.

Just so people aren't surprised if I mentioned "only these people voted in this time period" and someone says "but you did"." - curious post considering mix would know joth is scum and will fakeclaim. kind of brazen if that's the case

says a faust reread came back empty, thinks there is scum in (eevee/LL/Galzria/Raptor), votes for LL for the snap vote on joth. says he had a slight townread on eevee from day 1 and doesn't want to vote for me yet

faust prompts for eevee votes, mix obliges

mix pushes for my lynch some more, calls my read list scummy and says it has an agenda behind it. hedges by saying again my day1 was towny

"eevee's "reads" are soooo weak its crazy"

vca, conclusions: "
I would definitely look into (faust, raerae, joth, LL, Eevee, Joseph, MiX) for today: all the hot wagons are here, and I think they're more useful than outside-of-early-wagon lynches given we know one of the early wagons was on the IC. From these, I would look into joth's partners to see if he could ever be scum: from my perspective a very likely one is LL just from the VCA, but also from what I remember of them voting joth and shraeye. Good lynches seem to be faust, Eevee, Joseph and me if you REALLY want to look into that, I'll admit I probably look scummy if joth's town."

says he doesn't think the shraeye wagon appeared solely due to town

raptor nails him with the result

votes for raptor, tries to float the idea of lynching outside the conflictees

says eevee is most likely scum

self hammer

[jotheonah]

So raerae, and others who feel similarly, just for fun, let's pretend that I AM town (because, you know, I am). What do you think of my analysis? Who do you think is scum? Do you agree Eevee looks the worst of anyone on my wagon?

PPE: A novel by Eevee

[raerae]

On my phone, gotta lazy quote this, how would MiX know joth would do anything specific?

"Just so people aren't surprised if I mentioned "only these people voted in this time period" and someone says "but you did"." - curious post considering mix would know joth is scum and will fakeclaim. kind of brazen if that's the case"

[Eevee]

Happy birthday LL!

Takeaways from the Mix reread:

He mentions joth A LOT. Like, just about as often as all the other players combined. There are votes all over the place, and because he was switching so frequently, it's hard to say which one's actually matter because sometimes they stick only for hours or minutes. It is noticeable that if joth was scum, Mix definitely could have pushed for shraeye more before joth's claim. I would characterize Mix day 1 as not protecting or pushing joth, just jumping from shraeye to joth seemingly not caring which is the eventual lynch. It's hard to say what Mix was trying to do, he played so chaotic.

The only real cases besides the 15 flipflops on joth I see Mix having pushed are me and LaLight. Maybe generally the lurkers (Raptor, Galzria and LaLight) also. LL is my second strongest townread behind Raptor at this point.

Some light defending on Joseph, but they weren't high leverage moments.

Faust is another one with more interaction, multiple questions back and forth and the "don't lynch faust d1" comments.


All in all, I think joth looks townier from this, Joseph scummier, faust a little bit scummier, LL townier.

[Eevee]

So raerae, and others who feel similarly, just for fun, let's pretend that I AM town (because, you know, I am). What do you think of my analysis? Who do you think is scum? Do you agree Eevee looks the worst of anyone on my wagon?

PPE: A novel by Eevee

What do you think about Mix's interactions with me before he got lynched? It would be easier for me to believe you were town if you weren't so  adamant about lynching me!

[Eevee]

On my phone, gotta lazy quote this, how would MiX know joth would do anything specific?

"Just so people aren't surprised if I mentioned "only these people voted in this time period" and someone says "but you did"." - curious post considering mix would know joth is scum and will fakeclaim. kind of brazen if that's the case"

I have no clue. It's odd.

[faust]

Hey Eevee, want to vote raerae?

[jotheonah]

So raerae, and others who feel similarly, just for fun, let's pretend that I AM town (because, you know, I am). What do you think of my analysis? Who do you think is scum? Do you agree Eevee looks the worst of anyone on my wagon?

PPE: A novel by Eevee

What do you think about Mix's interactions with me before he got lynched? It would be easier for me to believe you were town if you weren't so  adamant about lynching me!

I don't completely understand the question.

[raerae]

So raerae, and others who feel similarly, just for fun, let's pretend that I AM town (because, you know, I am). What do you think of my analysis? Who do you think is scum? Do you agree Eevee looks the worst of anyone on my wagon?

PPE: A novel by Eevee

You white knighting me is weirding me out the most (selfish viewpoint, I know). I can't see any reason for scum joth to do it but nobody's called you out for it either so, like, was that some weird plan or am I just down too many rabbit holes with this thought process? I agree, Eevee looks shade-tastic but I don't trust you and I'm not sure it's any worse than Joseph's. I don't like LL's half claim, as town there's zero point to it if he ACTUALLY thinks you're scum, just vote and save yourself from being forced into a claim. As scum, maybe he's on your team and trying to distract while also wanting to be on your wagon in a worst case scenario. I don't think Space looks all that bad though but maybe that's mostly because they've done more than just vote. We do agree on Maxford though.

[Eevee]

So raerae, and others who feel similarly, just for fun, let's pretend that I AM town (because, you know, I am). What do you think of my analysis? Who do you think is scum? Do you agree Eevee looks the worst of anyone on my wagon?

PPE: A novel by Eevee

What do you think about Mix's interactions with me before he got lynched? It would be easier for me to believe you were town if you weren't so  adamant about lynching me!

I don't completely understand the question.

Mix pushed for my lynch when there was definitely a cloud of suspicion around me, probably two-ish votes . If I'm scum, he would have known it. Would he want to risk the wagon picking up more steam?

[raerae]

On my phone, gotta lazy quote this, how would MiX know joth would do anything specific?

"Just so people aren't surprised if I mentioned "only these people voted in this time period" and someone says "but you did"." - curious post considering mix would know joth is scum and will fakeclaim. kind of brazen if that's the case"

I have no clue. It's odd.

But you said it as though it were fact which is clearly isn't since the traitor doesn't have access to the scum QT.  So why do you believe MiX would know joth would fakeclaim?

[Eevee]

Hey Eevee, want to vote raerae?

Quickly reread her, and I'm sorry but I can not. No townread from me, but I don't want to reward making sensible points and good observations with a vote. I would note that raerae has been less sassy than I would expect, which could be scum wanting to avoid unnecessary fights. Or perhaps age and motherhood have mellowed her out. (NOT calling you old raerae, just older than when we previously played!)

[Eevee]

On my phone, gotta lazy quote this, how would MiX know joth would do anything specific?

"Just so people aren't surprised if I mentioned "only these people voted in this time period" and someone says "but you did"." - curious post considering mix would know joth is scum and will fakeclaim. kind of brazen if that's the case"

I have no clue. It's odd.

But you said it as though it were fact which is clearly isn't since the traitor doesn't have access to the scum QT.  So why do you believe MiX would know joth would fakeclaim?

Mix said that he jumped around the wagons to encourage joth to claim.

[raerae]

Hey Eevee, want to vote raerae?

Quickly reread her, and I'm sorry but I can not. No townread from me, but I don't want to reward making sensible points and good observations with a vote. I would note that raerae has been less sassy than I would expect, which could be scum wanting to avoid unnecessary fights. Or perhaps age and motherhood have mellowed her out. (NOT calling you old raerae, just older than when we previously played!)

I am incredibly old and very tired, fair points, no offense taken.

[Eevee]

""From one point I jump from joth to shraeye to joth to shraeye to joth to shraeye...in the VCA. I'm going to omit these hops, because that was me telling joth to claim PR."

[raerae]

On my phone, gotta lazy quote this, how would MiX know joth would do anything specific?

"Just so people aren't surprised if I mentioned "only these people voted in this time period" and someone says "but you did"." - curious post considering mix would know joth is scum and will fakeclaim. kind of brazen if that's the case"

I have no clue. It's odd.

But you said it as though it were fact which is clearly isn't since the traitor doesn't have access to the scum QT.  So why do you believe MiX would know joth would fakeclaim?

Mix said that he jumped around the wagons to encourage joth to claim.

Ahhhhh, gotcha.

[jotheonah]

So raerae, and others who feel similarly, just for fun, let's pretend that I AM town (because, you know, I am). What do you think of my analysis? Who do you think is scum? Do you agree Eevee looks the worst of anyone on my wagon?

PPE: A novel by Eevee

What do you think about Mix's interactions with me before he got lynched? It would be easier for me to believe you were town if you weren't so  adamant about lynching me!

I don't completely understand the question.

Mix pushed for my lynch when there was definitely a cloud of suspicion around me, probably two-ish votes . If I'm scum, he would have known it. Would he want to risk the wagon picking up more steam?

I agree that's points in your favor. But MiX is also savvy enough to mix it up and do some bussing precisely to throw up some dust when we do these sorts of analyses, so I don't think it's a slam-dunk.

[Eevee]

Agreed, fair.

Again, your insistence on me being scum makes me think you're more likely to be scum. I would say I'm the second leading lynching candidate right now, seems like pushing for my lynch would be very much in your best interest if you were scum. You were taunting me earlier! "Haa your plan from your scum QT isn't working, haa!" Like, I cannot fathom you'd be so sure about it if you were town. Myself, I'm waffling back and forth because the red flags for you being scum are large and numerous, but then again there are a couple towny things that give me pause. I think this has been one of my townier games in ages, so hard to believe you'd be that certain about it if you were really town. Because it's wrong too! Generally I think town is somewhat worried about being ashamed and lynching someone who was innocent and feeling bad. Gleefully calling someone scum when you can't reasonably know feels like a scum mindset (they are not trying to figure things out, they are pushing an agenda).

[jotheonah]

Agreed, fair.

Again, your insistence on me being scum makes me think you're more likely to be scum. I would say I'm the second leading lynching candidate right now, seems like pushing for my lynch would be very much in your best interest if you were scum. You were taunting me earlier! "Haa your plan from your scum QT isn't working, haa!" Like, I cannot fathom you'd be so sure about it if you were town. Myself, I'm waffling back and forth because the red flags for you being scum are large and numerous, but then again there are a couple towny things that give me pause. I think this has been one of my townier games in ages, so hard to believe you'd be that certain about it if you were really town. Because it's wrong too! Generally I think town is somewhat worried about being ashamed and lynching someone who was innocent and feeling bad. Gleefully calling someone scum when you can't reasonably know feels like a scum mindset (they are not trying to figure things out, they are pushing an agenda).

Idk what to say, man. Maybe I'm wrong and you are town. Or maybe you are scum who was excited about my mislynch but is now realizing how bad you look if I flip town, so you are trying to get me to change my reads before I die so that town won't look your way so hard come tomorrow. If that's the case, I wouldn't worry about it. Town rarely listens to dead town once they're no longer there to advocate. Case in point, shraeye went to his grave insisting on my towniness!

[jotheonah]

I am doing nothing right now that would be in my interest were I scum. You and faust are some of the most persuadable people to get off my wagon and maybe get another wagon going and instead of trying to persuade you I'm listing you as my top scumreads. That would be very poor play from scum!joth. But town!joth rteally just needs to be honest about his reads now, even though they aren't super-convenient.

[raerae]

Agreed, fair.

Again, your insistence on me being scum makes me think you're more likely to be scum. I would say I'm the second leading lynching candidate right now, seems like pushing for my lynch would be very much in your best interest if you were scum. You were taunting me earlier! "Haa your plan from your scum QT isn't working, haa!" Like, I cannot fathom you'd be so sure about it if you were town. Myself, I'm waffling back and forth because the red flags for you being scum are large and numerous, but then again there are a couple towny things that give me pause. I think this has been one of my townier games in ages, so hard to believe you'd be that certain about it if you were really town. Because it's wrong too! Generally I think town is somewhat worried about being ashamed and lynching someone who was innocent and feeling bad. Gleefully calling someone scum when you can't reasonably know feels like a scum mindset (they are not trying to figure things out, they are pushing an agenda).

Idk what to say, man. Maybe I'm wrong and you are town. Or maybe you are scum who was excited about my mislynch but is now realizing how bad you look if I flip town, so you are trying to get me to change my reads before I die so that town won't look your way so hard come tomorrow. If that's the case, I wouldn't worry about it. Town rarely listens to dead town once they're no longer there to advocate. Case in point, shraeye went to his grave insisting on my towniness!

To be fair to accuracy of dead town reads, he also said not to lynch MiX...

[faust]

Hey Eevee, want to vote raerae?

Quickly reread her, and I'm sorry but I can not. No townread from me, but I don't want to reward making sensible points and good observations with a vote. I would note that raerae has been less sassy than I would expect, which could be scum wanting to avoid unnecessary fights. Or perhaps age and motherhood have mellowed her out. (NOT calling you old raerae, just older than when we previously played!)

How comfortable are you with your joth vote after the MiX reread?

[faust]

I am doing nothing right now that would be in my interest were I scum. You and faust are some of the most persuadable people to get off my wagon and maybe get another wagon going and instead of trying to persuade you I'm listing you as my top scumreads. That would be very poor play from scum!joth. But town!joth rteally just needs to be honest about his reads now, even though they aren't super-convenient.

Actually, it would be convenient for scum!you to scumread me since I'm not one of the people you need to convince to not lynch you.

[Eevee]

I'm comfortable.

[SpaceAnemone]

Oh, Request prod on Raptor

It would be nice to get the perspective of an IC before we lynch the player who might guarantee his survival.

Give me the afternoon, Yesterday was holiday is the states and I was in the city with family. I had less time then I though.

I think we're stalling a bit waiting for you, so it would be great to have you back! Especially if you're willing to vote :-) Maxford is perhaps too new/nervous to hammer even if he is probably town. Galz is completely MIA, and hasn't checked in here in almost 5 IRL days. Joth's obviously not going to lynch himself, and faust seems firmly entrenched in his position... the rest of us are all just sitting here looking at Joth and waiting :-P

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Okay, I'm ready to vote Joth. Is that hammer? let me just type up my reads list really quick to make sure i get it in there.

Joth - anything else that you want us to know?

[Joseph2302]

Okay, I'm ready to vote Joth. Is that hammer? let me just type up my reads list really quick to make sure i get it in there.

Joth - anything else that you want us to know?

It would be the hammer, yes

[Galzria]

I'm working on my re-read post right now, would be cool not to have a hammer before I post.

Here's the deal though: I opened the day today saying I categorically would not vote for Joth until forced into a MyLo/LyLo situation. That was before he came out with any/all continuations of his claim that make it stupid freaking convenient for him not to die at night going forward, and his apparently abhorrent decision making in using his PR.

And damn, I'll admit as he came out with each piece, one at a time, all I wanted to do was vote him more and more. Everything about his claim fits a scum narrative - he could've claimed off potentially being RB'd every night until MiX died and flipped RB. Then all of a sudden he's 2-shot with both shots used? When there's just one person left he could conceivably protect (Raptor)? I mean? Really?

But hell - these are the things that really catch me. First, Joth's extended claim today is generally unprompted, and really, really messy. Scum!Joth knows exactly how ugly that all looks. He knows full well that this might just end up with his lynch today anyway. Why in the world would Scum!Joth just... not say anything? Ok, yes, leaving the thread at large to believe him to be a full Doctor means that every single day he wakes up alive he has a hell of a lot to answer for. But as scum himself in this scenario - he can choose to kill not!Raptor!town. This gives him an easy claim of having protected Raptor, and losing the WIFOM battle with scum. At the very least though, we almost never, ever lynch scum!Joth today if he's still believed to be a full Doctor. This buys him at minimum a day. And tomorrow? Who knows. Worst case for him is he gets lynched there instead of here.

This claim is just... so... not scum.

Further, man, look at MiX's voting history against Joth on D1! He casts the very first vote against Joth, and then after moving over to LL comes back to cast vote #4 against Joth. After Joseph moves to Raerae to bring Joth down to 3, MiX unvotes to drop it to 2. Space puts Joth back to 3 and MiX jumps right back on to put Joth up to 4 again. While he then immediately leaves the wagon to vote LL, then me, then LL, then Shraeye - he finds himself landing back onto Joth eventually, this time putting Joth up to 5. From there, he ends up moving to Shraeye (putting Shraeye at 4), and he's followed very quickly by WCD, Joth and Maxford to put Shraeye at 7. He immediately drops from the Shraeye wagon onto the only other viable wagon at the time - Joth, putting Joth up to 4, and dropping Shraeye to 6. Yeah, he goes from there to ADK (making 1 vote there, instead of going faust to put faust at 2, or Joseph to put Joseph at 2), but he immediately comes back to Joth. This really does solidify Joth/Shraeye as the only two viable lynches D1. Raerae and Eevee put Joth up to 6 votes, and MiX then moves to Shraeye (7), back to Joth (6) and finally to Shraeye (7).

The point is - MiX was ALL over Joth D1. And given the opportunity semi-late to create a different wagon on faust (2 with MiX's vote) or Joseph (2 with MiX's vote), he decided to continue with his voting pattern against Joth, putting Joth at 4 and Shraeye at 6.

I simply do not believe that Joth is MiX's partner, and I think it's a mistake to lynch him here.

[Joseph2302]

Joth, galz, faust, mix scum team maybe?
When joth flips scum, that's my theory for the scum tean

[Galzria]

Going through and making my own notes, looking over VC's, and coming to conclusions. This won't be short.

---------------------------------------

Why did MiX ask LaLight about his Scum Meta, and Eevee about his Town Meta? Was he insinuating that he knew LaLight was town, or trying to get Eevee to consider his town meta? - something he would want a scum buddy to be aware of and play to. Or is this just a noise post?

This post at least indicates that MiX was very well aware of, and thinking about, meta's in general. Yes, it's a response to Eevee - but MiX kinda kickstarted the whole conversation.

And then this is interesting to me. If Joth is town, which I know some of you are hesitant to believe, MiX suggests to know this - saying of Eevee "I thought you were joth with this post so town points". This points towards a Town Joth, and is somewhat odd to me that he would be congratulating Eevee on coming across townie.

This is not a very good vote.

Vote: Joseph

This is MiX's first context-less vote. His previous two (Shraeye, Raerae), while poor, still had context. The first was clearly RVS as he suggested Shraeye stop "no voting", and the second was a direct quote of Raerae, who had just voted Shraeye.

A few posts later and again MiX references his vote on Joseph with the same phraseology: "This is not a good vote" // "My current vote isn't good" - that's definitely striking in an off-but-intentional way. This would be my first real feeling towards a scum-partner tell, but this could also be MiX struggling with tipping people he knows to be town as town (see the point on Joth above, if you take it for what it appears to be). His choice of words with "but this time it's not my fault so it should stay" is also really strange to me.

This post could be nothing, or it could suggest that Eevee & LaLight are the same faction.

While this is a less relevant point to most of you, not knowing me to be town, this is another drop in the bucket of my theory that MiX struggles with dropping knowledge of town players.

This could be nothing, or this could be buddy prompting.

Another town player called out as town.

Four different occasions where MiX pushes the "Don't lynch Faust D1" line that Space presented originally. At some point, this gets a little out of hand, yeah?

This is what I would expect as "classic" signalling to a scum partner. "You know I'm a bad lynch" is only missing a "nudge-nudge-wink-wink" at the end.

It's almost like MiX knew both the Joth & Shraeye wagons were against town and he was already looking for a scapegoat...

-----

This post from D2 makes me hesitant to believe that there are 2 of 3 Mafia (discounting Traitor here) on the Shraeye wagon from D1. MiX already knew that he himself was scum, and it was then public knowledge that ADK & WCD were town. While it's true MiX's reads and opinions are like a bag in the wind, I just am not sure he would be directing town to look for scum amongst {MiX, faust, Joseph, Maxford, Eevee, Joth} if he knew that 3 (including himself) were actually scum.

OTOH - When that post was made he was voting for Space, and subsequently moved to LL - so like I said, what MiX says in one breath doesn't always reflect what he's gonna do in the next!

--------------------------------------------------

Game Votes through D2:

Galz - Raptor (1)
MiX - Shraeye (1)
LaLight - Joseph (1)
Joseph - Space (1)
RaeRae - Shraeye (2)
MiX - Raerae (1) (Shraeye (1))
MiX - Joseph (2) (RaeRae (0))
ADK - Joseph (3)
Space - WCD (1)
ADK - Shraeye (2) (Joseph (2))
faust - ADK (1)
Eevee - LL (1)
Joth - WCD (2)
WCD - Joseph (3)
Joseph - WCD (3)
RaeRae - ADK (2) (Shraeye (1))
Eevee - RaeRae (1) (LL (0))
MiX - Raptor (2) (Joseph (2))
Joth - ADK (3) (WCD (2))
MiX - Joth (1) (Raptor (1))
LaLight - Joth (2) (Joseph (1))
Space - Raptor (2) (WCD (1))
WCD - MiX (1) (Joseph (0))
MiX - LL (1) (Joth (1))
Raptor - Galz (1)
Galz - Space (1) (Raptor (1))
Eevee - Joth (2) (Raerae (0))
Joth - Space (2) (ADK (2))
Joseph - Joth (3) (WCD (0))
MiX - Joth (4) (LL (0))
Joth - ADK (3) - (Space (1))
Shraeye - ADK (4)
RaeRae - Eevee (1) (ADK (3))
Joseph - RaeRae (1) (Joth (3))
LaLight - ADK (4) (Joth (2))
Shraeye - Joseph (1) (ADK (3))
Eevee - Joseph (2) (Joth (1))
Shraeye - ADK (4) (Joseph (1))
Raptor - Joseph (2) (Galz (0))
Galz - Joth (2) (Space (0))
faust - Joth (3) (ADK (3))
Joth - MiX (2) (ADK (2))
MiX - Unvote (Joth (2))
Joth - Unvote (MiX (1))
Maxford - Space (1)
Joth - faust (1)
MiX - Raptor (2)
Space - Joth (3) (Raptor (1))
faust - Raptor (2) (Joth (2))
LaLight - Joth (3) (ADK (1))
MiX - Joth (4) (Raptor (1))
MiX - LL (1) (Joth (3))
Joth - Galz (1) (faust (0))
MiX - Galz (2) (LL (0))
WCD - Galz (3) (MiX (0))
Joseph - MiX (1) (Raerae (0))
WCD - MiX (2) (Galz (2))
Joth - Eevee (2) (Galz (1))
Shraeye - Joth (4) (ADK (0))
faust - Shraeye (2) (Raptor (0))
MiX - LL (1) (Galz (0))
Joth - Joseph (3) (Eevee (1))
MiX - Shraeye (3) (LL (0))
MiX - Joth (5) (Shraeye (2))
Shraeye - faust (1) (Joth (4))
Joseph - Shraeye (3) (MiX (1))
Maxford - Unvote (Space (0))
Raptor - Unvote (Joseph (2))
MiX - Shraeye (4) (Joth (3))
WCD - Shraeye (5) (MiX (0))
Joth - Shraeye (6) (Joseph (1))
Maxford - Shraeye (7)
MiX - Joth (4) (Shraeye (6))
MiX - ADK (1) (Joth (3))
MiX - Joth (4) (ADK (0))
Raerae - Joth (5) (Eevee (0))
Eevee - Joth (6) (Joseph (0))
MiX - Shraeye (7) (Joth (5))
MiX - Joth (6) (Shraeye (6))
MiX - Shraeye (7) (Joth (5))
Raptor - Joth (6)
Eevee - Shraeye (8) (Joth (5))
-------------------------------
MiX - faust (1)
ADK - Joseph (1)
Eevee - faust (2)
MiX - Space (1) (faust (1))
Maxford - faust (2)
Space - MiX (1)
Joseph - MiX (2)
Joseph - Joth (1) (MiX (1))
LaLight - Joth (2)
faust - Eevee (1)
Joth - Eevee (2)
MiX - LaLight (1) (Space (0))
Raerae - MiX (2)
Joth - MiX (3) (Eevee (1))
MiX - Eevee (2) (LaLight (0))
Joth - Eevee (3) (MiX (2))
Joth - Joseph (2) (Eevee (2))
Joth - Eevee (3) (Joseph (1))
Joseph - Galz (1) (Joth (1))
faust - LaLight (1) (Eevee (2))
Raptor - MiX (3)
MiX - Raptor (1) (Eevee (1))
Eevee - MiX (4) (faust (1))
faust - MiX (5) (LaLight (0))
Joseph - MiX (6) (Galz (0))
MiX - MiX (7) (Raptor (0))

--------------------

For actual VCA's - Well, like I said, I believe that Joth is town. I'm also as certain as I could possibly be that Raptor is town. So I'm quite simply going to work from that. Feel free to disagree with either opinion - but this is what I believe to be true.

VC 1.1 - Either Maxford is scum, or all 4 scum are currently voting. It's also worth noting that at least 4 of the 6 wagons are on town players. In any case, at this early point the most scum clumping that there can be is two scum on one wagon.

EoD1 - So the pools I'm down to on each wagon are from Shraeye {faust, Joseph, Maxford, Eevee}, and from Joth {Space, LaLight, Raerae}. I do not believe Shraeye was anything close to scummy enough D1 to warrant an entire town wagon (plus MiX) to secure his lynch. That is to say, I do not believe the entire Mafia team was on Joth. Whether it's 2 Mafia on Shraeye or 2 Mafia on Joth though, I'm honestly not sure. My gut says that there were 2 on Shraeye and 1 on Joth - but then the pool on Shraeye is bigger, so that's not really saying much.

Based on my reread of MiX though, I think I'm most comfortable voting for faust here.

The biggest two things for me are:

- MiX's considerable effort to present this idea that faust is untouchable. He didn't go out of his way to make big arguments about it, but he kept hammering away at it, almost trying to ingrain it in the subconscious of everyone else.
- I think MiX was attempting to signal faust in #452:

Also, don*t leave the wagon, I need a backup plan for if the shraeye thing fails.

Ew. You know I'm a bad lynch, this is silly.

I haven't reread enough to unvote joth, but I don't really want to be there either...

More than that, like I said D2, I don't really believe that the first 5 people on the EoD lynch of Shraeye are town - it isn't a common occurrence in general, and I don't think Shraeye was scummy enough to justify 5 town piling on like that to drive the lynch without scum help. I scum read faust off the MiX reread more than I do Joseph, so that's kinda where I'm at with that.

However, my other take-aways are that I do feel like MiX was coaching and prodding Maxford at various points in D1. I think Maxford being new to forum Mafia show through in some of his hesitancy in general - but I feel like it's been a step beyond just that. I'm not convinced that all four scum were in fact voting in VC 1.1.

Beyond my reads on faust and Maxford... I'm leaning town on Eevee. I'm very null/scummy on Space & LaLight. Raerae is an absolute, complete, 100% enigma and Joseph... is either town, or MiX did a good job with him.

So yeah. Lynching Joth is bad. Lynch faust instead.

vote: faust

[Galzria]

Oh, I meant to make note: MiX never voted for exactly 3 people: WCD, Maxford & Space

[Galzria]

Oh, I meant to make note: MiX never voted for exactly 3 people: WCD, Maxford & Space

Scratch that. Missed the Space vote D2. So just WCD & Maxford.

[Joseph2302]

Oh, I meant to make note: MiX never voted for exactly 3 people: WCD, Maxford & Space

Scratch that. Missed the Space vote D2. So just WCD & Maxford.

That's some impressive not breadcrumbing from MiX then

[Joseph2302]

And scum wouldn't have known that MiX was traitor  so likely some scum on the wagon. As it seemed like an easy mislynch wagon

[jotheonah]

vote: faust

[faust]

vote: faust

You sealed your own fate I guess.

Vote: joth

[Joseph2302]

vote: faust

You sealed your own fate I guess.

Vote: joth

Surely scum!faust wouldn't be so obvious in bussing joth. Which makes me think more towny about faust now (assuming joth flips scum)

[faust]

- MiX's considerable effort to present this idea that faust is untouchable. He didn't go out of his way to make big arguments about it, but he kept hammering away at it, almost trying to ingrain it in the subconscious of everyone else.
- I think MiX was attempting to signal faust in #452

The first point would maybe be some kind of indication if there was ever a significant push to get me lynch. But there wasn't, so the whole effort was completely pointless. In fact it's less likely that MiX would tie himself to me like that without his hand being forced.

All in all, I think this is more indication of MiX trying to buddy me up since I'm usually among to people who have the most charitable reads of him.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space Count

jotheonah (6): raerae, Joseph2302, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Eevee, faust
faust (2): Galzria, jotheonah
Not Voting (2): Xxraptorslayer96, Maxford


Just checking we did finally see a hammer. I wouldn't have guessed it would come from faust.

[Joseph2302]

This wagon has had a lot of bussing I guess

[SpaceAnemone]

This wagon has had a lot of bussing I guess

It's only bussing if he's scum.

Joth, galz, faust, mix scum team maybe?
When joth flips scum, that's my theory for the scum tean

... so just faust bussing then?

[jotheonah]

Guess what? I am town.

[jotheonah]

Don't let faust off the hook for that hammer. Here's what happened:

Galzria swept in and made a great post, including a very convincing argument for my towniness. faust took the opportunity to hammer before people could start being convinced by it. He took a calculated risk that it was better to get my lynch in the bag and talk his way out tomorrow.

there's no world where that hammer with that timing comes from town faust who was aggressively townreading me moments ago.

LYNCH FAUST TOMORROW PLEASE

[Joseph2302]

Don't let faust off the hook for that hammer. Here's what happened:

Galzria swept in and made a great post, including a very convincing argument for my towniness. faust took the opportunity to hammer before people could start being convinced by it. He took a calculated risk that it was better to get my lynch in the bag and talk his way out tomorrow.

there's no world where that hammer with that timing comes from town faust who was aggressively townreading me moments ago.

LYNCH FAUST TOMORROW PLEASE

If you flip town (which I expect you too, as no need to lie after being lynched), then I agree faust hammer seems very off

[Joseph2302]

This wagon has had a lot of bussing I guess

It's only bussing if he's scum.

Joth, galz, faust, mix scum team maybe?
When joth flips scum, that's my theory for the scum tean

... so just faust bussing then?

Well I was sure joth is scum, although less sure now they're hammered and then claimed town

[Joseph2302]

Another game, another scum read on joth...

[Eevee]

ugh goddamnit

sorry we failed you joth

[faust]

Don't let faust off the hook for that hammer. Here's what happened:

Galzria swept in and made a great post, including a very convincing argument for my towniness. faust took the opportunity to hammer before people could start being convinced by it. He took a calculated risk that it was better to get my lynch in the bag and talk his way out tomorrow.

there's no world where that hammer with that timing comes from town faust who was aggressively townreading me moments ago.

LYNCH FAUST TOMORROW PLEASE

Well yes, that is what happened. After your vote, the only reasonable alternative to your lynch was mine, and however townie I might think you are, if it's me vs you then I am going to lynch you. I'm not sure why you think I would be okay with being the lynch instead.

[jotheonah]

Don't let faust off the hook for that hammer. Here's what happened:

Galzria swept in and made a great post, including a very convincing argument for my towniness. faust took the opportunity to hammer before people could start being convinced by it. He took a calculated risk that it was better to get my lynch in the bag and talk his way out tomorrow.

there's no world where that hammer with that timing comes from town faust who was aggressively townreading me moments ago.

LYNCH FAUST TOMORROW PLEASE

Well yes, that is what happened. After your vote, the only reasonable alternative to your lynch was mine, and however townie I might think you are, if it's me vs you then I am going to lynch you. I'm not sure why you think I would be okay with being the lynch instead.

oh yeah, you were the only reasonable alternative, and you knew that 100% for sure without taking any time to engage with Galz about who else he might vote for or talking to anyone else about whether Galz's case changed their mind.

[faust]

You already were at intent to hammer, let me remind you. Galzria didn't point anything out that I hadn't already - and futilely - except some point about how you could have claimed full Doctor today which you totally couldn't since you had already revealed the X-shot thing. There was no reason to think people would suddenly start listening to me, I tried to convince people to vote elsewhere for a while and it wouldn't happen. So either people would decide to pick up Galzria's case as an easy sheep or they would stay on you, in either case the best thing is for you to get lynched.

[jotheonah]

You already were at intent to hammer, let me remind you. Galzria didn't point anything out that I hadn't already - and futilely - except some point about how you could have claimed full Doctor today which you totally couldn't since you had already revealed the X-shot thing. There was no reason to think people would suddenly start listening to me, I tried to convince people to vote elsewhere for a while and it wouldn't happen. So either people would decide to pick up Galzria's case as an easy sheep or they would stay on you, in either case the best thing is for you to get lynched.

scumsayswhat

[Joseph2302]

I still don't get why joth targetted MiX N1? That just seemed like made up shit to me, which along with some other, less substantial things, made me think joth had to be scum

[jotheonah]

I still don't get why joth targetted MiX N1? That just seemed like made up shit to me, which along with some other, less substantial things, made me think joth had to be scum

Yeah, doing it was a mistake and honestly claiming it was also a mistake. I just didn’t have my head in the game. It happens.

I’m not blaming anyone but myself for this lynch. Well, I’m blaming faust and so should you, but that’s it. Myself and faust.

[Joseph2302]

I still don't get why joth targetted MiX N1? That just seemed like made up shit to me, which along with some other, less substantial things, made me think joth had to be scum

Yeah, doing it was a mistake and honestly claiming it was also a mistake. I just didn’t have my head in the game. It happens.

I’m not blaming anyone but myself for this lynch. Well, I’m blaming faust and so should you, but that’s it. Myself and faust.

I blame the EU too

[raerae]

I still don't get why joth targetted MiX N1? That just seemed like made up shit to me, which along with some other, less substantial things, made me think joth had to be scum

Yeah, doing it was a mistake and honestly claiming it was also a mistake. I just didn’t have my head in the game. It happens.

I’m not blaming anyone but myself for this lynch. Well, I’m blaming faust and so should you, but that’s it. Myself and faust.

I blame the EU too

Read this as End User and got real confused.  Regardless, if I screwed you over, joth, I'm sorry. If I'm right I'm definitely going to peacock a bit.

[Swowl]

Day 3 Final Vote Count   

Joth (6): Raerae, Joseph, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Eevee, faust
Eevee(2): Galzria, Joth

Not Voting (2): Raptor, Maxford


With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.


Flip coming shortly. I just woke up.

[Swowl]

Feel free to Twilight it up until thread locks.

[jotheonah]

If I promise not to post anymore, can I have my speccy link now ?

[Swowl]

As the town huddles around yet another Card that has been torn to pieces, the Evil Kings gather in the distance....   

   "Our numbers are nearly strong enough, but we must remain vigilant."
"Yes, yes. Spot on performance today though. Truly a masterpiece!"

One of the Evil Kings starts to chuckle, somewhat hysterically...

   "Shh! We are all pleased, but keep it down! We do not want to draw attention to ourselves!"
"Yes, indeed! Besides, what in the world is so funny?"

Still laughing, the King whispers...

   "Don't you get the irony? All they ever wanted to do was save other Cards from harms way... and now they are dead for it!"



Joth has been lynched. They were the Queen of Diamonds, the Numerically-Aligned 2-Shot Doctor.



Night 3 begins now and ends on Friday, November 15th at 12:40pm EST.
Please submit any night actions within the next 24 hours.


THREAD LOCKED!

[Swowl]

The Decks numbers are dwindling, and morale is understandably at an absolute low...

   "I just can't believe the doc is dead"
"Yes, a choice we surely all regret..."
   "Well, not ALL of us of course,"
"Yes, you are right... it is time to deal with the problem at hand head on!"
   "What do you mean?"
"Let us go and alert the authorities to the situation at hand!"

The Deck clamors in the joy of such a good idea. Then as the noise drops lower, there is a chuckle from the other side of the room....

"I am afraid, fellow Cards.... That no such thing is longer possible."


XXRaptorSlayer96 has died at Night! They were the 10 of Clubs, the Numerically-Aligned 1-Shot Cop.

[Swowl]

DAY 4 STARTS NOW!


Vote Count 4.0:

Not Voting (8 ): faust, Joseph2302, Maxford, Eevee, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae


With 8 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 4 ends on Friday, November 22nd, at 3:32pm EST.

THREAD UNLOCKED

[raerae]

Obviously this opens right before I go to work. Are we claiming today or just killing faust? Does anybody have a reason NOT to kill him?

[Joseph2302]

Obviously this opens right before I go to work. Are we claiming today or just killing faust? Does anybody have a reason NOT to kill him?

I'd support Faust lynch

[SpaceAnemone]

Yeah, I support a faust lynch.

I'm really surprised Joth flipped town, though. Sorry, Joth!

[Maxford]

Faust isn't the only scummy player out there... But let's start with the obvious choice

Vote: faust

[Eevee]

I had faust in mind as the first suspect as well.

We lynch our doctor and wake up to no night kill is.. something.

[Eevee]

Oops misread. Nevermind, this makes more sense.

[Eevee]

We may be in MyLo already. 3 scum and 5 town left.

[Galzria]

vote: Maxford

We may be in MyLo already. 3 scum and 5 town left.

Minor town points for pointing this out.

Day 3 Final Vote Count   

Joth (6): Raerae, Joseph, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Eevee, faust
Eevee(2): Galzria, Joth

Not Voting (2): Raptor, Maxford


With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.


Flip coming shortly. I just woke up.

I’m not scum, and while it is ENTIRELY possible scum all piled on to Joth (horrible, awful lynch and you should all feel bad), I’m willing to gamble that wasn’t the case.

Faust, while maybe correct that I made all the points he had made already, and maybe correct that it was set up to be him/Joth, absolutely had no reason to hammer when he did, before everybody could check in and respond. He absolutely should’ve re-engaged, as I made it clear he wasn’t the only player I was suspicious of. If Faust is town, he absolutely misplayed.

But I don’t think he’s our best chance to find scum now.

[faust]

I see that Galzria has been cast in the role of my knight in shining armor.

[faust]

Lynching me loses the game. This is what I know. I don't think I misplayed, but even if I did I am not the only one. People want to shift all the blame for the mislynch to me when in fact multiple people on that wagon were pushing to get a hammer before Galzria posted.

[Galzria]

Lynching me loses the game. This is what I know. I don't think I misplayed, but even if I did I am not the only one. People want to shift all the blame for the mislynch to me when in fact multiple people on that wagon were pushing to get a hammer before Galzria posted.

Oh don’t misunderstand on my end - I don’t put anywhere near the entire blame on you. Raptor was, sadly, likely going to hammer as well (unless he was baiting, but I don’t think so). I’m just sad that Joth went down because while the surface evidence suggested he might be scum, any real attempt at analysis made it clear that just wasn’ta thing. 😒

[raerae]

vote: Maxford

We may be in MyLo already. 3 scum and 5 town left.

Minor town points for pointing this out.

Day 3 Final Vote Count   

Joth (6): Raerae, Joseph, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Eevee, faust
Eevee(2): Galzria, Joth

Not Voting (2): Raptor, Maxford


With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.


Flip coming shortly. I just woke up.

I’m not scum, and while it is ENTIRELY possible scum all piled on to Joth (horrible, awful lynch and you should all feel bad), I’m willing to gamble that wasn’t the case.

Faust, while maybe correct that I made all the points he had made already, and maybe correct that it was set up to be him/Joth, absolutely had no reason to hammer when he did, before everybody could check in and respond. He absolutely should’ve re-engaged, as I made it clear he wasn’t the only player I was suspicious of. If Faust is town, he absolutely misplayed.

But I don’t think he’s our best chance to find scum now.

So this is a cute little defense of faust (admittedly, I asked for it) but you got anything to back up that Maxford vote?

[Maxford]

vote: Maxford

We may be in MyLo already. 3 scum and 5 town left.

Minor town points for pointing this out.

Day 3 Final Vote Count   

Joth (6): Raerae, Joseph, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Eevee, faust
Eevee(2): Galzria, Joth

Not Voting (2): Raptor, Maxford


With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.


Flip coming shortly. I just woke up.

I’m not scum, and while it is ENTIRELY possible scum all piled on to Joth (horrible, awful lynch and you should all feel bad), I’m willing to gamble that wasn’t the case.

Faust, while maybe correct that I made all the points he had made already, and maybe correct that it was set up to be him/Joth, absolutely had no reason to hammer when he did, before everybody could check in and respond. He absolutely should’ve re-engaged, as I made it clear he wasn’t the only player I was suspicious of. If Faust is town, he absolutely misplayed.

But I don’t think he’s our best chance to find scum now.

So this is a cute little defense of faust (admittedly, I asked for it) but you got anything to back up that Maxford vote?

I think Galzria's thought process is "It's very unlikely that all scum players were on joth, so at least one scum player was not. Joth is dead, Raptor is dead, I am town so Maxford must be scum".

By the same logic, I should be voting for Galzria right now. But I still think that the weight of the evidence points more strongly towards faust than Galzria, so I don't quite understand why me instead of faust.

[raerae]

I think Galzria's thought process is "It's very unlikely that all scum players were on joth, so at least one scum player was not. Joth is dead, Raptor is dead, I am town so Maxford must be scum".

By the same logic, I should be voting for Galzria right now. But I still think that the weight of the evidence points more strongly towards faust than Galzria, so I don't quite understand why me instead of faust.

I think I'll just wait to see what Galz says but interesting take.

[Galzria]

vote: Maxford

We may be in MyLo already. 3 scum and 5 town left.

Minor town points for pointing this out.

Day 3 Final Vote Count   

Joth (6): Raerae, Joseph, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Eevee, faust
Eevee(2): Galzria, Joth

Not Voting (2): Raptor, Maxford


With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.


Flip coming shortly. I just woke up.

I’m not scum, and while it is ENTIRELY possible scum all piled on to Joth (horrible, awful lynch and you should all feel bad), I’m willing to gamble that wasn’t the case.

Faust, while maybe correct that I made all the points he had made already, and maybe correct that it was set up to be him/Joth, absolutely had no reason to hammer when he did, before everybody could check in and respond. He absolutely should’ve re-engaged, as I made it clear he wasn’t the only player I was suspicious of. If Faust is town, he absolutely misplayed.

But I don’t think he’s our best chance to find scum now.

So this is a cute little defense of faust (admittedly, I asked for it) but you got anything to back up that Maxford vote?

Oooh, somebody isn’t pleased I didn’t conform to the obvious choice.

I already went through it yesterday. Maxford was my second choice behind Faust at EOD based both off of MiX’s interactions towards him, and his VCA positions. The secondary argument of:

"It's very unlikely that all scum players were on joth, so at least one scum player was not. Joth is dead, Raptor is dead, I am town so Maxford must be scum".

Is just that, secondary. Or rather, additional.

[raerae]

vote: Maxford

We may be in MyLo already. 3 scum and 5 town left.

Minor town points for pointing this out.

Day 3 Final Vote Count   

Joth (6): Raerae, Joseph, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Eevee, faust
Eevee(2): Galzria, Joth

Not Voting (2): Raptor, Maxford


With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.


Flip coming shortly. I just woke up.

I’m not scum, and while it is ENTIRELY possible scum all piled on to Joth (horrible, awful lynch and you should all feel bad), I’m willing to gamble that wasn’t the case.

Faust, while maybe correct that I made all the points he had made already, and maybe correct that it was set up to be him/Joth, absolutely had no reason to hammer when he did, before everybody could check in and respond. He absolutely should’ve re-engaged, as I made it clear he wasn’t the only player I was suspicious of. If Faust is town, he absolutely misplayed.

But I don’t think he’s our best chance to find scum now.

So this is a cute little defense of faust (admittedly, I asked for it) but you got anything to back up that Maxford vote?

Oooh, somebody isn’t pleased I didn’t conform to the obvious choice.

I already went through it yesterday. Maxford was my second choice behind Faust at EOD based both off of MiX’s interactions towards him, and his VCA positions. The secondary argument of:

"It's very unlikely that all scum players were on joth, so at least one scum player was not. Joth is dead, Raptor is dead, I am town so Maxford must be scum".

Is just that, secondary. Or rather, additional.

Sorry I don't remember every detail from the book you wrote yesterday, thanks for the recap.  So why is he now your primary suspect?

[Galzria]

vote: Maxford

We may be in MyLo already. 3 scum and 5 town left.

Minor town points for pointing this out.

Day 3 Final Vote Count   

Joth (6): Raerae, Joseph, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, Eevee, faust
Eevee(2): Galzria, Joth

Not Voting (2): Raptor, Maxford


With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.


Flip coming shortly. I just woke up.

I’m not scum, and while it is ENTIRELY possible scum all piled on to Joth (horrible, awful lynch and you should all feel bad), I’m willing to gamble that wasn’t the case.

Faust, while maybe correct that I made all the points he had made already, and maybe correct that it was set up to be him/Joth, absolutely had no reason to hammer when he did, before everybody could check in and respond. He absolutely should’ve re-engaged, as I made it clear he wasn’t the only player I was suspicious of. If Faust is town, he absolutely misplayed.

But I don’t think he’s our best chance to find scum now.

So this is a cute little defense of faust (admittedly, I asked for it) but you got anything to back up that Maxford vote?

Oooh, somebody isn’t pleased I didn’t conform to the obvious choice.

I already went through it yesterday. Maxford was my second choice behind Faust at EOD based both off of MiX’s interactions towards him, and his VCA positions. The secondary argument of:

"It's very unlikely that all scum players were on joth, so at least one scum player was not. Joth is dead, Raptor is dead, I am town so Maxford must be scum".

Is just that, secondary. Or rather, additional.

Sorry I don't remember every detail from the book you wrote yesterday, thanks for the recap.  So why is he now your primary suspect?

It was close yesterday between the two. If I was completely honest with myself yesterday, I think the interactions between MiX->Maxford were more scummy than the interactions between Mix->Faust. But faust is a known quantity to me... that is, I think I was biased to give my read on Maxford more leeway because he’s new and I know nothing about him, so I can’t quantify actions as easily. Faust, well, honestly, contrary to popular opinion that always wants/thinks him to be town, I’m *always* fighting myself to not label him Cpt. Scummy McScummyton at every turn. It’s a bias I have, and I’m aware of it, and I try to correct for it. But when game situations present themselves that offer a legitimate scum!faust narrative, I naturally gravitate towards him.

This shouldn’t be taken as a defense of Faust. By no means do I now suddenly think him to be town. But I DO think it’s more likely than Macford being town. Aside from finding MiX’s posts to Maxford as reading like they were coaching, I expressed and stand by my doubts that all scum were voting in VC 1.1, I find his position at vote #7 (L-1) on Shraeye scummy, and I don’t believe, as awful as the Joth lynch was, that it was populated with the ENTIRETY of the scum team.

This is the closest I’ll come to a “In defense of Faust” point:

If Faust is scum, he lynched Joth when he did because he was scared people would log in and respond to my post by voting him instead. This means that scum!faust believed that the people voting Joth already, or those that had expressed intent to hammer, would find my post more compelling than anything he had posted in Joth’s defense already. As he himself notes, he had already made many of the points I already made. And yet as you yourself note Raerae, you’re not intimately familiar with the details of the “book” that I wrote. So what fear did scum!faust *really* have here? Raptor (or Maxford, but I posit that’s he’s scum that didn’t want to load the wagon) was extremely likely to come in and hammer anyway.

Whereas if Faust is town it’s *extremely* bad for him to get lynched over Joth, as that results in his & Raptor’s (NK) death, which leaves Joth alive today with all the same people that were voting Joth yesterday still alive:  Raerae, Joseph, Space, LaLight, Eevee - enough to carry the lunch against someone he read as Town.

[faust]

What's really needed here is more input from Space/Joseph, who are simultaneously the most townie, most lazy and most wrong people around.

[raerae]

Okay, I went back and read your big posts and I'm a little more with you but I can't get behind MiX trying to indicate to or coach someone. Tell me if I'm losing the translation here but isn't that a not small part of your argument for Maxford being scum? That MiX was telling him what to do? I just can't see that being possible with Maxford being new and MiX being a traitor. Why would MiX bother sticking his neck out for the new kid who doesn't know him/his style/etc.? Wouldn't he single out the people who know him instead if he were trying to flag them down? If that's true, and it certainly is in my mind, your own analysis points to faust.

[Galzria]

Okay, I went back and read your big posts and I'm a little more with you but I can't get behind MiX trying to indicate to or coach someone. Tell me if I'm losing the translation here but isn't that a not small part of your argument for Maxford being scum? That MiX was telling him what to do? I just can't see that being possible with Maxford being new and MiX being a traitor. Why would MiX bother sticking his neck out for the new kid who doesn't know him/his style/etc.? Wouldn't he single out the people who know him instead if he were trying to flag them down? If that's true, and it certainly is in my mind, your own analysis points to faust.

I don’t think so. At least, I think it’s entirely possible for MiX to prod a reluctant or new player that he knows to be scum by consistently trying to get him to commit more. MiX didn’t come out and say “Yo, scumbuddy, I know you don’t know I’m your partner but I need you to do more”, but he couldn’t exactly, could he.

The reason it’s particularly scummy here is that MiX didn’t really have a reason to treat Town!Maxford the way he did. He wasn’t buddying Maxford, which is what you might expect scum!{anybody} to do to the new guy. He wasn’t trying to make friends, he was trying to get Maxford to engage. Coaching may be the wrong word, and what’s tripping you up. It’s more like nudging and guiding.

[faust]

I call raerae/Eevee/Galzria.

Well at least I'll go back and see if MiX's actions are compatible with these guys being scum.

[raerae]

Okay, I went back and read your big posts and I'm a little more with you but I can't get behind MiX trying to indicate to or coach someone. Tell me if I'm losing the translation here but isn't that a not small part of your argument for Maxford being scum? That MiX was telling him what to do? I just can't see that being possible with Maxford being new and MiX being a traitor. Why would MiX bother sticking his neck out for the new kid who doesn't know him/his style/etc.? Wouldn't he single out the people who know him instead if he were trying to flag them down? If that's true, and it certainly is in my mind, your own analysis points to faust.

I don’t think so. At least, I think it’s entirely possible for MiX to prod a reluctant or new player that he knows to be scum by consistently trying to get him to commit more. MiX didn’t come out and say “Yo, scumbuddy, I know you don’t know I’m your partner but I need you to do more”, but he couldn’t exactly, could he.

The reason it’s particularly scummy here is that MiX didn’t really have a reason to treat Town!Maxford the way he did. He wasn’t buddying Maxford, which is what you might expect scum!{anybody} to do to the new guy. He wasn’t trying to make friends, he was trying to get Maxford to engage. Coaching may be the wrong word, and what’s tripping you up. It’s more like nudging and guiding.

grumblegrumblegrumble Fine, bolded does seem likely. It still seems like a weird thing to do but, then again, MiX. And I suppose the world could exist where we're both right. I'm going to snooze on this.

[Joseph2302]

What's really needed here is more input from Space/Joseph, who are simultaneously the most townie, most lazy and most wrong people around.

I'm V/LA til Monday
faust and Galz are my two biggest scum reads right now, but not sure if they fit together as partners

Oh and the last 2-3 games, my reads have been awful too

[Joseph2302]

I call raerae/Eevee/Galzria.

Well at least I'll go back and see if MiX's actions are compatible with these guys being scum.

If you're town, then that seems like a reasonable scum team
Just not convinced you are

[Swowl]

Vote Count 4.1:

faust (1): Maxford
Maxford (1): Galzria

Not Voting (6): faust, Joseph2302, Eevee, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae


With 8 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 4 ends on Friday, November 22nd, at 3:32pm EST.

*Joseph is VLA until Monday
**The MOD is semi VLA until Monday. If you need something answered before then, please put it in personal QT to make sure I see it. Thanks.

[SpaceAnemone]

I call raerae/Eevee/Galzria.

Well at least I'll go back and see if MiX's actions are compatible with these guys being scum.

For that to be the team, then Shraeye's wagon would have had to have been six townies voting for a town, with the seventh vote cast by the traitor, while all the scums were weirdly focused on getting Joth lynched, even before his claim.

Not saying that getting Joth lynched didn't look like a good option at the time -- it was the one I was pushing for -- but why would the scum team not take the easy choice and switch to Shraeye?

[SpaceAnemone]

@Galz, weren't you arguing quite strongly for one scum between faust and Joseph, based on that same Shraeye wagon?

[SpaceAnemone]

What's really needed here is more input from Space/Joseph, who are simultaneously the most townie, most lazy and most wrong people around.

I'm townie and wrong, this much is true.

And I do think Joseph is townie, but I think I agree more with Raerae than anyone else right now. So it's odd than you pick Joseph to be town, and put her on your proposed scum team.

[Galzria]

@Galz, weren't you arguing quite strongly for one scum between faust and Joseph, based on that same Shraeye wagon?

Yes, and I still believe this to be true. But unlike you I do not read Joseph as townie. I thought after my MiX read that if Joseph is scum, then MiX did well by him - but that’s entirely possible.

[SpaceAnemone]

@Galz, weren't you arguing quite strongly for one scum between faust and Joseph, based on that same Shraeye wagon?

Yes, and I still believe this to be true. But unlike you I do not read Joseph as townie. I thought after my MiX read that if Joseph is scum, then MiX did well by him - but that’s entirely possible.

Okay, so what do you think of faust saying that he thinks Joseph is townie, then? Shouldn't scum!faust want to paint town!Joseph as scummy? Or town!faust be really quite suspicious of Joseph for the same reason you're suspicious of one of the pair of them?

[Eevee]

Drunk ama.

[raerae]

Drunk ama.

Still committed to faust? Got any other ideas?

[Eevee]

For one, I'd be interested to hear more from whatever LL softclaimed last night.

Faust looks scummy for the hammer.

[raerae]

For one, I'd be interested to hear more from whatever LL softclaimed last night.

Faust looks scummy for the hammer.

Whatcha think about Galz' argument? How's Space look to you?

[Eevee]

Galzria's argument looks towny, which is always suspicious, obviously.

Space has always been tough to read for me. I guess PoE scum at this point. I don't trust any of you all.

[raerae]

Galzria's argument looks towny, which is always suspicious, obviously.

Space has always been tough to read for me. I guess PoE scum at this point. I don't trust any of you all.

If LL claims do you want everybody to claim?

[Galzria]

@Galz, weren't you arguing quite strongly for one scum between faust and Joseph, based on that same Shraeye wagon?

Yes, and I still believe this to be true. But unlike you I do not read Joseph as townie. I thought after my MiX read that if Joseph is scum, then MiX did well by him - but that’s entirely possible.

Okay, so what do you think of faust saying that he thinks Joseph is townie, then? Shouldn't scum!faust want to paint town!Joseph as scummy? Or town!faust be really quite suspicious of Joseph for the same reason you're suspicious of one of the pair of them?

You’re asking me why I think faust’s reads would differ from my reads? Faust doesn’t see any reason why 5 or 6 or 7 Town couldn’t all be on or at the front of a wagon. In a sense, he’s right - they could be. I just don’t believe that actually happens all that frequently. Votes are not independent & random dice rolls, but he’ll often act like they are, especially in the absence of information.

Now, we’re not playing in an absence of information, and he’s as entitled to his reads as anybody else. So I don’t find him any MORE scummy for thinking Joseph is town - I just think that if Faust himself is town then he’s wrong about his read on Joseph.

[Galzria]

@Galz, weren't you arguing quite strongly for one scum between faust and Joseph, based on that same Shraeye wagon?

Yes, and I still believe this to be true. But unlike you I do not read Joseph as townie. I thought after my MiX read that if Joseph is scum, then MiX did well by him - but that’s entirely possible.

Okay, so what do you think of faust saying that he thinks Joseph is townie, then? Shouldn't scum!faust want to paint town!Joseph as scummy? Or town!faust be really quite suspicious of Joseph for the same reason you're suspicious of one of the pair of them?

You’re asking me why I think faust’s reads would differ from my reads? Faust doesn’t see any reason why 5 or 6 or 7 Town couldn’t all be on or at the front of a wagon. In a sense, he’s right - they could be. I just don’t believe that actually happens all that frequently. Votes are not independent & random dice rolls, but he’ll often act like they are, especially in the absence of information.

Now, we’re not playing in an absence of information, and he’s as entitled to his reads as anybody else. So I don’t find him any MORE scummy for thinking Joseph is town - I just think that if Faust himself is town then he’s wrong about his read on Joseph.

I’m actually surprised more (all?) of you aren’t more adamant that there should be scum between {Galzria, Maxford} - being the only two off a wagon that you all were on. Given any argument starts from your own perspective of being Town, then unless you believe you shared a wagon with all three remaining scum, then one of Maxford or I (or you might argue both) should be scum.

That is, while I do believe Maxford is scum because I don’t believe all three scum were on the Joth wagon (amongst other reasons), it is at least MORE likely to me that I’m wrong and they all piled on than it should be to the town of you on that wagon - as you know you’re Town and I don’t.

[LaLight]

Why are we not no lynching? We're in MyLo

[LaLight]

I don't want to claim yet

[Joseph2302]

Why are we not no lynching? We're in MyLo

I was thinking this as well

Right now, we're 5/3 l, and if we mislynch we get endgamed (that's what MYLO means after all)
If we no lynch, we're 4/3, which increases odds of successful lynch tomorrow

[raerae]

I don't want to claim yet

What's the difference between today and yesterday? You sure sounded like you were interested in dropping some knowledge on us then.

[faust]

Why are we not no lynching? We're in MyLo

I was thinking this as well

Right now, we're 5/3 l, and if we mislynch we get endgamed (that's what MYLO means after all)
If we no lynch, we're 4/3, which increases odds of successful lynch tomorrow

I depends on whether we think we could prevent a nightkill down the road. If we can, then it's better to lynch, as we might get an additional mislynch down the line.

[faust]

Okay, I went back and read your big posts and I'm a little more with you but I can't get behind MiX trying to indicate to or coach someone. Tell me if I'm losing the translation here but isn't that a not small part of your argument for Maxford being scum? That MiX was telling him what to do? I just can't see that being possible with Maxford being new and MiX being a traitor. Why would MiX bother sticking his neck out for the new kid who doesn't know him/his style/etc.? Wouldn't he single out the people who know him instead if he were trying to flag them down? If that's true, and it certainly is in my mind, your own analysis points to faust.

I don’t think so. At least, I think it’s entirely possible for MiX to prod a reluctant or new player that he knows to be scum by consistently trying to get him to commit more. MiX didn’t come out and say “Yo, scumbuddy, I know you don’t know I’m your partner but I need you to do more”, but he couldn’t exactly, could he.

The reason it’s particularly scummy here is that MiX didn’t really have a reason to treat Town!Maxford the way he did. He wasn’t buddying Maxford, which is what you might expect scum!{anybody} to do to the new guy. He wasn’t trying to make friends, he was trying to get Maxford to engage. Coaching may be the wrong word, and what’s tripping you up. It’s more like nudging and guiding.

Coming back from a reread, I find this point pretty weak. MiX exhibits the same sort of behaviour towards Raptor.

[faust]

I call raerae/Eevee/Galzria.

Well at least I'll go back and see if MiX's actions are compatible with these guys being scum.

For that to be the team, then Shraeye's wagon would have had to have been six townies voting for a town, with the seventh vote cast by the traitor, while all the scums were weirdly focused on getting Joth lynched, even before his claim.

Not saying that getting Joth lynched didn't look like a good option at the time -- it was the one I was pushing for -- but why would the scum team not take the easy choice and switch to Shraeye?

This is a misrepresentation; neither raerae nor Eevee were on the joth wagon. So what it looks like more is that scum didn't care which town was lynched and just let town battle it out.

[faust]

I think I'm against no lynch today.

Vote: Eevee

[faust]

Wait, I got times mixed up and that joth's claim happened earlier... so yeah, raerae and Eevee actually piled on the joth wagon pretty late when it had little chance of succeeding... which seems like the move to do if you don't want to drop the hammer. But it's hard to say how it would have gone and putting all the scum on one wagon is a bit of a risky move.

So... the next person I would include in my scums list then would be Maxford, which leads to an interesting question of whether Maxford/Galzria make sense as a scum team in the light of today's developments. I think they do. I think Eevee is definitely the scummiest, and it's probably raerae who I'd have to replace by Maxford.

[Maxford]

Wait, I got times mixed up and that joth's claim happened earlier... so yeah, raerae and Eevee actually piled on the joth wagon pretty late when it had little chance of succeeding... which seems like the move to do if you don't want to drop the hammer. But it's hard to say how it would have gone and putting all the scum on one wagon is a bit of a risky move.

So... the next person I would include in my scums list then would be Maxford, which leads to an interesting question of whether Maxford/Galzria make sense as a scum team in the light of today's developments. I think they do. I think Eevee is definitely the scummiest, and it's probably raerae who I'd have to replace by Maxford.

This still makes me think faust is my best bet in finding scum... also I don't know what to think about Galzria anymore.

[SpaceAnemone]

Here's a quick summary of faust's D2 voting:
 1. Spends most of the earlier parts of D2 on Eevee, who's the biggest non-faust alternative to MiX. (Though we're only talking 2-3-person wagons here).
 2. Switches to LL, evidently to push a lurker lynch. I felt like we had more evidence than just to go for a lurker at that stage in the game.
 3. Switches to MiX only after it becomes apparent that he's really the traitor and is going down anyway.

It's not the greatest, but nor is it outright damning. What I'd wanted to be able to show was that, given the strong faust-or-Joseph vibe from the D1 wagons, faust looks convincingly more scummy than Joseph. Annoyingly, Joseph actually looks almost as iffy :-(

 1. Votes MiX in second place (after me).
 2. Almost immediately switches to Joth.
 3. Stays there on a two-person wagon (him and LL) till he moves to Galz.
 4. Moves off Galz and onto the MiX lynch wagon one space after faust.

I'm not drawing a strong conclusion either way here right now.. I probably need to look more at the D3 history too, even though that didn't end so well. However, I didn't want not to post the wagon stuff just because I didn't find it as compelling as I'd wanted to. I do still think the D1 faust-or-Joseph thing is very highly likely, though, and I did have more non-wagon quibbles with faust that I think were alignment-indicative.

[Galzria]

3. Switches to MiX only after [/b]it becomes apparent that he's really the traitor[/b] and is going down anyway.

.... Wasn’t only apparent he was the Traitor to Mafia prior to MiX’s flip?

[Galzria]

3. Switches to MiX only after it becomes apparent that he's really the traitor and is going down anyway.

.... Wasn’t only apparent he was the Traitor to Mafia prior to MiX’s flip?

[LaLight]

I don't want to claim yet

What's the difference between today and yesterday? You sure sounded like you were interested in dropping some knowledge on us then.

Well, it depended on whether people want to lunch me. I feel safer today

[LaLight]

I think I'm against no lynch today.

Vote: Eevee

Why, exactly?

[Galzria]

I don't want to claim yet

What's the difference between today and yesterday? You sure sounded like you were interested in dropping some knowledge on us then.

Well, it depended on whether people want to lunch me. I feel safer today

I’m curious though. You desire a delay on claiming, but you also suggest no-lynch. If you’re Town, given a soft-crumb off a PR, wouldn’t a no-lynch simply be asking to be NK’d?

[LaLight]

I don't want to claim yet

What's the difference between today and yesterday? You sure sounded like you were interested in dropping some knowledge on us then.

Well, it depended on whether people want to lunch me. I feel safer today

I’m curious though. You desire a delay on claiming, but you also suggest no-lynch. If you’re Town, given a soft-crumb off a PR, wouldn’t a no-lynch simply be asking to be NK’d?

yeah, why?

[Galzria]

I don't want to claim yet

What's the difference between today and yesterday? You sure sounded like you were interested in dropping some knowledge on us then.

Well, it depended on whether people want to lunch me. I feel safer today

I’m curious though. You desire a delay on claiming, but you also suggest no-lynch. If you’re Town, given a soft-crumb off a PR, wouldn’t a no-lynch simply be asking to be NK’d?

yeah, why?

/shrug

I think you know why, but I don’t think answering you (pressing you) is useful to anyone.

[Galzria]

3. Switches to MiX only after it becomes apparent that he's really the traitor and is going down anyway.

.... Wasn’t only apparent he was the Traitor to Mafia prior to MiX’s flip?

LaLight, what are your thoughts on this? Space exists in the player base that to me is the least likely to find scum given a one-and-done (LyLo) type vote. That is, I think Maxford is scum, I think there’s scum amongst {Joseph, Faust}, and I think there is scum amongst {the rest}. But this to me reads like Space had a predisposition to see the MiX lynch as being against Traitor!MiX, not Scum!MiX, something they would only see from a Mafia!Space perspective.

[LaLight]

3. Switches to MiX only after it becomes apparent that he's really the traitor and is going down anyway.

.... Wasn’t only apparent he was the Traitor to Mafia prior to MiX’s flip?

LaLight, what are your thoughts on this? Space exists in the player base that to me is the least likely to find scum given a one-and-done (LyLo) type vote. That is, I think Maxford is scum, I think there’s scum amongst {Joseph, Faust}, and I think there is scum amongst {the rest}. But this to me reads like Space had a predisposition to see the MiX lynch as being against Traitor!MiX, not Scum!MiX, something they would only see from a Mafia!Space perspective.

I think they were talking from scum!perspective of scum as if "after it becomes apparent to scum that MiX is a traitor".

[LaLight]

I don't want to claim yet

What's the difference between today and yesterday? You sure sounded like you were interested in dropping some knowledge on us then.

Well, it depended on whether people want to lunch me. I feel safer today

I’m curious though. You desire a delay on claiming, but you also suggest no-lynch. If you’re Town, given a soft-crumb off a PR, wouldn’t a no-lynch simply be asking to be NK’d?

yeah, why?

/shrug

I think you know why, but I don’t think answering you (pressing you) is useful to anyone.

Exactly

[Joseph2302]

I'm caught up and some preliminary thoughts are:

Space seems towny to me
LL seems towny, as they're kind of soft claiming PR. Which is faesible as we haven't seen that many PRs so far this game
I'm still finding faust scummy

[faust]

I think I'm against no lynch today.

Vote: Eevee

Why, exactly?

I think we still have a shot at blocking a nightkill.

[Swowl]

Vote Count 4.2:

faust (1): Maxford
Maxford (1): Galzria
Eevee (1): faust

Not Voting (5):  Joseph2302, Eevee, SpaceAnemone, LaLight, raerae


With 8 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 4 ends on Friday, November 22nd, at 3:32pm EST.

[raerae]

I think I'm against no lynch today.

Vote: Eevee

Why, exactly?

I think we still have a shot at blocking a nightkill.

Seems unlikely considering our cop is dead. Pretty shitty of somebody to put us into MyLo instead of stopping the most obvious kill of the game. Or is this you soft-claiming too? Because I'm just here to say I don't believe either of you.

[SpaceAnemone]

Yeah, I wondered whether faust was softing something, but I also didn't want to be the one to say so first out loud. Though I think he's being obvious enough about it that even Maxford would have noticed something! (No offence, Ford, it's just that you're our newbie!).

[raerae]

Yeah, I wondered whether faust was softing something, but I also didn't want to be the one to say so first out loud. Though I think he's being obvious enough about it that even Maxford would have noticed something! (No offence, Ford, it's just that you're our newbie!).

Why are you watching what you say? If it's worth a call out, it's worth a call out.

[Maxford]

Yeah, I wondered whether faust was softing something, but I also didn't want to be the one to say so first out loud. Though I think he's being obvious enough about it that even Maxford would have noticed something! (No offence, Ford, it's just that you're our newbie!).

As a matter of fact, I did notice it.

[SpaceAnemone]

Yeah, I wondered whether faust was softing something, but I also didn't want to be the one to say so first out loud. Though I think he's being obvious enough about it that even Maxford would have noticed something! (No offence, Ford, it's just that you're our newbie!).

As a matter of fact, I did notice it.

Okay, so what did you assume he meant by it?

[Joseph2302]

My scum team thoughts are {Galz, faust, Eevee/Maxford}

[Maxford]

Yeah, I wondered whether faust was softing something, but I also didn't want to be the one to say so first out loud. Though I think he's being obvious enough about it that even Maxford would have noticed something! (No offence, Ford, it's just that you're our newbie!).

As a matter of fact, I did notice it.

Okay, so what did you assume he meant by it?

That maybe he could prevent a night kill

[faust]

Yeah, I wondered whether faust was softing something, but I also didn't want to be the one to say so first out loud. Though I think he's being obvious enough about it that even Maxford would have noticed something! (No offence, Ford, it's just that you're our newbie!).

As a matter of fact, I did notice it.

Okay, so what did you assume he meant by it?

That maybe he could prevent a night kill

He says while voting for me.

[Joseph2302]

Vote: lynch

[raerae]

My scum team thoughts are {Galz, faust, Eevee/Maxford}

Is that your preference order or just how they landed on the keyboard?

[Joseph2302]

My scum team thoughts are {Galz, faust, Eevee/Maxford}

Is that your preference order or just how they landed on the keyboard?

First 2 are preference order, the pair for the third is just alphabetical

[raerae]

My scum team thoughts are {Galz, faust, Eevee/Maxford}

Is that your preference order or just how they landed on the keyboard?

First 2 are preference order, the pair for the third is just alphabetical

You went from faust, to no lunch, to faust and Galz don't fit as partners, to faust, to Galz being your number one. Can you help me with that evolution?

[Joseph2302]

My scum team thoughts are {Galz, faust, Eevee/Maxford}

Is that your preference order or just how they landed on the keyboard?

First 2 are preference order, the pair for the third is just alphabetical

You went from faust, to no lunch, to faust and Galz don't fit as partners, to faust, to Galz being your number one. Can you help me with that evolution?

I still kind of want no lynch, because I don't totally trust faust. If faust is town, then they may be able to stop a lynch. But scum!faust knows that mislynch ends the game, and so is looking for that

And Galz and faust both seem scummy to me. And I'm never that good at working out partner interactions

[raerae]

Space, thoughts, feelings, additional insight?

[faust]

Space, thoughts, feelings, additional insight?

What about your own thougts, feelings, and additional insights?

[raerae]

Space, thoughts, feelings, additional insight?

What about your own thougts, feelings, and additional insights?

Didn't think those were really a secret. You're scumtastic, I don't believe LL's claim, I'm not exactly picking up what Galz is putting down, and I don't really intend to my share anything about anybody else for right now.

[Galzria]

Space, thoughts, feelings, additional insight?

What about your own thougts, feelings, and additional insights?

Didn't think those were really a secret. You're scumtastic, I don't believe LL's claim, I'm not exactly picking up what Galz is putting down, and I don't really intend to my share anything about anybody else for right now.

I’m sad you aren’t feeling Maxwell, because I’m definitely leaning town on you (well, more than Eevee & LL, and about on par with Space - though none of you are hard reads) and with no bussing we need all 5 Town together to lynch scum (although I would be surprised if scum fully stonewalled the whole no-bussing thing).

I’ll be honest: I’m absolutely struggling with everybody’s town read on Joseph. I just don’t see it. Not in the VCA, not in my gut, and not rereading anything he’s posted. But if I can’t convince anybody to go Maxwell (who hasn’t even attempted to defend himself), and my next best grouping is {faust, Joseph}, then I’ll likely end up having to concede my vote to faust and hope that the Town amongst the rest of you are more right than me.

[Eevee]

I'm suffering from a severe paranoia. Usually I struggle with having scum reads, but here I'm just not trusting any of you.

Faust seems like the most immediately scummy person, but it also feels a little too easy. Might be whiplash from what happened with joth.

Maxford is feeling scummier and scummier to me also. I'll do a reread of him.

[Eevee]

Vote: Maxford

I reread Galzria as well, and, well, he just seems towny. The Hail Mary to save joth has me hoping I would see it. I also think his wagon theory is plausible, leading me to look at Maxford.

Scumteamcall: Maxford/Joseph/Space

I still don't think no lynch is terrible, although I'm worried the idea gives scum more control (they'd torpedo the idea if it was a townie getting lynched, would champion it if we were about to lynch mafia).

[SpaceAnemone]

I think Maxford is an uninformative choice, and not as likely to be scum as either faust or Galz.

For one thing, flipping him gives us next to no wagon PoE from D1. He was the very last player to place a vote, and then it was on me, which doesn't even tell the rest of you anything. Then he unvotes! No decent wagon interaction at all. He joins the Shraeye wagon late, and is on-wagon for the lynch in 6th place.. it could look scummy, but it could also just look like a hesitant newbie, so it's all a bit null. Most of the rest of the people there (besides faust and Joseph, or Eevee right at the very end) have already flipped. So let's say there's zero info to be gained by knowing Maxford's alignment over D1.

D2 he joins Eevee pretty early on faust. And then he sits there until the end of the day, and doesn't participate in the MiX lynch. Now, granted that's a tad different from his D1 behaviour, but is it different because he's been coached over N1 in the scum QT, or just different because he'd been around long enough to have developed a read?

D3 he just didn't vote.

In summary, yes, he could be scum, but I don't think he's our most likely chance of finding scum today, and I do think he's a contender for the title of worst possible person to flip in terms of possible scum-hunting boosts for town.

[Galzria]

I think Maxford is an uninformative choice, and not as likely to be scum as either faust or Galz.

For one thing, flipping him gives us next to no wagon PoE from D1. He was the very last player to place a vote, and then it was on me, which doesn't even tell the rest of you anything. Then he unvotes! No decent wagon interaction at all. He joins the Shraeye wagon late, and is on-wagon for the lynch in 6th place.. it could look scummy, but it could also just look like a hesitant newbie, so it's all a bit null. Most of the rest of the people there (besides faust and Joseph, or Eevee right at the very end) have already flipped. So let's say there's zero info to be gained by knowing Maxford's alignment over D1.

D2 he joins Eevee pretty early on faust. And then he sits there until the end of the day, and doesn't participate in the MiX lynch. Now, granted that's a tad different from his D1 behaviour, but is it different because he's been coached over N1 in the scum QT, or just different because he'd been around long enough to have developed a read?

D3 he just didn't vote.

In summary, yes, he could be scum, but I don't think he's our most likely chance of finding scum today, and I do think he's a contender for the title of worst possible person to flip in terms of possible scum-hunting boosts for town.

I disagree with your entire approach here. I don’t give a flying flip about who is the “most informative” lynch here. If we lynch wrong we lose (barring intervention). It wouldn’t matter if were lynched somebody who’s flip told us 100% who the entire scum team is!

Now, if you want to argue he’s not our best chance to find scum, by all means, go for it. I disagree, and I believe the interactions with the only flipped scum suggest otherwise - not to mention I feel my VCA points towards him being scum whereas you’re writing things off as NAI - but hey, to quote Raerae: You do you boo.

[SpaceAnemone]

Priority 1: lynch scum.

Priority 2: lynch a scum who helps us work out who the other scums are. Or at least who some townies are. Otherwise we're just not going to be able to win this further down the line anyway.

[raerae]

LL, do you have anything to add?

[faust]

Space, thoughts, feelings, additional insight?

What about your own thougts, feelings, and additional insights?

Didn't think those were really a secret. You're scumtastic, I don't believe LL's claim, I'm not exactly picking up what Galz is putting down, and I don't really intend to my share anything about anybody else for right now.

Sounds like a secret to me!

[faust]

The only people that so far have expressed reads on Eevee (other than me) are Joseph and Galz, both of which put him very close to null. I think people are trying to keep the conversation away from there.

[LaLight]

Well, I am starting to think faust is on the townie side after all. There is some paranoia in me as usual, but he doesn't look like scum!self.

I am betting on Eevee/raerae/Galz or Maxford

[LaLight]

And I think I will vote: Eevee

[Joseph2302]

This game is stalling a lot
Going for my top scum read, Vote: Galz

[Joseph2302]

Maybe we should do a mass claim?

[raerae]

This game is stalling a lot
Going for my top scum read, Vote: Galz

I was waiting for LL to chime in then was going to push for a vote. I'm fine with a claim though if that's the road people want to go down.

[Joseph2302]

This game is stalling a lot
Going for my top scum read, Vote: Galz

I was waiting for LL to chime in then was going to push for a vote. I'm fine with a claim though if that's the road people want to go down.

It's a suggestion. And I don't think it's a bad one with soft claimed PRs out there

[raerae]

I'm no Space but here's what I'm sitting for a vote count.

faust: Maxford
Maxford: Galz, Eevee
Eevee: faust, LL
Galz: Joseph

Not voting: Space, raerae

[Joseph2302]

I'm no Space but here's what I'm sitting for a vote count.

faust: Maxford
Maxford: Galz, Eevee
Eevee: faust, LL
Galz: Joseph

Not voting: Space, raerae

Interesting that 3 scum haven't dived on the Maxford wagon
That means either Maxford is scum or there is a scum on the wagon already i.e. in {Galz, Eevee}

[Joseph2302]

Which doesn't tell me that much, as they're 3 of my 4 top scum reads

[LaLight]

Eevee gives me the vibes I usually have: when mafia is winning, he starts lurking to not mess up the game. On the logic "it's better they lynch me for lurking but my team will win than if i mess up and make any interactions with players that can give the whole team up". I tend to have those.

[Joseph2302]

vtoe: Joseph

[raerae]

Everybody is making sense and scum hasn't pounced. This is awful.

[raerae]

vtoe: Joseph

I stand corrected.

[Joseph2302]

vtoe: Joseph

I stand corrected.

It's not a vote

[raerae]

vtoe: Joseph

I stand corrected.

It's not a vote

Naw, I know, just basic silly Joseph stuff, doesn't mean it makes sense

[Joseph2302]

vtoe: Joseph

I stand corrected.

It's not a vote

Naw, I know, just basic silly Joseph stuff, doesn't mean it makes sense

I'm just a basic silly human being

[raerae]

Scum has to bussing at this point. Sorry I can't buy into Galz just yet.

Vote: Eevee

[Galzria]

That is my least favorite bracket of players to choose from to have the best chance of finding scum. 

With three votes though... either y’all are scum, Eevee is scum, or scum is poised to win.

I don’t trust any of this lol.

[raerae]

That is my least favorite bracket of players to choose from to have the best chance of finding scum. 

With three votes though... either y’all are scum, Eevee is scum, or scum is poised to win.

I don’t trust any of this lol.

You literally just listed every available possibility on a lunch today.

[Galzria]

That is my least favorite bracket of players to choose from to have the best chance of finding scum. 

With three votes though... either y’all are scum, Eevee is scum, or scum is poised to win.

I don’t trust any of this lol.

You literally just listed every available possibility on a lunch today.

 

Yes, I’m aware! Doesn’t make me feel any better!

[Eevee]

Oh crap, possible quickhammer territory.

I’m just a VT, nothing to claim.

[Eevee]

Time to be cognizant of scum possibly signaling to their partners that they’d be avail heck for a quickhammer. (directed to the misguided townies on my wagon)

[Eevee]

Anyone have any tips for me on how to not lose the game for town?

[LaLight]

Anyone have any tips for me on how to not lose the game for town?

Can you change your alignment?

[Galzria]

Anyone have any tips for me on how to not lose the game for town?

Well I’m not voting you, nor is Maxwell, Space or Joseph. If you’re Town and two of the other three are scum then we’re screwed. If you’re Town and only one of the other three is scum then scum can’t lynch you without an additional vote.

If you’re scum, then you either have one buddy on your wagon right now, or none - but very unlikely you have two. Either way, I will not be vote #4 for fear that you’re Town and two scum are currently on your wagon while the last waits to hammer.

If somebody else put you to four votes I would probably wait it out before considering hammering - if you’re Town and you get hammered then we lose anyway and it doesn’t matter. But if don’t get hammered then I would need to decide if you’re scum or have three scum on your wagon.

Also, I realize how scummy the bolded sounds. I am NOT advocating anybody put you to L-1. In fact I would much prefer LL to unvote since he’s here - which would prevent any sort of quickhammer potential.

[Maxford]

Anyone have any tips for me on how to not lose the game for town?

Well I’m not voting you, nor is Maxwell, Space or Joseph. If you’re Town and two of the other three are scum then we’re screwed. If you’re Town and only one of the other three is scum then scum can’t lynch you without an additional vote.

If you’re scum, then you either have one buddy on your wagon right now, or none - but very unlikely you have two. Either way, I will not be vote #4 for fear that you’re Town and two scum are currently on your wagon while the last waits to hammer.

If somebody else put you to four votes I would probably wait it out before considering hammering - if you’re Town and you get hammered then we lose anyway and it doesn’t matter. But if don’t get hammered then I would need to decide if you’re scum or have three scum on your wagon.

Also, I realize how scummy the bolded sounds. I am NOT advocating anybody put you to L-1. In fact I would much prefer LL to unvote since he’s here - which would prevent any sort of quickhammer potential.

Why do you keep calling me Maxwell?

[Galzria]

Anyone have any tips for me on how to not lose the game for town?

Well I’m not voting you, nor is Maxwell, Space or Joseph. If you’re Town and two of the other three are scum then we’re screwed. If you’re Town and only one of the other three is scum then scum can’t lynch you without an additional vote.

If you’re scum, then you either have one buddy on your wagon right now, or none - but very unlikely you have two. Either way, I will not be vote #4 for fear that you’re Town and two scum are currently on your wagon while the last waits to hammer.

If somebody else put you to four votes I would probably wait it out before considering hammering - if you’re Town and you get hammered then we lose anyway and it doesn’t matter. But if don’t get hammered then I would need to decide if you’re scum or have three scum on your wagon.

Also, I realize how scummy the bolded sounds. I am NOT advocating anybody put you to L-1. In fact I would much prefer LL to unvote since he’s here - which would prevent any sort of quickhammer potential.

Why do you keep calling me Maxwell?

Haha that’s entirely my bad - I teach a student named Maxwell, and my brain just types it out that way. I’ve caught it and corrected it more than a dozen times, but definitely have missed it a fair share too! Sorry!

[Maxford]

Anyone have any tips for me on how to not lose the game for town?

Well I’m not voting you, nor is Maxwell, Space or Joseph. If you’re Town and two of the other three are scum then we’re screwed. If you’re Town and only one of the other three is scum then scum can’t lynch you without an additional vote.

If you’re scum, then you either have one buddy on your wagon right now, or none - but very unlikely you have two. Either way, I will not be vote #4 for fear that you’re Town and two scum are currently on your wagon while the last waits to hammer.

If somebody else put you to four votes I would probably wait it out before considering hammering - if you’re Town and you get hammered then we lose anyway and it doesn’t matter. But if don’t get hammered then I would need to decide if you’re scum or have three scum on your wagon.

Also, I realize how scummy the bolded sounds. I am NOT advocating anybody put you to L-1. In fact I would much prefer LL to unvote since he’s here - which would prevent any sort of quickhammer potential.

Why do you keep calling me Maxwell?

Haha that’s entirely my bad - I teach a student named Maxwell, and my brain just types it out that way. I’ve caught it and corrected it more than a dozen times, but definitely have missed it a fair share too! Sorry!

That's fine :-)

[LaLight]

unvote

Although why?

[Galzria]

unvote

Although why?

You can revote later if you want - but if you’re Town & Eevee is Town then by unvoting now you avoid a potential quickhammer.

[LaLight]

unvote

Although why?

You can revote later if you want - but if you’re Town & Eevee is Town then by unvoting now you avoid a potential quickhammer.

But then how would I know if we're both town's? This doesn't make a lot of sense

[LaLight]

vote: Eevee

I am pretty confident in my read.

[Galzria]

unvote

Although why?

You can revote later if you want - but if you’re Town & Eevee is Town then by unvoting now you avoid a potential quickhammer.

But then how would I know if we're both town's? This doesn't make a lot of sense

What? Putting people up to hammer range to see if they get hammered is NOT a winning strategy in MyLo!

Like, I get what you’re saying, and yeah, it CAN inform if Eevee happens to be scum - but if he’s Town then you “finding out he’s Town” is “town losing”.

[Eevee]

i think no turning LL’s or faust’s head for whatever reason, our hope lies in raerae. Who at some point thought i was town, what happened?

@LL
no i can not change my alignment. odd question.

[raerae]

unvote

Although why?

You can revote later if you want - but if you’re Town & Eevee is Town then by unvoting now you avoid a potential quickhammer.

But then how would I know if we're both town's? This doesn't make a lot of sense

What? Putting people up to hammer range to see if they get hammered is NOT a winning strategy in MyLo!

Like, I get what you’re saying, and yeah, it CAN inform if Eevee happens to be scum - but if he’s Town then you “finding out he’s Town” is “town losing”.

So what is the best strategy?  If LL had put his vote on Maxford would you be having this same conversation?  We've got three chances here and you've both said Eevee is a bad idea and said you'd consider him. 

[Galzria]

unvote

Although why?

You can revote later if you want - but if you’re Town & Eevee is Town then by unvoting now you avoid a potential quickhammer.

But then how would I know if we're both town's? This doesn't make a lot of sense

What? Putting people up to hammer range to see if they get hammered is NOT a winning strategy in MyLo!

Like, I get what you’re saying, and yeah, it CAN inform if Eevee happens to be scum - but if he’s Town then you “finding out he’s Town” is “town losing”.

So what is the best strategy?  If LL had put his vote on Maxford would you be having this same conversation?  We've got three chances here and you've both said Eevee is a bad idea and said you'd consider him.

I don’t think he’s a bad idea outside the fact that he falls in my largest subgroup that I believe contains exactly 1 scum. My point about “considering” him is predicated on the idea that he had four votes (L-1) but no quick hammer occurred. This would mean either he’s scum or all three scum had piled onto the wagon - both possible scenarios.

And yes, had Maxford been placed up to three votes instead I would’ve unvoted until we were as certain as we could be that he was the lunch we wanted with the best chance of hitting scum.

[raerae]

unvote

Although why?

You can revote later if you want - but if you’re Town & Eevee is Town then by unvoting now you avoid a potential quickhammer.

But then how would I know if we're both town's? This doesn't make a lot of sense

What? Putting people up to hammer range to see if they get hammered is NOT a winning strategy in MyLo!

Like, I get what you’re saying, and yeah, it CAN inform if Eevee happens to be scum - but if he’s Town then you “finding out he’s Town” is “town losing”.

So what is the best strategy?  If LL had put his vote on Maxford would you be having this same conversation?  We've got three chances here and you've both said Eevee is a bad idea and said you'd consider him.

I don’t think he’s a bad idea outside the fact that he falls in my largest subgroup that I believe contains exactly 1 scum. My point about “considering” him is predicated on the idea that he had four votes (L-1) but no quick hammer occurred. This would mean either he’s scum or all three scum had piled onto the wagon - both possible scenarios.

And yes, had Maxford been placed up to three votes instead I would’ve unvoted until we were as certain as we could be that he was the lunch we wanted with the best chance of hitting scum.

But how are we supposed to be certain?  I've asked all of the questions I can, I can't keep calling people out to engage because it's just f-ing exhausting and nobody else seems to be stepping up to the plate.  Do you want a mass claim?  I don't know how we can be more certain with everybody giving the silent treatment around here.

[Galzria]

unvote

Although why?

You can revote later if you want - but if you’re Town & Eevee is Town then by unvoting now you avoid a potential quickhammer.

But then how would I know if we're both town's? This doesn't make a lot of sense

What? Putting people up to hammer range to see if they get hammered is NOT a winning strategy in MyLo!

Like, I get what you’re saying, and yeah, it CAN inform if Eevee happens to be scum - but if he’s Town then you “finding out he’s Town” is “town losing”.

So what is the best strategy?  If LL had put his vote on Maxford would you be having this same conversation?  We've got three chances here and you've both said Eevee is a bad idea and said you'd consider him.

I don’t think he’s a bad idea outside the fact that he falls in my largest subgroup that I believe contains exactly 1 scum. My point about “considering” him is predicated on the idea that he had four votes (L-1) but no quick hammer occurred. This would mean either he’s scum or all three scum had piled onto the wagon - both possible scenarios.

And yes, had Maxford been placed up to three votes instead I would’ve unvoted until we were as certain as we could be that he was the lunch we wanted with the best chance of hitting scum.

But how are we supposed to be certain?  I've asked all of the questions I can, I can't keep calling people out to engage because it's just f-ing exhausting and nobody else seems to be stepping up to the plate.  Do you want a mass claim?  I don't know how we can be more certain with everybody giving the silent treatment around here.

I mean, yeah, I get the frustration.

I don’t know. I’ve looked back, I’ve come up with my best choice for scum and even my second best. I’ve fully posted my thoughts and cases for both and don’t really have much more I can do when people just go “no”, or worse don’t respond at all. I get that 37.5% of the players are scum here and have no incentive to help me out, but still.

[raerae]

unvote

Although why?

You can revote later if you want - but if you’re Town & Eevee is Town then by unvoting now you avoid a potential quickhammer.

But then how would I know if we're both town's? This doesn't make a lot of sense

What? Putting people up to hammer range to see if they get hammered is NOT a winning strategy in MyLo!

Like, I get what you’re saying, and yeah, it CAN inform if Eevee happens to be scum - but if he’s Town then you “finding out he’s Town” is “town losing”.

So what is the best strategy?  If LL had put his vote on Maxford would you be having this same conversation?  We've got three chances here and you've both said Eevee is a bad idea and said you'd consider him.

I don’t think he’s a bad idea outside the fact that he falls in my largest subgroup that I believe contains exactly 1 scum. My point about “considering” him is predicated on the idea that he had four votes (L-1) but no quick hammer occurred. This would mean either he’s scum or all three scum had piled onto the wagon - both possible scenarios.

And yes, had Maxford been placed up to three votes instead I would’ve unvoted until we were as certain as we could be that he was the lunch we wanted with the best chance of hitting scum.

But how are we supposed to be certain?  I've asked all of the questions I can, I can't keep calling people out to engage because it's just f-ing exhausting and nobody else seems to be stepping up to the plate.  Do you want a mass claim?  I don't know how we can be more certain with everybody giving the silent treatment around here.

I mean, yeah, I get the frustration.

I don’t know. I’ve looked back, I’ve come up with my best choice for scum and even my second best. I’ve fully posted my thoughts and cases for both and don’t really have much more I can do when people just go “no”, or worse don’t respond at all. I get that 37.5% of the players are scum here and have no incentive to help me out, but still.

So you're saying you and me screaming at each other isn't the best option here?  I see how it is.

[Galzria]

unvote

Although why?

You can revote later if you want - but if you’re Town & Eevee is Town then by unvoting now you avoid a potential quickhammer.

But then how would I know if we're both town's? This doesn't make a lot of sense

What? Putting people up to hammer range to see if they get hammered is NOT a winning strategy in MyLo!

Like, I get what you’re saying, and yeah, it CAN inform if Eevee happens to be scum - but if he’s Town then you “finding out he’s Town” is “town losing”.

So what is the best strategy?  If LL had put his vote on Maxford would you be having this same conversation?  We've got three chances here and you've both said Eevee is a bad idea and said you'd consider him.

I don’t think he’s a bad idea outside the fact that he falls in my largest subgroup that I believe contains exactly 1 scum. My point about “considering” him is predicated on the idea that he had four votes (L-1) but no quick hammer occurred. This would mean either he’s scum or all three scum had piled onto the wagon - both possible scenarios.

And yes, had Maxford been placed up to three votes instead I would’ve unvoted until we were as certain as we could be that he was the lunch we wanted with the best chance of hitting scum.

But how are we supposed to be certain?  I've asked all of the questions I can, I can't keep calling people out to engage because it's just f-ing exhausting and nobody else seems to be stepping up to the plate.  Do you want a mass claim?  I don't know how we can be more certain with everybody giving the silent treatment around here.

I mean, yeah, I get the frustration.

I don’t know. I’ve looked back, I’ve come up with my best choice for scum and even my second best. I’ve fully posted my thoughts and cases for both and don’t really have much more I can do when people just go “no”, or worse don’t respond at all. I get that 37.5% of the players are scum here and have no incentive to help me out, but still.

So you're saying you and me screaming at each other isn't the best option here?  I see how it is.

Sorry to disappoint.

[faust]

I don’t know. I’ve looked back, I’ve come up with my best choice for scum and even my second best. I’ve fully posted my thoughts and cases for both and don’t really have much more I can do when people just go “no”, or worse don’t respond at all. I get that 37.5% of the players are scum here and have no incentive to help me out, but still.

Your case on Maxford was to a large extent based on the way MiX treated him, yet you didn't react at all when I pointed out that he treated a flipped town pretty much the same.

[Eevee]

Galzria, I think you are town, and I think your sub-groups for scum make sense. I'm very willing to aid in getting a better lynch through.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm doing an Eevee re-read.

This is from Eevee at the start of D2:

We’re back!

Interesting that both confirmed townies were on shraeye. I think looking in-wagon will be my first priority, very much including the surprisingly still with us joth.

The wagon was:
Shraeye (9): A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford, MiX, Eevee, Xxraptorslayer96

Would scum!Eevee have made the on-wagon comment? I think it probably depends on who his scumbuddies are, but i'm struggling to see whether I can actually make any useful logical deductions based on impossible trios.

[Galzria]

I'm doing an Eevee re-read.

This is from Eevee at the start of D2:

We’re back!

Interesting that both confirmed townies were on shraeye. I think looking in-wagon will be my first priority, very much including the surprisingly still with us joth.

The wagon was:
Shraeye (9): A Drowned Kernel, faust, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Maxford, MiX, Eevee, Xxraptorslayer96

Would scum!Eevee have made the on-wagon comment? I think it probably depends on who his scumbuddies are, but i'm struggling to see whether I can actually make any useful logical deductions based on impossible trios.

At work right now. I’m trying to post while I see posts from all the remaining non-voting players to maximize information for Town (ie - no impending quick hammer) to help identify possible pairs. Obviously if Eevee is scum it doesn’t mean as much, but still.

[SpaceAnemone]

How does everyone else think that Eevee handled the pressure of LL's scumslip claim around #972? I thought he didn't come across as too guilty, but evidently I also just read the original with a different tone/intent from how LL did.

[raerae]

I think Eevee slipped there a bit, I am now scumreading him much more than couple of hours ago.

But first, let's lynch joth (of course after he does the thing)

Heyo. Where did I "slip"?

Just quoting to make this easier.

I don't think Eevee was really forced to handle anything, LL sort of just dropped it.

[raerae]

I think Eevee slipped there a bit, I am now scumreading him much more than couple of hours ago.

But first, let's lynch joth (of course after he does the thing)

Heyo. Where did I "slip"?

And also I don't feel like sharing this one for now, I am so sorry

Sorry, he emphatically dropped it by refusing to discuss further.

[Galzria]

That seems a decent question.

LaLight, where was the slip?

[Swowl]

Vote Count 4.3:

Eevee (3): faust, raerae, LaLight
Maxford (2): Galzria, Eevee
faust (1): Maxford
Galzria (1): Joseph

Not Voting (1):  SpaceAnemone


With 8 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 4 ends on Friday, November 22nd, at 3:32pm EST. That is in less than 2 days.

[LaLight]

This might not be very relevant currently, but faust and LL being two independently scummy people, I think there's a high probability exactly one of them is scum.

This looks like you know for sure.

[LaLight]

if a better option presents itself.

Here's a suggestion: Why don't you present a better option?

I would if I had one, right? Or I'm scum.

So, to answer your question: I don't have one.

So you don't have one, so you're scum, am i reading this right?

[LaLight]

Just this. I was mostly trying to draw a reaction and I also think it was scummy

[Joseph2302]

The more I re-read, the more I don't see how Galz and faust can be scum partners. Even though they're the people I think are scummiest

[Joseph2302]

And if Galz and Maxford are both scum and Eevee wasn't, they could have hammered the win by now. So that means that I'm wrong about one of these things

[raerae]

The more I re-read, the more I don't see how Galz and faust can be scum partners. Even though they're the people I think are scummiest

That's why I landed on Eevee, no matter how hard I try to put them together it just doesn't fit.

[Galzria]

The more I re-read, the more I don't see how Galz and faust can be scum partners. Even though they're the people I think are scummiest

That's why I landed on Eevee, no matter how hard I try to put them together it just doesn't fit.

Why do you think Eevee is more likely to be scum than LaLight?

[raerae]

The more I re-read, the more I don't see how Galz and faust can be scum partners. Even though they're the people I think are scummiest

That's why I landed on Eevee, no matter how hard I try to put them together it just doesn't fit.

Why do you think Eevee is more likely to be scum than LaLight?

I think they're equally likely but I'd rather kill off the non-PR first. I feel like I've got to be wrong about disbelieving one of LL or faust.  But maybe that was the plan, one claim one day, one claim the next, whoever dies the other ends up looking peachy?  I've over-thought the absolute hell out of this game though so I'm not sure that's at all logical.

[raerae]

The more I re-read, the more I don't see how Galz and faust can be scum partners. Even though they're the people I think are scummiest

That's why I landed on Eevee, no matter how hard I try to put them together it just doesn't fit.

Why do you think Eevee is more likely to be scum than LaLight?

I think they're equally likely but I'd rather kill off the non-PR first. I feel like I've got to be wrong about disbelieving one of LL or faust.  But maybe that was the plan, one claim one day, one claim the next, whoever dies the other ends up looking peachy?  I've over-thought the absolute hell out of this game though so I'm not sure that's at all logical.

But if they're both scum why would they pile on Eevee together? Because he got caught? It does buy both of them another day, they lose no powers, assuming Eevee is just a goon, and guarantees one of them makes it to the end? I don't know.  I do think Eevee still being alive is not a point in his favor though.

[Eevee]

I've been suspected every day, why is it a point against me I'm still alive? Last night they killed Raptor, there has really been only two nights any of us could have been killed.

[raerae]

I've been suspected every day, why is it a point against me I'm still alive? Last night they killed Raptor, there has really been only two nights any of us could have been killed.

You were hammerable today, I don't really care how suspicious you were or weren't the rest of the game.

[Galzria]

The more I re-read, the more I don't see how Galz and faust can be scum partners. Even though they're the people I think are scummiest

That's why I landed on Eevee, no matter how hard I try to put them together it just doesn't fit.

Why do you think Eevee is more likely to be scum than LaLight?

I think they're equally likely but I'd rather kill off the non-PR first. I feel like I've got to be wrong about disbelieving one of LL or faust.  But maybe that was the plan, one claim one day, one claim the next, whoever dies the other ends up looking peachy?  I've over-thought the absolute hell out of this game though so I'm not sure that's at all logical.

What are your thoughts about LL advocating no-lynch, but also not wanting to claim, when at the time they were the only soft-claimed PR?

[Galzria]

I've been suspected every day, why is it a point against me I'm still alive? Last night they killed Raptor, there has really been only two nights any of us could have been killed.

You were hammerable today, I don't really care how suspicious you were or weren't the rest of the game.

Joseph & Maxford haven’t been online together at the same time.

[raerae]

The more I re-read, the more I don't see how Galz and faust can be scum partners. Even though they're the people I think are scummiest

That's why I landed on Eevee, no matter how hard I try to put them together it just doesn't fit.

Why do you think Eevee is more likely to be scum than LaLight?

I think they're equally likely but I'd rather kill off the non-PR first. I feel like I've got to be wrong about disbelieving one of LL or faust.  But maybe that was the plan, one claim one day, one claim the next, whoever dies the other ends up looking peachy?  I've over-thought the absolute hell out of this game though so I'm not sure that's at all logical.

What are your thoughts about LL advocating no-lynch, but also not wanting to claim, when at the time they were the only soft-claimed PR?

It's not a small amount of the reason I don't entirely believe his claim. He dropped it like he dropped pushing Eevee. If it's really in town's best interest and he's town then why is he voting right now?

[raerae]

I've been suspected every day, why is it a point against me I'm still alive? Last night they killed Raptor, there has really been only two nights any of us could have been killed.

You were hammerable today, I don't really care how suspicious you were or weren't the rest of the game.

Joseph & Maxford haven’t been online together at the same time.

That's fairly presumptuous but I'll give you they haven't posted together.

[Galzria]

I've been suspected every day, why is it a point against me I'm still alive? Last night they killed Raptor, there has really been only two nights any of us could have been killed.

You were hammerable today, I don't really care how suspicious you were or weren't the rest of the game.

Joseph & Maxford haven’t been online together at the same time.

That's fairly presumptuous but I'll give you they haven't posted together.

I mean, I’m just pointing out that any argument about a player (not just Eevee) being scummy because they haven’t been hammered in MyLo falls a little short when there are possible pairs of players who have not been online together to facilitate such a thing.

[Joseph2302]

I've been suspected every day, why is it a point against me I'm still alive? Last night they killed Raptor, there has really been only two nights any of us could have been killed.

You were hammerable today, I don't really care how suspicious you were or weren't the rest of the game.

Joseph & Maxford haven’t been online together at the same time.

You've really been checking?

[Joseph2302]

I've been suspected every day, why is it a point against me I'm still alive? Last night they killed Raptor, there has really been only two nights any of us could have been killed.

You were hammerable today, I don't really care how suspicious you were or weren't the rest of the game.

Joseph & Maxford haven’t been online together at the same time.

That's fairly presumptuous but I'll give you they haven't posted together.

I mean, I’m just pointing out that any argument about a player (not just Eevee) being scummy because they haven’t been hammered in MyLo falls a little short when there are possible pairs of players who have not been online together to facilitate such a thing.

I think most other pairs have been online together, so it does seem interesting that Eevee hasn't been hammered. As I pointed out earlier on

[Galzria]

Vote Count 4.3:

Eevee (3): faust, raerae, LaLight
Maxford (2): Galzria, Eevee
faust (1): Maxford
Galzria (1): Joseph

Not Voting (1):  SpaceAnemone


With 8 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 4 ends on Friday, November 22nd, at 3:32pm EST. That is in less than 2 days.

Sigh.

Deadline is tomorrow, and I don’t know that we’re going anywhere.

I feel like Raerae & Space have been super townie over the past 24-36 hours, so if either of you are scum, good job.

I honestly don’t get good vibes at all from Faust/LaLight being on Eevee right now. My scum team boxes are down to {Maxford, [faust, Joseph], [Eevee, LaLight]}, and I find LaLight scummier than I do Eevee. If I were to lock in a guess it would be {Maxford, Faust, LaLight}, but I feel like I’m being lazy in selecting Faust over Joseph there.

Nonetheless, I feel like the lynch of Eevee at this point is looking more inevitable than not, so I’ll wait out last thoughts from Space, and then I guess we can gamble it out on Eevee.

[Galzria]

I've been suspected every day, why is it a point against me I'm still alive? Last night they killed Raptor, there has really been only two nights any of us could have been killed.

You were hammerable today, I don't really care how suspicious you were or weren't the rest of the game.

Joseph & Maxford haven’t been online together at the same time.

You've really been checking?

By online I mean posting. I’m always appear offline, so the measure I go by is posting.

[Eevee]

I've been suspected every day, why is it a point against me I'm still alive? Last night they killed Raptor, there has really been only two nights any of us could have been killed.

You were hammerable today, I don't really care how suspicious you were or weren't the rest of the game.

I misunderstood. From my perspective, the fact I'm still here should make me suspect my wagon more, right?

[Joseph2302]

My scum teams are something like {[Galz, faust], [Eevee, maxford, LL] x2 }

PPE: 2

[Joseph2302]

Right now I think myself, Space and raerae are town, others all could be scum. But don't see faust/Galz as a scum team, all other combinations seem possible to me

[Joseph2302]

The more I re-read, the more I don't see how Galz and faust can be scum partners. Even though they're the people I think are scummiest

That's why I landed on Eevee, no matter how hard I try to put them together it just doesn't fit.

Why do you think Eevee is more likely to be scum than LaLight?

I think they're equally likely but I'd rather kill off the non-PR first. I feel like I've got to be wrong about disbelieving one of LL or faust.  But maybe that was the plan, one claim one day, one claim the next, whoever dies the other ends up looking peachy?  I've over-thought the absolute hell out of this game though so I'm not sure that's at all logical.

What are your thoughts about LL advocating no-lynch, but also not wanting to claim, when at the time they were the only soft-claimed PR?

It's not a small amount of the reason I don't entirely believe his claim. He dropped it like he dropped pushing Eevee. If it's really in town's best interest and he's town then why is he voting right now?

I'm finding this kind of suspicious too
He's softclaiming a PR, but that PR can't be useful much if he wants no lynch

And something seems off about it too

Vote: LL

[Joseph2302]

If the choice comes down to Eevee and Maxford, I think I'd choose Maxford right now. But I really don't know

[Eevee]

I've been suspected every day, why is it a point against me I'm still alive? Last night they killed Raptor, there has really been only two nights any of us could have been killed.

You were hammerable today, I don't really care how suspicious you were or weren't the rest of the game.

Joseph & Maxford haven’t been online together at the same time.

Town points for Galzria for attempting to track stuff like this. Kudos.

[raerae]

The more I re-read, the more I don't see how Galz and faust can be scum partners. Even though they're the people I think are scummiest

That's why I landed on Eevee, no matter how hard I try to put them together it just doesn't fit.

Why do you think Eevee is more likely to be scum than LaLight?

I think they're equally likely but I'd rather kill off the non-PR first. I feel like I've got to be wrong about disbelieving one of LL or faust.  But maybe that was the plan, one claim one day, one claim the next, whoever dies the other ends up looking peachy?  I've over-thought the absolute hell out of this game though so I'm not sure that's at all logical.

What are your thoughts about LL advocating no-lynch, but also not wanting to claim, when at the time they were the only soft-claimed PR?

It's not a small amount of the reason I don't entirely believe his claim. He dropped it like he dropped pushing Eevee. If it's really in town's best interest and he's town then why is he voting right now?

I'm finding this kind of suspicious too
He's softclaiming a PR, but that PR can't be useful much if he wants no lynch

And something seems off about it too

Vote: LL

So you believe faust's soft-claim over LL's? Enough to vote there? Help me have your confidence here.

[Eevee]

The more I re-read, the more I don't see how Galz and faust can be scum partners. Even though they're the people I think are scummiest

That's why I landed on Eevee, no matter how hard I try to put them together it just doesn't fit.

Why do you think Eevee is more likely to be scum than LaLight?

I think they're equally likely but I'd rather kill off the non-PR first. I feel like I've got to be wrong about disbelieving one of LL or faust.  But maybe that was the plan, one claim one day, one claim the next, whoever dies the other ends up looking peachy?  I've over-thought the absolute hell out of this game though so I'm not sure that's at all logical.

What are your thoughts about LL advocating no-lynch, but also not wanting to claim, when at the time they were the only soft-claimed PR?

It's not a small amount of the reason I don't entirely believe his claim. He dropped it like he dropped pushing Eevee. If it's really in town's best interest and he's town then why is he voting right now?

Upon LL's initial softclaim, I thought it towny because why would scum even do that. His actions today are confusing, if scum is eager to lynch a townie here for the win, I think LL's behaviour fits that bill the best. From my perspective he was all about the nolynch until votes started piling on town.

[Joseph2302]

The more I re-read, the more I don't see how Galz and faust can be scum partners. Even though they're the people I think are scummiest

That's why I landed on Eevee, no matter how hard I try to put them together it just doesn't fit.

Why do you think Eevee is more likely to be scum than LaLight?

I think they're equally likely but I'd rather kill off the non-PR first. I feel like I've got to be wrong about disbelieving one of LL or faust.  But maybe that was the plan, one claim one day, one claim the next, whoever dies the other ends up looking peachy?  I've over-thought the absolute hell out of this game though so I'm not sure that's at all logical.

What are your thoughts about LL advocating no-lynch, but also not wanting to claim, when at the time they were the only soft-claimed PR?

It's not a small amount of the reason I don't entirely believe his claim. He dropped it like he dropped pushing Eevee. If it's really in town's best interest and he's town then why is he voting right now?

I'm finding this kind of suspicious too
He's softclaiming a PR, but that PR can't be useful much if he wants no lynch

And something seems off about it too

Vote: LL

So you believe faust's soft-claim over LL's? Enough to vote there? Help me have your confidence here.

One of them is lying, I'm almost certain. And LL has been less helpful and more confusing, especially today. And the confusion of PR and no lynch seems kind of scummy, as if useful PR, you wouldn't need the no lynch, and vice versa

Also it's L4, which is safe anyway

[Eevee]

I think faust left himself room to claim whatever he wants tomorrow, which I guess is kinda scummy in itself.

Why are we so sure Space is town? Joseph latest string of posts is making me feel towny on him (for the first time in this game)!

[Eevee]

I'm fine voting whoever Joseph and Galzria can agree on. If they can't, Galz is my stronger town read.

 Very possible I'm wrong on either or even both, but facing a certain loss, a gambling man's got to gamble.

[Joseph2302]

I think faust left himself room to claim whatever he wants tomorrow, which I guess is kinda scummy in itself.

Why are we so sure Space is town? Joseph latest string of posts is making me feel towny on him (for the first time in this game)!

I'm not 100% sure on Space, but they seem towny in heneral this game. And I think for today we should just try and find a scum. And work it out from there

PPE: 1

[Joseph2302]

I'm fine voting whoever Joseph and Galzria can agree on. If they can't, Galz is my stronger town read.

 Very possible I'm wrong on either or even both, but facing a certain loss, a gambling man's got to gamble.

So you're assuming you, me and Galz are all town?
Because I'm not assuming that at all

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm not 100% on anyone any more.

The people I'm not interested in lynching today are Raerae, Joseph and LL.

I think we have a better than 50% chance on each of faust and Galz, but I would like to hear more about people insisting that it can't be both. I also just can't shake my general suspicion of faust enough to fully embrace the Eevee wagon, though if it comes to it, I'll trust the judgement of anyone I find townie enough.

I just don't know what to make of Maxford, though if he's scum he's doing well at this point. More posting with re-reads of some other players (particularly Galz and faust) would be nice if he has time and energy to do so, to help me get a better read. Though I think last time I checked, Galz still held the record for fewest posts of any living player in this game.

[faust]

I don't quite understand what people are townreading raerae for, but I guess that's a battle for another day. Thinking about quickhammer stuff is kind of relevant, but it isn't as telling as people make it out to be. Scum probably don't know whether they can secure a win after a mislynch today, so they won't out themselves. One scum might opportunistically quickhammer, but I think a double or even triple quickhammer bears too many risks for them. Which is by the way another reason against no lynching today.

[faust]

I'm not 100% on anyone any more.

Who were you 100% on?

[LaLight]

I stood against quickhammering in the end because I believed Faust.

[LaLight]

Sorry for autocorrect, faust

[Joseph2302]

I stood against quickhammering in the end because I believed Faust.

Surely faust and LL can't both be actual PRs?

[raerae]

I stood against quickhammering in the end because I believed Faust.

Surely faust and LL can't both be actual PRs?

Good call. 

LL, do you believe faust has a PR?

[LaLight]

I stood against quickhammering in the end because I believed Faust.

Surely faust and LL can't both be actual PRs?

Good call. 

LL, do you believe faust has a PR?

I do, and I am a PR.

[raerae]

faust, do you?

[faust]

faust, do you?

Do I what? Believe that I have a PR?

[raerae]

faust, do you?

Do I what? Believe that I have a PR?

Believe LL.

[faust]

faust, do you?

Do I what? Believe that I have a PR?

Believe LL.

I think that LL is town. I also think it's perfectly reasonable to have 5 town PRs in the game given what we know so far.

[Joseph2302]

faust, do you?

Do I what? Believe that I have a PR?

Believe LL.

I think that LL is town. I also think it's perfectly reasonable to have 5 town PRs in the game given what we know so far.

I guess that would balance a 10/4 game

[Eevee]

One argument for a massclaim is that scum will surely know who to kill tonight even if we make it out alive. I guess they won't know which of them is more powerful if they are both town.

[Maxford]

One argument for a massclaim is that scum will surely know who to kill tonight even if we make it out alive. I guess they won't know which of them is more powerful if they are both town.

What if one of them is not town? Faust is still my top scum read.

Or do you have any particular reasons to think they're both town?

[Eevee]

One argument for a massclaim is that scum will surely know who to kill tonight even if we make it out alive. I guess they won't know which of them is more powerful if they are both town.

What if one of them is not town? Faust is still my top scum read.

Or do you have any particular reasons to think they're both town?

No, I just mean scum will know who to target at night. Which I guess is secondary at this hour to just reaching tomorrow somehow.

Definitely no reason to think both are town. I would say it's less than 50% if I had to handicap at the moment.

[raerae]

One argument for a massclaim is that scum will surely know who to kill tonight even if we make it out alive. I guess they won't know which of them is more powerful if they are both town.

What if one of them is not town? Faust is still my top scum read.

Or do you have any particular reasons to think they're both town?

Nothing about today has changed that? You've been very quiet and there's definitely been enough to chat about. Care to share?

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm not 100% on anyone any more.

Who were you 100% on?

I was really sold on Joth... also really wrong! I feel like I had a lot more confidence earlier in the game.

[Maxford]

I would expect town!Space to have done that kind of analysis by now, but here is my attempt (I'm mainly using vote counts people posted, and I probably missed some):

#228: ADK(4): faust, raerare, joth, and Shraeye: there's probably scum in {faust, raerae}

#419: joth(4) : Galz, Space, LL, Shraeye => at least 1 scum in {Galz, Space, LL}

#504: Shraeye ( 8 ): Mix, ADK,WCD, joth, Maxford, faust, Joseph, Eevee : => at least 1 and probably at most 2 scum in {faust, Joseph, Eevee}

#699: Mix (3): Space, raerae, joth => at most 1 scum in {Space, raerae}

# 936: Joth (3): Raerae, Joseph, SA => at least 1 scum in {Raerae, Joseph, SA}

# 1185: Maxford(2): Eevee, Galzria => at least 1 scum in {Eevee, Galzria}

# 1194: Eevee(2) : faust, LL => either Eevee is scum or at least 1 scum in {faust, LL}

# 1241 Eevee(3) : faust, LL, raerae => either Eevee is scum, or at least 1 scum in {faust, LL, raerae} (alternatively, at most 2 scums in {Galzria, LL, Space})



There's still too many combinations of scum team possible (35 I believe?) for me to reliably solve this manually, but I believe this leaves the following possible scum teams (assuming all constraints are satisfied, which is not that likely):
-Galz, faust, raerae
-Galz, faust,  Space
-Galz, faust,  Joseph
-Galz, raerae, faust,
-Galz, raerae,  Joseph,
-Galz, Eevee, raerae, 
-raerae, Space, Eevee,
-LaLight, raerae,  Eevee

Now, I'm not sure one should take this exercise literally, (as in lynch the player who is in most teams) but this makes me dubious of Galz. However, based on interactions, the fact that faust hammered joth last day even though he had been defending him, that he seems to be misinterpreting what I say on purpose, I still think he's our most plausible way to find scum. For the moment, I would say, based on this analysis and interactions, that my most probable scum team is faust, Galz, Eevee (in this order).

[raerae]

Well, are we no lynching then?  That seems like what the crickets are indicating.

[faust]

I'm willing to cut Maxford some slack here as a newbie, but that wagon analysis was a mess.

#228: ADK(4): faust, raerare, joth, and Shraeye: there's probably scum in {faust, raerae}
[/quite]
What you're saying here is that a wagon of 2 people (me and raerae) on town must have had scum in it, since the two known scum joined later and thus could not have affected raerae's and my decision to be on that wagon.

#419: joth(4) : Galz, Space, LL, Shraeye => at least 1 scum in {Galz, Space, LL}

Similar problems, but a bit stronger since now we have 3 people.

#504: Shraeye ( 8 ): Mix, ADK,WCD, joth, Maxford, faust, Joseph, Eevee : => at least 1 and probably at most 2 scum in {faust, Joseph, Eevee}

It's really fallacious to take any conclusions from late-game wagon movement that is there to push a lynch through. People will join here based on availability, not alignment. It would be a different story if there had been a serious counterwagon, but there wasn't after joth claimed.

#699: Mix (3): Space, raerae, joth => at most 1 scum in {Space, raerae}

This is the worst offender; scum didn't even know MiX was one of them, how can you draw any conclusions here?

# 936: Joth (3): Raerae, Joseph, SA => at least 1 scum in {Raerae, Joseph, SA}

This one's fine as far as wagon analysis goes, but you still shouldn't 100% these, especially when there hasn't been a meaningful scum wagon.

# 1185: Maxford(2): Eevee, Galzria => at least 1 scum in {Eevee, Galzria}

Definitely makes sense from a town!Maxford POV, but it's not so much the fact that we had this wagon and more that this floated around as an option for a while.

# 1194: Eevee(2) : faust, LL => either Eevee is scum or at least 1 scum in {faust, LL}

# 1241 Eevee(3) : faust, LL, raerae => either Eevee is scum, or at least 1 scum in {faust, LL, raerae} (alternatively, at most 2 scums in {Galzria, LL, Space})

The first one is a strictly stronger statement than the second.

[faust]

Sorry, messed up. You get the idea. Also, we should definitely lynch. Especially Space needs to make up their mind.

[faust]

Though to be fair, I am also somewhat undecided on whether I'd lynch Maxford over no lynch. I think that will depend on how we get to a situation where I'd need to make that call.

[faust]

Wait... after some review, no, I would not vote for Maxford today.

[raerae]

Wait... after some review, no, I would not vote for Maxford today.

So you're team no lunch then?

[faust]

Wait... after some review, no, I would not vote for Maxford today.

So you're team no lunch then?

No, I'm team lynch one of Eevee/raerae/Galzria.

[raerae]

Wait... after some review, no, I would not vote for Maxford today.

So you're team no lunch then?

No, I'm team lynch one of Eevee/raerae/Galzria.

Well, at least one of those is a good idea.

[Galzria]

Wait... after some review, no, I would not vote for Maxford today.

So you're team no lunch then?

No, I'm team lynch one of Eevee/raerae/Galzria.

Well, at least one of those is a good idea.

I don’t believe any of them are. 😔

[raerae]

Wait... after some review, no, I would not vote for Maxford today.

So you're team no lunch then?

No, I'm team lynch one of Eevee/raerae/Galzria.

Well, at least one of those is a good idea.

I don’t believe any of them are. 😔

Welp, I just had a post about why I think you're wrong re:Maxford, dropped my phone on my face, and navigated away from the page.  The argument boiled down to he isn't acting the way I expect noobscum to act; just pretend that was super eloquent and convincing, k?  I'm going to hit the hay.

[Galzria]

Wait... after some review, no, I would not vote for Maxford today.

So you're team no lunch then?

No, I'm team lynch one of Eevee/raerae/Galzria.

Well, at least one of those is a good idea.

I don’t believe any of them are. 😔

Welp, I just had a post about why I think you're wrong re:Maxford, dropped my phone on my face, and navigated away from the page.  The argument boiled down to he isn't acting the way I expect noobscum to act; just pretend that was super eloquent and convincing, k?  I'm going to hit the hay.

Hiding, not responding to much, limited engagement & no strong, bold, or expressive reads? That’s exactly how most noob!scum act.

[Maxford]

Wait... after some review, no, I would not vote for Maxford today.

So you're team no lunch then?

No, I'm team lynch one of Eevee/raerae/Galzria.

Well, at least one of those is a good idea.

I don’t believe any of them are. 😔

Welp, I just had a post about why I think you're wrong re:Maxford, dropped my phone on my face, and navigated away from the page.  The argument boiled down to he isn't acting the way I expect noobscum to act; just pretend that was super eloquent and convincing, k?  I'm going to hit the hay.

Hiding, not responding to much, limited engagement & no strong, bold, or expressive reads? That’s exactly how most noob!scum act.

Well, I have been arguing to lynch faust for days and I believe he's looking scummier and scummier. After all, the reason Space gave to grant him a D1-pass was that scum!faust was bound to be somewhat helpful to town and haven't seen any of this. He was prompt in pointing the mistakes in my analysis but never offered his own. As a matter of fact, based on the discussions on D1, I believed both Space and faust would have been far more helpful and analytical than they've been up to now.

I'm not scum, I'm trying my best to find scum, sorry if I haven't been of much help so far and if my analysis is of poor quality, but I'm genuinely not understanding why there's not more people voting against faust right now. Also, I think I prefer no lynch over lynching someone else at this point, because the cost of mislynching is too high.

[SpaceAnemone]

Hiding, not responding to much, limited engagement & no strong, bold, or expressive reads? That’s exactly how most noob!scum act.

Fun fact: at the point you posted this, it brought you up to parity in terms of how many game posts you'd made compared to Maxford. He's now one response ahead of you again!

[Joseph2302]

Wait... after some review, no, I would not vote for Maxford today.

So you're team no lunch then?

No, I'm team lynch one of Eevee/raerae/Galzria.

Well, at least one of those is a good idea.

I don’t believe any of them are. 😔

Welp, I just had a post about why I think you're wrong re:Maxford, dropped my phone on my face, and navigated away from the page.  The argument boiled down to he isn't acting the way I expect noobscum to act; just pretend that was super eloquent and convincing, k?  I'm going to hit the hay.

Hiding, not responding to much, limited engagement & no strong, bold, or expressive reads? That’s exactly how most noob!scum act.

Well, I have been arguing to lynch faust for days and I believe he's looking scummier and scummier. After all, the reason Space gave to grant him a D1-pass was that scum!faust was bound to be somewhat helpful to town and haven't seen any of this. He was prompt in pointing the mistakes in my analysis but never offered his own. As a matter of fact, based on the discussions on D1, I believed both Space and faust would have been far more helpful and analytical than they've been up to now.

I'm not scum, I'm trying my best to find scum, sorry if I haven't been of much help so far and if my analysis is of poor quality, but I'm genuinely not understanding why there's not more people voting against faust right now. Also, I think I prefer no lynch over lynching someone else at this point, because the cost of mislynching is too high.

Was it Space who gave faust the D1 pass? Because I thought it was me

[faust]

Hiding, not responding to much, limited engagement & no strong, bold, or expressive reads? That’s exactly how most noob!scum act.

Fun fact: at the point you posted this, it brought you up to parity in terms of how many game posts you'd made compared to Maxford. He's now one response ahead of you again!

Don't you feel like we have more important things to worry about?

[Eevee]

Hiding, not responding to much, limited engagement & no strong, bold, or expressive reads? That’s exactly how most noob!scum act.

Fun fact: at the point you posted this, it brought you up to parity in terms of how many game posts you'd made compared to Maxford. He's now one response ahead of you again!

Space harping on Galzria's post count when he has clearly been present and making analysis for all of today is very odd. Even taking account the first two days where Galzria hardly posted, if we analyzed word count and not post count (especially if we removed total fluff posts), he'd be nearer the top than the bottom of the living town.

[raerae]

Wait... after some review, no, I would not vote for Maxford today.

So you're team no lunch then?

No, I'm team lynch one of Eevee/raerae/Galzria.

Well, at least one of those is a good idea.

I don’t believe any of them are. 😔

Welp, I just had a post about why I think you're wrong re:Maxford, dropped my phone on my face, and navigated away from the page.  The argument boiled down to he isn't acting the way I expect noobscum to act; just pretend that was super eloquent and convincing, k?  I'm going to hit the hay.

Hiding, not responding to much, limited engagement & no strong, bold, or expressive reads? That’s exactly how most noob!scum act.

See, that's where we disagree. I think he's been asking reasonable questions, not following votes around, and being reasonably engaged (today aside but I could point a few fingers there). I mean, he's been holding down the faust fort all day, doesn't froshscum play follow the leader to the nearest town lunch when we're in MyLo? He's been to independent for me to see him as scum.

[raerae]

Wait... after some review, no, I would not vote for Maxford today.

So you're team no lunch then?

No, I'm team lynch one of Eevee/raerae/Galzria.

Well, at least one of those is a good idea.

I don’t believe any of them are. 😔

Welp, I just had a post about why I think you're wrong re:Maxford, dropped my phone on my face, and navigated away from the page.  The argument boiled down to he isn't acting the way I expect noobscum to act; just pretend that was super eloquent and convincing, k?  I'm going to hit the hay.

Hiding, not responding to much, limited engagement & no strong, bold, or expressive reads? That’s exactly how most noob!scum act.

Well, I have been arguing to lynch faust for days and I believe he's looking scummier and scummier. After all, the reason Space gave to grant him a D1-pass was that scum!faust was bound to be somewhat helpful to town and haven't seen any of this. He was prompt in pointing the mistakes in my analysis but never offered his own. As a matter of fact, based on the discussions on D1, I believed both Space and faust would have been far more helpful and analytical than they've been up to now.

I'm not scum, I'm trying my best to find scum, sorry if I haven't been of much help so far and if my analysis is of poor quality, but I'm genuinely not understanding why there's not more people voting against faust right now. Also, I think I prefer no lynch over lynching someone else at this point, because the cost of mislynching is too high.

Was it Space who gave faust the D1 pass? Because I thought it was me

Seems like it was BOGO, Space gave him one for sure.

[raerae]

Hiding, not responding to much, limited engagement & no strong, bold, or expressive reads? That’s exactly how most noob!scum act.

Fun fact: at the point you posted this, it brought you up to parity in terms of how many game posts you'd made compared to Maxford. He's now one response ahead of you again!

Space, your haven't voted today. Are you planning to or not?

[Joseph2302]

Wait... after some review, no, I would not vote for Maxford today.

So you're team no lunch then?

No, I'm team lynch one of Eevee/raerae/Galzria.

Well, at least one of those is a good idea.

I don’t believe any of them are. 😔

Welp, I just had a post about why I think you're wrong re:Maxford, dropped my phone on my face, and navigated away from the page.  The argument boiled down to he isn't acting the way I expect noobscum to act; just pretend that was super eloquent and convincing, k?  I'm going to hit the hay.

Hiding, not responding to much, limited engagement & no strong, bold, or expressive reads? That’s exactly how most noob!scum act.

Well, I have been arguing to lynch faust for days and I believe he's looking scummier and scummier. After all, the reason Space gave to grant him a D1-pass was that scum!faust was bound to be somewhat helpful to town and haven't seen any of this. He was prompt in pointing the mistakes in my analysis but never offered his own. As a matter of fact, based on the discussions on D1, I believed both Space and faust would have been far more helpful and analytical than they've been up to now.

I'm not scum, I'm trying my best to find scum, sorry if I haven't been of much help so far and if my analysis is of poor quality, but I'm genuinely not understanding why there's not more people voting against faust right now. Also, I think I prefer no lynch over lynching someone else at this point, because the cost of mislynching is too high.

Was it Space who gave faust the D1 pass? Because I thought it was me

Seems like it was BOGO, Space gave him one for sure.

Just has to Google what BOGO is lol (it's same as BOGOF)

[SpaceAnemone]

@Maxford, I like your attempts at wagon analysis, but this game is not an easy one for wagon stuff, and I'm more in agreement with faust about your conclusions. More later.. too many things going on for me right now and not enough lunch break to address them all in!

PPE 7: Had to go do some shopping while it was still lunch...

[raerae]

I'm going to be driving to work at deadline.

[Maxford]

@Space/Joseph, when is the deadline, UK time?

[SpaceAnemone]

@Space/Joseph, when is the deadline, UK time?

20h32

[Joseph2302]

@Space/Joseph, when is the deadline, UK time?

20h32

Today?

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote: Eevee

I think I'm beginning both to trust faust more, and to feel even townier on Maxford, meaning I think a Galz-Eevee-X team is more likely than anything else.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote: Eevee

I think I'm beginning both to trust faust more, and to feel even townier on Maxford, meaning I think a Galz-Eevee-X team is more likely than anything else.

Sorry.. didn't meant to be all shouty.

[SpaceAnemone]

@Space/Joseph, when is the deadline, UK time?

20h32

Today?

Yes, today. I assumed from the phrasing of Ford's question that he had that part down.

[Joseph2302]

@Space/Joseph, when is the deadline, UK time?

20h32

Today?

Yes, today. I assumed from the phrasing of Ford's question that he had that part down.

Ugh. I didn't want to decide today, because I'm under the weather

[Joseph2302]

I think {Galz, Maxford, LL, Eevee} are the 4 scummiest, in that order

I'm trusting Faust, but that is mainly because I think Galz is scummier, and I don't think they can both be scum, based on their interactions

[Maxford]

Okay, I'll follow your read Space...

Vote: Eevee

Does that secure the lynch?

[SpaceAnemone]

Well, it looks like a hammer to me.

Are you secretly scum who's just hammered their first townie??

[Galzria]

Hiding, not responding to much, limited engagement & no strong, bold, or expressive reads? That’s exactly how most noob!scum act.

Fun fact: at the point you posted this, it brought you up to parity in terms of how many game posts you'd made compared to Maxford. He's now one response ahead of you again!

Space harping on Galzria's post count when he has clearly been present and making analysis for all of today is very odd. Even taking account the first two days where Galzria hardly posted, if we analyzed word count and not post count (especially if we removed total fluff posts), he'd be nearer the top than the bottom of the living town.

This.

[Joseph2302]

I would have gone for Eevee nearer the deadline I guess. I'm trusting that faust or LL could stop a kill, otherwise we should have no lynched

PPE: 1

[Galzria]

Well, it looks like a hammer to me.

Are you secretly scum who's just hammered their first townie??

Yes, that’s hammer on Eevee. 😞

Can only hope he’s scum, and I’m wrong on the pairing between him & LaLight.

[Joseph2302]

Well, it looks like a hammer to me.

Are you secretly scum who's just hammered their first townie??

If they're town, then they're brave to hammer with still a few hours to go

And if their scum and Eevee is town, there would have been a coaching session about this last night, I guess

PPE: 1

[faust]

This looks promising. Now we can only hope that my reads aren't completely off.

[Joseph2302]

If Eevee is scum, this gives good reads for me for the rest of the game

No way scum!Maxford hammers scum!Eevee there, in their first mafia game

[Maxford]

I just hope I didn't make a stupid mistake here...

[Joseph2302]

I just hope I didn't make a stupid mistake here...

You're town then?

[Maxford]

Yeap

Also, if I'm wrong, I hope one of Your PRs can prevent a night kill

[Maxford]

Yeap

Also, if I'm wrong, I hope one of Your PRs can prevent a night kill

Meant our PRs (writing from my phone)

[Joseph2302]

Yeap

Also, if I'm wrong, I hope one of Your PRs can prevent a night kill

If you're wrong, don't feel bad about it
I probably would've hammered that wagon later

[Joseph2302]

Actually, given that I think me, Maxford, raerae & Space are town, that means at least one of faust & LL is scum

[Joseph2302]

Assuming Eevee is scum, I think the other 2 scum are Galz and LL

Because faust/Galz scum team still doesn't work for me

If Eevee flips town, it's a lot more complicated (if we even reach the next day)

Either way, I believe Maxford is town almost 100%

[Joseph2302]

Just posting my thoughts now, in case I get NKed

[Eevee]

Just posting my thoughts now, in case I get NKed

No need, gg scum.

[Eevee]

If you somehow make it to tomorrow, I think most if not all of the scum team was on my wagon. Space and Maxford look especially scummy to me. Joseph or faust for the third?

[LaLight]

I am 100% sure Maxford is scu. I hope we live to tomorrow.

[raerae]

I am 100% sure Maxford is scu. I hope we live to tomorrow.

Do you actually have something to claim or not?  This hinting thing is really not helpful.

[LaLight]

I am 100% sure Maxford is scu. I hope we live to tomorrow.

Do you actually have something to claim or not?  This hinting thing is really not helpful.

Do you really think I should do it now? Oo

[raerae]

I am 100% sure Maxford is scu. I hope we live to tomorrow.

Do you actually have something to claim or not?  This hinting thing is really not helpful.

Do you really think I should do it now? Oo

Why wouldn't you unless you know you aren't going to be the NK?  Your continued dancing around the subject makes you significantly less town for me.  You hinted info on Eevee yesterday and today, after the lunch, you KNOW Maxford is scum.  It doesn't make any sense.

[LaLight]

I am 100% sure Maxford is scu. I hope we live to tomorrow.

Do you actually have something to claim or not?  This hinting thing is really not helpful.

Do you really think I should do it now? Oo

Why wouldn't you unless you know you aren't going to be the NK?  Your continued dancing around the subject makes you significantly less town for me.  You hinted info on Eevee yesterday and today, after the lunch, you KNOW Maxford is scum.  It doesn't make any sense.

Well, Maxford just obviously quickhammered and doesn't claim scum in case we live to another day, isn't it obvious?

It's not something tied to my PR. Actually the read on Eevee also is not, I don't know why you so decided.

[raerae]

I am 100% sure Maxford is scu. I hope we live to tomorrow.

Do you actually have something to claim or not?  This hinting thing is really not helpful.

Do you really think I should do it now? Oo

Why wouldn't you unless you know you aren't going to be the NK?  Your continued dancing around the subject makes you significantly less town for me.  You hinted info on Eevee yesterday and today, after the lunch, you KNOW Maxford is scum.  It doesn't make any sense.

Well, Maxford just obviously quickhammered and doesn't claim scum in case we live to another day, isn't it obvious?

It's not something tied to my PR. Actually the read on Eevee also is not, I don't know why you so decided.

faust quickhammered yesterday and your vote didn't go there today.  Maxford didn't claim scum, nobody claimed scum, are we all scum?  You definitely hinted that your Eevee thing was tied to a PR, or at least that's what you let everybody believe, this isn't the first time it's come up but it is the first time you've disputed it.

[LaLight]

I am 100% sure Maxford is scu. I hope we live to tomorrow.

Do you actually have something to claim or not?  This hinting thing is really not helpful.

Do you really think I should do it now? Oo

Why wouldn't you unless you know you aren't going to be the NK?  Your continued dancing around the subject makes you significantly less town for me.  You hinted info on Eevee yesterday and today, after the lunch, you KNOW Maxford is scum.  It doesn't make any sense.

Well, Maxford just obviously quickhammered and doesn't claim scum in case we live to another day, isn't it obvious?

It's not something tied to my PR. Actually the read on Eevee also is not, I don't know why you so decided.

faust quickhammered yesterday and your vote didn't go there today.  Maxford didn't claim scum, nobody claimed scum, are we all scum?  You definitely hinted that your Eevee thing was tied to a PR, or at least that's what you let everybody believe, this isn't the first time it's come up but it is the first time you've disputed it.

I've never said anything that in any way hinted any result on anyone.

I am sorry for ambiguity if there was any. I am trying to claim as little info as possible just to not give this info to scum.

[Swowl]

THREAD LOCKED!

[Swowl]

   "We have done it! We have won!"

The Evil Kings celebrate their victory over the Deck they call home. Their rule will continue over the Numerically-Aligned Cards.

   "Good job brothers!"
"Yes indeed!"
   
The third King lets out a sigh of discomfort...

   "What is it brother? Are you not pleased?"
"It is not that... it is just... This Deck is so small... and only one of many, many Decks. I feel as if we should not stop here... I want more!"
   "Yes! Yes! Let us start planning immediately. Soon all of the Decks will be under our rule!"




Eevee has been lynched. They were the 10 of Hearts, the Numerically-Aligned Vanilla Townie.

[Swowl]

Final Vote Count:

Eevee (5): faust, raerae, LaLight,  SpaceAnemone, Maxford
Maxford (2): Galzria, Eevee
LaLight(1): Joseph


With 8 players alive, it took 5 to lynch.

The game has ended. The Skum team of faust, Maxford, raerae, MiX has won!

*There were no roles left in the game that could prevent Skum from killing a Town Player tonight, tomorrow night, or any other night in the game. Therefore, due to the fact that there is nothing that can prevent Skum from winning this game, I have called it.

Congratulations to Skum! Good game to Town as well.

I will be releasing the QTs as soon as I get home this evening. Sorry the flip took so long.


Thank you to everyone that participated! This was my first game as a MOD and I had a blast! I hope you enjoyed yourselves as well! Thank you!

[Swowl]

Thread Unlocked.

I will post QTs when I have a sec tonight!

[MiX]

raerae is MVP for being town as scum.

I love everyone in this game!!! It was a blast, I had so much fun! Yaaaaaaay scum win!!! I'm so happy 

Man scum was on FIRE: faust didn't die, Maxford just went under the grid all game, even when Galzria saw through it, and raerae...raerae just got all the towncred required to win.

Speccy. And my QT because why not? There's a message there for joth.

[raerae]

Sorry for killing you so soon, Didds!!

[EFHW]

raerae is MVP for being town as scum.

I love everyone in this game!!! It was a blast, I had so much fun! Yaaaaaaay scum win!!! I'm so happy 

Man scum was on FIRE: faust didn't die, Maxford just went under the grid all game, even when Galzria saw through it, and raerae...raerae just got all the towncred required to win.

Speccy. And my QT because why not? There's a message there for joth.

Pretty sure MVP is Swan's call.

[WestCoastDidds]

Sorry for killing you so soon, Didds!!

I figured the only person who would kill me so early was you!

[raerae]

Sorry for killing you so soon, Didds!!

I figured the only person who would kill me so early was you!

Well, if you weren't so damn townie!

[WestCoastDidds]

Sorry for killing you so soon, Didds!!

I figured the only person who would kill me so early was you!

Well, if you weren't so damn townie!

Right?!

[LaLight]

So, it was Faust after all. Shit

[raerae]

Super awesome job, DatSwan and EFHW! I had a family time despite the terror depicted in my QT

[jotheonah]

raerae is MVP for being town as scum.

I love everyone in this game!!! It was a blast, I had so much fun! Yaaaaaaay scum win!!! I'm so happy 

Man scum was on FIRE: faust didn't die, Maxford just went under the grid all game, even when Galzria saw through it, and raerae...raerae just got all the towncred required to win.

Speccy. And my QT because why not? There's a message there for joth.

The link to your QT, it does not work.

[jotheonah]

Man I’m glad I was so right about faust and Galz, sad I was so wrong about Eevee and faust and Joseph.

[Galzria]

Sigh

[raerae]

Sigh

Sorry man.

[Galzria]

Sigh

Sorry man.

Pfft, don’t blame you, you were townie on the final day.

[faust]

I still don't quite understand how I made it through this last day.

[faust]

Not sure what roles were left in the game, but I think the setup was a bit scum-sided.

[Swowl]

Okie Dokie here we go:

- First off, thank you so much to everyone that played. I hope you enjoyed it! Also, special thanks to EFHW for helping me out and proofing my setup and helping Co-Mod the game. I really appreciate it!

- Here are the QTs. I am not going to post personal QTs, so if you want them shared, please feel free to do so yourself

   Skum QT: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/zDFUKX44Bef9j
   Mason QT: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/tvKR5aPrGJS
   MOD QT: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/AHygdU9Sc4eji
   Speccy: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/bhNSmFR7mctsS
   


- Here was how the game was set up:

Role PMs:

   5 of Diamonds (Example for all VT Roles):
•    “Welcome to Poker Mafia. You are the 5 of Diamonds, the Numerically-Aligned Vanilla Townie. You have your flavor, your wits, and your vote to help you free the box from the regime of the Evil Kings.
You win when all the Mafia-Aligned Cards are dead. Good Luck!”


   Jack of Spades
•   “Welcome to Poker Mafia. You are the Jack of Spades, the Numerically-Aligned Mason. While you are not specifically a numerical card, you despise the way the Evil Kings treat the rest of your fellow cards, and have such decided to help them escape their dismal fate.
Your partner is XXXXX. This is the link to your shared QT with XXXXX <html insert here>. This thread will remain open Day and Night. You may post there until you are lynched or killed.

   Jack of Hearts
•   “Welcome to Poker Mafia. You are the Jack of Hearts, the Numerically-Aligned Mason. While you are not specifically a numerical card, you despise the way the Evil Kings treat the rest of your fellow cards, and have such decided to help them escape their dismal fate.
Your partner is XXXXX. This is the link to your shared QT with XXXXX <html insert here>. This thread will remain open Day and Night. You may post there until you are lynched or killed.


   2 of Clubs
•   “Welcome to Poker Mafia. You are the 2 of Clubs, the Numerically-Aligned Day 2 Innocent Child. Your role will be confirmed by the MOD at the start of Day 2 in the public Game Thread... should you survive that far.
You win when all the Mafia-Aligned Cards are dead. Good Luck!”


   Queen of Diamonds 
•   “Welcome to Poker Mafia. You are the Queen of Diamonds, the Numerically-Aligned 2-Shot Doctor. At night, you may attempt to protect a player from 1 killing action by submitting the command ‘Target: Playername’ in this personal QT. 
You win when all the Mafia-Aligned Cards are dead. Good Luck!”


   10 of Clubs
•   “Welcome to Poker Mafia. You are the 10 of Clubs, the Numerically-Aligned 1-Shot Cop. At night, you may check the alignment of one player, recieving a result of either Numerically-Aligned or Not Numerically-Aligned, by submitting the command ‘Target: Playername’ in this personal QT.
You win when all the Mafia-Aligned Cards are dead. Good Luck!”



King of Spades:
Welcome to Poker Mafia. You are the Evil King of Spades.
Your Fake Claim is the 4 of Spades.
Here is the link to your shared Mafia QT. You may only post here at night while you are still alive in the game: <Mafia QT>
You win when all the Numerically-Aligned Cards are dead, or there is nothing that can prevent that from happening.


King of Diamonds:
Welcome to Poker Mafia. You are the Evil King of Diamonds.
Your Fake Claim is the 8 of Diamonds.
Here is the link to your shared Mafia QT. You may only post here at night while you are still alive in the game: <Mafia QT>
You win when all the Numerically-Aligned Cards are dead, or there is nothing that can prevent that from happening.


King of Clubs:
Welcome to Poker Mafia. You are the Evil King of Clubs.
Your Fake Claim is the 3 of Clubs.
Here is the link to your shared Mafia QT. You may only post here at night while you are still alive in the game: <Mafia QT>
You win when all the Numerically-Aligned Cards are dead, or there is nothing that can prevent that from happening.


The Joker:
Welcome to Poker Mafia. You are the Joker, the Evil King-Aligned Traitor.
While you know the identities of the Evil Kings, they do not know who you are. The Evil Kings are <INSERT MAFIA NAMES>.
You are also a 2-Shot Role Blocker. Twice during the game, you may target a player by submitting the command ‘Target: Playername’ in this personal QT. You may only submit 1 total night action per night.
Your Fake Claim is the 9 of Hearts.
You win when all the Numerically-Aligned Cards are dead, or there is nothing that can prevent that from happening.



Additional Information:

- Town Reloading Ability - If Cop or Doctor ever targeted someone of the same suit as them with their ability, they would be reloaded with a shot at the start of the following day. Skum was informed of this at the start of Day 2. Originally was gonna be start of game, but for balance, decided to wait a day.

- Skum Godfather - Skum chose 1 of them to be GF during Night 0.

- Skum had a communal 1-Shot Strongman

- Any one Skum could only take 1 action per night. Traitor lost RB shots if recruited.



Game Balance:

- As the game went on, it became apparent that skum was indeed slightly over powered. Mainly because I did not think the value of having an odd amount of start players through enough before launch. Even just 1 more VT would of made a pretty substantial difference I think.

- Rolling Numbers and Suits. So, the numbers didn't really matter for VT's. I thought the most fair way to keep WIFOM from going bezerk was to do all 13 cards, and make sure that skum had fake claims that were not taken numerically by town players. So I assigned the number portions of roles to the roles prior to rolling for the roles. The suits were done randomly. It actually surprisingly only took one try, but there were circumstances for re-rolls I put in place for the re-load ability to prevent things like follow-the-cop, invincible-mason... things like that.



There were for sure mistakes made, and def there is room for improvement... but I seriously loved doing this, it was so much fun. Expect the next one to be better! Also, any and all comments on the set up are appreciated if you see something that you think could of been better!


THANKS FOR PLAYING POKER MAFIA!

[Joseph2302]

So, it was Faust after all. Shit

Yep I was right about this. Just wrong about everyone else....

[MiX]

Pretty sure MVP is Swan's call.

Well that's my nomination of course.

The link to your QT, it does not work.

I'll just quote you the thing:

""laziness is not a scumtell." - joth (#293)

He said, scumreading me for being lazy. I really want to show him this, maybe he'll improve and not just softclaim PR to get out of a lynch."

Just something I thought was relevent.


...there was a masonry???

[MiX]

Oh, and there's this post I want to point out:

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

Seems solid, I'm in.

If that's not raerae signaling that they're scum with us 3...then I don't know why she said this

[SpaceAnemone]

raerae is MVP for being town as scum.

Yeah, she played really well! LL and I did end up with suspicions in the end, though.. this is the plan coming into the final game day from our Mason QT:

Incidentally, I think we should keep an eye on Raerae while acting like she's a top townread. She was the one most against me giving faust a D1 pass, and felt like the one most on our side during the MiX and Joth lynches.. but that could conceivably have come from a position of clever scum. Also, she actually made a deal out of that thing I'd said "just in case Joth flips town" and said I was lining her up.. I think she was much more likely to have read into it like that if she'd known how he'd flip than if she'd been as confident as I was about him flipping scum. For now, I'd prefer her to think we're on her side, so that when scum comes to pick tomorrow night's NK, we're seen as allies not to be lynched off too lightly. And on the off-chance she's town, if we talk up her towniness, then she becomes a strong NK contender, and we survive unrevealed for another night, which I think overall is pro-town.

Of course, most of the rest of the ideas we had in there were not so useful, like the whole Joth thing! I do wish we'd stuck with the plan of lynching off faust instead of getting all confused at the end, though :-( Sorry, rest of the town!!

[SpaceAnemone]

Oh, and there's this post I want to point out:

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

Seems solid, I'm in.

If that's not raerae signaling that they're scum with us 3...then I don't know why she said this

Haha, that is good! I'd support Raerae for MVP on that basis :-P

I've also enjoyed how I seem to have been read as the traitor in the scum QT for my comment there...

Though I have to say, I'm feeling rather proud of the shiny new scum I brought to f.ds, and the way he handled himself :-)

[raerae]

Oh, and there's this post I want to point out:

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

Seems solid, I'm in.

If that's not raerae signaling that they're scum with us 3...then I don't know why she said this

Why I say everything, it amuses me.

[jotheonah]

Pretty sure MVP is Swan's call.

Well that's my nomination of course.

The link to your QT, it does not work.

But.... you were scum!

I'll just quote you the thing:

""laziness is not a scumtell." - joth (#293)

He said, scumreading me for being lazy. I really want to show him this, maybe he'll improve and not just softclaim PR to get out of a lynch."

Just something I thought was relevent.


...there was a masonry???

[jotheonah]

Pretty sure MVP is Swan's call.

Well that's my nomination of course.

The link to your QT, it does not work.

I'll just quote you the thing:

""laziness is not a scumtell." - joth (#293)

He said, scumreading me for being lazy. I really want to show him this, maybe he'll improve and not just softclaim PR to get out of a lynch."

Just something I thought was relevent.


...there was a masonry???

...but you were scum!

[MiX]

Exactly, you were scumreading me for the correct reasons and then you say it's not a scumtell. It was! I was feeling very lazy because I was traitor! So, yeah, that.

[raerae]

Oh, and there's this post I want to point out:

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

Seems solid, I'm in.

If that's not raerae signaling that they're scum with us 3...then I don't know why she said this

Why I say everything, it amuses me.

Sorry, gotta hit on this again. Why would I signal, to the entire team that already knows who I am, that I am on their team?? That's just stupid.

[shraeye]

Oh, and there's this post I want to point out:

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

Seems solid, I'm in.

If that's not raerae signaling that they're scum with us 3...then I don't know why she said this

Why in the wide world would she chime in just to let her partners know that she remembers that they are her partners?  A signal??

[shraeye]

Oh, and there's this post I want to point out:

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

Seems solid, I'm in.

If that's not raerae signaling that they're scum with us 3...then I don't know why she said this

Haha, that is good! I'd support Raerae for MVP on that basis :-P

I've also enjoyed how I seem to have been read as the traitor in the scum QT for my comment there...

Though I have to say, I'm feeling rather proud of the shiny new scum I brought to f.ds, and the way he handled himself :-)

Yeah, Maxford, please stay for plenty more games, you were great!!

[MiX]

Oh, and there's this post I want to point out:

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

Seems solid, I'm in.

If that's not raerae signaling that they're scum with us 3...then I don't know why she said this

Why in the wide world would she chime in just to let her partners know that she remembers that they are her partners?  A signal??

So I could stop signaling? Because that's when I stopped signaling.

[Joseph2302]

Oh, and there's this post I want to point out:

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

Seems solid, I'm in.

If that's not raerae signaling that they're scum with us 3...then I don't know why she said this

Haha, that is good! I'd support Raerae for MVP on that basis :-P

I've also enjoyed how I seem to have been read as the traitor in the scum QT for my comment there...

Though I have to say, I'm feeling rather proud of the shiny new scum I brought to f.ds, and the way he handled himself :-)

Yeah, Maxford, please stay for plenty more games, you were great!!

Seconded. You did better as newbie!scum than most of us did

[Swowl]

MVP this one goes to raerae.


Obviously, as it was my first game I put wayyyy more consideration into this choice than is probably needed. But since I did I would like everyone to know that it was an essential coin flip imo between all three skum.

No one ever thought Maxford was skum, unless... and I am quoting a lot of people here "they are just so good". That was a theme that continued through most of the game for a lot of people.

Faust somehow did not just get insta lynched the final day... even tho the skum plan was to bus him. Skum then used that to rally the win, which obviously was good for them.

But rae really shined through in the end there. They went from a null-skum to an unlynchable in most people's eyes when it mattered the most, so for that they get the cred.


Thank you again for playing everyone, you all played a great game!!

I hope to do another one soon (Hunger Games Theme)

[Maxford]

Oh, and there's this post I want to point out:

I think I really want MiX, Maxford and faust to be the scumteam so they could be MiXfaurd.

Seems solid, I'm in.

If that's not raerae signaling that they're scum with us 3...then I don't know why she said this

Haha, that is good! I'd support Raerae for MVP on that basis :-P

I've also enjoyed how I seem to have been read as the traitor in the scum QT for my comment there...

Though I have to say, I'm feeling rather proud of the shiny new scum I brought to f.ds, and the way he handled himself :-)

Yeah, Maxford, please stay for plenty more games, you were great!!

Thanks a lot!

It was a lot of fun, especially on the final day. I will definitely join more games when I have the time!

I enjoyed the flavor, but I'm a bit sad it didn't come into play more. We had a whole plan with raerae and faust to swap our fake claims, that would have been fun.

[raerae]

MVP this one goes to raerae.


Obviously, as it was my first game I put wayyyy more consideration into this choice than is probably needed. But since I did I would like everyone to know that it was an essential coin flip imo between all three skum.

No one ever thought Maxford was skum, unless... and I am quoting a lot of people here "they are just so good". That was a theme that continued through most of the game for a lot of people.

Faust somehow did not just get insta lynched the final day... even tho the skum plan was to bus him. Skum then used that to rally the win, which obviously was good for them.

But rae really shined through in the end there. They went from a null-skum to an unlynchable in most people's eyes when it mattered the most, so for that they get the cred.


Thank you again for playing everyone, you all played a great game!!

I hope to do another one soon (Hunger Games Theme)

Thank you, Swowl!! This was a really great time and I'm looking forward to your next one!

[WestCoastDidds]

Great game, Swan! Thanks for running it!

[jotheonah]

That was kind of a nightmare scum team. Good job.