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lillu99

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Questions from newish player
« on: August 26, 2019, 05:25:45 am »
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Hi everyone,
 
I am trying to decide between splurging on Mystic vale or Dominion. I have been looking at Dominion for some time, but never did buy it (I am a completionnist and I knew that, were I to start investing in it I would get most expansions…). In the meantime, I tried a lot of deckbuilders (ascension, Star Realms, Puzzle Strike, Mystic Vale, Shards of infinity), and, as a former CCG player, this is a kind of games that really appeals to me. Still, most of them are not that deep. Obviously, I did not expect Mage Knight-like depth (a great game with deck-building elements) but still, “river-like” games such as Ascension or Star Realms are by nature quite chaotic.

Mystic Vale seemed, to me, a bit more original with the card crafing mechanics (which I love) and the use of both vales and different levels of advancements that seems to limit the chaos and increase decision space. I have mainly played the base game and the 1st expansion with the app. Also, it seems that it plays well multiplayer (I usually have 2 or 3-player sessions) and possibly solo (for training purposes), playing 2-handed as there is basically no hidden information.

As to Dominion, it has recently came to my attention anew. I like the “market” mechanics, the simplicity of the core system but the fact that it can be (and has been)  complexified with expansions. Hence, it seems that with the right amount of expansions the game is first and foremost a game of skill but one that can be played in something like 30' with 2 players, allowing for multiple games in an evening (with the same market to try different strategies, or changing a few cards at a time).

Also, and related to that, I particularly like the fact that there are extensive discussions/articles about cards, combos and strategies, something that I usually miss from my CCG days. It will never have MK's level of depth but I think this is a game that rewards skill and allows one to improve one's skill by "studying" the game right ?

I have a few questions though :

- What articles/discussions would you recommend for someone wanting to study the base game ? I already found some videos, but I am more of a "reading" kind of person generally as I tend to "retain" more of what I read than what I watch.

- how well does it play with 3 players (does it become too long and uninteractive ?) ?

- when you have multiple expansions, do you usually mix everything or combine just a few expansions that tend to mix well (I recall reading something along those lines, such as I think, Properity (or Adventures) and Empires) or do you stick for a while with just the expansion. I fear that when miing too many expansions some effects might get diluted.

- related to that, how do you store/sort the game ? I probably intend to buy a big cardboard box (something like that : https://www.bcwsupplies.com/card-game-box-black-white). Have you sleeved all your cards btw ? It makes for a lot of sleeving ! As to sorting, would sorting by expansion then alphabetically work ? With maybe dividers just for the different expansions and maybe the "common" cards. My idea would be to also have a kind of smaller "travel box" holding the common cards and enough cards to do a few different markets when I play at my friends'. 

Any comments/remarks/suggestions are appreciated.
thanks !
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Awaclus

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Re: Questions from newish player
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2019, 05:38:49 am »
+1

As for how well it plays with three players, you can try that out for yourself online. Most people prefer 2p games as they are more competitive than multiplayer games, but YMMV.
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Re: Questions from newish player
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2019, 07:05:11 am »
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I have a few questions though :

- What articles/discussions would you recommend for someone wanting to study the base game ? I already found some videos, but I am more of a "reading" kind of person generally as I tend to "retain" more of what I read than what I watch.

the wiki/this forum. there's a subforum that does deep dives on individual sets/cards; otherwise the interesting interactions thread and the secret histories.

- how well does it play with 3 players (does it become too long and uninteractive ?) ?

it plays smoothly with up to four, unless your group is AP prone. Five and six work but expect downtime.

- when you have multiple expansions, do you usually mix everything or combine just a few expansions that tend to mix well (I recall reading something along those lines, such as I think, Properity (or Adventures) and Empires) or do you stick for a while with just the expansion. I fear that when miing too many expansions some effects might get diluted.

mix it in; dilute doesnt matter, you can always pull specifically those cards to play with.

related to that, how do you store/sort the game ? I probably intend to buy a big cardboard box (something like that : https://www.bcwsupplies.com/card-game-box-black-white). Have you sleeved all your cards btw ? It makes for a lot of sleeving ! As to sorting, would sorting by expansion then alphabetically work ? With maybe dividers just for the different expansions and maybe the "common" cards. My idea would be to also have a kind of smaller "travel box" holding the common cards and enough cards to do a few different markets when I play at my friends'. 

Any comments/remarks/suggestions are appreciated.
thanks !

i did this + kept original boxes. ymmv - one box with everything is gonna weigh abt 60lbs tho.
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segura

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Re: Questions from newish player
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2019, 10:21:55 am »
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In my opinion Dominion scales well from 2-3 players. I would not recommend 4 player games.

While there are some intra-expansion combobs, there are also inter-expansion combos so mixing expansions is no problem at all.

The only reason to not mix everything together at once is a didactic one, i.e. if you don't want to confront yourself and your gaming group with too many mechanisms at once.
Obviously that depends on how well versed your fellow players are with deckbuilders. I started off in my gaming group with all the expansions until Dark Ages with no fundamental problems (there are always some funky rule issues that you have to read up) and then introduced each new expansion as it was released (then initially playing with 5 Kingdom cards from the new expansions and 5 Kingdom cards from all the old ones).
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Questions from newish player
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2019, 03:57:42 pm »
+1

In the meantime, I tried a lot of deckbuilders (ascension, Star Realms, Puzzle Strike, Mystic Vale, Shards of infinity), and, as a former CCG player, this is a kind of games that really appeals to me. Still, most of them are not that deep.

As to Dominion, it has recently came to my attention anew. I like the “market” mechanics, the simplicity of the core system but the fact that it can be (and has been)  complexified with expansions. Hence, it seems that with the right amount of expansions the game is first and foremost a game of skill but one that can be played in something like 30' with 2 players, allowing for multiple games in an evening (with the same market to try different strategies, or changing a few cards at a time).

Also, and related to that, I particularly like the fact that there are extensive discussions/articles about cards, combos and strategies, something that I usually miss from my CCG days. It will never have MK's level of depth but I think this is a game that rewards skill and allows one to improve one's skill by "studying" the game right ?

I have a few questions though :

- What articles/discussions would you recommend for someone wanting to study the base game ? I already found some videos, but I am more of a "reading" kind of person generally as I tend to "retain" more of what I read than what I watch.

- related to that, how do you store/sort the game ? I probably intend to buy a big cardboard box (something like that : https://www.bcwsupplies.com/card-game-box-black-white). Have you sleeved all your cards btw ? It makes for a lot of sleeving ! As to sorting, would sorting by expansion then alphabetically work ? With maybe dividers just for the different expansions and maybe the "common" cards. My idea would be to also have a kind of smaller "travel box" holding the common cards and enough cards to do a few different markets when I play at my friends'. 

Any comments/remarks/suggestions are appreciated.
thanks !

As did probably many people, I also came to Dominion from liking CCG/TCG. Compared to those kinds of games, I love Dominion more because it's like a fair limited format (only access to 10 kingdom cards to buy each game, and both players have access to the same cards) that gives you a pretty different experience most games you play.

At least in my experience, it usually takes me and my friends ~1 hr to play most in-person games, unless there happens to be a really fast strategy. I do play a little slower in-person, so maybe that is why, but just be ready for this.

There is a lot you can study and improve with this game. It's different than studying for a CCG, though--there isn't really a meta that you're studying, but moreso different ways of approaching different kingdoms and some tactical play. E.g., what types of cards should I get first and how does that change if my opponent goes for this other kind of card, etc.

Base game learning: I know you said you like reading more, but this playlist of base set games by Burning Skull is excellent for new players -

My personal storage solution: https://www.reddit.com/r/dominion/comments/b3e4y4/my_free_storage_solution_for_all_expansions/ . If you have more than a few expansions, you'll want to sort alphabetically overall, not alphabetically by expansion--there are too many cards to remember what cards go in which expansions.

If you want to see what a briefcase solution would look like, here is Adam Horton's storage: https://adamhorton.com/flog/dominion-storage/
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popsofctown

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Re: Questions from newish player
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2019, 05:20:33 pm »
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I played like 4 games of Mystic Vale, it's such a hard pass to me. 

1. The push your luck mechanic often presents an intriguing decision, but shortly afterwards the snowballing inherent to deckbuilder's can almost totally shutoff catchup for one player.  Dominion actually presents some decisions I consider pretty similar when you choose when to transition to green cards, but because this decision happens at the end of the game instead of the beginning there aren't as many gruelfests that have to be played out.  They do occur from time to time, sometimes both people green too early and have both misread the game state, and both players degrade their own deck quality too much to reach Province, and it's a little bit hilarious, and there are subsets of that where one player has a clear upper hand, but it's rare.
2. The card building aspect only nudges at win %s, but the physical manipulation necessary with the cards in your hand is heavily costly.  This is kind of an argument similar to "Please stop printing land cards that only do 1 point of life damage and require an entire shuffle of the deck" if your familiar with that magic criticism.  The card building aspect is cool and sometimes it matters when you can combine 2 effects you want to appear together for sure.  But it's rather obvious that putting Alpha on Charlie and putting Bravo on Delta is identical to putting Alpha and Bravo on Charlie in the subsets of hands where you draw both cards.  If you're playing on an app this hassle is being hidden from you. 
3. You lose a little bit of decisionmaking from it not being a game where you play cards.  This isn't a bigggie though, all deckbuilders are 90% about what you buy.

The -good- thing about Mystic Vale is that the point salad/alt resource minigame does seem pretty intriguing and often nonobvious to parse out but it's not enough to make me want to forgive the other issues.

I guess Star Realms is even worse, but I'd much rather play Puzzle Strike.  And I'd rather play Dominion for sure.

Base game feels like something is missing, 1 expansion feels like something is missing, 2 expansions generally feels like nothing is missing but occasionally you get a certain mix of cards where it feels more like it does.  By 3 you could probably just not buy an expansion again and be fine, combinatorics is amazing, how does RGG make all the money, who knows.

Caveat that I'm the kind of guy who will draft a 15$ card and play it unsleeved, but I'd give some consideration to deciding not to sleeve Dominion.  The potential advantage from marked cards is usually low and as you notice cards becoming marked you can put them on the bottom of their respective supply piles to mitigate the issue.  And man, it's a lot of sleeves to sleeve.

Mage Knight is far more important to sleeve, knowing the top card of your deck is more consistently a big deal in that game.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Questions from newish player
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2019, 10:37:45 pm »
+1

I have played Mystic Vale. I actually own all the expansions and have played the game a lot. I also own all the Dominion expansions and played that game a lot more. Honestly, Mystic Vale is less strategic and more random. Dominion is a more strategic game and honestly it's more fun to play. So, I would recommend Dominion if you're only going to get one game.
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crj

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Re: Questions from newish player
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2019, 06:12:36 pm »
+1

Definitely try to lift Mystic Vale: Conclave before deciding Mystic Vale is less daunting for a completionist. (-8

While the card crafting mechanic in Mystic Vale is cute, personally I found it irritating in two respects.

Firstly, mechanically, it's really hard to get a fair and effective shuffle of a deck where the cards aren't all the same thickness. If you have a pair of heavily-expanded cards, it's a pretty safe bet two unexpanded cards will slip between them. I'd not played enough to figure out if that is an unfair advantage or an unfair disadvantage, only enough to know that it really bugs me.

Secondly, the bit where each card has a top, middle and bottom slot which work equivalently but you just know that what you really want will turn up for a top slot when you have a bottom slot spare... that feels artificial and frustrating more than intriguing. Looked at another way, when you lose Dominion, you feel like you achieved something fun, just not something as awesome as the winner did. In Mystic Vale, when you lose you feel like you suffered terribly through a series of poorly-chosen or unlucky gambles, and your progress was stunted in an un-fun way as a result.

I will play Mystic Vale if I'm otherwise not getting a game of anything. That's better than some games, but still not saying much.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Questions from newish player
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2019, 07:45:23 am »
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- What articles/discussions would you recommend for someone wanting to study the base game ? I already found some videos, but I am more of a "reading" kind of person generally as I tend to "retain" more of what I read than what I watch.

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com has lots of articles.

- how well does it play with 3 players (does it become too long and uninteractive ?) ?

Most of the people on this forum play and prefer 2 player games, but I've almost only played 3- and 4-player games, and it works fine. Yes, there's more downtime, but action cards and victory cards will also run out faster. You have to adapt your playstyle to the player count. Changing the kingdom cards can also help.

- when you have multiple expansions, do you usually mix everything or combine just a few expansions that tend to mix well (I recall reading something along those lines, such as I think, Properity (or Adventures) and Empires) or do you stick for a while with just the expansion. I fear that when mixing too many expansions some effects might get diluted.

Both. I wrote my own kingdom generator in Java because the ones I found online didn't have the functionality I wanted. Some expansions work well together though (Guilds/Prosperity, for example).

- related to that, how do you store/sort the game ? I probably intend to buy a big cardboard box (something like that : https://www.bcwsupplies.com/card-game-box-black-white). Have you sleeved all your cards btw ? It makes for a lot of sleeving ! As to sorting, would sorting by expansion then alphabetically work ? With maybe dividers just for the different expansions and maybe the "common" cards. My idea would be to also have a kind of smaller "travel box" holding the common cards and enough cards to do a few different markets when I play at my friends'. 

Ultra Pro collector's albums. 10 or 12 cards in every pocket. No sleeves.
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lillu99

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Re: Questions from newish player
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2019, 05:03:18 am »
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thanks everyone for the insightful comments/remarks.
I have caved in in ordered quite a few (a lot actually :-) expansions as well as some seem hard to find sometimes.

I am still torn on 2 things : sleeving or not and the organization.

As to the latter, I have also bought a few cardboard BCW box and I think I will store the cards vertically in them, by expansion and then alphabetically. I don't want to mix everything (at least for now) for 2 reasons : (i) at first, I want to mostly combine 2-3 expansions that (ii) will go in a "traval box" with all the necessary material to play up to 3 players;
Do you use dividers BTW ? I have a laminator but printing, cutting and laminating about 300 cards will be a long and tedious process...

As to sleeving, I usually do sleeve my card games, but here it seems quite inefficient to sleeve everything.
Hence, I am considering sleeving all starting cards for 3 players and them giving everyone about 30 sleeves to sleeve acquired cards in-game.
Then, I see 2 options : (i) either everyone unsleeve at the end of the game or (ii) we leave it as is, so that cards that are used the most will remain sleeved and the others will still be unsleeved. As such, the game will be sleeved progressively.
What do you think ?
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scolapasta

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Re: Questions from newish player
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2019, 02:12:36 pm »
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As to sleeving, I usually do sleeve my card games, but here it seems quite inefficient to sleeve everything.
Hence, I am considering sleeving all starting cards for 3 players and them giving everyone about 30 sleeves to sleeve acquired cards in-game.
Then, I see 2 options : (i) either everyone unsleeve at the end of the game or (ii) we leave it as is, so that cards that are used the most will remain sleeved and the others will still be unsleeved. As such, the game will be sleeved progressively.
What do you think ?

Why would you have anyone unsleeve? Just keep them sleeved and sleeve progressively each time you play (or in your free time).

I have everything sleeved (well, except randomizers). At some point I bought a new expansion, but they were out of sleeves, so I had to make due with ones I already had (i.e. not enough to sleeve the whole set). So I just sleeves as we played (I went with the proactive approach of making sure the top card of each pile was sleeved, and if a card was gained, I would sleeve the next card of the pile). Eventually, of course, I bought more sleeves and sleeved the rest.
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Re: Questions from newish player
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2019, 02:38:05 pm »
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I'm just using BCW 550 count boxes. I sleeve all the cards with the flimsy type sleeves, and use some simple custom dividers. Every set fits into one of these boxes, with all the bits (although I had to cut the trash mat).

Hinterlands, with only 300 cards and no extra bits, has extra space which I use for extra base cards (the Base Cards "expansion").

The three small sets (Alchemy, Cornucopia and Guilds) fit into one box, also including all the promos and the coin tokens from Guilds, but it's getting tight. I don't have the latest two promos, so I'm not sure if they woud fit.

Sleeving is highly recommended. I started sleeving when there were only 1600 cards to sleeve, and then have done it as each set comes out. (Now there are 4223 cards to sleeve, if you only have one set of base cards and don't sleeve randomizers).

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Re: Questions from newish player
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2019, 10:10:03 pm »
+1

Funny, she doesn't look newish.
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Re: Questions from newish player
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2019, 11:34:44 pm »
+1

For expansion mixing: usually I mix them all and pick ten random cards, but occasionally I will play with just two or three expansions. Also occasionally, I will pick specific cards that I think will be interesting together. The following link (http://inprogressgaming.com/dominion-card-picker/ ) provides support for picking from any group of sets that you want, and also has a bunch of options outside of that to customize the kingdom (how many attack cards, whether you want to guarantee trashing, etc.)

Also, for storage: I store all the cards in the base game and intrigue boxes, labeled with 3x5 index cards cut in half (which just stick out over the card). I have a separate, smaller tokens + mats box. There may be room for another expansion (or two if I really cram it, which I probably will if necessary) in this solution. So it should last a few more years.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 11:38:31 pm by hhelibebcnofnena »
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