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Author Topic: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (Game over! Scum wins flawlessly.)  (Read 107293 times)

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Swowl

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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #425 on: October 17, 2019, 04:51:26 pm »


There is of course also the narrative where they both could be skum I suppose, but as people have already touched on it, I am not gonna get into it.


Wouldn't I encourage MiX voting for shraeye if I were scum and knew shraeye was town?  You can't have this cake and eat it too.  Either it's team shraerae all the way or I'm town and he's a mystery.

skum can absolutely have and eat cake. it is the advantage of being skum.
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Town:  14 wins, 14 losses (1 MVP)
Skum: 7 wins, 7 losses (1 MVP)
3-Party: 4 wins, 1 loss

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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #426 on: October 17, 2019, 04:56:23 pm »

Idk how I can be clearer about this. Try to put yourself in a scum mindset. You just pulled off a town lynch. Easy enough on day 1, but still, always a relief. You can exhale. It’s over. But then, your mislynch says he gets a vengekill! And he’s talking about your partner. He could shoot at any time. You gotta post something and quick. What’s the safest townie take? Try to talk him into shooting a townie? Of course not. That just makes you look bad after the shot. So you go to the old “don’t use the shot, town vigs are negative utility, etc, etc. That’s what I’m proposing.

I think the average townie reacts like the rest of us did: hey, town has a new weapon we can use. Yeah, we mislynched, but we get a do-over. Let’s put it to the best use we can.


I 100% completely agree with this. Especially when the suggested "second shot" is the player that you had been skum reading all day.

But MiX hadn't been reading shraeye as scum.  I'm a big enough person to admit my reads aren't fact, they're opinions.  So, if somebody hasn't been agreeing with my read but suddenly rage decides it's right I think it's my duty as town to tell that person to slow their roll and think logically.  I wouldn't have shot if I were MiX's shoes.

mix hadn't been ANYTHING - reading Shraeye. No one had.

Shayeye
1) opened with a weird flavor claim suggestion thing
2) continued to just post these strange arbitrary number lists and then ignore questions to it
3) hammered MiX

Mix knew Mix was town, when you add 1 2 and 3 together... it really wasn't like "wrong of Mix" to be suspecting Shraeye there.

Moreso... it was extremely "wrong" of you to be defending them.
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Town:  14 wins, 14 losses (1 MVP)
Skum: 7 wins, 7 losses (1 MVP)
3-Party: 4 wins, 1 loss

Galzria

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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 1)
« Reply #427 on: October 17, 2019, 05:02:30 pm »

Sorry, it was Joth, not Faust, that presented the “scum wouldn’t quick-hammer” D1 theory that makes it perfectly “safe” for scum to do just that.
Just because one person said that doesn't make it safe. In fact it makes it less safe because now you can make this argument.

Which is why it makes it safe because you can defend the action with this argument.
You can deconstruct any argument by adding layers of WIFOM, but that is not helpful. Without a mention of scum quickhammering noone would have considered it, so it would be safe to do it. As soon as it is mentioned, it's on people's minds. So you can be scum and try a WIFOM thing, but you can't go in assuming town won't even consider it.

I simply disagree. In a world where scum isn’t given a safe-pass to do something that would be considered suicide, it absolutely never happens. The WIFOM presented was when you said “in fact it makes it less safe because you made this argument.” My response was merely demonstrative of the circular logic you presented. Yes, my argument was bad - so was yours. Scum would never do what Shraeye & Raerae did D1 unless expressly presented the opportunity by a conversation saying “boy, scum would never do that!”.

I’m not arguing that the hammer makes either of them scum - simply that by virtue of scum being given the window to do it, it’s a very scummy thing to have happened. D1’s rarely if ever end like that. Town doesn’t do it. Scum doesn’t do it. Yet it happened.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

faust

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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #428 on: October 17, 2019, 05:07:41 pm »

Why does Rae defend Shraeye there? Why are they "town being shot just because MiX is angry" all of a sudden? The only thing that changed since the previous skum read on Shraeye is that Shraeye came in and hammered MiX. When MiX says they are vengeful they are either trolling or they are truthful, so assuming truthful... this just should make Shraeye more skummy to Rae. Right?
So why does scum!raerae defend town!shraeye?

because the only other person that was listed in MiX's list was me, and I am town.

the point you make is essentially the only reason I can entertain them both being skum.
I don't understand. What list? What does this have to do with raerae?
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Swowl

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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #429 on: October 17, 2019, 06:08:01 pm »

Why does Rae defend Shraeye there? Why are they "town being shot just because MiX is angry" all of a sudden? The only thing that changed since the previous skum read on Shraeye is that Shraeye came in and hammered MiX. When MiX says they are vengeful they are either trolling or they are truthful, so assuming truthful... this just should make Shraeye more skummy to Rae. Right?
So why does scum!raerae defend town!shraeye?

because the only other person that was listed in MiX's list was me, and I am town.

the point you make is essentially the only reason I can entertain them both being skum.
I don't understand. What list? What does this have to do with raerae?

The list mix Gave when Rae defended Shraeye was choosing between me or Shraeye. They prob assumed mix was gonna veng Shraeye so they protected shraeye... with the worst case being mix goes me instead
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Town:  14 wins, 14 losses (1 MVP)
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3-Party: 4 wins, 1 loss

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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #430 on: October 17, 2019, 06:12:32 pm »

Which would work either way (so they argued no shot). That is my theory at least.
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raerae

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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #431 on: October 17, 2019, 06:21:23 pm »

Why does Rae defend Shraeye there? Why are they "town being shot just because MiX is angry" all of a sudden? The only thing that changed since the previous skum read on Shraeye is that Shraeye came in and hammered MiX. When MiX says they are vengeful they are either trolling or they are truthful, so assuming truthful... this just should make Shraeye more skummy to Rae. Right?
So why does scum!raerae defend town!shraeye?

because the only other person that was listed in MiX's list was me, and I am town.

the point you make is essentially the only reason I can entertain them both being skum.
I don't understand. What list? What does this have to do with raerae?

The list mix Gave when Rae defended Shraeye was choosing between me or Shraeye. They prob assumed mix was gonna veng Shraeye so they protected shraeye... with the worst case being mix goes me instead

Can you quote this? I remember being on the chopping block too and somehow Didds died instead of any of us. So how did I pick shraeye over you? And, again, if you're both town and I'm scum, why would I defend anybody? Why would the worst case mean you dying?
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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #432 on: October 17, 2019, 06:48:28 pm »

Why does Rae defend Shraeye there? Why are they "town being shot just because MiX is angry" all of a sudden? The only thing that changed since the previous skum read on Shraeye is that Shraeye came in and hammered MiX. When MiX says they are vengeful they are either trolling or they are truthful, so assuming truthful... this just should make Shraeye more skummy to Rae. Right?
So why does scum!raerae defend town!shraeye?

because the only other person that was listed in MiX's list was me, and I am town.

the point you make is essentially the only reason I can entertain them both being skum.
I don't understand. What list? What does this have to do with raerae?

The list mix Gave when Rae defended Shraeye was choosing between me or Shraeye. They prob assumed mix was gonna veng Shraeye so they protected shraeye... with the worst case being mix goes me instead

Can you quote this? I remember being on the chopping block too and somehow Didds died instead of any of us. So how did I pick shraeye over you? And, again, if you're both town and I'm scum, why would I defend anybody? Why would the worst case mean you dying?

When you responded the only two on the block were me and Shraeye. So you would defend people bc you didn’t think you were at risk.

The worst case was a figure of speech as in “you chose to defend Shraeye when the worst case at the time was me (which if you are skum, would still be good for you).”

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Town:  14 wins, 14 losses (1 MVP)
Skum: 7 wins, 7 losses (1 MVP)
3-Party: 4 wins, 1 loss

raerae

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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #433 on: October 17, 2019, 07:02:26 pm »

You and joth sure have a lot of interesting figures of speech.
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faust

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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #434 on: October 17, 2019, 07:28:43 pm »

The worst case was a figure of speech as in “you chose to defend Shraeye when the worst case at the time was me (which if you are skum, would still be good for you).”
Your reasoning kinda fails in that if shraeye/you are both town, then the actual worst case for scum!raerae is noone getting shot, which is exactly what she argued for...
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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #435 on: October 17, 2019, 08:55:34 pm »

People are acting like raerae took a lot of time to decide what her best course of action would be, but my point is exactly the opposite. Look at the time-stamps:

I AM A VENGEFUL TOWNY.

WHO SHOULD I KILL.

WHY SHOULDN'T IT BE SHRAEYE

HELP ME YOU BASTARDS

If you don't have any strong scum reads then the townie thing to do is nothing.

It took raerae all of three minutes to jump to "don't shoot anyone". I don't think she thought through all the possibilities. I think she saw an unexpected danger to her team's wincon and shot from the hip to try to mitigate it. MiX's all caps post there was a little unhinged. raerae could be forgiven for thinking he might pull the trigger any second. "Don't shoot anyone" was damage control. It was almost instinctive. She could have said "Yes, go ahead, do it, shoot shraeye". Maybe that would have worked. Maybe MiX would have been like "nah, you seem too eager. incinerate: raerae." But she went with the safe thing that she thought would look the towniest and be most likely to prevent her team from being vengekilled.
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faust

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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #436 on: October 17, 2019, 09:00:09 pm »

I would point out that you as well don't provide a satisfying answer to the question:
So why does scum!raerae defend town!shraeye?
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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #437 on: October 17, 2019, 10:25:44 pm »

I would point out that you as well don't provide a satisfying answer to the question:
So why does scum!raerae defend town!shraeye?

1. What makes you so sure shraeye is town?
2. I have given answers. Whether you find them satisfying is kinda your deal, dude.
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faust

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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #438 on: October 17, 2019, 10:32:56 pm »

Vote: joth
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faust

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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #439 on: October 17, 2019, 10:35:08 pm »

1. What makes you so sure shraeye is town?
This is missing the point. This isn't about me thinking shraeye must be town, this is about you being too chicken to go after shraeye when logically that is the only thing that makes sense given your stated opinions.
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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #440 on: October 17, 2019, 11:07:21 pm »

Yeah, joth, get real brave and go after me. After all, you can't back down from a dare like that...

Also, hey people!

Also also, yeah I did stuff at night, it was cool stuff.  But how is that relevant at all to somebody who didn't track me??  Is doing cool stuff scummy? Is NOT doing cool stuff scummy?
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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #441 on: October 17, 2019, 11:08:16 pm »

The worst case was a figure of speech as in “you chose to defend Shraeye when the worst case at the time was me (which if you are skum, would still be good for you).”
Your reasoning kinda fails in that if shraeye/you are both town, then the actual worst case for scum!raerae is noone getting shot, which is exactly what she argued for...
Isn't he arguing that raerae and Shraeye are both scum?
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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #442 on: October 17, 2019, 11:17:40 pm »

Also also also, the Faust/galz discussion regarding quickhammers and whether speaking about the before heightens or lessens scumminess is absurdly abstract.  It's really not a fruitful discussion

I did what I did and I said why I did it.  LaLight is correct that a yolo hammer is entirely in shraeyes wheelhouse. At the time, I saw both raerae and MiX as suspicious.  There was a general atmosphere of people being timid to put MiX to L-1, and it seemed entirely possible for scum to vote their partner there knowing that people will get nervous and back off.  Turns out MiX wasn't scum and that sucks.

If you want to be correct, you can believe me.  If you want to be wrong, you can be suspicious of me.  But hey peeps, that's your right to choose in action.
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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #443 on: October 17, 2019, 11:19:29 pm »

@EFHW, nope.

Why does Rae defend Shraeye there? Why are they "town being shot just because MiX is angry" all of a sudden? The only thing that changed since the previous skum read on Shraeye is that Shraeye came in and hammered MiX. When MiX says they are vengeful they are either trolling or they are truthful, so assuming truthful... this just should make Shraeye more skummy to Rae. Right?
So why does scum!raerae defend town!shraeye?

because the only other person that was listed in MiX's list was me, and I am town.

the point you make is essentially the only reason I can entertain them both being skum.
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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #444 on: October 17, 2019, 11:20:49 pm »

Vote: joth

Why joth over DatSwan when they're basically making the same argument?
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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #445 on: October 17, 2019, 11:25:21 pm »

I don't think raerae seems panicked in her posts at eod. There's a hint that she knows Shraeye is town, but that doesn't fit with protecting Shraeye narrative.  More likely she has a gut townread on Shraeye despite her campaign that he is scum.

I wish Shraeye had waited before hammering, but I don't think it was scummy.

unvote because MiX really did give people reasons to lynch him, so the wagon seems less scummy than MiX wagons usually do.
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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #446 on: October 17, 2019, 11:25:53 pm »

The worst case was a figure of speech as in “you chose to defend Shraeye when the worst case at the time was me (which if you are skum, would still be good for you).”
Your reasoning kinda fails in that if shraeye/you are both town, then the actual worst case for scum!raerae is noone getting shot, which is exactly what she argued for...
Isn't he arguing that raerae and Shraeye are both scum?
I am not saying they are both skum.
And Just the same as skum might agree with a day 1 plan that they know will never happen just to look towny, so i believe Rae made the argument for not veng killing assuming the likelihood of mix shooting was extremely high.
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Town:  14 wins, 14 losses (1 MVP)
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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #447 on: October 17, 2019, 11:30:52 pm »

But if Shraeye's town and raerae is scum, why would she be upset that Shraeye might get lynched?
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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #448 on: October 18, 2019, 01:38:52 am »

But if Shraeye's town and raerae is scum, why would she be upset that Shraeye might get lynched?

Maybe she just likes to play mafia with shraeye?

(Totally don't think so, think they're both scum)
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Re: RMM54: War of the Spark Mafia (DAY 2)
« Reply #449 on: October 18, 2019, 01:53:21 am »

Vote: joth

Why joth over DatSwan when they're basically making the same argument?

This.

Also, you prefer Swan. Also 2x, Rae, vote Swan with me.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20
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