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Author Topic: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!  (Read 844 times)

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RTT

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Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« on: August 02, 2019, 05:07:44 am »
+3

Hi I´m going to run a small design challenge.

The task is to design a Card or Landscape that works well together with the new promo Captain.

It could be a card costing 4$ or less but maybe someone can come up with something else too.

The synergy should not be broken like a Band of Missfits that costs 4$. Just something that makes the 2 cards together better than each on its own.

This will be running a week.

I am looking forward to what you can come up with.

Greetings from your Captain,
RTT
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GendoIkari

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2019, 09:11:45 am »
+1

One-shots in general...

Playing a Tragic Hero with it means getting to gain a treasure without trashing the Tragic Hero. And if you do it at the start of turn, it will draw you to 8.

Feast can gain a without losing Feast.

Death card is just a flat +.. no Ruins, no trashing. Heck, just buy 2 Captains, and play 1 each turn for every turn.


lol... I just now saw that this was in Fan Card, not general discussion... I thought it was asking for existing cards that had synergy with Captain. Oh well, I'll leave this here as to inspire ideas.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 09:12:46 am by GendoIkari »
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spineflu

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2019, 11:28:44 am »
+1


yeah sure i'll bite. Here's one that works with captain, workshop, etc as kind of an inverse cost reducer. It's not always gonna be worthwhile (when there's no cards that select by price on the board) but workshopping grand markets sounds pretty chill.

edit: fixed to remove some ambiguity

edit 2:
Revised to this:

which does essentially the same thing and also wrecks Band of Misfits a little bit, since when you play it, its cost is now $3.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 10:58:46 am by spineflu »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2019, 06:25:30 pm »
0


yeah sure i'll bite. Here's one that works with captain, workshop, etc as kind of an inverse cost reducer. It's not always gonna be worthwhile (when there's no cards that select by price on the board) but workshopping grand markets sounds pretty chill.

edit: fixed to remove some ambiguity

What exactly does "select" mean here? What does "selecting" a card costing $2 more actually do?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 06:27:38 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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pubby

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2019, 08:42:24 pm »
+1



I tried to make a card that's still interesting without Captain on the board. Pirate Cove gains Villagers like Acting Troupe, but it's reusable so long as you play it first in the turn. You can use this card to gain Gold (thematic, right?), and it's a good strategy to do so once you've stockpiled enough villagers.

With Captain however things become crazy. You can gain a $6 card without trashing, which is fantastic because Captain itself costs $6. (Hint: you'll pile the Captains extremely fast). You can also use it to gain your first Captain, as hitting $6 isn't trivial. But it's not broken - the card doesn't draw, and barely provides any coin. You'll need to Captain other cards in the kingdom - like Smithy and Nomad Camp - to play an engine.
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Gubump

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2019, 10:00:53 pm »
0



I tried to make a card that's still interesting without Captain on the board. Pirate Cove gains Villagers like Acting Troupe, but it's reusable so long as you play it first in the turn. You can use this card to gain Gold (thematic, right?), and it's a good strategy to do so once you've stockpiled enough villagers.

With Captain however things become crazy. You can gain a $6 card without trashing, which is fantastic because Captain itself costs $6. (Hint: you'll pile the Captains extremely fast). You can also use it to gain your first Captain, as hitting $6 isn't trivial. But it's not broken - the card doesn't draw, and barely provides any coin. You'll need to Captain other cards in the kingdom - like Smithy and Nomad Camp - to play an engine.

This seems way too easy to trigger to just cost . Also, is it costing up to or exactly ? Either way, you need to specify. (And it might be barely justifiable at if it's exactly.)
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pubby

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2019, 10:14:51 pm »
0

It's exactly 6, so typically just gold.
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spineflu

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2019, 09:59:53 am »
0


yeah sure i'll bite. Here's one that works with captain, workshop, etc as kind of an inverse cost reducer. It's not always gonna be worthwhile (when there's no cards that select by price on the board) but workshopping grand markets sounds pretty chill.

edit: fixed to remove some ambiguity

What exactly does "select" mean here? What does "selecting" a card costing $2 more actually do?

so take a peek at Workshop - "Gain a card costing up to $4" - this is selecting a card from the supply that costs up to $4, then gaining it. This lets you select a card costing up to $6 with it.

Or consider Smugglers. If you have this project, your opponent bought a province last turn, you can smuggle a province.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 10:05:24 am by spineflu »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2019, 10:14:13 am »
+3



Pretty simple idea. Bare cantrip trasher that junks you when you gain it to balance it at $4. Captain lets you play it without gaining the junk. Thematically, it doesn't fit with Captain but, well, that wasn't part of the challenge :P. The name works thematically in other ways because it trashes like Goat and it synergizes with Shepherd.
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Gubump

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2019, 11:45:44 am »
+2


yeah sure i'll bite. Here's one that works with captain, workshop, etc as kind of an inverse cost reducer. It's not always gonna be worthwhile (when there's no cards that select by price on the board) but workshopping grand markets sounds pretty chill.

edit: fixed to remove some ambiguity

What exactly does "select" mean here? What does "selecting" a card costing $2 more actually do?

so take a peek at Workshop - "Gain a card costing up to $4" - this is selecting a card from the supply that costs up to $4, then gaining it. This lets you select a card costing up to $6 with it.

Or consider Smugglers. If you have this project, your opponent bought a province last turn, you can smuggle a province.

I have a suggestion for a much simpler way to word this:

"When you play a card, you may first have all cards cost less (but not less than ) until you finishing playing the played card."

Same effect, but less confusing as it uses familiar concepts like cost reduction and "finishing playing" a card. Less wall-of-text-ish, too.
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Gubump

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2019, 11:48:12 am »
0



I tried to make a card that's still interesting without Captain on the board. Pirate Cove gains Villagers like Acting Troupe, but it's reusable so long as you play it first in the turn. You can use this card to gain Gold (thematic, right?), and it's a good strategy to do so once you've stockpiled enough villagers.

With Captain however things become crazy. You can gain a $6 card without trashing, which is fantastic because Captain itself costs $6. (Hint: you'll pile the Captains extremely fast). You can also use it to gain your first Captain, as hitting $6 isn't trivial. But it's not broken - the card doesn't draw, and barely provides any coin. You'll need to Captain other cards in the kingdom - like Smithy and Nomad Camp - to play an engine.

It needs to say exactly . See cards like Farmland, Upgrade, and Artificer; They have exact cost amounts in the cards they gain, but they don't just omit the "up to," they replace it with "exactly."
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scolapasta

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2019, 01:08:57 pm »
+1


yeah sure i'll bite. Here's one that works with captain, workshop, etc as kind of an inverse cost reducer. It's not always gonna be worthwhile (when there's no cards that select by price on the board) but workshopping grand markets sounds pretty chill.

edit: fixed to remove some ambiguity

What exactly does "select" mean here? What does "selecting" a card costing $2 more actually do?

so take a peek at Workshop - "Gain a card costing up to $4" - this is selecting a card from the supply that costs up to $4, then gaining it. This lets you select a card costing up to $6 with it.

Or consider Smugglers. If you have this project, your opponent bought a province last turn, you can smuggle a province.

I have a suggestion for a much simpler way to word this:

"When you play a card, you may first have all cards cost less (but not less than ) until you finishing playing the played card."

Same effect, but less confusing as it uses familiar concepts like cost reduction and "finishing playing" a card. Less wall-of-text-ish, too.

I don't think this would quite work (for the 2nd Captained card, at least). From the wiki for Royal Carriage: "With Duration cards, you call Royal Carriage after resolving the Duration card's on-play effects; you don't wait for the next turn." so you finish playing it before the start of your next turn.  :-\

How about (and this may also not work for the 2nd Captained Card - see below):

"During your Action phase, all cards in the Supply cost less (but not less than )."

I'm not sure of "the start of your next turn" occurs at the start of your Action phase or before your Action phase begins?  (And obviously, this wouldn't affect any treasure that have you select a card (e.g. Horn of Plenty) or Night cards).
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2019, 02:08:50 pm »
+1


yeah sure i'll bite. Here's one that works with captain, workshop, etc as kind of an inverse cost reducer. It's not always gonna be worthwhile (when there's no cards that select by price on the board) but workshopping grand markets sounds pretty chill.

edit: fixed to remove some ambiguity

What exactly does "select" mean here? What does "selecting" a card costing $2 more actually do?

so take a peek at Workshop - "Gain a card costing up to $4" - this is selecting a card from the supply that costs up to $4, then gaining it. This lets you select a card costing up to $6 with it.

Or consider Smugglers. If you have this project, your opponent bought a province last turn, you can smuggle a province.

I have a suggestion for a much simpler way to word this:

"When you play a card, you may first have all cards cost less (but not less than ) until you finishing playing the played card."

Same effect, but less confusing as it uses familiar concepts like cost reduction and "finishing playing" a card. Less wall-of-text-ish, too.

I don't think this would quite work (for the 2nd Captained card, at least). From the wiki for Royal Carriage: "With Duration cards, you call Royal Carriage after resolving the Duration card's on-play effects; you don't wait for the next turn." so you finish playing it before the start of your next turn.  :-\

How about (and this may also not work for the 2nd Captained Card - see below):

"During your Action phase, all cards in the Supply cost less (but not less than )."

I'm not sure of "the start of your next turn" occurs at the start of your Action phase or before your Action phase begins?  (And obviously, this wouldn't affect any treasure that have you select a card (e.g. Horn of Plenty) or Night cards).

"All cards in the Supply cost $2 less except when you buy them"?

Here's one that's less ambiguous but probably too clunky:

"All cards in the Supply cost $2 less, but you must pay $2 to buy a card."

Edit: I just thought of something that's not exactly the same but would be interesting:

"All cards in the Supply cost $2 less, and when you buy a card, take 2 Debt."
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 02:22:34 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Gubump

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2019, 02:46:38 pm »
0


yeah sure i'll bite. Here's one that works with captain, workshop, etc as kind of an inverse cost reducer. It's not always gonna be worthwhile (when there's no cards that select by price on the board) but workshopping grand markets sounds pretty chill.

edit: fixed to remove some ambiguity

What exactly does "select" mean here? What does "selecting" a card costing $2 more actually do?

so take a peek at Workshop - "Gain a card costing up to $4" - this is selecting a card from the supply that costs up to $4, then gaining it. This lets you select a card costing up to $6 with it.

Or consider Smugglers. If you have this project, your opponent bought a province last turn, you can smuggle a province.

I have a suggestion for a much simpler way to word this:

"When you play a card, you may first have all cards cost less (but not less than ) until you finishing playing the played card."

Same effect, but less confusing as it uses familiar concepts like cost reduction and "finishing playing" a card. Less wall-of-text-ish, too.

I don't think this would quite work (for the 2nd Captained card, at least). From the wiki for Royal Carriage: "With Duration cards, you call Royal Carriage after resolving the Duration card's on-play effects; you don't wait for the next turn." so you finish playing it before the start of your next turn.  :-\

How about (and this may also not work for the 2nd Captained Card - see below):

"During your Action phase, all cards in the Supply cost less (but not less than )."

I'm not sure of "the start of your next turn" occurs at the start of your Action phase or before your Action phase begins?  (And obviously, this wouldn't affect any treasure that have you select a card (e.g. Horn of Plenty) or Night cards).

I had a brain fart and forgot that Durations exist, somehow, even though we're talking about synergies with one. Oops. Your wording would work, though. "The start of your next turn" indeed occurs at the start of your Action phase (at least I'm 99% sure that's the case). Treasure and Night cards that care are rare enough that I don't think that edge case matters.

EDIT: Just realized another problem. This works very differently with TFB (makes many of them significantly worse), which is common enough to make that an issue. Although then you could just not buy Shipworker's Union, so it's probably fine.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 02:49:46 pm by Gubump »
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Kudasai

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2019, 03:42:53 pm »
+3

This could be getting into the realm of a broken combo, but it certainly has synergy with Captain. Thanks for the fun challenge RTT and congrats on the win!

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segura

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2019, 03:51:43 pm »
0


yeah sure i'll bite. Here's one that works with captain, workshop, etc as kind of an inverse cost reducer. It's not always gonna be worthwhile (when there's no cards that select by price on the board) but workshopping grand markets sounds pretty chill.

edit: fixed to remove some ambiguity

What exactly does "select" mean here? What does "selecting" a card costing $2 more actually do?

so take a peek at Workshop - "Gain a card costing up to $4" - this is selecting a card from the supply that costs up to $4, then gaining it. This lets you select a card costing up to $6 with it.

Or consider Smugglers. If you have this project, your opponent bought a province last turn, you can smuggle a province.
If that's how you intend the card to work it is broken: Bandit/Soothsayer gain Provinces and Treasure Map gains 4 Provinces.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2019, 04:50:45 pm »
0


yeah sure i'll bite. Here's one that works with captain, workshop, etc as kind of an inverse cost reducer. It's not always gonna be worthwhile (when there's no cards that select by price on the board) but workshopping grand markets sounds pretty chill.

edit: fixed to remove some ambiguity

What exactly does "select" mean here? What does "selecting" a card costing $2 more actually do?

so take a peek at Workshop - "Gain a card costing up to $4" - this is selecting a card from the supply that costs up to $4, then gaining it. This lets you select a card costing up to $6 with it.

Or consider Smugglers. If you have this project, your opponent bought a province last turn, you can smuggle a province.
If that's how you intend the card to work it is broken: Bandit/Soothsayer gain Provinces and Treasure Map gains 4 Provinces.

Pretty sure he only intends it to work in the situation of having a choice of which card to gain. But not clear how to word it that way since “select” is not used on official cards.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2019, 08:13:11 pm »
0

Ferryman
Action - $3
+1 Action
Trash this. Play any non-Duration Action card from the supply, leaving it there. This turn, that card costs $2 less (but not less than $0).
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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2019, 11:09:25 pm »
0

This could be getting into the realm of a broken combo, but it certainly has synergy with Captain. Thanks for the fun challenge RTT and congrats on the win!



I must be missing something here. Captaining this is just Smithy with a +Buy. How is that broken?
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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2019, 04:42:37 am »
+2

It is like a super-Wharf. All other 4s either draw less or lack the Buy.
But Captain is strong with terminal draw (in the second turn) anyway; it is like Haunted Woods and Duration draw is great for consistency.
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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2019, 07:14:18 am »
+1


yeah sure i'll bite. Here's one that works with captain, workshop, etc as kind of an inverse cost reducer. It's not always gonna be worthwhile (when there's no cards that select by price on the board) but workshopping grand markets sounds pretty chill.

edit: fixed to remove some ambiguity

What exactly does "select" mean here? What does "selecting" a card costing $2 more actually do?

so take a peek at Workshop - "Gain a card costing up to $4" - this is selecting a card from the supply that costs up to $4, then gaining it. This lets you select a card costing up to $6 with it.

Or consider Smugglers. If you have this project, your opponent bought a province last turn, you can smuggle a province.
If that's how you intend the card to work it is broken: Bandit/Soothsayer gain Provinces and Treasure Map gains 4 Provinces.

figured out a cleaner way to phrase the card (i'll change the actual image on monday when im not working off a phone):

During your Action phase, cards everywhere cost $2 less (to a minimum of $0).
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scolapasta

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2019, 11:25:51 am »
0


yeah sure i'll bite. Here's one that works with captain, workshop, etc as kind of an inverse cost reducer. It's not always gonna be worthwhile (when there's no cards that select by price on the board) but workshopping grand markets sounds pretty chill.

edit: fixed to remove some ambiguity

What exactly does "select" mean here? What does "selecting" a card costing $2 more actually do?

so take a peek at Workshop - "Gain a card costing up to $4" - this is selecting a card from the supply that costs up to $4, then gaining it. This lets you select a card costing up to $6 with it.

Or consider Smugglers. If you have this project, your opponent bought a province last turn, you can smuggle a province.


figured out a cleaner way to phrase the card (i'll change the actual image on monday when im not working off a phone):

During your Action phase, cards everywhere cost $2 less (to a minimum of $0).

Note that this way (unlike the action phase phrasing* I suggested above / earlier), would no longer work with your example of Smugglers.

[EDIT: this is incorrect. Smugglers will work just fine - it's TfB that will work differently than the original wording.]

* "During your Action phase, all cards in the Supply cost less (but not less than )."

But if you prefer this way, you can also drop the "everywhere", it's clearly implied and none of the official cards use it.

EDIT: Just realized another problem. This works very differently with TFB (makes many of them significantly worse), which is common enough to make that an issue. Although then you could just not buy Shipworker's Union, so it's probably fine.

Maybe it's my turn to miss something, but I'm missing how it would make many TfB significantly worse. For example, play remodel, trash an estate, gain a gold. (Estate from hand still costs $2, gold from supply costs $6).




« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 02:16:49 pm by scolapasta »
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Gubump

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2019, 12:43:46 pm »
+1

EDIT: Just realized another problem. This works very differently with TFB (makes many of them significantly worse), which is common enough to make that an issue. Although then you could just not buy Shipworker's Union, so it's probably fine.

Maybe it's my turn to miss something, but I'm missing how it would make many TfB significantly worse. For example, play remodel, trash an estate, gain a gold. (Estate from hand still costs $2, gold from supply costs $6).

I misread the suggestion and didn't realize it only affected Supply cards. Cost reduction makes cards like Apprentice and Recruiter worse because they'd get less of whatever they give you.
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Gubump

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2019, 12:45:04 pm »
0


yeah sure i'll bite. Here's one that works with captain, workshop, etc as kind of an inverse cost reducer. It's not always gonna be worthwhile (when there's no cards that select by price on the board) but workshopping grand markets sounds pretty chill.

edit: fixed to remove some ambiguity

What exactly does "select" mean here? What does "selecting" a card costing $2 more actually do?

so take a peek at Workshop - "Gain a card costing up to $4" - this is selecting a card from the supply that costs up to $4, then gaining it. This lets you select a card costing up to $6 with it.

Or consider Smugglers. If you have this project, your opponent bought a province last turn, you can smuggle a province.


figured out a cleaner way to phrase the card (i'll change the actual image on monday when im not working off a phone):

During your Action phase, cards everywhere cost $2 less (to a minimum of $0).

Note that this way (unlike the action phase phrasing* I suggested above / earlier), would no longer work with your example of Smugglers.

How would this not work with Smugglers? Provinces cost during your Action phase, when you play Smugglers, so Smugglers can gain Provinces.
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Kudasai

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Re: Design Challenge: Synergies with Captain!
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2019, 02:05:21 pm »
0

This could be getting into the realm of a broken combo, but it certainly has synergy with Captain. Thanks for the fun challenge RTT and congrats on the win!



I must be missing something here. Captaining this is just Smithy with a +Buy. How is that broken?

Maybe it's more accurate to say I think Charter Ship on its own might be broken. I guess it comes down to how much you think "+3 Cards and +1 Buy" on its own is worth. I think it's significantly better than just "+3 Cards". It provides draw and an extra buy, two crucial components to any engine. The extra Buy helps smooth out spikes in your economy. If you Smithy and draw $10 your kind of locked into getting a Province or wasting a lot of that coin. The extra Buy allows further building and efficiency.

The only two, official cards with this are Margrave and Tragic hero, both costing $5 and both having some hidden nerfs built it. Margrave helps your opponents cycle after the first play and the Attack usually means you'll be starting your hand with 3 cards. Tragic Hero can only be used as reliable draw if you can keep your hand sizes below 8 cards.

"+3 Cards and +1 Buy" is probably a risky design choice, but my hope is that the below the line stuff on Charter Ship makes it okay. The fact that Captain completely ignores this though makes it a very strong combo. If Charter Ship isn't already broken, I think Captain would make it so.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 05:02:36 pm by Kudasai »
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