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Author Topic: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)  (Read 26408 times)

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popsofctown

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2019, 02:03:35 pm »
+1

Captain reads a lot like a 7$
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markus

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2019, 02:56:36 pm »
0

Captain reads a lot like a 7$
That seems like a fairer price but it would make it swingier I suppose, because hitting $7 is even more difficult than $6.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2019, 03:13:40 pm »
+1

Captain reads a lot like a 7$
That seems like a fairer price but it would make it swingier I suppose, because hitting $7 is even more difficult than $6.

Wouldn't that argument apply to every cost card?
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markus

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2019, 05:17:22 pm »
+1

Captain reads a lot like a 7$
That seems like a fairer price but it would make it swingier I suppose, because hitting $7 is even more difficult than $6.

Wouldn't that argument apply to every cost card?
Forge and Expand are not cards you need too many of copies of (early on). Inheritance definitely has the problem that a player early on gets a significant lead. King's Court as well, if you connect it with an appropriate action. Bank is not a great card and Opulent Castle not available early on.
But Captain is likely to help you get another Captain and there's often a good reason to do so. Therefore, hitting $7 early snowballs more than with a $6 cost Captain.
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Jeebus

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2019, 05:22:10 pm »
+4

An early Forge, in the absence of other good trashing, can be game-deciding.

Commodore Chuckles

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2019, 06:41:07 pm »
0

if you use Captain on an Island, is it instantly gaining the Island from the Supply? or does "leave it there" supercede that and you just dump a card from your hand on your island mat?

Island works like any other one-shot.... "leave it there" prevents the card from moving, so the Island will not move to the Island mat, just like how Embargo will not move to the trash. You will still put a card from your hand onto your Island mat.

Specifically, the Lose Track rule causes this. "Leaving it there" makes it stay in the supply when it is played instead of moving to your play area like normal. And then when it gets to "Put this on to your Island mat", that instruction fails because that instruction expects Island to be in-play, but it isn't.

I'm kind of confused about this. The wording is ambiguous as to when the "leave it there" instruction actually applies. "Leave it there" obviously applies before you follow any of the card's instructions, because thing it's negating is the moving of the card into your play area. But does it continue to apply during the period when you're following the card's instructions? Because that's when the trashing of Death Cart etc actually happens. You could make the argument that it does, but based on the wording alone, I think you could also make the argument that it doesn't.
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Jeebus

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2019, 06:46:38 pm »
0

I'm kind of confused about this. The wording is ambiguous as to when the "leave it there" instruction actually applies. "Leave it there" obviously applies before you follow any of the card's instructions, because thing it's negating is the moving of the card into your play area. But does it continue to apply during the period when you're following the card's instructions? Because that's when the trashing of Death Cart etc actually happens. You could make the argument that it does, but based on the wording alone, I think you could also make the argument that it doesn't.

This also came up with Necromancer. It only means that you don't put it in play as part of playing it. When you're resolving it, everything works as normal. There is no ongoing effect of that clause. So you can play Workshop to gain a Workshop (which happens to be itself), or play Lurker to trash a Lurker (which happens to be itself).

(When you get to trashing Death Cart, that fails because the Death Cart isn't in play, where it's expected to be.)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 06:47:59 pm by Jeebus »
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crlundy

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2019, 02:17:08 am »
0

(Summary of Discord discussion below. If I understand correctly, the interaction was originally described by Seprix during Playtesting)

In the presence of ferry, band of misfits and any other cost reducer, Captain enables the following infinite loop:

(1) Buy ferry on Captain
(2) Play cost reducer
(3)
   (a) Play Captain as Band of Misfits
   (b) Play Band of Misfits as Captain
   (c) Goto a

While this does not do anything on the turn it is played, it allows you to play an arbitrary number of cards costing up to 4, at the beginning of next turn.

With Adventures tokens, the loop can do some serious work on the turn it's played as well.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2019, 02:38:47 am »
+1

if you use Captain on an Island, is it instantly gaining the Island from the Supply? or does "leave it there" supercede that and you just dump a card from your hand on your island mat?

Island works like any other one-shot.... "leave it there" prevents the card from moving, so the Island will not move to the Island mat, just like how Embargo will not move to the trash. You will still put a card from your hand onto your Island mat.

Specifically, the Lose Track rule causes this. "Leaving it there" makes it stay in the supply when it is played instead of moving to your play area like normal. And then when it gets to "Put this on to your Island mat", that instruction fails because that instruction expects Island to be in-play, but it isn't.

I'm kind of confused about this. The wording is ambiguous as to when the "leave it there" instruction actually applies. "Leave it there" obviously applies before you follow any of the card's instructions, because thing it's negating is the moving of the card into your play area. But does it continue to apply during the period when you're following the card's instructions? Because that's when the trashing of Death Cart etc actually happens. You could make the argument that it does, but based on the wording alone, I think you could also make the argument that it doesn't.

“Leaving it there” just means “don’t move it into play like you normally would when you play a card.” It does not directly have to do with not trashing a one-shot, or not moving Island to your Island Mat. However the Lose Track rule prevents one-shots from being trashed, or Island from moving to your Island Mat, because the card is in the supply, instead of in play instruction is expecting it to be.
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Donald X.

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2019, 12:06:32 pm »
+5

Donald (or testers), you mention in the secret history that you didn't want to do the "2$ less than this" thing on Captain, which seems very reasonable. Was "less than Duchy" taken in consideration?

Incidentally,  you hinted at an errata fixing the BoM/Ferry/Captain thing (in addition to using "leaving it there" technology on BoM I assume). Do you already have a fix in mind? I'm having trouble coming up with a simple one, apart from simply blocking BoM-Durations.
I did not consider "costing less than Duchy." That's weird but does the trick.

That's the fix; roughly "Play a cheaper non-Duration Action card from the Supply, leaving it there."

The point to non-duration isn't so much to get rid of the 3+ card combo, it's because the tracking is so poor on duration cards (similarly Necromancer says non-duration). I don't think I'd change the card just for that, but I already really want to change it to not shapeshift.
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scolapasta

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2019, 12:35:01 pm »
+4

Donald (or testers), you mention in the secret history that you didn't want to do the "2$ less than this" thing on Captain, which seems very reasonable. Was "less than Duchy" taken in consideration?
I did not consider "costing less than Duchy." That's weird but does the trick.

Except, of course, for the edge case (there's always an edge case!  ::))  of playing Storyteller (or BM), then Quarry, then Captain.
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Sparafucile

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2019, 09:39:22 pm »
0

Can captain play as a card from an empty supply pile?
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2019, 11:09:15 pm »
+2

Can captain play as a card from an empty supply pile?

No. You have to choose a card in the supply to play; an empty pile does not contain any cards to choose.
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chipperMDW

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2019, 01:43:43 am »
+3

Can captain play as a card from an empty supply pile?

Note that Captain is not played as anything.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2019, 04:52:03 pm »
0

By the way, whatever happened to this? http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19706.0
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Awaclus

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2019, 04:53:18 pm »
0

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popsofctown

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2019, 04:58:04 pm »
0

Captain reads a lot like a 7$
That seems like a fairer price but it would make it swingier I suppose, because hitting $7 is even more difficult than $6.

Wouldn't that argument apply to every cost card?
Forge and Expand are not cards you need too many of copies of (early on). Inheritance definitely has the problem that a player early on gets a significant lead. King's Court as well, if you connect it with an appropriate action. Bank is not a great card and Opulent Castle not available early on.
But Captain is likely to help you get another Captain and there's often a good reason to do so. Therefore, hitting $7 early snowballs more than with a $6 cost Captain.
This analysis rings hollow because 6$ is already one of the "swing" costs.  6$ on turn 3/4 is far from guaranteed.  Virtually all the sixes are designed not to create problems with unequal access on turns 3/4, earlier altars run out of stuff to trash faster, an early Hunting Grounds has arrived before the villages have and no one plays BM anymore, that night-duration-attack-gold thing misses the reshuffle more early and doesn't attack as hard until later.  Saying that it shouldn't cost 7 is kind of a concession that it shouldn't cost 6 and that it should cost five and then this is a really strong 5 this is maybe unprintable at any cost.  I was trying not to say that in a thread DXV is frequenting but man you brought me there.  Very very possible actually playing with it will prove me wrong, of course, but the card looks very nutty.
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elahrairah13

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2019, 05:20:33 pm »
+1

By the way, whatever happened to this? http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19706.0

in the English game it's Church
the name there is used in the German version (apparently)
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2019, 07:09:12 pm »
+1

Captain reads a lot like a 7$
That seems like a fairer price but it would make it swingier I suppose, because hitting $7 is even more difficult than $6.

Wouldn't that argument apply to every cost card?
Forge and Expand are not cards you need too many of copies of (early on). Inheritance definitely has the problem that a player early on gets a significant lead. King's Court as well, if you connect it with an appropriate action. Bank is not a great card and Opulent Castle not available early on.
But Captain is likely to help you get another Captain and there's often a good reason to do so. Therefore, hitting $7 early snowballs more than with a $6 cost Captain.
This analysis rings hollow because 6$ is already one of the "swing" costs.  6$ on turn 3/4 is far from guaranteed.  Virtually all the sixes are designed not to create problems with unequal access on turns 3/4, earlier altars run out of stuff to trash faster, an early Hunting Grounds has arrived before the villages have and no one plays BM anymore, that night-duration-attack-gold thing misses the reshuffle more early and doesn't attack as hard until later.  Saying that it shouldn't cost 7 is kind of a concession that it shouldn't cost 6 and that it should cost five and then this is a really strong 5 this is maybe unprintable at any cost.  I was trying not to say that in a thread DXV is frequenting but man you brought me there.  Very very possible actually playing with it will prove me wrong, of course, but the card looks very nutty.

I can think of two $6 cards that are pretty swingy: Goons, because the discard attack makes it harder for the other player to get to $6, and Grand Market, because the benefit makes it easier for you to get more.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 07:12:38 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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popsofctown

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2019, 07:38:42 pm »
+1

Captain reads a lot like a 7$
That seems like a fairer price but it would make it swingier I suppose, because hitting $7 is even more difficult than $6.

Wouldn't that argument apply to every cost card?
Forge and Expand are not cards you need too many of copies of (early on). Inheritance definitely has the problem that a player early on gets a significant lead. King's Court as well, if you connect it with an appropriate action. Bank is not a great card and Opulent Castle not available early on.
But Captain is likely to help you get another Captain and there's often a good reason to do so. Therefore, hitting $7 early snowballs more than with a $6 cost Captain.
This analysis rings hollow because 6$ is already one of the "swing" costs.  6$ on turn 3/4 is far from guaranteed.  Virtually all the sixes are designed not to create problems with unequal access on turns 3/4, earlier altars run out of stuff to trash faster, an early Hunting Grounds has arrived before the villages have and no one plays BM anymore, that night-duration-attack-gold thing misses the reshuffle more early and doesn't attack as hard until later.  Saying that it shouldn't cost 7 is kind of a concession that it shouldn't cost 6 and that it should cost five and then this is a really strong 5 this is maybe unprintable at any cost.  I was trying not to say that in a thread DXV is frequenting but man you brought me there.  Very very possible actually playing with it will prove me wrong, of course, but the card looks very nutty.

I can think of two $6 cards that are pretty swingy: Goons, because the discard attack makes it harder for the other player to get to $6, and Grand Market, because the benefit makes it easier for you to get more.
I agree.  Don't they feel awful? Especially Goons.
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Robz888

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2019, 07:42:19 pm »
0

Hot take: Captain does not strike me as super powerful. Church, on the other hand, seems very good, though it will not always be your go-to trasher if quicker options are available *and* the save effect isn't super necessary (often it will be, but not always).
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Robz888

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2019, 07:49:00 pm »
+16

COMBOS WITH SCOUT (RIP)

Captain: Oh, what could have been. Cruel world! Captain lets you play a Scout now, and then play a Scout next turn, and boom goes the dynamite, as they say. Since you're usually willing to pay up to $6 for your first Scout, this is just giving you some additional flexibility on something you were going to do anyway. Watch out for the Scout pile to run, though. That can really wreck your day.

Church: It's important here to make sure you set aside non-Green cards—your Actions, Treasures, etc.—and let your Green cards get discarded, go back into your shuffle, and get picked up by your Scouts. For instance, when you buy an early Duchy, Church might tempt you to make it skip the reshuffle, but then it will be like your 5th and 6th Scout were for nothing. Sad times.
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Sparafucile

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2019, 11:50:14 pm »
0



That seems like a fairer price but it would make it swingier I suppose, because hitting $7 is even m

I can think of two $6 cards that are pretty swingy: Goons, because the discard attack makes it harder for the other player to get to $6, and Grand Market, because the benefit makes it easier for you to get more.

It’s really hard to hit an early grand market when u can’t have coppers in play.    But goons is horrible.   I agree
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ConMan

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2019, 11:53:07 pm »
+2

COMBOS WITH SCOUT (RIP)
Oh, how I have missed these.
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markus

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2019, 02:20:40 am »
0

This analysis rings hollow because 6$ is already one of the "swing" costs.  6$ on turn 3/4 is far from guaranteed.
Having played a bit with Captain, I agree. It sucks when your opponent hits $6 early on. Then the Captain will help a lot to get more Captains. (Artisan for example can't gain itself and makes it rather harder to hit $6 again.)
Overlord has a debt cost to make it available with fewer coins to everyone, but still be reasonably expensive to not run very often.
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