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Chris is me

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Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« on: July 30, 2019, 08:43:43 am »
+2

With the new card list feature rolled out this morning, I figured it would be cool if we shared our Like, Dislike, and Ban lists and some reasons why we're putting what we do onto them. I know there was a similar thread for just ban lists but this gives us a chance to share the other two lists plus any changes of opinion we might have on them.

I haven't totally decided on my lists but here is what I was gonna open with:

Likes:
Bridge - I just love cost reduction and getting them sick gains bro

Cursed Village - Probably my favorite new card, enables all sorts of draw to X.

Dislikes:
Ghost Ship - It's fine sometimes but other times it just results in a momentum lock against second player more than any other discard attack. Would like to see it less.

Urchin - it's not that it's Too Good or whatever; it's just that when Mercenary trashing is essential it can produce the same degenerate state as Ghost Ship - you need to keep Merc and two junk when you discard down to 3 and then you don't do much that turn. Kind of bored with it.

Tax - It's just gross.

Bans:
Possession

Rebuild - It's either bad or it's good and I don't really wanna play with it in either case.

Swindler - Finally I can be rid of this demon card

Harvest - It's filler until I get mad at another card, but I'd rather it not get in the way of good cards.

Bureaucrat - See above; it's just in the way, eventually I'll be sick of another card.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 11:17:21 am by Chris is me »
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2019, 10:07:55 am »
0

Likes:

Vassal: base mvp
Scrying pool: general mvp
Butcher: no need to say why!
Page: for when your warrior hits opponent's warrior
Peasant: To teach stuff.

Dislikes

Sauna:...
Ambassador: takes time
Ghost ship: easily onesided
Treasure map: no idea
Night watchman: as well as with scouting party, dont know how to opent hem with travelers.
Baths: irrelevant
Annex: Same, unless its rebuild or last turn
Scouting party: aint good with it

Bans

Possession: no idea what the card does
Pooka: I am horrible with cursed gold.
Feodum: I am even worse with this one
Miser: I dont get it
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2019, 10:30:42 am »
+1

What an awesome feature! Thanks to the team for making this possible. I think my favorite part of these lists might be hearing players' explanations for why they like/dislike/ban certain cards. Should make for some great conversation. Having said that, here I go (for now)

Like: I don't have anything on this list because I enjoy the variety and challenge of giving (almost) every card a chance to shine. If I did have cards on this list, I don't know how I could possibly limit it to 5. My instinct is to put Worker's Village just so there's always a source of +actions and +buys, but I prefer the randomness of it all. I might also think about putting Black Market on here, but having it show up more often than usual would probably wear it out and lead to increase swinginess.


Dislikes: These are the cards I could do without, but I wouldn't say that I "never" want to see them again. They belong in Dominion from time to time and I'm glad that they get their occasional chance to shine.

Familiar- It just leads to sloggy and uncomfortable games. You have to dedicate your first 2 turns to hitting $3P, and if you don't hit it on turns 4 and 5, you're probably hosed. Before you know it, you're most likely sitting there with 7 coppers, 3 estates, a potion, a couple silvers, and a bunch of curses.

Pooka- I don't like Cursed Gold. That's all there is to it. I wish it wasn't in the game. I do like Pooka, though. That's what makes it a dislike rather than a ban.

Urchin- I find that it's often a race to get Mercenary and then a money-ish situation after that. I also feel like it's usually the best thing to open urchin/urchin and I'm just not all that excited about that.

Swindler- It's the swinginess. It's a fun card, but one that can absolutely determine the outcome of the game on turn 3. A perfect example of a card I would like to see half as much as the others.

Smugglers- I kind of stink with this card. It's probably all in my head, but it feels like my opponent is always smuggling Golds and Goons and Grand Markets with this thing while I'm either gaining silvers or gaining nothing because my opponent bought an event or a province. However, "I'm bad at playing with it" doesn't seem like a good reason to ban a card outright.


Ban List: A very short list, but these are the cards I'm 100% sure I would be cool with never seeing again. The fact that there are only 4 card shaped things here should speak to how well I believe Dominion is balanced.

Possession- Built in already, but this card does not belong in the game for me.

Knights- The only kingdom card. I've gone into more detail on this before, but Knights take away the balance of fairness. If you have 3 Knights and I have 7, I trash all your Knights and then I'm trashing everything else of value in your deck and there is literally nothing you can do about it. Ghost Ship, Mountebank, and Cultist are nasty, but there's always the opportunity to return the favor for your opponent. Knights can and will take away that opportunity. The only true no-brainer on my personal ban list.

Tax- This is here because of the setup clause. Everything about that is gross. I've never played a game with Tax and been glad that it's there.

Keep- I mean, maybe if it was like 2VP for each treasure, but 5?!?! Holy cow it just turns Dominion into a completely different game, and one that is much less fun than the normal one. Counting silvers and buying coppers (shudders) is just a chore I could do without.

That's what I've got! I expect to see a lot Rebuild, Ambassador, Cultist, etc. on other list, but I don't really mind them as much as others do. Curious to see how my list differs/compares to the majority.

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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2019, 10:50:07 am »
+1

I haven't yet thought about filling up my like/dislike lists.

Bans:
Advisor: I just intensely dislike this card, its too spammable for an interaction card and too often involves making a lot choices that don't end up mattering and just taunt the other player.

Catapult: Causes way too many 2$ hands early in the game. Easy to pick up discard to 3 without a decent upside like militia's to pay for it.

Swindler: Out! OUT FOUL DEMONSPAWN!

Smugglers: grumble grumble.

Pooka: I feel bad about this and might move it to just dislike. I actually really like Pooka games when there are cards that can trash the curses. I just run into games where there's no other trashing too often and I hate it.

Defiled Shrine: Annoying cluttery setup, don't love the feel of the play where one turn its a bad play to take the points but then the next turn just because people are building naturally its worth 4vp more and the other player gets a huge cheap lead.

Tax: Annoying cluttery setup. While I admire the attempt to rectify FPA thats sorta present, it more often feels like you just get even less than the standard 7$ on open and that feels sad and I hate it.

Keep: CBA to track that nonsense.

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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2019, 10:58:24 am »
0

Dislike:

Lurker: annoying political card, you buy it just because the opponent did so you both don't use it. Has some 3-pile shenanigans potential but it usually just sucks.
Governor: monopolizes the game too much and is luck-based. Not banning because I suppose I have to get better at using it, but I hate it.
Urchin: can't remember a single card that's so reliant on getting the right stuff early, and isn't that fun to play with anyway (too much handsize reducing)
Keep: I dislike counting cards and how political this card also is, you buy bad cards just so the opponent has less of them.
Defiled Shrine: also a very political card that often punishes players for having good hands.

Ban:

Sauna: often it's bad, but when it's good, merely touching any of the other 9 piles is game-throwing. I've played enough Sauna games for a lifetime, they are all identical.

I'll add more if I come up with them. Also I've never played with Posession before so I wanna see it first before I decide if I hate it.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 11:00:34 am by DDL »
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Chris is me

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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2019, 11:14:46 am »
0

Ban:

Sauna: often it's bad, but when it's good, merely touching any of the other 9 piles is game-throwing. I've played enough Sauna games for a lifetime, they are all identical.

Much like IGG and Rebuild before it, this is one of those cards that (1) is a lot more powerful when both players go for it and (2) grows less essential the higher level of play you get.

I've lost count of the number of games where I get my one Sauna to trash and I watch the opponent choke on racing to get to Avanto while I do more productive things with my time.

If there's no other draw or villages, it can be centralizing, true.
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2019, 11:19:23 am »
0

Bans:
Mountebank, Witch: I just hate games with tons of junk and little to no trashing.

Cultist: for the above reason, and also too one-sided and boring gameplay.

Rebuild: extremely boring; buying anything but rebuild or green is usually a mistake.

Keep: too annoying to keep track of, but maybe I'm just bad. On the banlist anyway.

Dislikes:
Goons: Too boring of a payload card. Basically does everything you could want a payload card to do; whoever gets their Goons(es?) up and running faster wins.

Black Market: way too swingy, have played more than one no-trashing game where the other person got a curser and I didn't.

Tournament: also way too swingy and boring. First person to connect and get Followers/Steed/Princess or whatever basically wins.

Hamlet: Too much clicking.

Page: way less interesting than Peasant and also potential for stuff like getting your Warrior trashed by the other person's Warrior.

Wall: This card is fine, I just don't like playing with it.

Likes:
I haven't really decided on a lot here yet.

Necromancer: I really like the concept of this card, and haven't played a lot with it.

Fortress: ya gotta have at least one village for a kingdom to be fun imo, plus all the fun tfb combos.



« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 11:21:00 am by Iridium »
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scolapasta

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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2019, 12:34:23 pm »
0

I looked at the site and the FAQ (quickly) and couldn't find the answer to this:

How are these lists used? I do see "Respect Liked / Disliked / Banned cards" as an option when you create a table, but how exactly will it work?

Banned seems pretty obvious, but I'm unclear on the other two. Does it just increase / decrease probabilities of those cards showing up?
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2019, 01:28:37 pm »
0

Yes it says it decreases the probability of the card being chosen.

But on my first 3 plays after this my two disliked cards both turned up once.

They were
Sauna as it seems to be the one way (althoughif only one person goes for it it might be OK
Feodum as I can't see itr being useful. *although I did have a game with masterpiece and other players did not understand the cards so I emptied the silver pile before buying any :(
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scolapasta

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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2019, 02:43:48 pm »
+1

I looked at the site and the FAQ (quickly) and couldn't find the answer to this:

How are these lists used? I do see "Respect Liked / Disliked / Banned cards" as an option when you create a table, but how exactly will it work?

Banned seems pretty obvious, but I'm unclear on the other two. Does it just increase / decrease probabilities of those cards showing up?

Here is the link to the announcement:
http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=3552.msg15575#msg15575


Quote
Every player gets to make three small lists that will influence the kingdoms you play.

You can make a banned list, a liked list and a disliked list. Cards on these lists will increase or decrease the likelihood a card will appear in your kingdom. Banned cards will be gone completely (0%), while liked cards have 200% chance and disliked cards 50%. If several players have the same cards on their lists, these percentages will be multiplied with each other. On every list you can put a maximum of 5 cards and 3 landscapes (Events, Landmarks and/or Projects). You don't need a subscription to these cards to put them on your lists.

If you play a regular automatched game, the banned list and the disliked list will be respected, but the liked list ignored. If you play a practice game or a game with a bot, all lists will be respected. If you create your own table, you can manually select which lists you want to be respected. An automatched game that doesn't use expansions will ignore all lists. The rationale here is that we want to increase the fun for players as much as possible, while still not allowing/forcing them to game the system too much.

When this feature was released, we removed the global ban on Possession but put it on everyone's personal list. New accounts will start with empty lists.
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pubby

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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2019, 04:01:00 pm »
0

Like: Black Market, Vault
Dislike: Scrying Pool
Ban: Familiar, Cultist, PStone
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2019, 07:25:01 pm »
+1

Ban:
Possession - Duh.
Rebuild - Duh.
Urchin - OP, irritating to play with.
Page - Luck-based, makes the game boring.
Familiar - You have to get it, and then it has no more impact when the Curses are gone.
Tax - Makes the beginning painful.
Keep - Creates a tedious, never-ending tug-of-war situation.

Dislike:
Governor - Too centralizing and I suck at using it.
Knights - Fighting against your constantly crumbling deck makes you feel like Sisyphus rolling his boulder up a hill over and over. And you're screwed if you lose the split.
Smugglers - Few feelings in Dominion are worse than an opponent leeching a Grand Market off of you.
Sea Hag - Makes things too painful.
Militia - Just not fun.

Like:
Not sure at the moment. I like diversity, which points to adding Black Market and nothing else.
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2019, 07:45:49 pm »
+2

I have no issue with Possession.  I only plan on banning Tax because, well, eurgh.  Other than that, I'm not putting anything on any list.
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2019, 08:28:25 pm »
0

I have no issue with Possession.  I only plan on banning Tax because, well, eurgh.  Other than that, I'm not putting anything on any list.

Iím like this, except Rebuild is on my ban list instead of tax
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2019, 12:03:01 pm »
0

This is my listing right now all though I am thinking of downgrading some of the band to dislike

Banned List
Lurker
Catapult
Sauna
Ambassador
Haunted Woods
Donate

Disliked List
Chapel
Remake
Rebuild
Black Market
Governor

My Reasoning:
Lurker and Ambassador are game warping cards very rarely in a good way, if one player takes one, the other players need to follow suit - in most matches.

Catapult and Sauna are more often than their fair share tilt cards.  Catapult degrades quickly and isnt much fun to fight against.  There are matches where the lone Sauna player will be too slow or can be caught with a depleted deck and exploited but in most matches this is the dominant strategy.

Haunted Woods - I like this card, but the Haunted Woods lock isnt worth playing with this card all that often.

Donate - I have abused this card way too often.  Donate/Robin Hood among the worse.  (Possibly should just be dislike - but for now a rest is warranted)

Chapel, Remake, and Rebuild  - In most games these cards are super under costed.

Black Market - I think this is a weak card, but in paper I ban it as it is too slow.  Online it can be fun, but seems a feel bad for my opponents when they desperately cling to a multi-action or multi-buy game instead of occasionally enjoying the single action/buy game.

Governor- A somewhat interesting card, but it is a promo on the super strong side.  Im kind of tired of the choice to quick race or Gold/Rebuild-to-6xProvinces.

I am considering Tax as it is often unfair to the starting player.


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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2019, 12:53:00 pm »
0

Finally get to ban Black Market. You can't convince me that this isn't the most swingy card in the game. Maybe it's high-skill in that it's a good card to beat bad players with, but when both players are decent, it's just "who get's the missing engine pieces, trashers or junkers - and who doesn't? let's roll the die".

I also banned Tax, since it's annoying. On my dislike list I just put all the Doom cards. Tired of the hex swinginess.

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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2019, 02:40:10 pm »
+3

Finally get to ban Black Market. You can't convince me that this isn't the most swingy card in the game. Maybe it's high-skill in that it's a good card to beat bad players with, but when both players are decent, it's just "who get's the missing engine pieces, trashers or junkers - and who doesn't? let's roll the die".
People get matched against people of similar skill levels; the skill multiplier isn't the story of good players beating bad players. Black Market has a skill multiplier of 1.23, which is crazy high. It feels high-luck; it's actually high-skill. As further evidence, it's Stef's favorite card. Smithy meanwhile is high-luck and no-one complains about it. That's just how it goes. (Swindler is an example of a card that looks high-luck and is).

But, it's great that now you can ban the card if you don't like it.

The hexes have a skill multiplier of 1.00; they don't have an effect on our ability to predict the winner from skill level. Isn't that interesting.
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2019, 03:11:18 pm »
+1

Just played 10 games with someone and they all had black market. I'm guessing both of us had market as "liked" and that's why it appeared 100%. Either way, it got pretty dull playing with that card every game, though I usually like it.

Anyway, I'm deleting my "liked" list because of it.
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2019, 04:07:08 pm »
0

Just played 10 games with someone and they all had black market. I'm guessing both of us had market as "liked" and that's why it appeared 100%. Either way, it got pretty dull playing with that card every game, though I usually like it.

Anyway, I'm deleting my "liked" list because of it.

That sounds extremely unlikely. The probabilities are supposed to be multiplicative so you would only have a 4x chance of seeing it each game, which doesnít yield more than a minuscule chance of 10 in a row. This suggests that either something is going wrong with the feature or Black Market was actually set as a required card in those games.
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2019, 04:20:59 pm »
0

I'm always going to believe statistics over subjective opinions.

I can't think of a dominion card I'd dislike except maybe Rebuild.
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2019, 04:59:19 pm »
0

Ban:
Possession
Urchin
Cultist
Ambassador
Familiar
----
Annex, Tax and Keep

Dislike:
Governor
Advisor
Knights
Sauna
Page
----
 Windfall, Save and City gate (lot of mistakes and "undos" with those events in play)

Like:
Upgrade
Peddler
Highway
Workers village
Grand market or Groundskeeper...
----
Dominate, Training, Capitalism
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 05:04:00 pm by Adler »
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Chris is me

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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2019, 05:29:09 pm »
+1

Just played 10 games with someone and they all had black market. I'm guessing both of us had market as "liked" and that's why it appeared 100%. Either way, it got pretty dull playing with that card every game, though I usually like it.

Anyway, I'm deleting my "liked" list because of it.

Ranked ladder games ignore the like list.

The top of the log shows exactly what factors influenced the odds of the kingdom randomizer, and by how much they were influenced.
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2019, 05:57:25 pm »
0

Ranked ladder games ignore the like list.

The top of the log shows exactly what factors influenced the odds of the kingdom randomizer, and by how much they were influenced.
Huh maybe the guy just forced it into every kingdom? Dunno, I was matching for rated games.
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2019, 06:27:14 pm »
+3

Iím surprised that any of the lists would be respected for ranked games.
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Re: Share Your Like / Dislike / Ban Lists
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2019, 07:04:14 pm »
+1

People get matched against people of similar skill levels; the skill multiplier isn't the story of good players beating bad players. Black Market has a skill multiplier of 1.23, which is crazy high. It feels high-luck; it's actually high-skill. As further evidence, it's Stef's favorite card. Smithy meanwhile is high-luck and no-one complains about it. That's just how it goes. (Swindler is an example of a card that looks high-luck and is).

You can choose the level of the players you want to be matched with, right? I have +/- 10, so I'm usually matched with people 8-10 levels lower than me. That usually means I'm a better player. Still, I have very rarely seen an opponent choose the wrong cards from the BM deck. If a junker is missing, they buy the junker. If a village is missing, they buy the village. It's not that complicated. Maybe with very high-level play, the opportunity to construct a crazy engine via BM makes it a high-skilled card in that sense, but in most games where one of the players has my skill level (i.e. me), it's how I described. That's been my experience, which is all the evidence I have. Whether it's Stef's favorite card doesn't really say much, sorry.

I also really wonder what exactly it means that Smithy is high-luck? Seems odd. Maybe my definition of high-luck and whatever the skill multiplier signifies is different.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 07:08:25 pm by Jeebus »
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