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Author Topic: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet  (Read 696 times)

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Ingix

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Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« on: July 04, 2019, 05:25:10 pm »
0

If Throne Room plays Band of Misfits becoming an Amulet (or any other eligabe Duration-Action), will the Throne Room stay out for the next turn?

I assume the answer for Overlord instead of Band of Misfits would be the same.
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crj

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2019, 06:14:49 pm »
+2

I can't see why it wouldn't.
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Donald X.

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2019, 02:23:26 am »
0

If Throne Room plays Band of Misfits becoming an Amulet (or any other eligabe Duration-Action), will the Throne Room stay out for the next turn?

I assume the answer for Overlord instead of Band of Misfits would be the same.
The easy answer is that, the second time Throne plays the card, it's a Duration, so of course Throne stays out. The harder answer is, the first time Throne plays it, BoM was played as a Duration card, so Throne should stay out.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2019, 09:27:57 am »
+1

If Throne Room plays Band of Misfits becoming an Amulet (or any other eligabe Duration-Action), will the Throne Room stay out for the next turn?

I assume the answer for Overlord instead of Band of Misfits would be the same.
The easy answer is that, the second time Throne plays the card, it's a Duration, so of course Throne stays out. The harder answer is, the first time Throne plays it, BoM was played as a Duration card, so Throne should stay out.

The harder answer doesn't sound accurate... the first time Throne plays it, it only played a BoM, it didn't play a Duration card. BoM was then played as a Duration, but it was played by BoM's "play a card" instructions, not by Throne Room's "play a card" instructions. The second time Throne Room plays the card is the only time Throne Room plays a Duration.
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Donald X.

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2019, 11:38:45 am »
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The harder answer doesn't sound accurate... the first time Throne plays it, it only played a BoM, it didn't play a Duration card. BoM was then played as a Duration, but it was played by BoM's "play a card" instructions, not by Throne Room's "play a card" instructions. The second time Throne Room plays the card is the only time Throne Room plays a Duration.
The text on BoM acts like it's a duration right when you play it.

But as usual, I continue to think, I should errata BoM / Overlord / Inheritance to work like Necromancer.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2019, 12:06:34 pm »
+1

The harder answer doesn't sound accurate... the first time Throne plays it, it only played a BoM, it didn't play a Duration card. BoM was then played as a Duration, but it was played by BoM's "play a card" instructions, not by Throne Room's "play a card" instructions. The second time Throne Room plays the card is the only time Throne Room plays a Duration.
The text on BoM acts like it's a duration right when you play it.

But as usual, I continue to think, I should errata BoM / Overlord / Inheritance to work like Necromancer.

Didnít you change this ruling in the discussion of how adventures tokens would interact with BoM? The latest rule that I know is that BoM first is played normally, just like playing any other action, and then you follow the instructions on BoM which tell you to pay it again as another action. The simplest case where it matters is that paying BoM as whatever and then playing Conspirator, that Conspirator is now your third action played this turn.

Link: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13115.msg487471#msg487471
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 12:08:56 pm by GendoIkari »
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Donald X.

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2019, 02:42:45 pm »
+1

The harder answer doesn't sound accurate... the first time Throne plays it, it only played a BoM, it didn't play a Duration card. BoM was then played as a Duration, but it was played by BoM's "play a card" instructions, not by Throne Room's "play a card" instructions. The second time Throne Room plays the card is the only time Throne Room plays a Duration.
The text on BoM acts like it's a duration right when you play it.

But as usual, I continue to think, I should errata BoM / Overlord / Inheritance to work like Necromancer.

Didnít you change this ruling in the discussion of how adventures tokens would interact with BoM? The latest rule that I know is that BoM first is played normally, just like playing any other action, and then you follow the instructions on BoM which tell you to pay it again as another action. The simplest case where it matters is that paying BoM as whatever and then playing Conspirator, that Conspirator is now your third action played this turn.

Link: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13115.msg487471#msg487471
I believe you.

As I continue to think I'll end up errata-ing the cards, it's hard to put lots of effort into rulings for situations that don't matter.
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Jeebus

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2019, 05:37:13 pm »
0

Yes, GendoIkari is correct.

Play TR + BoM(Duration) - BoM plays itself as Duration, then TR plays the Duration directly. But the rule for TR+Duration is that if TR causes the Duration to be played one more time this turn, TR stays in play. (This is the reason Royal Carriage stays in play when re-playing a Duration.)

Play TR + BoM(Feast) / Bom(Duration) - BoM plays itself as Feast, then TR plays BoM from trash, then BoM plays itself as Duration. TR never played a Duration, so doesn't stay in play. This also applies to King's Court, since KC will always play BoM, not a Duration.

As far as I remember, all this works correctly in Dominion Online - of course also including the Conspirator interaction.

crj

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2019, 08:34:05 pm »
0

As I continue to think I'll end up errata-ing the cards [...]
Out of interest, are you also considering errata-ing Trader to use the "exchange" mechanic?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2019, 08:42:30 pm »
0

As I continue to think I'll end up errata-ing the cards [...]
Out of interest, are you also considering errata-ing Trader to use the "exchange" mechanic?

That would require you to also gain the card instead of would-gain; which could have other unintended side effects.
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Donald X.

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2019, 10:31:39 pm »
0

As I continue to think I'll end up errata-ing the cards [...]
Out of interest, are you also considering errata-ing Trader to use the "exchange" mechanic?
No, not even tentative plans except for the three shapeshifting cards (and no plan to change Lantern, which technically also causes shapeshifting).
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werothegreat

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2019, 10:53:07 pm »
+1

I like Band of Misfits literally turning into the card, rules weirdness be damned.

(I also don't really want to buy Dark Ages 3rd Edition for one changed card)
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Ingix

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2019, 01:39:48 am »
+1

Play TR + BoM(Duration) - BoM plays itself as Duration, then TR plays the Duration directly. But the rule for TR+Duration is that if TR causes the Duration to be played one more time this turn, TR stays in play. (This is the reason Royal Carriage stays in play when re-playing a Duration.)

Play TR + BoM(Feast) / Bom(Duration) - BoM plays itself as Feast, then TR plays BoM from trash, then BoM plays itself as Duration. TR never played a Duration, so doesn't stay in play. This also applies to King's Court, since KC will always play BoM, not a Duration.

As far as I remember, all this works correctly in Dominion Online - of course also including the Conspirator interaction.

The first interaction has the Throne Room stay out in Dominion Online, which is the reason I asked the question. It's not like that is a totally unreasonable; a card, that is now a Duration, was played twice by the Throne Room. But literally, as you said, it played a non-Duration card named Band of Misfits the first time.

The second example is more clear cut, because another simple reason that Throne Room/King's Court does not stay out is that the card it played is not in play, so can't be discarded anyway.

I tried the following setup in Dominion Online: Player A plays Ghost which sets aside an Amulet. Player B plays Enchantress. Player A gets one enchanted Amulet (+1 Card/+1 Action effect) and then a normal one. By the letter of the rule the Ghost should stay out another turn, which it does in Dominion Online, even though there is nothing to 'remember' about an additional effect next turn.
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crj

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2019, 09:40:27 am »
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(and no plan to change Lantern, which technically also causes shapeshifting).
Really? I'd have grouped Lantern in with Enchantress and the Adventures tokens, not with the shape-shifters, conceptually.
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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2019, 09:43:51 am »
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As I continue to think I'll end up errata-ing the cards [...]
Out of interest, are you also considering errata-ing Trader to use the "exchange" mechanic?
No, not even tentative plans except for the three shapeshifting cards (and no plan to change Lantern, which technically also causes shapeshifting).

Wait, how does Lantern cause shapeshifting? Doesn't it do the same kind of thing as Envy and Enchantress (i.e., 'when you play the card do this instead of what the card says')? Is that shapeshifting?
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Ingix

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2019, 10:39:33 am »
+2

Wait, how does Lantern cause shapeshifting? Doesn't it do the same kind of thing as Envy and Enchantress (i.e., 'when you play the card do this instead of what the card says')? Is that shapeshifting?

I think Donald is talking about the ruling how an inherited Border Guard works if the player has the Lantern. Initially the idea was that since the card is still named Estate, Lantern would not apply. Then, after some argument (in some thread here I can't find now), it was changed based on the argument that the Lantern would change (shapeshift) the Border Guard under the Estate token, which would then, in turn, affect the ability that the Estates get.
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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2019, 12:05:39 pm »
0

I like Band of Misfits literally turning into the card, rules weirdness be damned.

(I also don't really want to buy Dark Ages 3rd Edition for one changed card)
You mean to scan it? I can try to scan it for you.

The rules problems are just too bad. Again there is a situation in which you can play a card and not know what it does. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18598.0
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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2019, 12:07:54 pm »
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The first interaction has the Throne Room stay out in Dominion Online, which is the reason I asked the question. It's not like that is a totally unreasonable; a card, that is now a Duration, was played twice by the Throne Room. But literally, as you said, it played a non-Duration card named Band of Misfits the first time.

And it has to be this way, or Royal Carriage would never stay in play when it re-plays a Duration (which is explictly stated in the rulebook).

Quote
The second example is more clear cut, because another simple reason that Throne Room/King's Court does not stay out is that the card it played is not in play, so can't be discarded anyway.

You're right, the explanation I gave was valid when TR+Durations worked differently. It used to be that TR would stay in play as long as the Duration had unresolved effects (even if the Duration was no longer in play). But since the rules change that TR simply follows the Duration, that explanation is unneeded and confusing*.

*because it implies that if a normal (non-BoM) Duration played by TR somehow ended up in trash while being resolved, TR would stay in play. I don't think this is possible with current cards though.

Quote
I tried the following setup in Dominion Online: Player A plays Ghost which sets aside an Amulet. Player B plays Enchantress. Player A gets one enchanted Amulet (+1 Card/+1 Action effect) and then a normal one. By the letter of the rule the Ghost should stay out another turn, which it does in Dominion Online, even though there is nothing to 'remember' about an additional effect next turn.

Yes, but this is more related to scenarios like playing TR+Gear without setting aside cards both times, etc. Archive, Cargo Ship, Gear, Haven, Outpost, Research, Secret Cave and Tactician can all be played by TR but only have the future ability once, but the TR still stays out.

Donald X.

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2019, 12:12:47 pm »
0

Wait, how does Lantern cause shapeshifting? Doesn't it do the same kind of thing as Envy and Enchantress (i.e., 'when you play the card do this instead of what the card says')? Is that shapeshifting?
As worded it changes what Border Guard does. Enchantress replaces what the player gets for playing the card; if you Scepter the Enchantress'd card you get the regular effect, the card didn't change. Envy we can think of either way. "Shapeshifting" is just a term I use to think of the cards that turn into other cards, it has no relevance.
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Jeebus

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2019, 12:27:17 pm »
0

Wait, how does Lantern cause shapeshifting? Doesn't it do the same kind of thing as Envy and Enchantress (i.e., 'when you play the card do this instead of what the card says')? Is that shapeshifting?

I think Donald is talking about the ruling how an inherited Border Guard works if the player has the Lantern. Initially the idea was that since the card is still named Estate, Lantern would not apply. Then, after some argument (in some thread here I can't find now), it was changed based on the argument that the Lantern would change (shapeshift) the Border Guard under the Estate token, which would then, in turn, affect the ability that the Estates get.

Correct, it's this thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19198.msg777133

Enchantress is the only card that interrupts doing something right before it happens to do something else instead - except for Trader and Possession, which interrupt a gaining instruction. Based on the wording on Envious and Coppersmith and the ruling about Lantern, it must be that Envious "shapeshifts" Silvers/Golds and Coppersmith "shapeshifts" Coppers. Not that it matters with current cards. (Of course in addition there's Capitalism that changes types, and several cards that change costs.)

GendoIkari

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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2019, 01:42:31 pm »
0

I like Band of Misfits literally turning into the card, rules weirdness be damned.

(I also don't really want to buy Dark Ages 3rd Edition for one changed card)
You mean to scan it? I can try to scan it for you.

The rules problems are just too bad. Again there is a situation in which you can play a card and not know what it does. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18598.0

Did I miss something; is there an announced planned third edition? Or is this just hypothetical talk?
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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2019, 03:16:48 pm »
0

I like Band of Misfits literally turning into the card, rules weirdness be damned.

(I also don't really want to buy Dark Ages 3rd Edition for one changed card)
You mean to scan it? I can try to scan it for you.

The rules problems are just too bad. Again there is a situation in which you can play a card and not know what it does. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18598.0

It's less for the wiki and more for when I play with them.  It'd be one thing to still have 1e Moneylender and tell other players "oh this should say 'you may'", whereas with BoM it'd be "actually this card works a lot differently than what it actually says".  Isn't that sort of thing why you were reluctant to do card changes in the first place?
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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2019, 04:31:41 pm »
+1

I like Band of Misfits literally turning into the card, rules weirdness be damned.

(I also don't really want to buy Dark Ages 3rd Edition for one changed card)

I like the idea of a card that literally changes when you play the physical card.  You were holding a BOM, it hits the table, bam, it's a Conspirator, it goes to your discard, whoa, it's BOM again!

Someone with good close-up magic skills could probably do this.
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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2019, 07:16:06 pm »
0

The rules problems are just too bad. Again there is a situation in which you can play a card and not know what it does. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18598.0

Also that particular rules problem is 1) intensely rare, requiring Inheritance, Mandarin, Crown (or Capitalism), Herald, a gainer, and either Masquerade or Ambassador and 2) while yes, very complicated, it still seems pretty clear what should happen.  You can look over at your opponent's Estate token and go "oh okay I'll do that".  You Throne your Estate, play it as you Inherited, wacky shenanigans and give it to your opponent, it now belongs to them, so when you replay the card, you play it as their card.
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Re: Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2019, 12:06:53 pm »
0

Did I miss something; is there an announced planned third edition? Or is this just hypothetical talk?
There isn't even a "2nd edition" except for Dominion and Intrigue; in places like these forums we have been calling the new-layout versions 2nd editions to distinguish them.

Jay decided to fix the layout of all expansions personally, due to subtle things and sometimes invisible things. It all started with the $3 on Courtier being wrong as reported by Ben King. Things will be more consistent now, and there will still lots of tiny things to fix; a go-to example, the black line below the banner of some Seaside cards e.g. Pearl Diver. He has already done Intrigue, Seaside, and Prosperity; I don't have a date for Intrigue or Seaside (since Prosperity is what people have asked about) but would guess it's mid-July, same as for Prosperity (and of course Intrigue will have a new cover).

So, when he's doing Dark Ages, well, it's an opportunity to fix Band of Misfits.
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