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[A Drowned Kernel]

Hardly anyone but Swan.

And the idea that it’s exactly us three must seem a bit silly to you.

What’s disingenuous is the lack of concern people seem to be having about Swan’s alignment.

I can’t help but read his posts and feel hesitation due to many assumptions he is making that I don’t think a baddie would make in his spot.

He seems to be working with half of the information, just like town would be doing.

I mean all three of you can't all be his partners because that's too many scum. But the argument that swan can't be scum because no one protesting his lynch or looking elsewhere doesn't hold water

[Robz888]

I'm sort of fine with lynching DS and would be willing to provide the vote to do it, but that doesn't look necessary, I guess.

Are you fine with it because you think he's scum or because you're ready for the day to end and want information?

I'm ready for the day to end, and also think the case on him is decent-ish enough. I could really see him as scum, and not as scum. Sorry to be wishy washy!

[EFHW]

Why have no other wagons come up?

You, debate and Eddie have been pushing "anyone but swan" for awhile now, so this seems pretty disingenuous

This does not feel like an accurate description.

[EFHW]

Hardly anyone but Swan.

And the idea that it’s exactly us three must seem a bit silly to you.

What’s disingenuous is the lack of concern people seem to be having about Swan’s alignment.

I can’t help but read his posts and feel hesitation due to many assumptions he is making that I don’t think a baddie would make in his spot.

He seems to be working with half of the information, just like town would be doing.

I mean all three of you can't all be his partners because that's too many scum. But the argument that swan can't be scum because no one protesting his lynch or looking elsewhere doesn't hold water

It doesn't give you pause at all? I never said he can't be scum for that reason.  I never said he can't be scum.  Just I personally don't think he is. 

[A Drowned Kernel]

Hardly anyone but Swan.

And the idea that it’s exactly us three must seem a bit silly to you.

What’s disingenuous is the lack of concern people seem to be having about Swan’s alignment.

I can’t help but read his posts and feel hesitation due to many assumptions he is making that I don’t think a baddie would make in his spot.

He seems to be working with half of the information, just like town would be doing.

I mean all three of you can't all be his partners because that's too many scum. But the argument that swan can't be scum because no one protesting his lynch or looking elsewhere doesn't hold water

It doesn't give you pause at all? I never said he can't be scum for that reason.  I never said he can't be scum.  Just I personally don't think he is.

"Can't" is a strong word but you've definitely been arguing that we should lynch elsewhere, as have debate and e, and you're arguing that the fact that there aren't people looking elsewhere might be evidence that swan is town, and that fact is demonstrably false, even from town!you'd perspective, since debate and Eddie have been doing exactly that

[jotheonah]

I'm sort of fine with lynching DS and would be willing to provide the vote to do it, but that doesn't look necessary, I guess.

Are you fine with it because you think he's scum or because you're ready for the day to end and want information?

I'm ready for the day to end, and also think the case on him is decent-ish enough. I could really see him as scum, and not as scum. Sorry to be wishy washy!

I'd be mad but … it me. I'm like in exactly the same spot.

[Debatepro]

Why have no other wagons come up?

You, debate and Eddie have been pushing "anyone but swan" for awhile now, so this seems pretty disingenuous

This does not feel like an accurate description.

I agree this is not accurate. I am skeptical because 4 of 5 people who voted for pubby, mix, and Glooble are all voting DS and the 5th (Robz) said he would.  It seems everyone voting for DS agrees that DS challenging the ICs status is scummy. This means you exclude ICs from the the pool of 5. We’re left with three and I think at least one of them is scum. From the perspective of any of the 3 remaining players, if they are Town, at least  one of the other two is likely scum. But no one is saying anything, they are doing Poe, vca, or anything, just following the ICs.

I think ADK’s arg that scum try to be off wagon is fair, but I’ve never played in a game where they were ALL off wagon. The fact that ADK as a supposed Town player isn’t questioning or looking in the pool of players at all should raise eyebrows.

Anyone remember this?

The whole idea around framing someone as scum is a bunch of WIFOM that doesn't actually contribute a ton to catching scum in my opinion.

Every flip does give us information to find scum, but the standard immediate jumping on an easy wagon is just scummy.

More people should vote Awaclus

I have a gut townread on awaclus

Maybe everyone who joined the DS vote after the IC, should be given more scrutiny.

(Phone & beers)

[EFHW]

Hardly anyone but Swan.

And the idea that it’s exactly us three must seem a bit silly to you.

What’s disingenuous is the lack of concern people seem to be having about Swan’s alignment.

I can’t help but read his posts and feel hesitation due to many assumptions he is making that I don’t think a baddie would make in his spot.

He seems to be working with half of the information, just like town would be doing.

I mean all three of you can't all be his partners because that's too many scum. But the argument that swan can't be scum because no one protesting his lynch or looking elsewhere doesn't hold water

It doesn't give you pause at all? I never said he can't be scum for that reason.  I never said he can't be scum.  Just I personally don't think he is.

"Can't" is a strong word but you've definitely been arguing that we should lynch elsewhere, as have debate and e, and you're arguing that the fact that there aren't people looking elsewhere might be evidence that swan is town, and that fact is demonstrably false, even from town!you'd perspective, since debate and Eddie have been doing exactly that

But they haven't been doing that. That's why I pointed out their not voting. Did you at least consider the possibility that the lack of opposition could be meaningful, even if it wasn't enough to change your voting preference?

[EFHW]

I think you meant Eddie, not e, has been not in favor of the lynch. I didn't see him looking elsewhere, though, until I mentioned his not voting.

[EFHW]

vote: ADK

[A Drowned Kernel]

Why have no other wagons come up?

You, debate and Eddie have been pushing "anyone but swan" for awhile now, so this seems pretty disingenuous

This does not feel like an accurate description.

I agree this is not accurate. I am skeptical because 4 of 5 people who voted for pubby, mix, and Glooble are all voting DS and the 5th (Robz) said he would.  It seems everyone voting for DS agrees that DS challenging the ICs status is scummy. This means you exclude ICs from the the pool of 5. We’re left with three and I think at least one of them is scum. From the perspective of any of the 3 remaining players, if they are Town, at least  one of the other two is likely scum. But no one is saying anything, they are doing Poe, vca, or anything, just following the ICs.

I think ADK’s arg that scum try to be off wagon is fair, but I’ve never played in a game where they were ALL off wagon. The fact that ADK as a supposed Town player isn’t questioning or looking in the pool of players at all should raise eyebrows.

Anyone remember this?

The whole idea around framing someone as scum is a bunch of WIFOM that doesn't actually contribute a ton to catching scum in my opinion.

Every flip does give us information to find scum, but the standard immediate jumping on an easy wagon is just scummy.

More people should vote Awaclus

I have a gut townread on awaclus

Maybe everyone who joined the DS vote after the IC, should be given more scrutiny.

(Phone & beers)

I'm by no means townreading robz and awaclus, but them being scum is not exclusive of swan being scum. Awaclus joined the wagon after it had built quite a bit and robz only expressed approval after an IC stated intent to hammer

[A Drowned Kernel]

I think you meant Eddie, not e, has been not in favor of the lynch. I didn't see him looking elsewhere, though, until I mentioned his not voting.

I do mean Eddie, and these both happened before you brought up his not voting:

At the end of the day Swan, you’re going to have to do a better job of explaining why a scum team that is so far ahead would basically sacrifice one of their own in exchange for a tiny chance of outing the JK and a mislynch they could probably have secured anyway.

Otherwise I accept Jospeh’s behavior as weird, but I can’t buy it as scummy.

Sure.
Wake up Day 3 with 3vs8 (11 total). skum here would be considering two options:

1) Can they quick win this?
   - Not really like in this set up after they do not get a kill last night.

Let me stop you right there. Scum doesn't know their kill didn't go through until day start. So this whole thing you laid out works only as something Joseph by himself decided to do without consulting his partners.

#TownSlip

I dunno, man, I wanna trust Swowl here a lot more than other people at the moment.

E and Awaclus?

Probably e.

Or Robz.

Or EFHW.

Probably e.

He hasn't been pushing other cases hard but he's definitely been pushing "not swan"

[A Drowned Kernel]

Did you at least consider the possibility that the lack of opposition could be meaningful, even if it wasn't enough to change your voting preference?

The issue is that I'm not the seeing the "lack of opposition" that you're talking about

[Uncleeurope]

I concur that I would prefer if Swan didn't die.

[Swowl]

I concur that I would prefer if Swan didn't die.

awww

[Uncleeurope]

I concur that I would prefer if Swan didn't die.

awww

<3


(I swear if you are evil I will curse you with a thousand emus)

[Swowl]

Vote Count 1.3 – Just before Duel choice Day 1

Glooble (1): e
Robz888 (3): pubby, DatSwan, EFHW
jotheonah (1): Robz888
MiX (3): Awaclus, A Drowned Kernel, Joseph2302
pubby (4): MiX, mcmcsalot, jotheonah, Glooble
Not Voting (2): Debatepro, Uncleeurope

- So, there are votes on 5 players. If we are acting under the assumption that Joseph/Joth are IC, then we can say that 4/5 of them are conf!town.
- The other wagon is Robz. Consisting of Pubby, Swan, EFHW.

Then we go duel with ADK vs E!
People claim the following votes for the duel:
Yes:
e
Joseph
Robz
Joth

No:
pubby
mcmcsalot
Glooble
ADK
EFHW
MiX
Debate
Swan

No Vote:
Eddie

No Info:
Awaclus


Here are the VCs after the Duel was turned down:

Vote Count 1.7

Glooble (1): jotheonah
Robz888 (4): e, EFHW, Debatepro, pubby
Debatepro (3): A Drowned Kernel, DatSwan, MiX
jotheonah (1): Glooble
MiX (1): Awaclus
pubby (3): mcmcsalot, Robz888, Joseph2302
Not Voting (1): Uncleeurope

- So we have a wagon on Robz, Debate and Pubby. Shortly after we arrive here.


Vote Count 1.8

Robz888 (5): e, EFHW, Debatepro, pubby, Glooble
Debatepro (3): A Drowned Kernel, DatSwan, jotheonah
pubby (5): mcmcsalot, Robz888, Joseph2302, Awaclus, MiX
Not Voting (1): Uncleeurope

- Now we have consolidated the wagons down to Robz and Pubby, with debate in third.


Vote Count 1.9

Robz888 (5): e, EFHW, Debatepro, pubby, Glooble
Debatepro (2): DatSwan, jotheonah
pubby (6): mcmcsalot, Robz888, Joseph2302, Awaclus, MiX, A Drowned Kernel
Not Voting (1): Uncleeurope

- OK so now Debate is kind of off the table. Assuming that Joth and Joseph are ICs... pains me but I will play along.. that leaves:
[E, EFHW, Debate, Swan, Eddie] off of Pubby
[MCMC, Robz, Awaclus, ADK] on Pubby.



Final Vote Count Day 1

e (2): Uncleeurope, DatSwan
Robz888 (4): Debatepro, pubby, Glooble, jotheonah
pubby (: mcmcsalot, Robz888, Joseph2302, Awaclus, A Drowned Kernel, MiX, EFHW, e

Off Pubby = [Uncle, Swan, Debate]
On Pubby = [MCMC, Robz, Awaclus, ADK, EFHW, E]

Fast forward to today:
Thinks Swan is skum [MCMC, Robz, Awaclus, ADK, E]
Doesn't think Swan is Skum [Uncle, Debate, EFHW]


I am not even gonna make a case out of this. Everything I try to type up is dependent upon the knowledge I have of myself. Just consider it free work done for you later.

[Swowl]

I concur that I would prefer if Swan didn't die.

awww

<3


(I swear if you are evil I will curse you with a thousand emus)

ditto.

[Swowl]

ADK and E were put on the block. The duel did not happen.

Joth and Glooble were put on the block. We know Glooble is Town, and the accepted stance is that Joth is Town. The duel did happen.

ADK and Joseph were put on the block. The accepted stance is that Joseph is Town.

I will gladly take the odds on this in saying that one of ADK/E is skum.

Especially when considering E claimed to voting yes in the first duel because "they had such a strong feeling they would find skum in ADK" but now they are on me over ADK.

[EFHW]

Did you at least consider the possibility that the lack of opposition could be meaningful, even if it wasn't enough to change your voting preference?

The issue is that I'm not the seeing the "lack of opposition" that you're talking about

This is weird,  because I thought I was in a conversation with Robz. But by lack of opposition I meant lack of opposing wagons. That was the question I asked, followed by the question about why the off wagon people weren't voting anywhere else. Robz assumed my agenda was to clear DatSwan.  I just think it's important to notice and think about. joth noticed and decided it meant DatSwan was scum. That doesn't seem obvious to me.  I realize most of the DatSwan voters have probably decided I am probably his partner, but I'm still going to say what I think.

[EFHW]

I have mixed up ADK and Robz's avatars like a dozen times this game. They aren't even all that similar!

[EFHW]

I've been very clear all along that I meant lack of votes/wagons other than for DatSwan. Somehow that keeps getting turned into me saying no one is against the wagon, which is obviously false.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Did you at least consider the possibility that the lack of opposition could be meaningful, even if it wasn't enough to change your voting preference?

The issue is that I'm not the seeing the "lack of opposition" that you're talking about

This is weird,  because I thought I was in a conversation with Robz. But by lack of opposition I meant lack of opposing wagons. That was the question I asked, followed by the question about why the off wagon people weren't voting anywhere else. Robz assumed my agenda was to clear DatSwan.  I just think it's important to notice and think about. joth noticed and decided it meant DatSwan was scum. That doesn't seem obvious to me.  I realize most of the DatSwan voters have probably decided I am probably his partner, but I'm still going to say what I think.

It's true that there haven't been alternate wagons until now, but that's not the only measure of opposition. Several people are and have been arguing against the lynch

Ppe 1

[A Drowned Kernel]

I've been very clear all along that I meant lack of votes/wagons other than for DatSwan. Somehow that keeps getting turned into me saying no one is against the wagon, which is obviously false.

To be fair it seems like it's just you and me having this conversation. I apologize if I've misrepresented your point but to me the amount of people arguing against swan's lynch is enough to counter the "where are his partners" argument

[Debatepro]

I've been very clear all along that I meant lack of votes/wagons other than for DatSwan. Somehow that keeps getting turned into me saying no one is against the wagon, which is obviously false.

To be fair it seems like it's just you and me having this conversation. I apologize if I've misrepresented your point but to me the amount of people arguing against swan's lynch is enough to counter the "where are his partners" argument

So that I understand what is implied here, your position is that efhw, eddie, and debatepro are pushing an alternative to DS and pushing that alternative is a sign of who his partners could be?