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[mcmcsalot]

Yaaay, I'm in a mafia game again!

[A Drowned Kernel]

So wait, are you against always dueling now? And why on earth would you assume we would always win on town vs. scum?

I think the PR part makes it better (because the downside's really small IMO) and I assumed that because otherwise it would just be same probability as random lynching.

That makes zero sense

if we were ever going to lynch scum D1 then surely in 6 days we can determine which of 2 players is scum right?

Might be inconsistent, but...eh. Basically, if we're assuming we can do better than random lynching in a given D1, then we can do better than a 50/50 in a town vs scum duel, right? 100% scum lynch might be overkill, but I'm not sure what percentage's best.

That's assuming that it does end up being scum vs. town; if it's town vs. town and it passes, then scum gets a free mislynch without having to do anything

[mcmcsalot]

Okay so as usual I don't find MiX scummy at all for his brash and un-thought out accept all duels plan. I think it was either not very thought out or purposefully not very thought out, either way not alignment indicative.

I don't think a rule of accepting duels or not accepting duels is good at all. I strongly think players should decide on their own based on the likelihood of the players up for the duel containing scum. Also we should way approving duels gives us a power which tips the scales towards dueling. With day one reads being weak I think that is also a factor that points towards accepting the duel but if I am strongly town reading both players going into the duel i'm still not accepting it. I think that should be how we treat duels, Its like a forced read check and wagon lock so we dont get to end of day having and qucklynching.

Town read on Joth for the math, people overestimate scum doing that for towncred.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Okay so as usual I don't find MiX scummy at all for his brash and un-thought out accept all duels plan. I think it was either not very thought out or purposefully not very thought out, either way not alignment indicative.

I don't think a rule of accepting duels or not accepting duels is good at all. I strongly think players should decide on their own based on the likelihood of the players up for the duel containing scum. Also we should way approving duels gives us a power which tips the scales towards dueling. With day one reads being weak I think that is also a factor that points towards accepting the duel but if I am strongly town reading both players going into the duel i'm still not accepting it. I think that should be how we treat duels, Its like a forced read check and wagon lock so we dont get to end of day having and qucklynching.

Town read on Joth for the math, people overestimate scum doing that for towncred.

That's basically a summation of the so-called "anti-duel" position

[mcmcsalot]

Vote: Pubby

So is it a bad idea to vote yes on the duel d1?

I saw robz on TV a few weeks ago. At least, I think it was him.

vote: robz

I'm only going to vote yes on the duel today if it involves one of the fools wanting to duel so badly.

Three posts spaced very evenly throughout the day where decent conversations have been had inbetween and yet he doesn't participate in the conversation at all.
Poses a question instead of giving his own opinion (could be trying to start conversations but as a hard stance had already been taken by someone the pro town approach is to disect that stance not ask the group)
Then really doesn't take his question anywhere and posts a throwaway comment as well as a useless vote.
Then takes a hard stance on duel voting but gives a very jokey not serious reason.

Overall very anti town and engaged while still trying.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay so as usual I don't find MiX scummy at all for his brash and un-thought out accept all duels plan. I think it was either not very thought out or purposefully not very thought out, either way not alignment indicative.

I don't think a rule of accepting duels or not accepting duels is good at all. I strongly think players should decide on their own based on the likelihood of the players up for the duel containing scum. Also we should way approving duels gives us a power which tips the scales towards dueling. With day one reads being weak I think that is also a factor that points towards accepting the duel but if I am strongly town reading both players going into the duel i'm still not accepting it. I think that should be how we treat duels, Its like a forced read check and wagon lock so we dont get to end of day having and qucklynching.

Town read on Joth for the math, people overestimate scum doing that for towncred.

That's basically a summation of the so-called "anti-duel" position

What is Joth's math or my post?

I am neither pro or anti duel. Joth math points out that there is a 40% chance duels include scum, I think that is relatively counterbalanced by the fact that dueling provides a 76%(10/13) or 84%(11/13) of giving town a one shot pr. My opinion is that these two stats mean dueling is a bit coinflippy if we don't apply reads. If we actively chose to vote based on our reads duels can provide a solid benefit.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Okay so as usual I don't find MiX scummy at all for his brash and un-thought out accept all duels plan. I think it was either not very thought out or purposefully not very thought out, either way not alignment indicative.

I don't think a rule of accepting duels or not accepting duels is good at all. I strongly think players should decide on their own based on the likelihood of the players up for the duel containing scum. Also we should way approving duels gives us a power which tips the scales towards dueling. With day one reads being weak I think that is also a factor that points towards accepting the duel but if I am strongly town reading both players going into the duel i'm still not accepting it. I think that should be how we treat duels, Its like a forced read check and wagon lock so we dont get to end of day having and qucklynching.

Town read on Joth for the math, people overestimate scum doing that for towncred.

That's basically a summation of the so-called "anti-duel" position

What is Joth's math or my post?

I am neither pro or anti duel. Joth math points out that there is a 40% chance duels include scum, I think that is relatively counterbalanced by the fact that dueling provides a 76%(10/13) or 84%(11/13) of giving town a one shot pr. My opinion is that these two stats mean dueling is a bit coinflippy if we don't apply reads. If we actively chose to vote based on our reads duels can provide a solid benefit.

My point is that no one is saying we should never duel and the position that you're describing is the same one that me and joth are arguing for

[EFHW]

Turns out by waiting I now agree with MiX in his anti-duel sentiments. I have been considering just voting no on all duels (unless a super strong scum read is one of the contenders). I was concerned it was unsporting though, to join a duel based game and then not support any duels. I think it is very likely the game will drag on duel days. And we'll have so much less opportunity to form reads. Finally, 1-shot abilities very often come to nothing, especially when you don't get to pick which night to use them.

I don't think it's scummy to want duels, but it is scummy to vote someone for not wanting a duel.

At the beginning of the game, I think scum will want duels. As POE gets tighter, then they will want them less and less.

[Awaclus]

Assuming that silverspawn has picked somewhat reasonable PRs, it should be sometimes a good idea to duel and sometimes a bad idea, depending on who the randomly picked players turn out to be. If it was always correct to duel, why on earth would it be optional?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Turns out by waiting I now agree with MiX in his anti-duel sentiments. I have been considering just voting no on all duels (unless a super strong scum read is one of the contenders). I was concerned it was unsporting though, to join a duel based game and then not support any duels. I think it is very likely the game will drag on duel days. And we'll have so much less opportunity to form reads. Finally, 1-shot abilities very often come to nothing, especially when you don't get to pick which night to use them.

I don't think it's scummy to want duels, but it is scummy to vote someone for not wanting a duel.

At the beginning of the game, I think scum will want duels. As POE gets tighter, then they will want them less and less.

I think it's safe to assume scum will just vote yes on duels they're not in and no ok duels they are in

[MiX]

Assuming that silverspawn has picked somewhat reasonable PRs, it should be sometimes a good idea to duel and sometimes a bad idea, depending on who the randomly picked players turn out to be. If it was always correct to duel, why on earth would it be optional?

Because whoever's being dueled is public before votes, which makes how good the duel is vary.

mcmc is town or just buddying me but probably just town. Saying everything I'm thinking, 'nuff said.

[mcmcsalot]

Turns out by waiting I now agree with MiX in his anti-duel sentiments. I have been considering just voting no on all duels (unless a super strong scum read is one of the contenders). I was concerned it was unsporting though, to join a duel based game and then not support any duels. I think it is very likely the game will drag on duel days. And we'll have so much less opportunity to form reads. Finally, 1-shot abilities very often come to nothing, especially when you don't get to pick which night to use them.

I don't think it's scummy to want duels, but it is scummy to vote someone for not wanting a duel.

At the beginning of the game, I think scum will want duels. As POE gets tighter, then they will want them less and less.

I think it's safe to assume scum will just vote yes on duels they're not in and no ok duels they are in

I disagree and strongly discourage public speculation of how scum will vote prior to votes being made.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Fair enough

[mcmcsalot]

Turns out by waiting I now agree with MiX in his anti-duel sentiments. I have been considering just voting no on all duels (unless a super strong scum read is one of the contenders). I was concerned it was unsporting though, to join a duel based game and then not support any duels. I think it is very likely the game will drag on duel days. And we'll have so much less opportunity to form reads. Finally, 1-shot abilities very often come to nothing, especially when you don't get to pick which night to use them.

I don't think it's scummy to want duels, but it is scummy to vote someone for not wanting a duel.

At the beginning of the game, I think scum will want duels. As POE gets tighter, then they will want them less and less.

Why do you think the game will drag when there is a duel. Unless things have radically changed in my recent absence things can't drag anymore than they already do. I think duels will result in much quicker lynches then non duel days. I agree reads are sort of limited by duels but they allow more forced interactions so a little moot.

[EFHW]

We recently had a gladiators game where that happened.  Also it's plurality lynch, which  often reduces incentive to vote or post and makes it less likely a day will end early.

[EFHW]

Assuming that silverspawn has picked somewhat reasonable PRs, it should be sometimes a good idea to duel and sometimes a bad idea, depending on who the randomly picked players turn out to be. If it was always correct to duel, why on earth would it be optional?

Because scum and town have different agendas, which means the outcome of the vote contains information about the two duelers. This is another counter argument to my always vote no plan, since my doing that would dilute the information that we could infer from the result.

[EFHW]

silver, will we learn the for and against  breakdown of the votes, or just the result?

[mcmcsalot]

silver, will we learn the for and against  breakdown of the votes, or just the result?

I think the answer is obviously just the result because it says we vote privately in our qt. I think you know that and asking is scummy.

[Robz888]

Wait we have a MIX and an OIX in this game? That's sort of odd.

[Robz888]

Also for the newbie there are two pairs of brothers in this game. Me and mcmc are brothers, and Jotheonah and Glooble are brothers (twins, even!).

[jotheonah]

OTOH, the nice thing about the duel is it limits us to two possible wagons that scum had no role in choosing which is attractive.

They do have a role in choosing them, though, since they're a three person voting block when we're voting on the duel itself

That's true. Which I suppose is a good argument for an "always duel" rule although it would be pretty unenforceable even if we did.

I don't think I'm following your line of thought there

If town all agrees to vote for the duel, then scum can't derail it if one of them is in it. If town all does their own thing, scum can probably vote down a duel that includes them.

[EFHW]

silver, will we learn the for and against  breakdown of the votes, or just the result?

I think the answer is obviously just the result because it says we vote privately in our qt. I think you know that and asking is scummy.

It doesn't seem that obvious to me.

[Swowl]

Hey everyone -

vote: new guy
Welcome to the forum

vote: Mcmc
Good to see you again man

vote: robz
Obv!skum

[silverspawn]

silver, will we learn the for and against  breakdown of the votes, or just the result?

You will only learn whether or not the duel happens.

[Swowl]

Day 1 Duel: It is 100%, almost unarguably, wrong to go for the duel on Day 1.
I am not saying the duel concept is bad. For every negative there is a potential positive. Examples:
a) Items - Town could get a PR, or skum could get the fake claim.

b) % chance vs control vs plurality - it would seem the % chance of having a skum selected day 1 is fairly similar to randomly choosing a player to lynch day 1. The difference is that it does take some control away from skum in the duel setting. Without the duel we need 8 to lynch, with the duel it is just majority. However, on day one we assume we will lynch town... that does not change just because there is a duel. So it gives skum less control over keeping one of their own alive, but only if one of their own is selected... if it is TownvTown... it is all bad news.


---This is the important one---
c) Information - When we isolate the field to 2 players the info we have to look back on is EXTREMELY LIMITED. If we roll SkumVTown and go to lynch it could prove useful. However, that cannot be an expectation. If the mod selects player A and player B to duel and we have to choose between them... we can still just say no and have the chance at lynching player A or Player B. The argument against would be to put skum in a tough spot with plurality and take the duel to force a lynch... but it is day one... so the only people that actually know anything are skum.