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Author Topic: Strictly Better  (Read 2133 times)

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Gubump

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2019, 04:46:21 pm »
0

If on the other hand we are simply talking about a very general list of when it is appropriate to use the term "strictly better", then that's just a question of terminology, and not one of listing out different Dominion effects. For example, I recently responded to a fan card in the Weekly Fan Card Contest thread by saying it had an effect that was strictly weaker than another card because it required you to discard. I and the person I was responding to know that technically, discarding a card can be an advantage. But that wasn't relevant; we knew that it's normally a disadvantage; so there's no issue with using the term "strictly better" there.

And that's exactly what I've been arguing about the whole time here and in the argument that started this thread to begin with. What started that argument was my claim that + is strictly worse than reducing costs by , because the latter is normally a bigger advantage, so there shouldn't have been any problem with my statement.

Yeah and I was completely with you on that thread... I think it's fine to use "strictly better" in a casual context meaning "close enough to strictly better that it's bad card design to make it cost the same".

That's also what I meant by "comparatively better" earlier. I see now that I've misunderstood the purpose of this thread, though.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2019, 04:49:14 pm »
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I see now that I've misunderstood the purpose of this thread, though.

Yeah, sorry for being unclear earlier.
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Awaclus

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2019, 05:01:02 pm »
+2

Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

However, Cathedral is three Labs (and more) and costs the same as Woodcutter.
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Gubump

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2019, 05:13:08 pm »
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Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

However, Cathedral is three Labs (and more) and costs the same as Woodcutter.

How? Cathedral has nothing to do with drawing.
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Awaclus

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2019, 05:22:33 pm »
+2

Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

However, Cathedral is three Labs (and more) and costs the same as Woodcutter.

How? Cathedral has nothing to do with drawing.

Trashing an Estate has the same effect on your deck as gaining a Lab.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2019, 06:40:28 pm »
+3

Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

However, Cathedral is three Labs (and more) and costs the same as Woodcutter.

How? Cathedral has nothing to do with drawing.

It's a meme-statement people started emphasizing to make fun of Awaclus's tendency to deliberately miscommunicate in order to make some tangentially related point several posts later. Awaclus still uses it in earnest.
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trivialknot

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2019, 06:49:29 pm »
+1

I don't really care about the definition of "strictly better", I just enjoy thinking of rules or edge-cases that other people haven't yet mentioned.  Don't we all?

Another strict improvement: Being a bane card--except online, where there's an information leak.

In theory, a card could be strictly better if it gave you more information, e.g. look through your discard pile, or have your opponent discard cards one at a time (so you can see them) instead of all at once.
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trivialknot

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2019, 06:53:00 pm »
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Another thought: is being forced to choose Stash's position in the shuffle strictly better than not having any choice?
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Awaclus

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2019, 07:21:47 pm »
+2

It's a meme-statement people started emphasizing to make fun of Awaclus's tendency to deliberately miscommunicate in order to make some tangentially related point several posts later. Awaclus still uses it in earnest.

You're underselling the analogy so much that it's ridiculous. Sure, people like to nitpick about things because god forbid anyone actually understands how to win games when you could instead just be Technically Correct on f.ds, but that doesn't invalidate anything.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2019, 07:52:56 pm »
0

It's a meme-statement people started emphasizing to make fun of Awaclus's tendency to deliberately miscommunicate in order to make some tangentially related point several posts later. Awaclus still uses it in earnest.

You're underselling the analogy so much that it's ridiculous. Sure, people like to nitpick about things because god forbid anyone actually understands how to win games when you could instead just be Technically Correct on f.ds, but that doesn't invalidate anything.

And you're overselling it so much that it's ridiculous. Cathedral is not the same as "gain a Lab each turn". It eventually forces you to trash good things. And trashing Copper reduces your buying power if you do it enough without buying anything better.

I think we need a new term for what people often mean (or least what I do) when they say a card is strictly better than another -- that is, having a similar effect while being better enough of the time that it ought to cost more than that card. For example, Noble Brigand is "comparatively better" (that's the term I'm using now) than Thief, hence part of why Thief isn't in 2E, even though it's definitely not strictly better.

Even if we do need this term, Noble Brigand vs. Thief really isn't a good example to pick. Noble Brigand can't steal Kingdom Treasures or Heirlooms, which are actually the biggest reasons to get Thief in the first place.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 07:57:30 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2019, 08:29:19 pm »
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In the other thread, people in general decided to call Possession as a "universal edge case" to be ignored; along with cost and name. Because if you don't choose to ignore those 3 things, then it's trivially true that no card in Dominion is strictly better than any other card.
I would concur very strongly with that. There are a few other things I'd regard as so utterly pathological and universal that they should be disregarded: you'd rather have a less good card to pass during Masquerade; a Capitalism-Merchant is less good than a regular Merchant if Locusts force you to gain a Copper. And so on.

But there's no way that wanting coin instead of cost reduction is such a ridiculous edge case that it should be disregarded when deciding whether or not one card is strictly better than another.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2019, 11:20:12 pm »
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Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

However, Cathedral is three Labs (and more) and costs the same as Woodcutter.

Projects and Events are an exception to most cost/power relationship unwritten rules. For Events, you only get the effect once per time you buy it (as opposed to once per shuffle for cards) and for Projects, you can only ever buy it once and it makes the game more interesting if that one time is early. That's not to say there's not other exceptions too.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2019, 11:33:58 pm »
+4

Can anyone come up with something not on the list so far?
- Adding "you win"
- Adding "your opponent takes Miserable/Twice Miserable/Deluded"
- Adding "take the Horn/Lost in the Woods"

Inflicting Deluded may protect the target from taking Envious via Envy. And taking Lost in the Woods may prevent you from getting the 3 boons from Fool.

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2019, 05:55:06 am »
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And you're overselling it so much that it's ridiculous. Cathedral is not the same as "gain a Lab each turn". It eventually forces you to trash good things. And trashing Copper reduces your buying power if you do it enough without buying anything better.

I didn't say it was "gain a Lab each turn", I said it was "three Labs (and more)", which it is. If you think that trashing all of your Coppers without buying anything better is a valid thing that happens in games between human players, then I would suggest re-evaluating that worldview.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2019, 06:46:33 am »
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Trashing and drawing can definitely be substitutes.
But the notion that Chapel, a Project which can blow up in your face in Kingdoms without gainers, equals having 3 or more Labs in your deck is pretty crazy.
It is like saying that Island is Hireling with 2VPs on top of it.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2019, 07:38:13 am »
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Trashing and drawing can definitely be substitutes.
But the notion that Chapel, a Project which can blow up in your face in Kingdoms without gainers, equals having 3 or more Labs in your deck is pretty crazy.

Does the "blow up in your face" meme originate from real games where it happened or fictional games where people imagined it could happen?

It is like saying that Island is Hireling with 2VPs on top of it.

The difference is that Hireling can draw multiple cards per shuffle, but yeah, that goes to demonstrate that Hireling is not a very good card.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2019, 08:32:48 am »
+1

Trashing and drawing can definitely be substitutes.
But the notion that Chapel, a Project which can blow up in your face in Kingdoms without gainers, equals having 3 or more Labs in your deck is pretty crazy.
It is like saying that Island is Hireling with 2VPs on top of it.

Cathedral can blow up in your face, but it takes a lot more than "not having gainers" to do so. Generally there needs to be a discard attack, or some reason the game takes a long time to resolve in the absence of any gainers at all. The latter is hard to come by except for junk attacks (which obviously aren't so bad here), and many discard attacks have +Buy, so it's basically down to "is there Militia on this board"
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segura

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2019, 11:25:48 am »
0

Trashing and drawing can definitely be substitutes.
But the notion that Chapel, a Project which can blow up in your face in Kingdoms without gainers, equals having 3 or more Labs in your deck is pretty crazy.
Does the "blow up in your face" meme originate from real games where it happened or fictional games where people imagined it could happen?
It won't make your stop making ridiculous comparisons or denying that Cathedral has a real downside but I have often had to trash non-junk with Cathedral.
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Awaclus

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2019, 11:37:30 am »
+2

Trashing and drawing can definitely be substitutes.
But the notion that Chapel, a Project which can blow up in your face in Kingdoms without gainers, equals having 3 or more Labs in your deck is pretty crazy.
Does the "blow up in your face" meme originate from real games where it happened or fictional games where people imagined it could happen?
It won't make your stop making ridiculous comparisons or denying that Cathedral has a real downside but I have often had to trash non-junk with Cathedral.

It certainly won't make me stop making ridiculous comparisons because I have never made ridiculous comparisons in the first place, but trashing a few Silvers or redundant engine components during the very late stages of the game is a negligible price for getting to open with a $3 Lab that gives you two more free labs on the first reshuffle, due to inflation.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2019, 11:46:06 am »
+3

I have never made ridiculous comparisons in the first place

Quote
open with a $3 Lab that gives you two more free labs on the first reshuffle, due to inflation.

No comment.
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Awaclus

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2019, 12:03:08 pm »
0

I have never made ridiculous comparisons in the first place

Quote
open with a $3 Lab that gives you two more free labs on the first reshuffle, due to inflation.

No comment.

I admit it's not the most straightforward sentence to parse.

Trashing a few Silvers or redundant engine components during the very late stages of the game is a negligible price [for getting to open with a $3 Lab that gives you two more free labs on the first reshuffle] due to inflation.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2019, 02:22:22 pm »
+1

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2019, 06:18:53 pm »
0

And you're overselling it so much that it's ridiculous. Cathedral is not the same as "gain a Lab each turn". It eventually forces you to trash good things. And trashing Copper reduces your buying power if you do it enough without buying anything better.

I didn't say it was "gain a Lab each turn", I said it was "three Labs (and more)", which it is. If you think that trashing all of your Coppers without buying anything better is a valid thing that happens in games between human players, then I would suggest re-evaluating that worldview.

You're missing the point. With Cathedral you have to spend time and $ replacing the payload you're trashing. You don't have to do that if you're just gaining Labs.
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Awaclus

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2019, 06:31:50 pm »
+2

You're missing the point. With Cathedral you have to spend time and $ replacing the payload you're trashing. You don't have to do that if you're just gaining Labs.

I don't think you should be spending time and $ replacing the Estates you're trashing.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2019, 07:29:39 pm »
0

And you're overselling it so much that it's ridiculous. Cathedral is not the same as "gain a Lab each turn". It eventually forces you to trash good things. And trashing Copper reduces your buying power if you do it enough without buying anything better.

I didn't say it was "gain a Lab each turn", I said it was "three Labs (and more)", which it is. If you think that trashing all of your Coppers without buying anything better is a valid thing that happens in games between human players, then I would suggest re-evaluating that worldview.

You're missing the point. With Cathedral you have to spend time and $ replacing the payload you're trashing. You don't have to do that if you're just gaining Labs.

The thing you're missing is that even the "baseline" Cathedral strategy is fast enough that you will spend very few turns trashing Silvers or other weak payload. If you get to that point where you are repeatedly re-buying payload, either there was a card that horribly slowed down the board or you misplayed really badly.

Lab is different than trashing for dozens of reasons, of course.
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