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Author Topic: Strictly Better  (Read 15168 times)

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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2019, 10:45:54 pm »
0

And you're overselling it so much that it's ridiculous. Cathedral is not the same as "gain a Lab each turn". It eventually forces you to trash good things. And trashing Copper reduces your buying power if you do it enough without buying anything better.

I didn't say it was "gain a Lab each turn", I said it was "three Labs (and more)", which it is. If you think that trashing all of your Coppers without buying anything better is a valid thing that happens in games between human players, then I would suggest re-evaluating that worldview.

You're missing the point. With Cathedral you have to spend time and $ replacing the payload you're trashing. You don't have to do that if you're just gaining Labs.

The thing you're missing is that even the "baseline" Cathedral strategy is fast enough that you will spend very few turns trashing Silvers or other weak payload. If you get to that point where you are repeatedly re-buying payload, either there was a card that horribly slowed down the board or you misplayed really badly.

Lab is different than trashing for dozens of reasons, of course.

I was talking about Coppers, not Silvers. Trashing Copper has the (big) upside of making it easier to draw, with the downside of losing some payload. Gaining a Lab, though, is the best of both worlds: you get more draw without losing that $. That's the crucial difference.

You're missing the point. With Cathedral you have to spend time and $ replacing the payload you're trashing. You don't have to do that if you're just gaining Labs.

I don't think you should be spending time and $ replacing the Estates you're trashing.

I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2019, 11:06:28 pm »
+3

I was talking about Coppers, not Silvers. Trashing Copper has the (big) upside of making it easier to draw, with the downside of losing some payload. Gaining a Lab, though, is the best of both worlds: you get more draw without losing that $. That's the crucial difference.

Trashing two Estates is like gaining two Labs and taking Miserable. Trashing a Curse is like gaining a Lab and taking a token. Trashing a Lab is like gaining a Lab and then trashing two Labs.
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segura

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2019, 02:13:27 am »
0

I was talking about Coppers, not Silvers. Trashing Copper has the (big) upside of making it easier to draw, with the downside of losing some payload. Gaining a Lab, though, is the best of both worlds: you get more draw without losing that $. That's the crucial difference.

Trashing two Estates is like gaining two Labs and taking Miserable. Trashing a Curse is like gaining a Lab and taking a token. Trashing a Lab is like gaining a Lab and then trashing two Labs.
This is a decent heuristic but equalizing trashing and drawing is only OK when there is no source of draw/sifting on the board . For example a hypothetical card which says +3 Cards +1 Action | When you gain this, gain 2 Curses. seems, if one uses such static, non-comparative analysis, like getting a cantrip and taking Miserable, i.e. not something you ever want. But perhaps there are sifters or trashers that can deal with the Curses such that the Double Lab is actually a pretty strong card.

You always have to analyze comparitively, a board can have drawers, sifters and trashers and the relative strength of each influences the relative strength of the other cards. If there is only Trade Route to deal with the junk, Trade Route is stronger than in a situation in which there is also Dungeon.

You always have to analyze dynamically, i.e. when you use e.g. Hideout as a trasher and a village you might want to trash slower than in a situation in which you only use it as trasher. Tempo always matters and it influences how quickly you want to trash, how quickly you want to build up draw power and how quickly you want to build up payload.

These intricacies are, at least to me, at the core of the game. If things were as simple as Cathedral = 3 Labs, easily by far the most lunatic thing I ever heard concerning Dominion, the game would be solved and not be as opaque and and as interesting as it is.
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Awaclus

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2019, 04:46:18 am »
+1

I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.

Cathedral trashes 0-1 Coppers and 2-3 Estates on reshuffles 0 and 1. You're caring about that 0-1 Coppers pretty disproportionately.

This is a decent heuristic but equalizing trashing and drawing is only OK when there is no source of draw/sifting on the board . For example a hypothetical card which says +3 Cards +1 Action | When you gain this, gain 2 Curses. seems, if one uses such static, non-comparative analysis, like getting a cantrip and taking Miserable, i.e. not something you ever want. But perhaps there are sifters or trashers that can deal with the Curses such that the Double Lab is actually a pretty strong card.

You always have to analyze comparitively, a board can have drawers, sifters and trashers and the relative strength of each influences the relative strength of the other cards. If there is only Trade Route to deal with the junk, Trade Route is stronger than in a situation in which there is also Dungeon.

You always have to analyze dynamically, i.e. when you use e.g. Hideout as a trasher and a village you might want to trash slower than in a situation in which you only use it as trasher. Tempo always matters and it influences how quickly you want to trash, how quickly you want to build up draw power and how quickly you want to build up payload.

These intricacies are, at least to me, at the core of the game. If things were as simple as Cathedral = 3 Labs, easily by far the most lunatic thing I ever heard concerning Dominion, the game would be solved and not be as opaque and and as interesting as it is.

Presumably anyone who isn't a complete moron can figure that out on their own. However, there's a lot of evidence of people who aren't complete morons underestimating how strong trashing is due to not having a straightforward point of reference for it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2019, 10:12:19 am »
+5


I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.

He's doing that thing where he pretends like it was clear and obvious that he was only considering trashing Estates. It was implied if you were reading between the lines, but far from obvious. That's the reason he was specifically talking about "3 labs", because you have 3 Estates to trash. He's talking only about trashing your initial 3 Estates.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2019, 03:12:42 pm »
0


I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.

He's doing that thing where he pretends like it was clear and obvious that he was only considering trashing Estates.
Well, that's not how Chapel works which is why Chuckles was right while that other poster was beyond totally wrong about it.
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Awaclus

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2019, 03:48:48 pm »
+1


I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.

He's doing that thing where he pretends like it was clear and obvious that he was only considering trashing Estates.
Well, that's not how Chapel works which is why Chuckles was right while that other poster was beyond totally wrong about it.

We're talking about Cathedral here, not Chapel.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2019, 06:23:40 pm »
+2

I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.
Cathedral trashes 0-1 Coppers and 2-3 Estates on reshuffles 0 and 1. You're caring about that 0-1 Coppers pretty disproportionately.

I'm not caring about the 0-1 Coppers you have to trash on shuffles 0 and 1, I'm caring about the 7 Coppers you nearly always have to trash before the game ends. I don't know why you're talking as if Cathedral's effect ends after you trash your Estates.
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Awaclus

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2019, 07:15:58 pm »
+2

I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.
Cathedral trashes 0-1 Coppers and 2-3 Estates on reshuffles 0 and 1. You're caring about that 0-1 Coppers pretty disproportionately.

I'm not caring about the 0-1 Coppers you have to trash on shuffles 0 and 1, I'm caring about the 7 Coppers you nearly always have to trash before the game ends. I don't know why you're talking as if Cathedral's effect ends after you trash your Estates.

You want to trash your Coppers too, so that's a bonus effect on top of gaining the three Labs.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2019, 07:42:33 pm »
+2

I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.
Cathedral trashes 0-1 Coppers and 2-3 Estates on reshuffles 0 and 1. You're caring about that 0-1 Coppers pretty disproportionately.

I'm not caring about the 0-1 Coppers you have to trash on shuffles 0 and 1, I'm caring about the 7 Coppers you nearly always have to trash before the game ends. I don't know why you're talking as if Cathedral's effect ends after you trash your Estates.

You want to trash your Coppers too, so that's a bonus effect on top of gaining the three Labs.

It's a bonus effect with the important downside of having to buy other payload to replace the Coppers. Which is why Cathedral is not "3 Labs for $3".
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Titandrake

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2019, 09:31:58 pm »
+9

For future reference these arguments are exactly why you should stop using the Lab analogy Awaclus.

I even think Awaclus is right here, people are way too scared of Cathedral trashing a Silver or something. If there isn't a discard attack, Cathedral trashing a Silver is a *good* sign, it means your worst card is a Silver. Do you know how long that takes normally? Really really long in most kingdoms! Oh no, I had to trash a Silver because I trashed 5 of my Coppers and all my Estates. That's like the definition of a Dominion first world problem.

The Lab analogy has been memed to high heaven and no longer means anything outside of that meme. The fact that you keep using it is part of that meme, and feeds its irrelevance. It's actually really funny now that I think about it.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2019, 11:11:43 pm »
+1

Commodore Chuckles isn't trying to say anything about Cathedral being bad. The point is that it is different from, not worse than gaining a bunch of Labs.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this. But I'm pretty sure that's what's going on, and also that this misunderstanding is what is feeding the whole argument. You can also correct me if I'm wrong about that.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2019, 11:18:31 pm »
+1

Commodore Chuckles isn't trying to say anything about Cathedral being bad. The point is that it is different from, not worse than gaining a bunch of Labs.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this. But I'm pretty sure that's what's going on, and also that this misunderstanding is what is feeding the whole argument. You can also correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Basically, that's what I'm saying, yes. The two can't really be compared.
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Awaclus

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2019, 06:07:25 am »
0

Yes, Cathedral is different from gaining a bunch of Labs. It gains a bunch of Labs and then it does more stuff that also helps you.
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Seprix

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2019, 09:38:44 am »
0

I was talking about Coppers, not Silvers. Trashing Copper has the (big) upside of making it easier to draw, with the downside of losing some payload. Gaining a Lab, though, is the best of both worlds: you get more draw without losing that $. That's the crucial difference.

Trashing two Estates is like gaining two Labs and taking Miserable. Trashing a Curse is like gaining a Lab and taking a token. Trashing a Lab is like gaining a Lab and then trashing two Labs.

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soccerisfun

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2019, 10:55:28 am »
0

Cathedral may gain labs, but it's also an inverse hireling. Copper is also very underrated. If there's no gainer, you sort of just lose your deck over the course of the game - there was a league match last Tuesday where I was laughing my ass off when the decks started vanishing.
That being said, you get it not often that not, and anyone who knows the gaining a lab comparison isn't perfect probably knows Dominion pretty well already, and those who don't are usually the ones scared to buy cathedral! Thus, I do find it a useful analogy.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2019, 11:31:52 am »
+1

I was talking about Coppers, not Silvers. Trashing Copper has the (big) upside of making it easier to draw, with the downside of losing some payload. Gaining a Lab, though, is the best of both worlds: you get more draw without losing that $. That's the crucial difference.

Trashing two Estates is like gaining two Labs and taking Miserable. Trashing a Curse is like gaining a Lab and taking a token. Trashing a Lab is like gaining a Lab and then trashing two Labs.

Do you regret making this thread yet? I would!

Not really; the argument probably would have happened whether or not I made the thread, it was just a question of whether it happened here or in the Project-Card parallels thread. I just diverted the argument to a different thread.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2019, 11:43:51 am »
+10

I was talking about Coppers, not Silvers. Trashing Copper has the (big) upside of making it easier to draw, with the downside of losing some payload. Gaining a Lab, though, is the best of both worlds: you get more draw without losing that $. That's the crucial difference.

Trashing two Estates is like gaining two Labs and taking Miserable. Trashing a Curse is like gaining a Lab and taking a token. Trashing a Lab is like gaining a Lab and then trashing two Labs.

Do you regret making this thread yet? I would!

He could delete the thread, but it would really be the same thing as just making a better thread.
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crj

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2019, 04:49:13 pm »
0

I've bought Outpost to buff Cathedral more often than I've regretted buying Cathedral...
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ConMan

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2019, 07:13:57 pm »
+2

I was talking about Coppers, not Silvers. Trashing Copper has the (big) upside of making it easier to draw, with the downside of losing some payload. Gaining a Lab, though, is the best of both worlds: you get more draw without losing that $. That's the crucial difference.

Trashing two Estates is like gaining two Labs and taking Miserable. Trashing a Curse is like gaining a Lab and taking a token. Trashing a Lab is like gaining a Lab and then trashing two Labs.

Do you regret making this thread yet? I would!

He could delete the thread, but it would really be the same thing as just making a better thread.
I was going to say, I think this thread is strictly better than the previous thread on the phrase "strictly better".
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buckets

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2019, 03:48:32 am »
0

Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

However, Cathedral is three Labs (and more) and costs the same as Woodcutter.

How? Cathedral has nothing to do with drawing.

It's a meme-statement people started emphasizing to make fun of Awaclus's tendency to deliberately miscommunicate in order to make some tangentially related point several posts later. Awaclus still uses it in earnest.
yes that is very off-putting

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PK9

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2019, 06:28:55 pm »
0

Originally posted to the other thread but I see this one is more appropriate:

Strictly better makes only sense for something like Mining Village > Village as there is no instance (somebody could probably construct a weird exception) in which the former is worse than the latter.

There can be instances where Mining Village is equal to Village, because you will never use the optional trash ability. However, because the optional trash ability is optional, Mining Village can never be worse than Village. And if it could, as you point out, it wouldn't be strictly better anymore.

Weird exception time: You're playing Governor and you need to remodel the Village into a Duchy.

If we were to insist that "strictly better" must mean "always better", it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to find any examples.    Is Gold "strictly better" than Silver?  Not if you're playing Duchy.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2019, 01:16:53 am »
0

Originally posted to the other thread but I see this one is more appropriate:

Strictly better makes only sense for something like Mining Village > Village as there is no instance (somebody could probably construct a weird exception) in which the former is worse than the latter.

There can be instances where Mining Village is equal to Village, because you will never use the optional trash ability. However, because the optional trash ability is optional, Mining Village can never be worse than Village. And if it could, as you point out, it wouldn't be strictly better anymore.

Weird exception time: You're playing Governor and you need to remodel the Village into a Duchy.

If we were to insist that "strictly better" must mean "always better", it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to find any examples.    Is Gold "strictly better" than Silver?  Not if you're playing Duchy.
I'll say that, while Mining Village's trashing is optional, it has to be decided when it's played. So at that time with the info you have it may be the best choice to trash (for instance, it gives you a high chance of hitting $7 for Inheritance, or something similar), but then you draw more cards and it turns out that luck isn't on your side. You have played optimally, but would have been better off if Mining Village was instead Village.
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crj

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2019, 07:28:39 am »
+1

That's not a genuine edge case. You may decide you'll never trash Mining Village, in which case it is identical in behaviour to regular Village. It's better unless you somehow deem worthless the option to decide otherwise.

To take an extreme and pared-down analogy: I give person A a dollar. I give person B a dollar plus the option to toss a coin for double or quits. What I've given person B is better.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2019, 10:01:06 am »
0

That's not a genuine edge case. You may decide you'll never trash Mining Village, in which case it is identical in behaviour to regular Village. It's better unless you somehow deem worthless the option to decide otherwise.

To take an extreme and pared-down analogy: I give person A a dollar. I give person B a dollar plus the option to toss a coin for double or quits. What I've given person B is better.

No I think he's right... imagine in your analogy you gave person B a dollar plus the option to roll a d-1000 for double or quits... he gets $2 on 2-1000, and nothing on 1. The mathematically right move is to always take the roll, and that's also the practical right move unless a person is in a situation where they really need 1 dollar, but don't need 2.

The fact that a person can choose to not roll doesn't seem to matter here, because basically everyone will roll; it's the correct decision financially and in terms of game theory.

But for the person who rolls a 1, it would have been better for them if they hadn't had the option to roll.

*Edit* This just comes down to a part of the definition of "strictly better" that I don't think has ever been defined. For a person who has incredibly bad luck, his overall outcome will be worse if he's given the die roll choice with his dollar every time, assuming that he plays correctly. But it's still true that a person can choose not play correctly and instead pretend that his dollar is just a dollar without the die roll.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 10:46:59 am by GendoIkari »
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