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hhelibebcnofnena

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Strictly Better
« on: June 17, 2019, 10:29:28 am »
+1

This thread seems to have turned into a discussion on the actual meaning of strictly better, and segura brought up the example of Mining Village, which would be strictly better than Village at the same cost. This got me thinking about what can actually make a card strictly better (in a purely pedantic context) than another card. Here is the list I came up with:


"Strictly better effects" (not counting Possession):

- Adding a choice (such as Mining Village)
- Adding a vanilla bonus other than +Cards* (+Cards are not strictly better in draw to x engines, or if you don't want to trigger a reshuffle) +Buy
- Adding +Coffers, +Villagers, + or +
- Replacing + with +Coffers or Replacing +Actions with +Villagers
- Adding VP value to a card which is already a Victory card
- Any ability adding any other "strictly better ability" to another card (such as non +Cards Adventures tokens)

Effects which would be "strictly better effects" if you removed one or two specific cards from the game:
- Adding + (Storyteller), +Actions (Storyteller or Diadem)
- Adding +Coffers (Swashbuckler) or Replacing + with +Coffers (Black Market and Swashbuckler)

Can anyone come up with something not on the list so far?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 04:42:56 pm by hhelibebcnofnena »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2019, 10:34:39 am »
0

Adding both +Action and + can cause the same issues as adding +Cards, when combined with Diadem and Storyteller.

Replacing with Coffers doesn't work because of Black Market.

Also, see here for a long discussion dealing with all of this: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11280.0.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 10:36:41 am by GendoIkari »
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2019, 10:54:08 am »
0

Adding both +Action and + can cause the same issues as adding +Cards, when combined with Diadem and Storyteller.

Replacing with Coffers doesn't work because of Black Market.

Also, see here for a long discussion dealing with all of this: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11280.0.

+Buy can be converted into + via Priest+Watchtower, so I guess +Buy doesn't count either?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2019, 10:57:45 am »
0

Adding both +Action and + can cause the same issues as adding +Cards, when combined with Diadem and Storyteller.

Replacing with Coffers doesn't work because of Black Market.

Also, see here for a long discussion dealing with all of this: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11280.0.

+Buy can be converted into + via Priest+Watchtower, so I guess +Buy doesn't count either?

No, at least for now no card ever forces you to use any buy you have available. Storyteller forces you to use all your , and Diadem forces you to convert all your Actions to . Nothing forces you to use any buys just because you have them.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2019, 11:06:26 am »
0

Okay, I added a section for "almost strictly better": an effect which would be a "strictly better effect" if you removed one card from the game. So + and +Actions can go into that section, as can replacing + with +Coffers.
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Gubump

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2019, 11:41:37 am »
0

If only one card is preventing something from being strictly better, I think you can go ahead and call it strictly better. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as strictly better thanks to Possession.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2019, 11:45:42 am »
0

If only one card is preventing something from being strictly better, I think you can go ahead and call it strictly better. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as strictly better thanks to Possession.

In the other thread, people in general decided to call Possession as a "universal edge case" to be ignored; along with cost and name. Because if you don't choose to ignore those 3 things, then it's trivially true that no card in Dominion is strictly better than any other card.

The existence of Storyteller is different than the existence of Possession, because Possession makes every single card being discussed not strictly better. Storyteller's existence still allows for some things to be strictly better.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 11:46:56 am by GendoIkari »
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2019, 12:04:06 pm »
+1

Can anyone come up with something not on the list so far?
- Adding "you win"
- Adding "your opponent takes Miserable/Twice Miserable/Deluded"
- Adding "take the Horn/Lost in the Woods"
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2019, 12:08:10 pm »
+2

Coffers can be bad if you want to play Swashbuckler without getting the treasure chest.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2019, 01:37:22 pm »
0

- Adding "your opponent takes Miserable/Twice Miserable/Deluded"

There's probably 3-4 player scenarios where this actually doesn't work....


There is 1 Province left.

You have 1 point, opponent A has 0 points, opponent B has 6 points. Opponent A has a Lighthouse in play. Opponent A was start player. You can't afford to buy any points on your turn, and neither can opponent B. But Opponent A has in hand.

If you play card with "your opponents take Miserable", then opponent B goes down to 4 points. Opponent A will buy Province and end the game in a win.

If you play the same card except without "your opponents take Miserable", then opponent A can't buy the last Province without losing due to the tie breaker. When it comes back to your turn, you can buy the last Province and win.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 10:13:00 am by GendoIkari »
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segura

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2019, 03:05:38 pm »
0

Diadem forces you to convert all your Actions to .
This is not how Diadem works. You don't lose the Actions (which would matter in Villa Kingdoms). So more Actions are always betters than less.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2019, 03:10:49 pm »
0

Diadem forces you to convert all your Actions to .
This is not how Diadem works. You don't lose the Actions (which would matter in Villa Kingdoms). So more Actions are always betters than less.

It's because playing Diadem with Storyteller would force you to draw cards per unused Action that you wouldn't always want +Actions. It's the combo of Diadem + Storyteller that makes +Actions not strictly better.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2019, 03:24:52 pm »
0

I think we need a new term for what people often mean (or least what I do) when they say a card is strictly better than another -- that is, having a similar effect while being better enough of the time that it ought to cost more than that card. For example, Noble Brigand is "comparatively better" (that's the term I'm using now) than Thief, hence part of why Thief isn't in 2E, even though it's definitely not strictly better.

Likewise, cost reduction is comparatively better than +, even though yes, it is not strictly better. (And therefore Bridge is comparatively better than Woodcutter, even though there are situations where one might prefer Woodcutter.)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 03:27:11 pm by Gubump »
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2019, 03:29:36 pm »
0

Diadem forces you to convert all your Actions to .
This is not how Diadem works. You don't lose the Actions (which would matter in Villa Kingdoms). So more Actions are always betters than less.

I didn't mean literally "convert" as in lose the Actions; I just meant that you are forced to get the .
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2019, 03:30:15 pm »
+6

I think we need a new term for what people often mean (or least what I do) when they say a card is strictly better than another

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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2019, 03:34:05 pm »
0

Can anyone come up with something not on the list so far?
- Adding "you win"
- Adding "your opponent takes Miserable/Twice Miserable/Deluded"
- Adding "take the Horn/Lost in the Woods"

I'm mostly talking about effects which exist. "You win" doesn't exist on any Dominion card. I also don't want to include card-specific things like "take the Horn".

Coffers can be bad if you want to play Swashbuckler without getting the treasure chest.

Okay, I will move Coffers to the one-card-exception section.
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Gubump

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2019, 03:44:12 pm »
0

I think we need a new term for what people often mean (or least what I do) when they say a card is strictly better than another



Well, according to this discussion, a Lost City without its on-gain effect isn't actually strictly better than a Lab and (ignoring the existence of Lost City) therefore doesn't actually need to cost more, but it clearly does.
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segura

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2019, 03:46:57 pm »
0

Diadem forces you to convert all your Actions to .
This is not how Diadem works. You don't lose the Actions (which would matter in Villa Kingdoms). So more Actions are always betters than less.

I didn't mean literally "convert" as in lose the Actions; I just meant that you are forced to get the .
So? Ignoring for the moment who totally fringe Diadem-Storyteller is, if you don't want to draw, nobody forces you to play Diadem (or Venture which might draw into Diadem) while you play Storyteller.

Storyteller doesn't undo that more Coins and more Actions are always better. All that Storyteller does, once it is in your deck, is potentially change virtual Coins into card draw.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 03:48:56 pm by segura »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2019, 03:49:09 pm »
0

I think we need a new term for what people often mean (or least what I do) when they say a card is strictly better than another



Well, according to this discussion, a Lost City without its on-gain effect isn't actually strictly better than a Lab and (ignoring the existence of Lost City) therefore doesn't actually need to cost more, but it clearly does.

Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2019, 04:03:51 pm »
0

I think we need a new term for what people often mean (or least what I do) when they say a card is strictly better than another



Well, according to this discussion, a Lost City without its on-gain effect isn't actually strictly better than a Lab and (ignoring the existence of Lost City) therefore doesn't actually need to cost more, but it clearly does.

Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

Yes, but Lab would need to cost regardless of Woodcutter's existence. Before Poacher existed, most people agreed that a pure Peddler would be balanced at , and a pure Peddler would almost certainly be balanced at if Poacher didn't exist. Yet because of Poacher, a pure Peddler cannot exist since it would be strictly worse than Market and comparatively better than Poacher (Tunnels and draw to X might make you want to discard cards).

My point is, if an extreme edge case like Diadem + Storyteller is enough to disqualify a card from being strictly better than another, strictly better doesn't really mean anything because you could disprove a lot of "strictly better/worse" pairs with enough mental gymnastics.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 04:17:00 pm by Gubump »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2019, 04:20:19 pm »
+1

I think we need a new term for what people often mean (or least what I do) when they say a card is strictly better than another



Well, according to this discussion, a Lost City without its on-gain effect isn't actually strictly better than a Lab and (ignoring the existence of Lost City) therefore doesn't actually need to cost more, but it clearly does.

Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

Yes, but Lab would need to cost regardless of Woodcutter's existence. Before Poacher existed, most people agreed that a pure Peddler would be balanced at , and a pure Peddler would almost certainly be balanced at if Poacher didn't exist. Yet because of Poacher, a pure Peddler cannot exist since it would be strictly worse than Market and comparatively better than Poacher (Tunnels and draw to X might make you want to discard cards).

My point is, if an extreme edge case like Diadem + Storyteller is enough to disqualify a card from being strictly better than another, strictly better doesn't really mean anything because you could disprove most "strictly better/worse" pairs with enough mental gymnastics.

There's a reason that the other thread is in the puzzles subforum... because if being technical and pedantic, then determining what is strictly better or not includes thinking of ridiculous and obscure edge cases; an exercise that constitutes a puzzle.

If on the other hand we are simply talking about a very general list of when it is appropriate to use the term "strictly better", then that's just a question of terminology, and not one of listing out different Dominion effects. For example, I recently responded to a fan card in the Weekly Fan Card Contest thread by saying it had an effect that was strictly weaker than another card because it required you to discard. I and the person I was responding to know that technically, discarding a card can be an advantage. But that wasn't relevant; we knew that it's normally a disadvantage; so there's no issue with using the term "strictly better" there.

I guess my point is that there's 2 different discussions you could have. One is about a general terminology use, which it seems like this thread was intending to do. But in that discussion, there's no reason to list out the specific possible things you can add to a card to keep it strictly better. That sort of lists belongs in the other discussion; the one about puzzles.
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Gubump

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2019, 04:32:38 pm »
0

If on the other hand we are simply talking about a very general list of when it is appropriate to use the term "strictly better", then that's just a question of terminology, and not one of listing out different Dominion effects. For example, I recently responded to a fan card in the Weekly Fan Card Contest thread by saying it had an effect that was strictly weaker than another card because it required you to discard. I and the person I was responding to know that technically, discarding a card can be an advantage. But that wasn't relevant; we knew that it's normally a disadvantage; so there's no issue with using the term "strictly better" there.

And that's exactly what I've been arguing about the whole time here and in the argument that started this thread to begin with. What started that argument was my claim that + is strictly worse than reducing costs by , because the latter is normally a bigger advantage, so there shouldn't have been any problem with my statement.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 04:36:44 pm by Gubump »
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2019, 04:36:11 pm »
0

I guess my point is that there's 2 different discussions you could have. One is about a general terminology use, which it seems like this thread was intending to do. But in that discussion, there's no reason to list out the specific possible things you can add to a card to keep it strictly better. That sort of lists belongs in the other discussion; the one about puzzles.

I think my original post is unclear on that front. It sort of seems like it wants to talk about the general terminology use, but then it goes into the specifics somewhat pedantically. I think my original intent was the second one, but I didn't think the puzzles subforum was a good place for it, given that I started with a list that I thought at the time was complete (or close to it). If I had just asked people to come up with stuff from scratch, I would have put it in the puzzles subforum. I could be wrong about that, but I'm not sure how to move the thread anyway.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2019, 04:38:37 pm »
0

If on the other hand we are simply talking about a very general list of when it is appropriate to use the term "strictly better", then that's just a question of terminology, and not one of listing out different Dominion effects. For example, I recently responded to a fan card in the Weekly Fan Card Contest thread by saying it had an effect that was strictly weaker than another card because it required you to discard. I and the person I was responding to know that technically, discarding a card can be an advantage. But that wasn't relevant; we knew that it's normally a disadvantage; so there's no issue with using the term "strictly better" there.

And that's exactly what I've been arguing about the whole time here and in the argument that started this thread to begin with. What started that argument was my claim that + is strictly worse than reducing costs by , because the latter is normally a bigger advantage, so there shouldn't have been any problem with my statement.

Yeah and I was completely with you on that thread... I think it's fine to use "strictly better" in a casual context meaning "close enough to strictly better that it's bad card design to make it cost the same".
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2019, 04:42:10 pm »
0

So? Ignoring for the moment who totally fringe Diadem-Storyteller is, if you don't want to draw, nobody forces you to play Diadem (or Venture which might draw into Diadem) while you play Storyteller.

Storyteller doesn't undo that more Coins and more Actions are always better. All that Storyteller does, once it is in your deck, is potentially change virtual Coins into card draw.

Storyteller does undo the coins, because there are some cards which may force you to play it, such as e.g. Herald, when you would play that card anyway hoping for something else.
In terms of the actions, I'm a little unclear on it, but I guess the idea is that you might play the Diadem to get more coins, then maybe buy Villa and then play Herald or something? I'm not sure.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2019, 04:46:21 pm »
0

If on the other hand we are simply talking about a very general list of when it is appropriate to use the term "strictly better", then that's just a question of terminology, and not one of listing out different Dominion effects. For example, I recently responded to a fan card in the Weekly Fan Card Contest thread by saying it had an effect that was strictly weaker than another card because it required you to discard. I and the person I was responding to know that technically, discarding a card can be an advantage. But that wasn't relevant; we knew that it's normally a disadvantage; so there's no issue with using the term "strictly better" there.

And that's exactly what I've been arguing about the whole time here and in the argument that started this thread to begin with. What started that argument was my claim that + is strictly worse than reducing costs by , because the latter is normally a bigger advantage, so there shouldn't have been any problem with my statement.

Yeah and I was completely with you on that thread... I think it's fine to use "strictly better" in a casual context meaning "close enough to strictly better that it's bad card design to make it cost the same".

That's also what I meant by "comparatively better" earlier. I see now that I've misunderstood the purpose of this thread, though.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2019, 04:49:14 pm »
0

I see now that I've misunderstood the purpose of this thread, though.

Yeah, sorry for being unclear earlier.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2019, 05:01:02 pm »
+2

Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

However, Cathedral is three Labs (and more) and costs the same as Woodcutter.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2019, 05:13:08 pm »
0

Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

However, Cathedral is three Labs (and more) and costs the same as Woodcutter.

How? Cathedral has nothing to do with drawing.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2019, 05:22:33 pm »
+2

Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

However, Cathedral is three Labs (and more) and costs the same as Woodcutter.

How? Cathedral has nothing to do with drawing.

Trashing an Estate has the same effect on your deck as gaining a Lab.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2019, 06:40:28 pm »
+3

Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

However, Cathedral is three Labs (and more) and costs the same as Woodcutter.

How? Cathedral has nothing to do with drawing.

It's a meme-statement people started emphasizing to make fun of Awaclus's tendency to deliberately miscommunicate in order to make some tangentially related point several posts later. Awaclus still uses it in earnest.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2019, 06:49:29 pm »
+1

I don't really care about the definition of "strictly better", I just enjoy thinking of rules or edge-cases that other people haven't yet mentioned.  Don't we all?

Another strict improvement: Being a bane card--except online, where there's an information leak.

In theory, a card could be strictly better if it gave you more information, e.g. look through your discard pile, or have your opponent discard cards one at a time (so you can see them) instead of all at once.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2019, 06:53:00 pm »
0

Another thought: is being forced to choose Stash's position in the shuffle strictly better than not having any choice?
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2019, 07:21:47 pm »
+2

It's a meme-statement people started emphasizing to make fun of Awaclus's tendency to deliberately miscommunicate in order to make some tangentially related point several posts later. Awaclus still uses it in earnest.

You're underselling the analogy so much that it's ridiculous. Sure, people like to nitpick about things because god forbid anyone actually understands how to win games when you could instead just be Technically Correct on f.ds, but that doesn't invalidate anything.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2019, 07:52:56 pm »
0

It's a meme-statement people started emphasizing to make fun of Awaclus's tendency to deliberately miscommunicate in order to make some tangentially related point several posts later. Awaclus still uses it in earnest.

You're underselling the analogy so much that it's ridiculous. Sure, people like to nitpick about things because god forbid anyone actually understands how to win games when you could instead just be Technically Correct on f.ds, but that doesn't invalidate anything.

And you're overselling it so much that it's ridiculous. Cathedral is not the same as "gain a Lab each turn". It eventually forces you to trash good things. And trashing Copper reduces your buying power if you do it enough without buying anything better.

I think we need a new term for what people often mean (or least what I do) when they say a card is strictly better than another -- that is, having a similar effect while being better enough of the time that it ought to cost more than that card. For example, Noble Brigand is "comparatively better" (that's the term I'm using now) than Thief, hence part of why Thief isn't in 2E, even though it's definitely not strictly better.

Even if we do need this term, Noble Brigand vs. Thief really isn't a good example to pick. Noble Brigand can't steal Kingdom Treasures or Heirlooms, which are actually the biggest reasons to get Thief in the first place.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 07:57:30 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2019, 08:29:19 pm »
0

In the other thread, people in general decided to call Possession as a "universal edge case" to be ignored; along with cost and name. Because if you don't choose to ignore those 3 things, then it's trivially true that no card in Dominion is strictly better than any other card.
I would concur very strongly with that. There are a few other things I'd regard as so utterly pathological and universal that they should be disregarded: you'd rather have a less good card to pass during Masquerade; a Capitalism-Merchant is less good than a regular Merchant if Locusts force you to gain a Copper. And so on.

But there's no way that wanting coin instead of cost reduction is such a ridiculous edge case that it should be disregarded when deciding whether or not one card is strictly better than another.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2019, 11:20:12 pm »
0

Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

However, Cathedral is three Labs (and more) and costs the same as Woodcutter.

Projects and Events are an exception to most cost/power relationship unwritten rules. For Events, you only get the effect once per time you buy it (as opposed to once per shuffle for cards) and for Projects, you can only ever buy it once and it makes the game more interesting if that one time is early. That's not to say there's not other exceptions too.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2019, 11:33:58 pm »
+4

Can anyone come up with something not on the list so far?
- Adding "you win"
- Adding "your opponent takes Miserable/Twice Miserable/Deluded"
- Adding "take the Horn/Lost in the Woods"

Inflicting Deluded may protect the target from taking Envious via Envy. And taking Lost in the Woods may prevent you from getting the 3 boons from Fool.

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2019, 05:55:06 am »
0

And you're overselling it so much that it's ridiculous. Cathedral is not the same as "gain a Lab each turn". It eventually forces you to trash good things. And trashing Copper reduces your buying power if you do it enough without buying anything better.

I didn't say it was "gain a Lab each turn", I said it was "three Labs (and more)", which it is. If you think that trashing all of your Coppers without buying anything better is a valid thing that happens in games between human players, then I would suggest re-evaluating that worldview.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2019, 06:46:33 am »
0

Trashing and drawing can definitely be substitutes.
But the notion that Chapel, a Project which can blow up in your face in Kingdoms without gainers, equals having 3 or more Labs in your deck is pretty crazy.
It is like saying that Island is Hireling with 2VPs on top of it.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2019, 07:38:13 am »
0

Trashing and drawing can definitely be substitutes.
But the notion that Chapel, a Project which can blow up in your face in Kingdoms without gainers, equals having 3 or more Labs in your deck is pretty crazy.

Does the "blow up in your face" meme originate from real games where it happened or fictional games where people imagined it could happen?

It is like saying that Island is Hireling with 2VPs on top of it.

The difference is that Hireling can draw multiple cards per shuffle, but yeah, that goes to demonstrate that Hireling is not a very good card.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2019, 08:32:48 am »
+1

Trashing and drawing can definitely be substitutes.
But the notion that Chapel, a Project which can blow up in your face in Kingdoms without gainers, equals having 3 or more Labs in your deck is pretty crazy.
It is like saying that Island is Hireling with 2VPs on top of it.

Cathedral can blow up in your face, but it takes a lot more than "not having gainers" to do so. Generally there needs to be a discard attack, or some reason the game takes a long time to resolve in the absence of any gainers at all. The latter is hard to come by except for junk attacks (which obviously aren't so bad here), and many discard attacks have +Buy, so it's basically down to "is there Militia on this board"
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2019, 11:25:48 am »
0

Trashing and drawing can definitely be substitutes.
But the notion that Chapel, a Project which can blow up in your face in Kingdoms without gainers, equals having 3 or more Labs in your deck is pretty crazy.
Does the "blow up in your face" meme originate from real games where it happened or fictional games where people imagined it could happen?
It won't make your stop making ridiculous comparisons or denying that Cathedral has a real downside but I have often had to trash non-junk with Cathedral.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2019, 11:37:30 am »
+2

Trashing and drawing can definitely be substitutes.
But the notion that Chapel, a Project which can blow up in your face in Kingdoms without gainers, equals having 3 or more Labs in your deck is pretty crazy.
Does the "blow up in your face" meme originate from real games where it happened or fictional games where people imagined it could happen?
It won't make your stop making ridiculous comparisons or denying that Cathedral has a real downside but I have often had to trash non-junk with Cathedral.

It certainly won't make me stop making ridiculous comparisons because I have never made ridiculous comparisons in the first place, but trashing a few Silvers or redundant engine components during the very late stages of the game is a negligible price for getting to open with a $3 Lab that gives you two more free labs on the first reshuffle, due to inflation.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2019, 11:46:06 am »
+3

I have never made ridiculous comparisons in the first place

Quote
open with a $3 Lab that gives you two more free labs on the first reshuffle, due to inflation.

No comment.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2019, 12:03:08 pm »
0

I have never made ridiculous comparisons in the first place

Quote
open with a $3 Lab that gives you two more free labs on the first reshuffle, due to inflation.

No comment.

I admit it's not the most straightforward sentence to parse.

Trashing a few Silvers or redundant engine components during the very late stages of the game is a negligible price [for getting to open with a $3 Lab that gives you two more free labs on the first reshuffle] due to inflation.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2019, 02:22:22 pm »
+1

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2019, 06:18:53 pm »
0

And you're overselling it so much that it's ridiculous. Cathedral is not the same as "gain a Lab each turn". It eventually forces you to trash good things. And trashing Copper reduces your buying power if you do it enough without buying anything better.

I didn't say it was "gain a Lab each turn", I said it was "three Labs (and more)", which it is. If you think that trashing all of your Coppers without buying anything better is a valid thing that happens in games between human players, then I would suggest re-evaluating that worldview.

You're missing the point. With Cathedral you have to spend time and $ replacing the payload you're trashing. You don't have to do that if you're just gaining Labs.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2019, 06:31:50 pm »
+2

You're missing the point. With Cathedral you have to spend time and $ replacing the payload you're trashing. You don't have to do that if you're just gaining Labs.

I don't think you should be spending time and $ replacing the Estates you're trashing.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2019, 07:29:39 pm »
0

And you're overselling it so much that it's ridiculous. Cathedral is not the same as "gain a Lab each turn". It eventually forces you to trash good things. And trashing Copper reduces your buying power if you do it enough without buying anything better.

I didn't say it was "gain a Lab each turn", I said it was "three Labs (and more)", which it is. If you think that trashing all of your Coppers without buying anything better is a valid thing that happens in games between human players, then I would suggest re-evaluating that worldview.

You're missing the point. With Cathedral you have to spend time and $ replacing the payload you're trashing. You don't have to do that if you're just gaining Labs.

The thing you're missing is that even the "baseline" Cathedral strategy is fast enough that you will spend very few turns trashing Silvers or other weak payload. If you get to that point where you are repeatedly re-buying payload, either there was a card that horribly slowed down the board or you misplayed really badly.

Lab is different than trashing for dozens of reasons, of course.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2019, 10:45:54 pm »
0

And you're overselling it so much that it's ridiculous. Cathedral is not the same as "gain a Lab each turn". It eventually forces you to trash good things. And trashing Copper reduces your buying power if you do it enough without buying anything better.

I didn't say it was "gain a Lab each turn", I said it was "three Labs (and more)", which it is. If you think that trashing all of your Coppers without buying anything better is a valid thing that happens in games between human players, then I would suggest re-evaluating that worldview.

You're missing the point. With Cathedral you have to spend time and $ replacing the payload you're trashing. You don't have to do that if you're just gaining Labs.

The thing you're missing is that even the "baseline" Cathedral strategy is fast enough that you will spend very few turns trashing Silvers or other weak payload. If you get to that point where you are repeatedly re-buying payload, either there was a card that horribly slowed down the board or you misplayed really badly.

Lab is different than trashing for dozens of reasons, of course.

I was talking about Coppers, not Silvers. Trashing Copper has the (big) upside of making it easier to draw, with the downside of losing some payload. Gaining a Lab, though, is the best of both worlds: you get more draw without losing that $. That's the crucial difference.

You're missing the point. With Cathedral you have to spend time and $ replacing the payload you're trashing. You don't have to do that if you're just gaining Labs.

I don't think you should be spending time and $ replacing the Estates you're trashing.

I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2019, 11:06:28 pm »
+3

I was talking about Coppers, not Silvers. Trashing Copper has the (big) upside of making it easier to draw, with the downside of losing some payload. Gaining a Lab, though, is the best of both worlds: you get more draw without losing that $. That's the crucial difference.

Trashing two Estates is like gaining two Labs and taking Miserable. Trashing a Curse is like gaining a Lab and taking a token. Trashing a Lab is like gaining a Lab and then trashing two Labs.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2019, 02:13:27 am »
0

I was talking about Coppers, not Silvers. Trashing Copper has the (big) upside of making it easier to draw, with the downside of losing some payload. Gaining a Lab, though, is the best of both worlds: you get more draw without losing that $. That's the crucial difference.

Trashing two Estates is like gaining two Labs and taking Miserable. Trashing a Curse is like gaining a Lab and taking a token. Trashing a Lab is like gaining a Lab and then trashing two Labs.
This is a decent heuristic but equalizing trashing and drawing is only OK when there is no source of draw/sifting on the board . For example a hypothetical card which says +3 Cards +1 Action | When you gain this, gain 2 Curses. seems, if one uses such static, non-comparative analysis, like getting a cantrip and taking Miserable, i.e. not something you ever want. But perhaps there are sifters or trashers that can deal with the Curses such that the Double Lab is actually a pretty strong card.

You always have to analyze comparitively, a board can have drawers, sifters and trashers and the relative strength of each influences the relative strength of the other cards. If there is only Trade Route to deal with the junk, Trade Route is stronger than in a situation in which there is also Dungeon.

You always have to analyze dynamically, i.e. when you use e.g. Hideout as a trasher and a village you might want to trash slower than in a situation in which you only use it as trasher. Tempo always matters and it influences how quickly you want to trash, how quickly you want to build up draw power and how quickly you want to build up payload.

These intricacies are, at least to me, at the core of the game. If things were as simple as Cathedral = 3 Labs, easily by far the most lunatic thing I ever heard concerning Dominion, the game would be solved and not be as opaque and and as interesting as it is.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2019, 04:46:18 am »
+1

I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.

Cathedral trashes 0-1 Coppers and 2-3 Estates on reshuffles 0 and 1. You're caring about that 0-1 Coppers pretty disproportionately.

This is a decent heuristic but equalizing trashing and drawing is only OK when there is no source of draw/sifting on the board . For example a hypothetical card which says +3 Cards +1 Action | When you gain this, gain 2 Curses. seems, if one uses such static, non-comparative analysis, like getting a cantrip and taking Miserable, i.e. not something you ever want. But perhaps there are sifters or trashers that can deal with the Curses such that the Double Lab is actually a pretty strong card.

You always have to analyze comparitively, a board can have drawers, sifters and trashers and the relative strength of each influences the relative strength of the other cards. If there is only Trade Route to deal with the junk, Trade Route is stronger than in a situation in which there is also Dungeon.

You always have to analyze dynamically, i.e. when you use e.g. Hideout as a trasher and a village you might want to trash slower than in a situation in which you only use it as trasher. Tempo always matters and it influences how quickly you want to trash, how quickly you want to build up draw power and how quickly you want to build up payload.

These intricacies are, at least to me, at the core of the game. If things were as simple as Cathedral = 3 Labs, easily by far the most lunatic thing I ever heard concerning Dominion, the game would be solved and not be as opaque and and as interesting as it is.

Presumably anyone who isn't a complete moron can figure that out on their own. However, there's a lot of evidence of people who aren't complete morons underestimating how strong trashing is due to not having a straightforward point of reference for it.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2019, 10:12:19 am »
+5


I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.

He's doing that thing where he pretends like it was clear and obvious that he was only considering trashing Estates. It was implied if you were reading between the lines, but far from obvious. That's the reason he was specifically talking about "3 labs", because you have 3 Estates to trash. He's talking only about trashing your initial 3 Estates.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2019, 03:12:42 pm »
0


I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.

He's doing that thing where he pretends like it was clear and obvious that he was only considering trashing Estates.
Well, that's not how Chapel works which is why Chuckles was right while that other poster was beyond totally wrong about it.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2019, 03:48:48 pm »
+1


I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.

He's doing that thing where he pretends like it was clear and obvious that he was only considering trashing Estates.
Well, that's not how Chapel works which is why Chuckles was right while that other poster was beyond totally wrong about it.

We're talking about Cathedral here, not Chapel.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2019, 06:23:40 pm »
+2

I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.
Cathedral trashes 0-1 Coppers and 2-3 Estates on reshuffles 0 and 1. You're caring about that 0-1 Coppers pretty disproportionately.

I'm not caring about the 0-1 Coppers you have to trash on shuffles 0 and 1, I'm caring about the 7 Coppers you nearly always have to trash before the game ends. I don't know why you're talking as if Cathedral's effect ends after you trash your Estates.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2019, 07:15:58 pm »
+2

I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.
Cathedral trashes 0-1 Coppers and 2-3 Estates on reshuffles 0 and 1. You're caring about that 0-1 Coppers pretty disproportionately.

I'm not caring about the 0-1 Coppers you have to trash on shuffles 0 and 1, I'm caring about the 7 Coppers you nearly always have to trash before the game ends. I don't know why you're talking as if Cathedral's effect ends after you trash your Estates.

You want to trash your Coppers too, so that's a bonus effect on top of gaining the three Labs.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2019, 07:42:33 pm »
+2

I can't tell if you're joking or not. I was talking about Coppers, not Estates.
Cathedral trashes 0-1 Coppers and 2-3 Estates on reshuffles 0 and 1. You're caring about that 0-1 Coppers pretty disproportionately.

I'm not caring about the 0-1 Coppers you have to trash on shuffles 0 and 1, I'm caring about the 7 Coppers you nearly always have to trash before the game ends. I don't know why you're talking as if Cathedral's effect ends after you trash your Estates.

You want to trash your Coppers too, so that's a bonus effect on top of gaining the three Labs.

It's a bonus effect with the important downside of having to buy other payload to replace the Coppers. Which is why Cathedral is not "3 Labs for $3".
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Titandrake

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2019, 09:31:58 pm »
+9

For future reference these arguments are exactly why you should stop using the Lab analogy Awaclus.

I even think Awaclus is right here, people are way too scared of Cathedral trashing a Silver or something. If there isn't a discard attack, Cathedral trashing a Silver is a *good* sign, it means your worst card is a Silver. Do you know how long that takes normally? Really really long in most kingdoms! Oh no, I had to trash a Silver because I trashed 5 of my Coppers and all my Estates. That's like the definition of a Dominion first world problem.

The Lab analogy has been memed to high heaven and no longer means anything outside of that meme. The fact that you keep using it is part of that meme, and feeds its irrelevance. It's actually really funny now that I think about it.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2019, 11:11:43 pm »
+1

Commodore Chuckles isn't trying to say anything about Cathedral being bad. The point is that it is different from, not worse than gaining a bunch of Labs.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this. But I'm pretty sure that's what's going on, and also that this misunderstanding is what is feeding the whole argument. You can also correct me if I'm wrong about that.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2019, 11:18:31 pm »
+1

Commodore Chuckles isn't trying to say anything about Cathedral being bad. The point is that it is different from, not worse than gaining a bunch of Labs.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this. But I'm pretty sure that's what's going on, and also that this misunderstanding is what is feeding the whole argument. You can also correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Basically, that's what I'm saying, yes. The two can't really be compared.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2019, 06:07:25 am »
0

Yes, Cathedral is different from gaining a bunch of Labs. It gains a bunch of Labs and then it does more stuff that also helps you.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2019, 09:38:44 am »
0

I was talking about Coppers, not Silvers. Trashing Copper has the (big) upside of making it easier to draw, with the downside of losing some payload. Gaining a Lab, though, is the best of both worlds: you get more draw without losing that $. That's the crucial difference.

Trashing two Estates is like gaining two Labs and taking Miserable. Trashing a Curse is like gaining a Lab and taking a token. Trashing a Lab is like gaining a Lab and then trashing two Labs.

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2019, 10:55:28 am »
0

Cathedral may gain labs, but it's also an inverse hireling. Copper is also very underrated. If there's no gainer, you sort of just lose your deck over the course of the game - there was a league match last Tuesday where I was laughing my ass off when the decks started vanishing.
That being said, you get it not often that not, and anyone who knows the gaining a lab comparison isn't perfect probably knows Dominion pretty well already, and those who don't are usually the ones scared to buy cathedral! Thus, I do find it a useful analogy.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2019, 11:31:52 am »
+1

I was talking about Coppers, not Silvers. Trashing Copper has the (big) upside of making it easier to draw, with the downside of losing some payload. Gaining a Lab, though, is the best of both worlds: you get more draw without losing that $. That's the crucial difference.

Trashing two Estates is like gaining two Labs and taking Miserable. Trashing a Curse is like gaining a Lab and taking a token. Trashing a Lab is like gaining a Lab and then trashing two Labs.

Do you regret making this thread yet? I would!

Not really; the argument probably would have happened whether or not I made the thread, it was just a question of whether it happened here or in the Project-Card parallels thread. I just diverted the argument to a different thread.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2019, 11:43:51 am »
+10

I was talking about Coppers, not Silvers. Trashing Copper has the (big) upside of making it easier to draw, with the downside of losing some payload. Gaining a Lab, though, is the best of both worlds: you get more draw without losing that $. That's the crucial difference.

Trashing two Estates is like gaining two Labs and taking Miserable. Trashing a Curse is like gaining a Lab and taking a token. Trashing a Lab is like gaining a Lab and then trashing two Labs.

Do you regret making this thread yet? I would!

He could delete the thread, but it would really be the same thing as just making a better thread.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2019, 04:49:13 pm »
0

I've bought Outpost to buff Cathedral more often than I've regretted buying Cathedral...
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2019, 07:13:57 pm »
+2

I was talking about Coppers, not Silvers. Trashing Copper has the (big) upside of making it easier to draw, with the downside of losing some payload. Gaining a Lab, though, is the best of both worlds: you get more draw without losing that $. That's the crucial difference.

Trashing two Estates is like gaining two Labs and taking Miserable. Trashing a Curse is like gaining a Lab and taking a token. Trashing a Lab is like gaining a Lab and then trashing two Labs.

Do you regret making this thread yet? I would!

He could delete the thread, but it would really be the same thing as just making a better thread.
I was going to say, I think this thread is strictly better than the previous thread on the phrase "strictly better".
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2019, 03:48:32 am »
0

Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

However, Cathedral is three Labs (and more) and costs the same as Woodcutter.

How? Cathedral has nothing to do with drawing.

It's a meme-statement people started emphasizing to make fun of Awaclus's tendency to deliberately miscommunicate in order to make some tangentially related point several posts later. Awaclus still uses it in earnest.
yes that is very off-putting

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2019, 06:28:55 pm »
0

Originally posted to the other thread but I see this one is more appropriate:

Strictly better makes only sense for something like Mining Village > Village as there is no instance (somebody could probably construct a weird exception) in which the former is worse than the latter.

There can be instances where Mining Village is equal to Village, because you will never use the optional trash ability. However, because the optional trash ability is optional, Mining Village can never be worse than Village. And if it could, as you point out, it wouldn't be strictly better anymore.

Weird exception time: You're playing Governor and you need to remodel the Village into a Duchy.

If we were to insist that "strictly better" must mean "always better", it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to find any examples.    Is Gold "strictly better" than Silver?  Not if you're playing Duchy.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2019, 01:16:53 am »
0

Originally posted to the other thread but I see this one is more appropriate:

Strictly better makes only sense for something like Mining Village > Village as there is no instance (somebody could probably construct a weird exception) in which the former is worse than the latter.

There can be instances where Mining Village is equal to Village, because you will never use the optional trash ability. However, because the optional trash ability is optional, Mining Village can never be worse than Village. And if it could, as you point out, it wouldn't be strictly better anymore.

Weird exception time: You're playing Governor and you need to remodel the Village into a Duchy.

If we were to insist that "strictly better" must mean "always better", it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to find any examples.    Is Gold "strictly better" than Silver?  Not if you're playing Duchy.
I'll say that, while Mining Village's trashing is optional, it has to be decided when it's played. So at that time with the info you have it may be the best choice to trash (for instance, it gives you a high chance of hitting $7 for Inheritance, or something similar), but then you draw more cards and it turns out that luck isn't on your side. You have played optimally, but would have been better off if Mining Village was instead Village.
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crj

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2019, 07:28:39 am »
+1

That's not a genuine edge case. You may decide you'll never trash Mining Village, in which case it is identical in behaviour to regular Village. It's better unless you somehow deem worthless the option to decide otherwise.

To take an extreme and pared-down analogy: I give person A a dollar. I give person B a dollar plus the option to toss a coin for double or quits. What I've given person B is better.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2019, 10:01:06 am »
0

That's not a genuine edge case. You may decide you'll never trash Mining Village, in which case it is identical in behaviour to regular Village. It's better unless you somehow deem worthless the option to decide otherwise.

To take an extreme and pared-down analogy: I give person A a dollar. I give person B a dollar plus the option to toss a coin for double or quits. What I've given person B is better.

No I think he's right... imagine in your analogy you gave person B a dollar plus the option to roll a d-1000 for double or quits... he gets $2 on 2-1000, and nothing on 1. The mathematically right move is to always take the roll, and that's also the practical right move unless a person is in a situation where they really need 1 dollar, but don't need 2.

The fact that a person can choose to not roll doesn't seem to matter here, because basically everyone will roll; it's the correct decision financially and in terms of game theory.

But for the person who rolls a 1, it would have been better for them if they hadn't had the option to roll.

*Edit* This just comes down to a part of the definition of "strictly better" that I don't think has ever been defined. For a person who has incredibly bad luck, his overall outcome will be worse if he's given the die roll choice with his dollar every time, assuming that he plays correctly. But it's still true that a person can choose not play correctly and instead pretend that his dollar is just a dollar without the die roll.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 10:46:59 am by GendoIkari »
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2019, 06:18:35 pm »
+1

You guys are forgetting Possession again. A Mining Village in your deck is something you can trash once but that your opponent can trash every time they Possess you.

Also, if card A is not strictly better than card B when it gives you everything card B gives you plus a risky option, then I'm pretty sure nothing can ever be strictly better than anything else. The same argument can be used that Goons is not strictly better than Militia because it might motivate you to buy Coppers that will screw you over later, and so on.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 06:29:53 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2019, 07:37:35 pm »
+3

No I think he's right... imagine in your analogy you gave person B a dollar plus the option to roll a d-1000 for double or quits... he gets $2 on 2-1000, and nothing on 1. The mathematically right move is to always take the roll, and that's also the practical right move unless a person is in a situation where they really need 1 dollar, but don't need 2.
Turn that around, though. A player can adopt the strategy of never trashing a Mining Village unless they're certain doing so will enable them to buy a Province they otherwise wouldn't be able to afford. If you do adopt that strategy, Mining Village is always better than Village, even if only ever so slightly.

I claim that if there is at least one strategy for using card A which is better than any strategy for using card B, then A is, indeed, strictly better than B.
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Re: Strictly Better
« Reply #77 on: July 04, 2019, 05:08:10 pm »
0

That's not a genuine edge case. You may decide you'll never trash Mining Village, in which case it is identical in behaviour to regular Village. It's better unless you somehow deem worthless the option to decide otherwise.

To take an extreme and pared-down analogy: I give person A a dollar. I give person B a dollar plus the option to toss a coin for double or quits. What I've given person B is better.

No I think he's right... imagine in your analogy you gave person B a dollar plus the option to roll a d-1000 for double or quits... he gets $2 on 2-1000, and nothing on 1. The mathematically right move is to always take the roll, and that's also the practical right move unless a person is in a situation where they really need 1 dollar, but don't need 2.

The fact that a person can choose to not roll doesn't seem to matter here, because basically everyone will roll; it's the correct decision financially and in terms of game theory.

But for the person who rolls a 1, it would have been better for them if they hadn't had the option to roll.

*Edit* This just comes down to a part of the definition of "strictly better" that I don't think has ever been defined. For a person who has incredibly bad luck, his overall outcome will be worse if he's given the die roll choice with his dollar every time, assuming that he plays correctly. But it's still true that a person can choose not play correctly and instead pretend that his dollar is just a dollar without the die roll.
Ignoring your probabilities which heavily favour one outcome, I disagree. What faust mentioned is a risk management issue and has less to do with "strictly better". I know too little about stochastic game theory but I guess that technically speaking you could say something like: not liquidating does not stochastically dominante liquidating Mining Village or vice versa and thus by extension, Mining Village does not stochastically dominate Village as you can pick an option which is good ex ante but turns out to suck afterwards. In other words, via buying Mining Village instead of Village, you gave yourself rope to hang yourself (more technically speaking, more options are not better than fewer options in a stochastic world or when you cannot calculate everything; e.g. in chess keeping the position opaque and giving your opponent more options instead of forced moves can be a decent strategy, especially if the opponent is in time trouble).

This risk management issue would still occur if, as DXV has suggested somewhere, Mining Village could be trashed for Coins at the start of the Buy phase (as you can still make a mistake concerning judging how long the game will take; you can still trash the Mining Village too early) but Mining Village 2.0 would then be superior to Village (ignoring funky edge cases like Possession, Will-of-Wisp with cost reduction and a deck with Forge and a lot of 5s that want matching 3s instead of 4s to forge into Provinces).
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