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scolapasta

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scolapasta's cards
« on: June 08, 2019, 01:52:53 pm »
+1

Hi all,

I recently discovered the Weekly Design contest and I love it! As I posted there, I've always wanted to come up with custom cards, but have struggled on where to start. Having the weekly design content to focus my ideas on a specific concept is fantastic! And to get feedback on top of that?? Wonderful!

Being new to this, I don't expect to win very often, but I would love to continue getting feedback and tweaking the cards until they work well. So this thread is for that. I'll post both cards from the contests and others I come up with and anyone interested in helping improve my ideas is welcome to comment.

This top post will contain the current version of all the cards.



Worshippers, a new type of token that you can "spend" during your Clean up phase:



Quote
At the start of your Clean-up phase, you may remove tokens from this to trash a card from your hand or one you have in play for each token removed.

Benefits of Worshippers (compared to just trashing a card):

• you can play a Copper (or other card) on the same turn that you trash it
• you can hold on to the trashing if you don't have anything current to trash
• the corollary to that is you can stock up on Worshippers as a defense to gaining Junk
• a trasher like Apse Chapel can effectively trash itself, when you're done with it

Cards that give Worshippers:

Apse Chapel, a Chapel variant
Cloister, an Action-Night that trashes in the day, and gathers Worshippers at night
Archbishop, a "Grand" Bishop
Congregation / Blessing, TfB for Worshippers
Occult Dealer, a card gives out one of type of each "spendable" token



Card-shaped things that care about Worshippers:

Tithe, an Event that trades a Worshipper for a $1
Mausoleum, a landmark that gives VPs for Worshippers
Convent, a Project that gives out a Worshipper when you gain or trash a Victory card
Chalice, an Artifact with a Bishop-like effect

]

FAQ:

• At the start of your Clean-up phase means before you discard any cards.
• Only use Title and Mausoleum in Kingdoms that games that give Worshippers.



Overpay for Tokens

Developing Village, overpay for Villagers
Endowment, overpay for Coffers
Graveyard, overpay for Worshippers





Challenge Cards:

Mystical Chest:, an Fate-Doom card
Cabal:, an TR variant that also works on Night cards
Stockpile:, a cheap "reloadable" Gold
Collector:, an Improve variant, with Magic Lamp as an Heirloom
Coven:, an event that allows you to turn Action into a Curser





Changelog:
v0.1 Worshippers, Apse Chapel, Archbishop, Parish - initial*
v0.1 Undercroft - initial*
v0.2 Worshippers - changed wording to "At the start of your Clean-up phase" to be more clear
v0.2 Archbishop - added additional Worshipper
v0.2 Parish - made more interesting by counting Worshippers
v0.2 Cloister (formerly Undercroft) - made into Action-Night, so it trashes cards now
v0.3 Graveyard (formerly Parish) - back to the initial version (with an additional Worshipper), but with new name
v0.3 Cloister - Night now always gets exactly +1 Worshipper
v0.2 Mystical Chest - initial (**)
v0.1 Blessing - initial
v0.3 Archbishop - 1 less VP, 1 less Worshipper, but now takes the Chalice
v0.1 Congregation - initial
v0.2 Blessing - now a reserve card that's not in the supply
v0.1 Title - initial
v0.1 Mausoleum - initial
v0.1 Convent - initial
v0.1 Chalice - initial
v0.3 Mystical Chest - fixed background color
v0.1 Occult Dealer - initial
v0.2 Congregation - loses +1 Card; gains blessing to hand
v0.3 Blessing - now an action - reserve card
v0.2 Occult Dealer - changed cost to $5
v0.2 Convent - changed cost to $3 and also gains Worshipper when trashing Victory cards
v0.1 Developing Village - initial
v0.1 Endowment - initial
v0.4 Graveyard - now overpay for Worshippers
v0.2 Developing Village - added +1 Action if you trade, +1 Card if you don't and the trade has to be differently named
v0.3 Worshippers - wording change; now, if you spend a Worshipper, you must trash a card
v0.3 Convent - dropped cost to $2
v0.4 Archbishop - changed Chalice taking to be conditional; removed no Coppers clause
v0.2 Chalice - now once per turn
v0.2 Cabal - initial (***)
v0.2b Stockpile - initial (***)
v0.3 Collector - initial (***)
v0.2d Coven - initial (***)
v0.4 Collector - added + 1 card
v0.3 Coven - lowered cost to $5 and removed non-Attack

(*) v0.1 of Worshippers, Archbishop, Parish, and Undercroft were only posted in the Weekly Design Contest thread
(**) v0.1 of Mystical Chest was never posted - see secret history for reasons why
(***) previous versions of these cards posted in Weekly Challenge thread
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 06:14:23 pm by scolapasta »
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scolapasta

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Re: scolapasta's cards: Secret History
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2019, 02:13:09 pm »
0

Here I'll post my "Secret History" for these cards and ideas, in case anyone is interested in the evolution and reasoning they each went through to get to their current state:



Worshippers / Cards that use Worshippers:

• I considered having Worshippers trash from just your hand or just in play. But I prefer trashing either, as long as the cards are balanced.
• Once I got the idea for the new token, my first idea was the Chapel variant. I then tried to think of names with religious connotations: Archbishop should obviously be a "Grand" Bishop, and Parish a Victory card (Parish has since been removed).
• I considered trying Apse chapel as +3 Worshippers (for $3?), but (with feedback help) decided that was too strong.
• Parish as a card that cared about Worshippers didn't scale well, so that is now a Landmark, Mausoleum (while its original concept became an earlier version of Graveyard).
• Cloister was originally just a Night card that rewarded other trashing. It then gained "daytime" trashing, but was still problematic. This version is simpler, and hopefully more useful.
• Archbishop originally just gave $, VPs, and Worshippers, but was worrisome due to the unconditional VPs. Now it takes the Chalice which has a Bishop-like effect to reward using those Worshippers to trash cards. Thematically, the Archbishops are vying for who gets to be the "Pope" and have more power.
• Blessing is an attempt at TfB for Worshippers, since standard TfB isn't possible with the deferred trashing. It began as a 1 shot pure Reaction, but was useless in non Worshipper games, so moved out of the supply and is now only in games with Congregation.
• Occult Dealer seemed like a no brainer - now that we have 3 types of spendable tokens, why not a simple card that gives one of each?
• Mausoleum is Parish as a Landmark, so it's no longer tied to a card that can be split unevenly; i.e. everyone gets the opportunity for the same benefit.
• Convent is the parallel to Academy and Guildhall.



Overpay for Tokens:
• The guiding principle was to continue the synergies between: Victory cards to Worshippers, Action cards to Villagers, Treasure card to Coffers.
• Graveyard had started as plain "on gain" but became the first of the "Overpay for Token" cards.
• Developing Village has some DNA from both Develop and Village.



Challenge cards:

Mystical Chest:
• v0.1 was never posted in the forum. It had +1 Action and you received a Boon instead of $3 at the start of your next turn (cost was only $2). But two things changed my mind quickly:
- This quote, from another thread: "The important thing is, most cards that do Boons either give you some other benefit you’re really playing it for..." http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18109.msg740687#msg740687
- By receiving the 2nd Boon, it guaranteed the other player would get a Hex if they played one, which didn't seem right; you shouldn't know at the time of playing, if you will be hurt by it or not.
• I considered a version where you immediately receive the Hex when the other player received their Boon; that version simplified the card text considerably, but I prefer how this version lets you choose the less harmful Hex and possibly forces your opponent into a tough decision - if you've set aside Misery, for example, do they play a card that gives them a 2nd boon but may not reveal as strong a Hex?

Cabal:
• Cabal started with the idea of a TR for Night cards. By itself, that was not compelling enough since you could usually just buy a 2nd copy of a good Night card (as they are not terminal). So it because Action-Night, and you can TR either an Action or Night card, or save it for next turn (and it can't be drawn dead).

Stockpile:
• I went through several iterations to get to the initial posyed version. First it was just a one treasure card, earning tokens via overpay - it started weak and tokens made it stronger; or you could remove tokens to make it weak again, but with a strong one time bonus. But the text got very tiny, so I tried a split pile. It was not clear to me, however, if it was ever worth buying the 2nd card to trigger the bonus. So it came back to one card again, until I realized I could reverse the token effect - start strong and get weaker. I first tried that with a dependent card to restock it, until I realized how silly that was, and it could just have the option to restock itself.

Collector:
• Inspired by Magic Lamp, I started with setting aside cards for which you already had a copy in play.  It was too weak that way, and also simpler to just let you set aside any card. Trashing first happened when you play, then moved to start of clean up (to allow for treasures and night cards), and then moved again to end of turn (in order to have a minor penalty/bonus for setting aside, that set aside cards may miss a shuffle).

Coven:
• This started out as a "cursed" token that hurt everyone equally; but to be more in line with the other Adventurers tokens (putting them on a card makes that card better for you than for other players), it is now a "cursing token" that changes your cards from that pile into cursers.


« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 06:03:45 pm by scolapasta »
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Re: scolapasta's cards: Worshippers
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2019, 02:18:38 pm »
0

This week's challenge is "Make me skip chapel!" The idea I came up with involved a new mechanic, Worshipper tokens, so in addition to the contest entry, I came up with several cards to demonstrate how it could work:

First, we had Coffers, tokens that you "spend" in your Buy Phase; then Villagers introduced tokens "spent" during your Action phase. Now let's welcome: Worshippers, a new type of token that you can "spend" during your Clean up phase:



Quote
At the start of your Clean-up phase, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or one you have in play.

Benefits of Worshippers compared to just trashing a card:

• you can play a Copper (or other card) on the same turn that you trash it
• you can hold on to the trashing if you don't have anything current to trash
• the corollary to that is you can stock up on Worshippers as a defense to gaining Junk
• a trasher like Apse Chapel can effectively trash itself, when you're done with it

Cards that use Worshippers:

Apse Chapel, a Chapel variant
Parish, a Victory card that counts Worshippers
Cloister, an Action-Night that trashes in the day, and gathers Worshippers at night
Archbishop, a "Grand" Bishop



FAQ:

• At the start of your Clean-up phase means before you discard any cards.



Questions:

Generally, of course, are these cards balanced?

Apse Chapel: I keep going back and forth on whether this should be +2 or +3 Worshippers. While I think +3 has a better chance of locking in the "skip Chapel" vote, it feels too strong. In lieu of extensive play testing, please let me know: is +2 Worshippers enough for you to consider skipping Chapel? Or does it need +3? (and if so, at what cost?)

Parish: the original was just boring and really just a token Victory card (no pun intended). This new version is more interesting (and thematically better - the more Worshippers you have, the more valuable your Parishes), but it could also well be broken. If so, help me fix it! (higher cost? more worshippers per VP? or is the idea generally broken?)

« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 05:03:19 pm by scolapasta »
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Kudasai

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Re: scolapasta's cards
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2019, 06:12:19 pm »
+1

Apse Chapel: I think +2 Worshipers is probably best as these tokens seem quite strong. A good card to compare this to would be Ratcatcher.

Apse Chapel is the same cost, provides double the trashing potential, most likely has a bigger card pool to trash from, but is a terminal Action. I think +2 Worshipers is fine if not a bit too strong. Of course talking about what Chapel-esque cards should cost is tricky as Chapel is artificially priced low.
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Re: scolapasta's cards
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2019, 08:29:21 am »
+2

Worshippers seem most similar to Monastery to me. Like with Monastery you trash at the end of your turn, so it is good with draw (and in the middlegame with junkers, here Ratcatcher can frequently miss your junk), and like Monastery it does not hurt your economy.
The advantage of Monastery is that it is nonterminal. The advantage of Apse Chapel is that it trashes on average more cards than Monastery (I think that you trash on average 1 card more often 3 cards), that you can save the Worshippers and that you can use them to trash the Apse Chapel itself.
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scolapasta

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Re: scolapasta's cards
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2019, 02:40:46 pm »
+1

Of course talking about what Chapel-esque cards should cost is tricky as Chapel is artificially priced low.

Right. Trying to create a card that is better than an overpowered card, but doesn't itself break the game is quite the challenge!

I'm glad to see some consensus on +2 Worshippers being the right place to have Apse Chapel at (play testing may reveal if that's too weak / strong).

(I did also consider having a combination of trashing and Worshippers, but that seemed less "pure" for what I felt should be a "pure" card)
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scolapasta

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Re: scolapasta's cards
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2019, 03:05:41 pm »
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What about the other cards?

Do Archbishop and Cloister seem balanced and interesting?

And Parish? I'm fairly unsure about this one. The concept would probably be better as a a Landmark*, though in a game without cards that give out Worshippers it would be useless. What's the general consensus on Landmarks, Event, Projects that involve mechanics that won't be in every game? The only official ones I can think of are Tomb, and Sewers, in games with no trashing.

* though would need a new name, as Parish is clearly a Victory card

Similarly, I had the idea of an Event that would only work in Worshipper games. A couple of possibilities:
Quote
Tithe - Event - $0
Once per turn: +1 Buy. Remove a Worshipper from your Worshipper Mat. If you do, +$1.

(depending on strength, possible alternatives are: 2 Worshippers per $1, or remove the "once per turn")
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Re: scolapasta's cards
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2019, 12:26:23 pm »
+2

I really like Apse Chapel, I played a few quick solo games just see how it generally plays out in the early turns and I really liked it. Regarding the cost, I think it basically comes down to how you want people to be able to open. I think $2, $3 and $4 are all defensible prices for it. Personally I think a card that trashes 2 cards at such a low cost to tempo as this is a bit much for $2 so I'd go with $3 or $4 depending on whether I wanted double Apse Chapel opening to be a thing. I know this was designed with the chapel contest in mind, but I'm ignoring that because I don't think designing cards around Chapel is a good way to go about it.

I don't like the new version of Parish, I'm not convinced that kind of token counting Victory card can really work. I also think that Worshippers are a particularly bad token for this because they naturally become useless after you run out of bad cards to trash, unlike Coffers or Villagers. The problem is that it plays dramatically differently when there are other Worshipper cards out. With no other Worshipper cards it's a version of the classic Victory card that counts itself, which no one has been able to make work aside from Castles sort of. Donald X touches upon his attempt at the idea in the Duke section of Intrigue's secret history here.  With a card like Apse Chapel in the kingdom it probably just becomes broken as you can stockpile worshippers for massive amounts of VP. You can try to reduce this by making the rate worse, but then you'll just be making it useless when there's no other Worshippers around so I'm not really sure what the fix is.

I preferred the original as a twist on Cemetery, although I think it could have given 2 Worshippers. So it'd be like Cemetery but can only trash 2 cards, but with the benefits of the trashing being in the form of Worshippers.

I don't find Cloister particularly compelling myself, rewarding you for trashing by giving you more trashing is weird to me. Sewers is a bit different as I see that as improving your trashing cards, rather than rewarding you for lining up your trashing card with another card.

I'd be careful with Archbishop giving +2vp unconditionally, it has the danger of leading to never ending games. It might be expensive enough that this doesn't become much of a problem, but I'd keep an eye on it. I always enjoyed how expensive trashers like Forge made you play a bit differently than the cheaper trashers so I like that about Archbishop.

I have a few vague ideas of things I think would be cool to do with Worshippers, but I won't share them unless you want me to.
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scolapasta

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Re: scolapasta's cards
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2019, 03:34:17 pm »
+1

Thanks for the well thought out feedback!



I really like Apse Chapel, I played a few quick solo games just see how it generally plays out in the early turns and I really liked it. Regarding the cost, I think it basically comes down to how you want people to be able to open. I think $2, $3 and $4 are all defensible prices for it. Personally I think a card that trashes 2 cards at such a low cost to tempo as this is a bit much for $2 so I'd go with $3 or $4 depending on whether I wanted double Apse Chapel opening to be a thing. I know this was designed with the chapel contest in mind, but I'm ignoring that because I don't think designing cards around Chapel is a good way to go about it.

I'm glad you got some play testing in! I plan on trying some, hopefully this week, with both Chapel and Apse Chapel on the board, and have Player 1 buy one and a Player 2 the other.

While I overall agree with not designing around Chapel, in this case since it's specifically meant to be a Chapel variant (not just for the challenge, but more generally), I'm ok with it.



I don't like the new version of Parish, I'm not convinced that kind of token counting Victory card can really work. I also think that Worshippers are a particularly bad token for this because they naturally become useless after you run out of bad cards to trash, unlike Coffers or Villagers. The problem is that it plays dramatically differently when there are other Worshipper cards out. With no other Worshipper cards it's a version of the classic Victory card that counts itself, which no one has been able to make work aside from Castles sort of. Donald X touches upon his attempt at the idea in the Duke section of Intrigue's secret history here.  With a card like Apse Chapel in the kingdom it probably just becomes broken as you can stockpile worshippers for massive amounts of VP. You can try to reduce this by making the rate worse, but then you'll just be making it useless when there's no other Worshippers around so I'm not really sure what the fix is.

I preferred the original as a twist on Cemetery, although I think it could have given 2 Worshippers. So it'd be like Cemetery but can only trash 2 cards, but with the benefits of the trashing being in the form of Worshippers.

Agreed - the more I thought about it, the more I felt it didn't work. You went beyond that and provided concrete reasons why, so thanks! I think the closest thing to a fix (mentioned previously) would be to make the concept a Landmark:

Quote
Mausoleum - Landmark
When scoring 1VP per 2 Worshippers you have (round down).

You'd, of course, only use this in games with a card that gave Worshippers, so is it even worth creating this card? (if I were officially publishing, I would not; but as a fan card to try out when I play these cards with friends - why not?)

Cemetery is an apt comparison. I can see bringing it back in that form, but with a more appropriate name:

Quote
Graveyard - Victory - $4
Worth 2VP. When you gain this, +2 Worshippers.

Graveyard is to Cemetery like Apse Chapel is to Chapel.

Now still just need an idea for Parish, which wants to be a Victory Card.



I don't find Cloister particularly compelling myself, rewarding you for trashing by giving you more trashing is weird to me. Sewers is a bit different as I see that as improving your trashing cards, rather than rewarding you for lining up your trashing card with another card.

Good point about Sewers and the difference between a Project and this card. Not sure yet if I'll keep this around or try to tweak some more. Maybe find a way to make the day part more compelling, and the Night directly just give you +1 Worshipper?



I'd be careful with Archbishop giving +2vp unconditionally, it has the danger of leading to never ending games. It might be expensive enough that this doesn't become much of a problem, but I'd keep an eye on it. I always enjoyed how expensive trashers like Forge made you play a bit differently than the cheaper trashers so I like that about Archbishop.

Over the weekend, I reread the Fan Card Creation Guide, and saw the flaws here when I got to Common Pitfall #19: Cards that allow unlimited accumulation of victory tokens.

So yes, this needs to be changed! In trying to make this analogous to Bishop, the issue was that Worshippers don't trash immediately. I might try something like "While this is in play, when you trash a card, you may discard this. If you do +1VP per $2 it costs (round down)."

(this creates a new problem, of two below the line clauses, which may not be worth the trouble - are there any other cards that have two below the line clauses?)



I have a few vague ideas of things I think would be cool to do with Worshippers, but I won't share them unless you want me to.

Please!

I think there's plenty of space for new cards that use Worshippers. I think the mechanic and my first card, Apse Chapel, are worthwhile, but as a new designer, I've struggled a little with finding the right concept and/or balance on these other cards.

So have at it! :)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 06:53:06 pm by scolapasta »
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Re: scolapasta's cards
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2019, 03:07:01 am »
+1

I'd be careful with Archbishop giving +2vp unconditionally, it has the danger of leading to never ending games. It might be expensive enough that this doesn't become much of a problem, but I'd keep an eye on it. I always enjoyed how expensive trashers like Forge made you play a bit differently than the cheaper trashers so I like that about Archbishop.

Over the weekend, I reread the Fan Card Creation Guide, and saw the flaws here when I got to Common Pitfall #19: Cards that allow unlimited accumulation of victory tokens.

So yes, this needs to be changed! In trying to make this analogous to Bishop, the issue was that Worshippers don't trash immediately. I might try something like "While this is in play, when you trash a card, you may discard this. If you do +1VP per $2 it costs (round down)."
I am not so sure; my hunch is that Archbishop is far less crazy than Goons

Unconditional +2VP is new and potentially problematic but as the card yields Coins you will likely still buy something and drive the game towards the end. Suppose you have a deck with 5 Archbishops and 4 Villages. Will you keep it running and make 10VPs per turn or will you green? There is no way to answer this theoretically, best is to just set up a Kingdom and playtest it solo from this situation with one player greening / adding other engine pieces and the non-player just making 10VPs per turn.

Instead of the unconditional VPs you could also do something like Goons but for trashing: "While this is in play, when you trash a card, +1VP." Given that you likely already want to / have to trash before you gain Archbishops, it is unlikely to become very crazy (you have to gain new stuff, draw into it and the Archbishops to keep your VP engine running).
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Re: scolapasta's cards
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2019, 11:55:32 pm »
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I got a chance to play test a little last night - in 3 games, Chapel beat Apse Chapel 2-1. That said, I'm still pleased with those results because:
• the Chapel player was Player 1 all three games.
• the two games Chapel won were close, while the game Apse Chapel won was not.
• in one of Chapel's win, Chapel got a 5-2 split.

(that and Apse Chapel got Runner up in the contest - woohoo!)

For the other cards, I updated the initial post with Graveyard replacing Parish, and a simpler Cloister. I still need to work on Archbishop as I mocked up a version with "while this is in play" and it was too busy.




Looking forward to seeing other's ideas for these tokens!
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Re: scolapasta's cards: Mystical Chest
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2019, 12:06:06 am »
0

While we wait for the next contest, let's revisit last week's ("Feeling Vulnerable") entry:

You find a mysterious chest. What luck! After carefully opening it, you'll get some Gold, but you may have also triggered a trap!:





Notes / Questions:

Having you set aside hexes makes sure you're not super hexed in multi player games (or even by a single opponent who gets multiple boons). An alternative way of providing this protection is: "While this is in play, when another player receives a Boon, if you haven’t already, receive a Hex."

Which is better?

The original way adds a neat dynamic that you may get to pick the weaker of multiple Hexes (and may have the effect of forcing your opponent into a tough decision - if you've set aside Misery, for example, do they play a card that gives them a 2nd boon and may reveal as strong a Hex?).

The second way simplifies the card text considerably (since the "while this is in play" is when you receive the Hex, that whole clause can be removed from the "on play").
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 05:01:45 pm by scolapasta »
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Re: scolapasta's cards: Mystical Chest
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2019, 08:14:19 am »
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This would be an awesome card to use Procession on. :)
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Re: scolapasta's cards: Mystical Chest
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2019, 12:59:36 pm »
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This would be an awesome card to use Procession on. :)

Sure. This is also true of most of the other cards that were part of that week's contest, by virtue of the challenge requirements.

Unless someone feels strongly that the simpler text is worth it, I think I'll keep the current version, as I like the idea of getting to select which hex you want to receive, and possibly forcing the other player(s) to think about whether it's worth getting another boon that could also give you a weaker hex.
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scolapasta

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Re: scolapasta's cards: Blessing
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2019, 01:16:09 pm »
0

Inspired by this week's contest*, here's a one-shot reaction for Worshippers, an attempt at TfB, since standard TfB isn't possible with the deferred trashing:



(*) this is not my entry, since it's exclusively for Worshippers, though my actual entry is purposefully written to work with them (as it deals with all tokens that you can "spend"). I'll post that one here once the contest is over.



Notes / Questions:

In an earlier post I asked, "What's the general consensus on Landmarks, Event, Projects that involve mechanics that won't be in every game? The only official ones I can think of are Tomb, and Sewers, in games with no trashing."

I can now expand that question to all cards in general, since this card is useless without Worshippers.

One concern is that it could be used in attacks as a stop card.

Outside of specifying rules that say "only use with other cards that give Worshippers", I could make it part of a split pile, though I don't like the thought of only having 5 of them. (or possible only 5 of the top card)

How have others handled similar situations?


« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 05:23:12 pm by scolapasta »
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mail-mi

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Re: scolapasta's cards
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2019, 03:43:17 pm »
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Blessing should give worshippers somehow, because otherwise it's completely useless in a game without worshippers.
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scolapasta

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Re: scolapasta's cards
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2019, 12:33:43 am »
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Blessing should give worshippers somehow, because otherwise it's completely useless in a game without worshippers.

Yes, that's what I was asking about in the "Notes / Questions" section. I also have an Event and a Landmark I'm planning on adding soon (both of which I posted about earlier in the thread) that would be useless in games without worshippers.

I see these options:
1. Change the card to give Worshippers.
2. Have card be part of a split pile and the other card give Worshippers.
3. Do nothing; allow a card or card shaped object to be could be useless in some games.
4. State in rules that this card should not be used in games without Worshippers.
5. Don't design the card.

In an ideal world, the best option is either #1 or #2. In this case, I can't think of a good way to do #1 without changing my purpose for the card. And this feels like a card that should have its own pile, so #2 doesn't work either. (and couldn't even be an option for the Event or Landmark)

#4, while not eloquent, seems strictly better than #3.

So between #4 and #5, I'm leaning towards 4 (note that's what's in the FAQ in the top post), because I think it add an interesting dynamic when used in games with Worshippers.

If this were part of an official expansion, I'd revisit. But as a fan card, I don't see a big issue.
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Kudasai

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Re: scolapasta's cards: Blessing
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2019, 08:01:36 pm »
+1

Inspired by this week's contest*, here's a one-shot reaction for Worshippers, an attempt at TfB, since standard TfB isn't possible with the deferred trashing:



(*) this is not my entry, since it's exclusively for Worshippers, though my actual entry is purposefully written to work with them (as it deals with all tokens that you can "spend"). I'll post that one here once the contest is over.



Notes / Questions:

In an earlier post I asked, "What's the general consensus on Landmarks, Event, Projects that involve mechanics that won't be in every game? The only official ones I can think of are Tomb, and Sewers, in games with no trashing."

I can now expand that question to all cards in general, since this card is useless without Worshippers.

One concern is that it could be used in attacks as a stop card.

Outside of specifying rules that say "only use with other cards that give Worshippers", I could make it part of a split pile, though I don't like the thought of only having 5 of them. (or possible only 5 of the top card)

How have others handled similar situations?

I think this would work best as an Event:

+1 Worshipper and during your next Clean-up, when you trash a card, you may gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.

Slightly more powerful so it may need to cost more, but it essentially does the same thing. Hopefully I'm not missing some function here that only works as a card.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 08:04:00 pm by Kudasai »
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Re: scolapasta's cards: Congregation / Blessing
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2019, 02:40:24 pm »
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I think this would work best as an Event:

+1 Worshipper and during your next Clean-up, when you trash a card, you may gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.

Slightly more powerful so it may need to cost more, but it essentially does the same thing. Hopefully I'm not missing some function here that only works as a card.

It's not so much that it loses functionality, but that it changes the purpose of the card, which is to provide TfB for any Worshippers. If it were this event, it always provides you with the Worshipper to use. Additionally, you couldn't get this now, use it later.

That said, I thought of another option:
6. Have card not be in the supply, and create another card that can gain them.

(this option still won't work for landmarks or some events, see next post)

So, let's see if that'll work. In the process, I'm trying something that I haven't seen before: make Blessing a pure Reserve card (making it stronger, as it doesn't now have to be in your hand):





Notes / Questions:

Does a pure Reserve card work? I think so as it seems to work the same as a pure Reaction would, without having to be in your hand. Congregation gains it directly to your Tavern mat, and then when it's called, it returns directly to its pile.

One thing I lose from the original design is the finite aspect - since they were trashed, then you could only "bless" 10 cards (assuming a game without trash gainers). I don't know if that was an essential part of the design, and having infinite is possible more fair for 3+ player games.

I put the "gain to your tavern mat" on Congregation, though I could have put "This is gained to your tavern mat" on Blessing instead. Barring other cards, I don't think this makes a difference.

I changed the wording from "when you remove a Worshipper token from its mat" to "When you trash a card during your Clean-up phase" (thanks for the idea, Kudasai). I thought this was cleaner - though it does make it stronger, as you could spend Worshippers with Sewers, and call 2 Blessings (one on each trashed card).

Congregation is priced at $3 in order to enable double Congregation opens. Is this too strong? Should it be $4 instead?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 04:08:28 pm by scolapasta »
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Re: scolapasta's cards: Worshipper Card-shaped things
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2019, 03:14:45 pm »
0

So, I've mentioned in some previous posts that I've been working on some Card-shaped things that care about Worshippers. Here they are:



How do you get Chalice? Welcome the new Archbishop:





Notes / Questions:

As discussed in the last several posts, Tithe and Mausoleum, are useless in games without Worshippers. While it felt important to try to fix that for a Kingdom card (and there were additional ways to do this), it feels less so for Events and Landmarks. Regardless, the FAQ will state "don't use in games without Worshippers".

Tithe: 1 Worshipper for $1 feels like the right ratio, similar to Borrow. I've also considered allowing you to do this for more than 1, but that seems too strong.

Mausoleum: This is Parish as a Landmark, so it's no longer tied to a card that can be split unevenly; i.e. everyone gets the opportunity for the same benefit. I'm unsure about this ratio, especially consider Tomb gives 1 VP per trashed card. (so in games with both, you would *always* want to spend your Worshippers) Should it be 1VP per Worshipper?

Convent: This is the parallel to Academy and Guildhall. The synergy is that it clears up a spot in your deck for your new Victory card.

Chalice / Archbishop: The idea here was to still allow Archbishop to gain VPs from Worshipper trashed cards (like with Bishop). It's more powerful in that it can get VPs for multiple cards, but it can be taken away from you. And by using Chalice, I could keep the text on this card simpler. I did have to drop to 1 VP and back down to 1 Worshipper to make this feel balanced.

Thematically, I like that the Archbishops are vying for who gets to be the "Pope" and have more power.

One possible change I'm still considering is to make the Chalice taking be conditional. Possible something like Swashbuckler, "if you have at least 2 Worshippers". Not sure if it's actually needed (would it help or hurt the balance), but I think it would fit the theme even more. :)


« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 04:09:33 pm by scolapasta »
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Kudasai

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Re: scolapasta's cards: Congregation / Blessing
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2019, 02:44:45 pm »
+1

Congregation is priced at $3 in order to enable double Congregation opens. Is this too strong? Should it be $4 instead?

Some cool stuff coming out of this thread! I wish I had more time on my hands to respond to it all, but for now I'll just comment on the new Congregation/Blessing cards.

I might be mistaken, but I believe a forced cantrip card trashers should be priced around $4.5. "+1 Card, +1 Action, Trash a card from your hand." Given that Congregation does not force you to trash a card, trashes at a time when your trashing window is potentially bigger, and it can set you up for an on-demand remodel, I think you're easily looking at a very good $5 cost. Trying it out at $6 might be a safe place to start, but it then in a way becomes stronger as you could "Bless" your Congregations into Provinces.

All in all I think this is a cool concept and it's a nice, clean remodel variant. The pure Reserve certainly seems to work too and adds a nice interaction with other trashers. Another reason I think this should cost $6 as reaching that price point needs to be carefully considered when trashing down.

Also, Congregation reads "+1 Action, +1 Card, ..." when it should be the other way around!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 02:48:15 pm by Kudasai »
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Re: scolapasta's cards
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2019, 02:57:36 pm »
+1

Okay, I've got time for another quick comment. This time on Archbishop/Chalice:

So I really like the addition of an Artifact, but I think taking it should have some kind of condition you need to meet or cost to it. All of the official Artifacts do. None of them simply give you the Artifact for playing a card. Given the theme of trashing it would be nice to see something along those lines.

Also, I'm curious what the no Copper in play clause is getting at? I get that it makes Archbishop harder to gain, but I'm just curious if there is a specific reason you choose this condition to meet.
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Re: scolapasta's cards
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2019, 03:08:18 pm »
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So I really like the addition of an Artifact, but I think taking it should have some kind of condition you need to meet or cost to it. All of the official Artifacts do. None of them simply give you the Artifact for playing a card.

Treasurer does.
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scolapasta

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Re: scolapasta's cards
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2019, 03:42:52 pm »
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So I really like the addition of an Artifact, but I think taking it should have some kind of condition you need to meet or cost to it. All of the official Artifacts do. None of them simply give you the Artifact for playing a card.

Treasurer does.

Well, the condition is that you choose that option, i.e. you don't necessarily take the Key every time you play it (though you can).
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Re: scolapasta's cards
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2019, 07:43:44 pm »
+1

Convent seems pretty useless, to be honest. By the time you're greening, you don't really care if your deck has junk in it. The crucial time to trash is in the beginning, way before you're buying Victory cards. The main edge cases would be Mill or if you want to get rid of some Curses.
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