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Author Topic: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)  (Read 13007 times)

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Swowl

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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2019, 03:06:34 am »

Off the top of my head:

2 Innocent Mason Lovers (Mod-confirmed at game start)
1 Cop
1 Doc
3 VTs
2 Mafia

Each night, mafia chooses to make the cop insane or doc naive.

I’d probably add at least one more option or make one of the goons something better.

I would play this.

Would it be public info that the mafia has the choice of insane/naive?
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ashersky

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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2019, 03:20:06 am »

Open setup, so all public.

I think you could game out all scenarios (mafia shoots lovers x% of the time, etc.) and whatnot, so blitz would force quicker decisions. 

Maybe a vengekill for first lynched scum?
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faust

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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2019, 04:58:48 am »

I'm generally not a big fan of setups where a bunch of roles are confirmed town. It takes away an important element of the game, which is convincing others that you are town as town. Open setups tend to have that sort of problem, and even if they are balanced, they're just sort of boring.
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silverspawn

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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2019, 10:25:39 am »

A really important principle about cops which seems to be overlooked here is that the thing which makes them worse is the possibility that they could be insane. Whether they're actually insane doesn't matter.

Say you're the cop and you know there's a 50% chance that you're insane. Now you cop someone and get, say, an innocent result. That actually tells you precisely zero about the person's alignment, whether you're actually sane or not. Because you don't know whether you're sane, so you can't trust the result. It's only once you get more than one result that they become useful: if two people both come back as innocent, you know they have the same alignment. Or if they come back with different results, you know their alignments are different. Once some player you have investigated flips, you know whether you're sane or not. At which you're effectively a cop, sane or insane again doesn't matter.

(You can also show this mathematically. For example, you can show that P(innocent result | person is town) = P(innocent result) which implies that both events are independent.)

So you definitely don't always want to make the cop insane as scum. Actually, if the cop knows you picked it, then it becomes useless. If they expect a 50% chance that you picked it, you get the worst possible situation for the cop; namely that their first result is useless. That would be the ideal case. If the game is repeated, that means you should choose the cop thing with some probability between 0% and 50%. If it's just one game, it becomes a pretty interesting WIFOM, where your optimal choice depends on what you think the cop thinks you do. If you think the cop thinks that you choose insane with 50%, you should not choose it, because it doesn't make any difference. If you think the cop thinks you definitely don't choose it, then you should choose it, because it'll make the cop falsely rely on their faulty results.

jotheonah

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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2019, 11:15:59 am »

I'm generally not a big fan of setups where a bunch of roles are confirmed town. It takes away an important element of the game, which is convincing others that you are town as town. Open setups tend to have that sort of problem, and even if they are balanced, they're just sort of boring.

This is the problem, especially when you're trying to work in the constraints of a small game. Essentially, in an open setup, any town PR has small letters (+ IC) tacked onto it, and IC is one of the strongest roles in the game. The idea of the setup was to get around that by heavily discouraging early claiming with role downsides.

Silver's post made me realize you could create a 50% insane cop without actually randomizing their role (though there's still an element of randomization built in). Consider:

Quote
Fruit Cop

Each night, you may investigate a player and be told they're either a Banana or an Apple. Each fruit corresponds with an alignment (town or scum) but which fruit corresponds with which alignment will be randomly determined at the start of the game.

So it's insane cop without the confusing terms "town" and "scum".

In that case we can drop the role randomization and the doctor entirely and run the setup as follows:

2 goons
1 fruit cop
2 mason lovers
4 VT

Now your mass claim only gives you a 1/3 to hit scum, scum gets a guaranteed double kill, and it takes the cop at least one night to "get online" (theoretically, they can investigate a mason and then they'll know the fruit code starting day 2, but scum just kills them night 2 so it's useless in a mass claim situation). Now, on day 2 you have either:

2 goons
1 fruit cop
3 VT

or

1 goon
1 fruit cop
4 VT

And, assuming town misses it's 1/4 to lynch, day 3 is either game over (2 goons, 2 VT) or mylo (1 goon, 3 VT)

So mass claim is bad, FTC is nonexistent, and the PRs are incentivized to play PRs in an interesting way.
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MiX

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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2019, 11:32:14 am »

I think the correct way to look at "Fruit cop" setup (with massclaim) is 4v2 but scum doesn't NK first 2 nights (or 6v2 with 2 ICs, really). So, what are the odds for 6v2? If it's in any way town sided then massclaiming here's amazing and thus it's a bad setup.

Another way to think about it is just there's 3 trigger ICs but 2 are lovers (and have a secret chat for fun), which sounds like too many ICs. Oh and the other IC has the uncanny ability of being able to IC someone else if they live. Regardless sounds town sided and, well, too many ICs.

And the doctor setup that ash described is essencially the same except there's scenarios where the doc picks correctly, which gives cop correct results and basically wins the game on the spot.
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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2019, 11:37:25 am »

I think the correct way to look at "Fruit cop" setup (with massclaim) is 4v2 but scum doesn't NK first 2 nights (or 6v2 with 2 ICs, really). So, what are the odds for 6v2? If it's in any way town sided then massclaiming here's amazing and thus it's a bad setup.

Another way to think about it is just there's 3 trigger ICs but 2 are lovers (and have a secret chat for fun), which sounds like too many ICs. Oh and the other IC has the uncanny ability of being able to IC someone else if they live. Regardless sounds town sided and, well, too many ICs.

And the doctor setup that ash described is essencially the same except there's scenarios where the doc picks correctly, which gives cop correct results and basically wins the game on the spot.

I think that assumes that the town gets onboard with the massclaim, including the two masons who are guaranteed to die if they do... You just have to make mass claim bad enough that it's not a slam dunk. If you're saying "all town has to do is NL twice and mass claim on day 1"... well good luck ever finding a town that will actually do either of those things.
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MiX

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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2019, 12:11:34 pm »

I think the correct way to look at "Fruit cop" setup (with massclaim) is 4v2 but scum doesn't NK first 2 nights (or 6v2 with 2 ICs, really). So, what are the odds for 6v2? If it's in any way town sided then massclaiming here's amazing and thus it's a bad setup.

Another way to think about it is just there's 3 trigger ICs but 2 are lovers (and have a secret chat for fun), which sounds like too many ICs. Oh and the other IC has the uncanny ability of being able to IC someone else if they live. Regardless sounds town sided and, well, too many ICs.

And the doctor setup that ash described is essencially the same except there's scenarios where the doc picks correctly, which gives cop correct results and basically wins the game on the spot.

I think that assumes that the town gets onboard with the massclaim, including the two masons who are guaranteed to die if they do... You just have to make mass claim bad enough that it's not a slam dunk. If you're saying "all town has to do is NL twice and mass claim on day 1"... well good luck ever finding a town that will actually do either of those things.

(Assuming this is about your fruit cop setup) even if you don't massclaim, you just put someone in L-1, wait for their claim, if they claim a PR wait for a counterclaim, otherwise you move along. In this case it's even better than a massclaim (scum can counterclaim the cop but that really doesn't help them). And even without all of this, it's still similar to having 2-3 trigger ICs, which sounds really good for town.

It's also a very small setup, so it's easy to break, even day 1. There will be something akin to a massclaim, mostly because scum can't truly afford to claim PR. I would add more VTs and scum (not sure how many) to this, then the fruit cop would actually be useful (they would live longer) and scum could claim cop too.
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Uncleeurope

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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2019, 01:23:57 pm »

An idea I have been experimenting with includes 2 cops, one of which is "insane" but not in the way that it inverts results, rather results are randomized. Essentially making them worse than a VT in some ways.

Therefor both cops have to determine if they are the one who is nuts or not. This has always been an intriguing way to lower the power level of investigative roles for me.

Another interesting nerf is making one player a hidden "miller" in that they are seen as guilty to the cop despite not knowing this themselves, but the cop knows that such a player exists. This makes guilty results slightly untrustworthy, but still useful.
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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #59 on: August 29, 2019, 01:45:46 pm »

Funny idea, you're definitely right that it's functionally identical to a cop which has 50% to be insane.

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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #60 on: August 29, 2019, 01:49:56 pm »

An idea I have been experimenting with includes 2 cops, one of which is "insane" but not in the way that it inverts results, rather results are randomized. Essentially making them worse than a VT in some ways.

Therefor both cops have to determine if they are the one who is nuts or not. This has always been an intriguing way to lower the power level of investigative roles for me.

Another interesting nerf is making one player a hidden "miller" in that they are seen as guilty to the cop despite not knowing this themselves, but the cop knows that such a player exists. This makes guilty results slightly untrustworthy, but still useful.


That's called random cop.

I think that's not a good idea because it's just unnecessarily random.

For example, if the two cops can coordinate, it might be good play to investigate the same player twice in a row. If you're lucky, you get two different results, and know that you're the random one. If you're unlucky...

There's also naive cops which return innocent all the time. I once ran a game here where cops were not guaranteed to be sane; I put in 2 naive cops and one sane cop. The sane cop was 2.71... and ended up living the longest and getting two different results the first two nights, so it was quite powerful. But without RNG.

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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #61 on: August 29, 2019, 07:30:07 pm »

At some point you need to question why you are doing any of this?  If you want a sufficiently weak cop, do you really want a cop at all?
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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #62 on: August 29, 2019, 09:53:00 pm »

This is the problem, especially when you're trying to work in the constraints of a small game. Essentially, in an open setup, any town PR has small letters (+ IC) tacked onto it, and IC is one of the strongest roles in the game.

Yes.  I prefer the Named Townie nickname but essentialy IC.
Many open setup designs focus on adding special mechanics to the game that affect the game as a whole instead of just one player getting to be Superman.  It's too birds with one stones, not only do you add fewer or no Named Townies, but there is less variance in joining for people who feel that it's more boring to play a game as a Vanilla Townie than it is to get ot use roles.  I finished losing Role Call mafia recently, that was like that. I also lost at Dance Mafia, which had a special mechanic letting any player pair off with another player.

Another option is smalltown setups, which are rather underutilized.  In a smalltown setup, all the roles are public and openly known, but the alignments of the players with the roles is random.  Of course, the balance can come out different every time, if the cop is mafia and you don't get any real cop results all game, that setup will be harder to win than the time when the cop is town.  But balance can be pretty overrated.  Was everyone's chance of winning between 30% and 70%?  I think people will have a pretty good time so long as it is.  You of course design the smalltown setup carefully to make sure each possible combination doesn't swing out too far - if the town vig is very important to how you think it works, give the doctor role a modifier that he can't protect his partner, or whatever, etc, that wasn't a perfect example because a vig role that can be scum raises many questions but you get the idea.  I think they are A. more work to design and B. people value being able to claim a setup is balanced more than it actually being balanced.  If I claim a smalltown setup is balanced, you will point out either the rerand of the game where the cop is scum or the cop is town must not be 50/50, it's obvious.  Then you'll go join some open setup the designer insist is perfect and is 80/20.
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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #63 on: August 30, 2019, 01:59:13 am »

I get the feeling that a lot of recent issues with the cop role, and the FTC problem, stems not from the roles or game design as much as the evolution of how we play the game and the roles.

I could be wrong, but there seems to be a general feeling that the power of the cop needs to tempered; that a cop catching scum is somehow unlucky, unfair, or sad, I guess for the scum team?  But originally, that was the point of the role.  I think when the game was created, there was a cop who could cop scum, basically had to claim it out loud, then died to the next night kill. FTC was born from that, where doctors just kept the cop alive, which of course sucked.  Then modifications came along like x-shots, etc. to curb that.

A cop catching scum, or town vig shooting scum, or a doctor protecting a victim, are planned-for actions.  You balance for them to happen sometimes.  I think we are trying to design away some sort of bad feelings that shouldn’t exist.

Not sure my main point, but it was a thought I had.
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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #64 on: August 30, 2019, 08:26:38 am »

Hmmmm. I guess I’m trying to design a cop that can catch scum but had to work for it. And the volunteer mechanic in unfortunate events was me trying to design a doctor who had to work for it.

I think early claiming a power role is the most boring way to use that role. Being Masons is fun until you claim, at which point it’s boring. But claiming is the most powerful thing masons can do because TWO SCUM have to counterclaim them.

I just want to design a setup where the incentive is for secret roles to stay secret and for people to use them in stealthy ways rather than clunky obvious boring ways that involve claims.
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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #65 on: August 30, 2019, 08:51:59 am »

I think the cop that can catch scum but has to work for it is a tracker. Or a psychologist. Or any investigate role that gives the accused an opportunity to talk their way out of it/ requires the investigator to corroborate their information somehow. Even asher's "shares your win-con" cop ability was good in this regard, since it allowed for third-party claims and kept some amount of doubt around.


That being said, if you're scum and you got caught by a cop, you also acted in such a way as to make that cop decide to investigate you. So some of that is on you.
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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #66 on: August 30, 2019, 10:44:46 am »

I am not sure how I feel about cop but would not begin a campaign against it until I have more fully convinced everyone on the planet that watcher is the worst thing ever.
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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #67 on: August 30, 2019, 09:21:01 pm »

I am not sure how I feel about cop but would not begin a campaign against it until I have more fully convinced everyone on the planet that watcher is the worst thing ever.

Even a scum watcher?
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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2019, 02:26:30 am »

I could be wrong, but there seems to be a general feeling that the power of the cop needs to tempered; that a cop catching scum is somehow unlucky, unfair, or sad, I guess for the scum team?
I think the main problem is that a Cop catching scum is kind of boring. A Cop catches scum, claims, then the next actions are scripted. Town lynches the scum, scum kills the Cop. Noone really has anything to do until the situation is resolved. And in the end, the other townies won't feel like they've accomplished anything. So I guess for me, Cop results are mainly sad for the rest of town and not for scum.
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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2019, 02:30:23 am »

I just want to design a setup where the incentive is for secret roles to stay secret and for people to use them in stealthy ways rather than clunky obvious boring ways that involve claims.
I think if you want that, you just shouldn't design an open setup. There are some ways to get around this kind of thing - like make two copies of the same role, then it's more feasible for scum to counterclaim - but options are limited. Claiming will always happen sooner in open games.
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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #70 on: August 31, 2019, 04:19:17 am »

I am not sure how I feel about cop but would not begin a campaign against it until I have more fully convinced everyone on the planet that watcher is the worst thing ever.

Even a scum watcher?
A scum watcher is totally fine
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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2019, 10:27:22 am »

The old Lincoln quote about pleasing all of the people all of the time seems highly germane when it comes to mafia setups.
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Re: How to Balance a Mafia Game (A Community Project I Hope!)
« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2019, 08:14:37 pm »

His quote was about fooling all the people all the time.
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