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#### naitchman

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##### Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« on: May 27, 2019, 01:21:41 pm »
+1

The Puzzle is simple. Create an infinite loop able to be executed in a normal game (10 kingdom cards, 2 events/ landmarks/ projects), without using a throne room variant card (Throne Room, King's Court, Disciple, Procession, etc.). You can choose whatever parameters you want (number of players, kingdom, etc.) but it should not rely on shuffle luck.

Note: I know of at least one answer.
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#### hhelibebcnofnena

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2019, 03:17:45 pm »
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Okay, I would like to see your answer. I believe that I have a logical proof detailing why any infinite loop which produces infinite points must need either King's Court or a third landscape. I started to type it out. Then I realized a flaw with the last step in my logic, which allowed a single answer, so I deleted it. Then I realized that my single answer didn't actually work, because it was contingent on an infinite Curse supply pile, which doesn't exist. I would rather not type it out again, but if you could show us your answer (with a spoiler box, of course), I would appreciate it, because if there is a flaw in my logic, I want to know where it is.
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#### Watno

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2019, 03:41:23 pm »
0

There is Buying 0-cost Forums with Goons and gaining Silvers instead.
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#### hhelibebcnofnena

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2019, 04:00:41 pm »
0

There is Buying 0-cost Forums with Goons and gaining Silvers instead.

Okay, That was way too simple. The flaw in my logic was that I didn't consider "when you buy" effects instead of "when you gain".

Now I have another answer: 5 Highways, Plan previously put on Forum, Fortress + Trader in hand, Tomb out, buy Forums and replace with Silvers to "trash" your Fortresses.
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#### Awaclus

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2019, 04:11:43 pm »
+3

Wait for your opponent to play an Attack and then reveal your Moat infinitely many times.
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#### hhelibebcnofnena

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2019, 04:21:07 pm »
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Wait for your opponent to play an Attack and then reveal your Moat infinitely many times.

I suppose that if you do that for long enough, your opponent might resign. And a win's a win. Also probably a blacklist, but who cares about that, right?

Also, I did not realize you could put a spoiler inside a spoiler.
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#### MiX

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2019, 04:22:00 pm »
0

Wait for your opponent to play an Attack and then reveal your Moat infinitely many times.

I suppose that if you do that for long enough, your opponent might resign. And a win's a win. Also probably a blacklist, but who cares about that, right?

If you do any of these long enough, everyone will resign, especially the infinite VP ones
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#### hhelibebcnofnena

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2019, 04:23:47 pm »
0

Wait for your opponent to play an Attack and then reveal your Moat infinitely many times.

I suppose that if you do that for long enough, your opponent might resign. And a win's a win. Also probably a blacklist, but who cares about that, right?

If you do any of these long enough, everyone will resign, especially the infinite VP ones

Yes, that's true as well. But you only need to do the points ones until you have an unbeatable lead, assuming your opponents don't have the right deck components to do it themselves.
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#### popsofctown

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2019, 02:19:05 am »
0

Play a six player game of Dominion at the pub, then Play a Festival, a Crossroads, then a Militia, having all other players discard down to 3.  Then player another Militia, this time they decide to reveal their 2 Horse Traders and 1 Beggar each and use their effects.  Then play a Masquerade, even though a Fool is the only card left in your deck.  Draw it, and pass it to the player to your left, and tell them to keep passing it along left, until it finds a player with cards in hand to join in the exchanging process.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 02:20:35 am by popsofctown »
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#### A Drowned Kernel

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2019, 09:46:59 am »
0

You have Capitalism, hand is Storyteller, Storyteller, Royal Seal, Rogue, Salvager, whatever. There's a Mandarin in the trash (you previously Salvaged it or something). Salvage the whatever card, play Royal Seal, play Rogue and gain Mandarin, topdecking the Mandarin then topdecking the played cards. Play Storyteller, drawing everything back. Salvager the Mandarin, play Royal Seal, play Rogue, gain Mandarin, topdeck everything, play the second Storyteller, keep repeating for infinite card draw and infinite +buys. If there's a draw other than storyteller that works for this then it's also infinite money.
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#### hhelibebcnofnena

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2019, 10:01:26 am »
0

You have Capitalism, hand is Storyteller, Storyteller, Royal Seal, Rogue, Salvager, whatever. There's a Mandarin in the trash (you previously Salvaged it or something). Salvage the whatever card, play Royal Seal, play Rogue and gain Mandarin, topdecking the Mandarin then topdecking the played cards. Play Storyteller, drawing everything back. Salvager the Mandarin, play Royal Seal, play Rogue, gain Mandarin, topdeck everything, play the second Storyteller, keep repeating for infinite card draw and infinite +buys. If there's a draw other than storyteller that works for this then it's also infinite money.

You have 6 cards in hand to start. Maybe you have a Hireling in play. But why do you need to start with the Salvager? Couldn't you just start with the Royal Seal? Also, Minion would work well for draw here instead of Storyteller, and you could use Sacrifice instead of Salvager.
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#### A Drowned Kernel

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2019, 10:12:58 am »
0

You have Capitalism, hand is Storyteller, Storyteller, Royal Seal, Rogue, Salvager, whatever. There's a Mandarin in the trash (you previously Salvaged it or something). Salvage the whatever card, play Royal Seal, play Rogue and gain Mandarin, topdecking the Mandarin then topdecking the played cards. Play Storyteller, drawing everything back. Salvager the Mandarin, play Royal Seal, play Rogue, gain Mandarin, topdeck everything, play the second Storyteller, keep repeating for infinite card draw and infinite +buys. If there's a draw other than storyteller that works for this then it's also infinite money.

You have 6 cards in hand to start. Maybe you have a Hireling in play. But why do you need to start with the Salvager? Couldn't you just start with the Royal Seal? Also, Minion would work well for draw here instead of Storyteller, and you could use Sacrifice instead of Salvager.

I thought of minion but don't think it works, you have to discard to draw and you need five cards for the loop to work. Seer with cost reduction (let's say canal) would work if you had like 4 of them.
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#### hhelibebcnofnena

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2019, 11:02:26 am »
0

You have Capitalism, hand is Storyteller, Storyteller, Royal Seal, Rogue, Salvager, whatever. There's a Mandarin in the trash (you previously Salvaged it or something). Salvage the whatever card, play Royal Seal, play Rogue and gain Mandarin, topdecking the Mandarin then topdecking the played cards. Play Storyteller, drawing everything back. Salvager the Mandarin, play Royal Seal, play Rogue, gain Mandarin, topdeck everything, play the second Storyteller, keep repeating for infinite card draw and infinite +buys. If there's a draw other than storyteller that works for this then it's also infinite money.

You have 6 cards in hand to start. Maybe you have a Hireling in play. But why do you need to start with the Salvager? Couldn't you just start with the Royal Seal? Also, Minion would work well for draw here instead of Storyteller, and you could use Sacrifice instead of Salvager.

I thought of minion but don't think it works, you have to discard to draw and you need five cards for the loop to work. Seer with cost reduction (let's say canal) would work if you had like 4 of them.

That's why I suggested Sacrifice. Put the other Minion on the bottom when gaining Mandarin, when you trash the Mandarin with Sacrifice you can draw it again.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 12:24:18 pm by hhelibebcnofnena »
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#### GendoIkari

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2019, 04:02:45 pm »
0

Wait for your opponent to play an Attack and then reveal your Moat infinitely many times.

TIL you can put spoilers inside of spoilers.
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#### hhelibebcnofnena

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2019, 04:07:58 pm »
+2

Wait for your opponent to play an Attack and then reveal your Moat infinitely many times.

TIL you can put spoilers inside of spoilers.

TIL what TIL stands for.
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#### hhelibebcnofnena

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2019, 04:22:32 pm »
0

You have Capitalism, hand is Storyteller, Storyteller, Royal Seal, Rogue, Salvager, whatever. There's a Mandarin in the trash (you previously Salvaged it or something). Salvage the whatever card, play Royal Seal, play Rogue and gain Mandarin, topdecking the Mandarin then topdecking the played cards. Play Storyteller, drawing everything back. Salvager the Mandarin, play Royal Seal, play Rogue, gain Mandarin, topdeck everything, play the second Storyteller, keep repeating for infinite card draw and infinite +buys. If there's a draw other than storyteller that works for this then it's also infinite money.

You have 6 cards in hand to start. Maybe you have a Hireling in play. But why do you need to start with the Salvager? Couldn't you just start with the Royal Seal? Also, Minion would work well for draw here instead of Storyteller, and you could use Sacrifice instead of Salvager.

I thought of minion but don't think it works, you have to discard to draw and you need five cards for the loop to work. Seer with cost reduction (let's say canal) would work if you had like 4 of them.

That's why I suggested Sacrifice. Put the other Minion on the bottom when gaining Mandarin, when you trash the Mandarin with Sacrifice you can draw it again.

And you can put out Tomb for infinite points.

I should be a lot more thorough if I try to use an exhaustive method to rule out possibilities. I kept thinking "oh, the only way to get things out of play is Bonfire!" And I completely forgot about when you buy effects (spoiler for a different solution)!
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#### naitchman

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2019, 11:05:24 pm »
0

A drowned kernel got a similar answer to what I was thinking. The loop should actually do something (so infinite moats don't count), and it must actually be infinite (so gaining silvers doesn't count since the silvers will run out). There are a couple variations on the same idea all legitimate.

My one was capitalism is bought. Traveling Fair is an event. Hand is watchtower, rogue, rogue, steward, steward. Mandarin in trash.
During buy phase, play steward and draw 2 cards, play rogue and gain mandarin, trash it with watchtower, put rogue and steward on deck. Repeat. Use Travelling Fair to buy the whole supply.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 11:06:54 pm by naitchman »
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#### hhelibebcnofnena

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2019, 11:30:09 pm »
0

and it must actually be infinite (so gaining silvers doesn't count since the silvers will run out).

I don't know if you're referring to Watno's answer in the spoiler, but if you are, that one is still valid because it's contingent on buying Forums, not gaining Silvers. The Silver gaining is just a by-product of reacting with Trader to prevent the Forums from running out.
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#### hhelibebcnofnena

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2019, 11:41:40 pm »
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It seems like all the possible answers involve either the card Mandarin or when you buy effects. Now that I say that, somebody will come along with some other valid answer that doesn't involve either of those things.
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#### naitchman

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2019, 12:22:12 am »
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and it must actually be infinite (so gaining silvers doesn't count since the silvers will run out).

I don't know if you're referring to Watno's answer in the spoiler, but if you are, that one is still valid because it's contingent on buying Forums, not gaining Silvers. The Silver gaining is just a by-product of reacting with Trader to prevent the Forums from running out.

I didn't understand it before. Now I get it.
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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2019, 04:01:24 pm »
0

It seems like all the possible answers involve either the card Mandarin or when you buy effects. Now that I say that, somebody will come along with some other valid answer that doesn't involve either of those things.
There's a good reason for this: it's hard to take cards out of play but that card does it. If you never do that it's hard to go infinite, because eventually all cards will be in play and you won't have any left to play.

About the when you buy effects, almost always you're spending a limited resource which you'll eventually run out of. Note that it's not only when you buy effects but specifically buying Forum which on net costs zero of those resources, that's why it specifically enables infinity. Using Highway, Trader and Goons overcomes other resource limitations and adds a reward, those resources being money cost and the number of Forum copies left in the pile. That is: the named card is the fundamentally broken part, the rest are ancillary brokennesses which make use of and/or facilitate the fundamental brokenness.

I think Empires was the first expansion to introduce infinite loops to Dominion—that is, not only were no infinite loops known, I think there provably weren't any (but I haven't proven this). So if I'm right, any solution has to use at least one card or landscape from Empires or later.
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#### bitwise

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##### Re: Infinite Loop Without Throne Room Variant
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2019, 12:18:57 am »
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It is certainly possible with Renaissance but without Empires or Nocturne[/s (EDIT: I forgot a certain thing was actually in Empires, oops)]:
Advance, Travelling Fair, Fortress in hand, and at least one Priest played.

Without Renaissance as well, I'm not sure. I feel like Fortress is a very good candidate for infinite nonsense, but I don't know if there's enough to make that work.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 12:25:20 am by bitwise »
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