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Author Topic: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet  (Read 927 times)

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werothegreat

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Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« on: May 09, 2019, 11:32:48 am »
0


Fleet!

* Is it worth it?
* If it is, when should you get it?
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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2019, 01:34:28 pm »
+2

1. Yeah duh
2. When you would otherwise buy your first Duchy
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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2019, 03:57:25 pm »
0

1. Yeah duh
2. When you would otherwise buy your first Duchy

Is that literally all there is to this?
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Awaclus

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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2019, 05:16:36 pm »
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1. Yeah duh
2. When you would otherwise buy your first Duchy

Is that literally all there is to this?

No, but those are the answers to the questions.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2019, 05:49:52 pm »
+1

1. Yeah duh
2. When you would otherwise buy your first Duchy

Is that literally all there is to this?

No, but those are the answers to the questions.

Okay, but Fleet is a Project. Those two questions basically encompass all of the strategy involved. Is there anything else we have to know about playing with Fleet besides "buy it instead of your first Duchy"?
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Awaclus

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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2019, 05:53:33 pm »
+1

Is there anything else we have to know about playing with Fleet besides "buy it instead of your first Duchy"?

Yes, it makes a pretty big difference for PPR considerations.
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RTT

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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2019, 02:31:11 am »
+1

fleet you often buy when you are ahead as insurance against low piles. its something like green but doesnt make your deck worse yet.
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popsofctown

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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2019, 07:44:31 pm »
0

It would have been a more interesting card if it costed 8 and gave +buy on the bonus turn or something. 

The algorithm for it is pretty straightforward :(
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LastFootnote

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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2019, 10:49:50 am »
0

It would have been a more interesting card if it costed 8 and gave +buy on the bonus turn or something. 

The algorithm for it is pretty straightforward :(

Fleet was $8 for a while. In games with many players, people would not buy it at $8. At $5 it was a real question whether you'd have time to buy it. As a result, it's often automatic in 2-player games. That's a sacrifice I'd make again in a heartbeat, if it were my decision (which it isn't and wasn't).
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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2019, 11:26:36 am »
0

It would have been a more interesting card if it costed 8 and gave +buy on the bonus turn or something. 

The algorithm for it is pretty straightforward :(

At $5 it was a real question whether you'd have time to buy it.

I've played a four player game or two where I never gained Duchy because at 3 Provinces per player it doesn't always come to that point, and from a strong position Gold can "secure the win" more consistently.  So I could see my gain% of Fleet falling below 100% for that reason.

But, in multiplayer, is it truly possible to buy a Duchy before a Fleet?  I'm guessing still no, I can't imagine you'd not have "time to buy Fleet" but have time to buy Duchy.  The obvious exception would be if the Duchies are going to pile out but that's a 4p phenomenon, not a 3p one, and head to head picking a format to favor with the design it seems 2p deserves the design considerations over 4p.

That reduces it to a Landmark/Baker-global-effect more so than a Project, approximating out to something like, "When each player buys his or her first Duchy this game he puts it on the Island Mat".  Which might subtly influence buy sequencing for engines, probably, but I think you'd have to be pretty advanced, which you know hey this doesn't take up a kingdom slot and is not in the first 7 expansions so the boxes are checked for being the right place for that level of subtlety.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 11:30:45 am by popsofctown »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2019, 01:14:26 pm »
+2

It would have been a more interesting card if it costed 8 and gave +buy on the bonus turn or something. 

The algorithm for it is pretty straightforward :(

At $5 it was a real question whether you'd have time to buy it.

I've played a four player game or two where I never gained Duchy because at 3 Provinces per player it doesn't always come to that point, and from a strong position Gold can "secure the win" more consistently.  So I could see my gain% of Fleet falling below 100% for that reason.

But, in multiplayer, is it truly possible to buy a Duchy before a Fleet?  I'm guessing still no, I can't imagine you'd not have "time to buy Fleet" but have time to buy Duchy.  The obvious exception would be if the Duchies are going to pile out but that's a 4p phenomenon, not a 3p one, and head to head picking a format to favor with the design it seems 2p deserves the design considerations over 4p.

That reduces it to a Landmark/Baker-global-effect more so than a Project, approximating out to something like, "When each player buys his or her first Duchy this game he puts it on the Island Mat".  Which might subtly influence buy sequencing for engines, probably, but I think you'd have to be pretty advanced, which you know hey this doesn't take up a kingdom slot and is not in the first 7 expansions so the boxes are checked for being the right place for that level of subtlety.

Perhaps "have time to buy it" was the wrong way to word that.

First let me address your comment about 2-player deserving the design considerations over 4-player. Too bad! That's not the way it is and it's probably never going to be that way. Donald X. plays most of his Dominion test games with 4 or 5 players. I play most of mine with 3 or 4 players. Some other testers play primarily 2-player games, but that's not most games. We do take into account 2-player games for sure, and some cards might die because they suck too much in 2-player games or 4-player games, but 2-player doesn't get "design priority" over 4-player. That's been my perception. The good news is that for most things it doesn't matter. Most stuff plays well at different player counts. And a Project takes up less space than a Kingdom card, in a sense. So I think it's fine that this one Project is usually an automatic pickup in 2-player games.

As for actually buying it in multiplayer games, you seem to be assuming that you'll always be able to get a Duchy on your Fleet turn. That has not been my experience. Buying Fleet is a risk, and I have been burned before. I have regretted those turns where my Fleet was only worth 1 VP, wishing I'd had that Duchy. I think part of this is that you can't often build those mega engines in 4-player games. Part of it is that most players aren't experts and their turns dud more often. Non-experts get to have fun too. For them an $8 Fleet would never be worth it. At $5 it's a question.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2019, 02:08:35 pm »
0

It would have been a more interesting card if it costed 8 and gave +buy on the bonus turn or something. 

The algorithm for it is pretty straightforward :(

What's the algorithm? And also, I'm not getting why Fleet plays out much differently in 2 player vs 4 player games?
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2019, 02:21:02 pm »
0

What's the algorithm? And also, I'm not getting why Fleet plays out much differently in 2 player vs 4 player games?

In 4 player games, the VP piles are more likely to run if multiple people are contesting them. So, if you buy Fleet instead of a Duchy for example, you might not actually be able to buy a Duchy on your Fleet turn if the Duchy pile runs out by then.
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Donald X.

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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2019, 03:29:26 pm »
+2

I mostly play with 3 or 4. There have been time periods where I got in more 2- or 5-player games. I'd rather not play with 5, but it's hard turning someone away (I'm sure not turning myself away). At 6 I can turn 3 people away.

Fleet was iffy, but some people liked it and it was novel. Some games it doesn't change much, and well as LF said I am way more forgiving there on landscapes.
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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2019, 06:28:15 pm »
0

It would have been a more interesting card if it costed 8 and gave +buy on the bonus turn or something. 

The algorithm for it is pretty straightforward :(

At $5 it was a real question whether you'd have time to buy it.

I've played a four player game or two where I never gained Duchy because at 3 Provinces per player it doesn't always come to that point, and from a strong position Gold can "secure the win" more consistently.  So I could see my gain% of Fleet falling below 100% for that reason.

But, in multiplayer, is it truly possible to buy a Duchy before a Fleet?  I'm guessing still no, I can't imagine you'd not have "time to buy Fleet" but have time to buy Duchy.  The obvious exception would be if the Duchies are going to pile out but that's a 4p phenomenon, not a 3p one, and head to head picking a format to favor with the design it seems 2p deserves the design considerations over 4p.

That reduces it to a Landmark/Baker-global-effect more so than a Project, approximating out to something like, "When each player buys his or her first Duchy this game he puts it on the Island Mat".  Which might subtly influence buy sequencing for engines, probably, but I think you'd have to be pretty advanced, which you know hey this doesn't take up a kingdom slot and is not in the first 7 expansions so the boxes are checked for being the right place for that level of subtlety.

Perhaps "have time to buy it" was the wrong way to word that.

First let me address your comment about 2-player deserving the design considerations over 4-player. Too bad! That's not the way it is and it's probably never going to be that way. Donald X. plays most of his Dominion test games with 4 or 5 players. I play most of mine with 3 or 4 players. Some other testers play primarily 2-player games, but that's not most games. We do take into account 2-player games for sure, and some cards might die because they suck too much in 2-player games or 4-player games, but 2-player doesn't get "design priority" over 4-player. That's been my perception. The good news is that for most things it doesn't matter. Most stuff plays well at different player counts. And a Project takes up less space than a Kingdom card, in a sense. So I think it's fine that this one Project is usually an automatic pickup in 2-player games.

As for actually buying it in multiplayer games, you seem to be assuming that you'll always be able to get a Duchy on your Fleet turn. That has not been my experience. Buying Fleet is a risk, and I have been burned before. I have regretted those turns where my Fleet was only worth 1 VP, wishing I'd had that Duchy. I think part of this is that you can't often build those mega engines in 4-player games. Part of it is that most players aren't experts and their turns dud more often. Non-experts get to have fun too. For them an $8 Fleet would never be worth it. At $5 it's a question.

I mistakenly thought the game was being designed for 3>2>4.  If it's 4>5>3>2 then 5$ Fleet definitely makes all the sense.
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Donald X.

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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2019, 01:01:07 pm »
+2

I mistakenly thought the game was being designed for 3>2>4.  If it's 4>5>3>2 then 5$ Fleet definitely makes all the sense.
The goal has always been to support 2-4, and to get there I aim for the best balance at 3. It's more 3-4-2-5. I don't care about 6 other than including the components.

But as LF says, if a card is a specific problem for 2 players, that can kill it.
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Re: Let's Discuss Renaissance Projects: Fleet
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2019, 12:02:06 am »
+1

A few times I buy Fleet at different times than strictly as a duchy replacement:
1. Extend my 3-pile options. For instance, I Stonemasoned two provinces into Border villages/draw, bought Fleet & cleared out 3 Smasons for the third pile, and then turned the Bv into 4 duchies during the Fleet turn and bought a Province. Fleet can let you bank the value of green cards as something game ending (e.g. remodel a Colony into a Plat) and use it again in the Fleet turn it back into VP after triggering 3 piles (Remodel Plat back to colony).

2. Build out for a long shot green destruction megaturn. The most obvious here is mass play of Swindler. If I am down 4 Prov, but have Kc/Swindler, I can get a lot of mileage out of emptying the prov pile and then trashing provs into nothing. Similar options can occur with Knights or Giants and if it is a last ditch option, it often is worth skipping a province to be sure to have another turn to trash green. Playing 9 Swindlers with an empty province pile is just brutal and easily worth multiple colonies to get a clean turn at green killing.

3. Be sure to spike something in the deck for a bunch of points without having to carry it in the deck. The obvious case here is Fairgrounds, being able to leave Curse/Estate in the supply while gunning for 8 VP Fairgrounds is worth a lot more than a duchy and hence I often buy it at any point I am unable to buy a Fairground. Likewise, mass gaining Caches for a few Triumph finds Fleet to be worth more than a province often. Bishop likewise can often spike a lot of VP on the Fleet turn and make securing Fleet competitive with buying Provs or Colonies. Likewise, being able to overdraw and use a bunch of newly gained Transmutes can power up Vineyards while destroying the deck. If you can score huge points by sacrificing your deck, Fleet can easily be worth more than a colony.

On the flip side, I have a had a few games where Duchy is better than Fleet. Shepherd/Xroads was pretty obvious, but I have gone for duchy first with Crop Rotation and a few other green enabled options.

I figure you will go right about 85% of the time in two player with the "buy Fleet before your first duchy" option, but there is a nice minority of games where you either want Fleet a lot more than that or where by the time you see Fleet there are no duchies left (Tournament, for instance, makes Fleet often turn into a booby prize that is lucky to generate 2 VP).
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