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Author Topic: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Town and Survivor win!)  (Read 154868 times)

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mcmcsalot

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #250 on: June 05, 2019, 09:53:15 am »

Anyone else having the "not secure" problem on f.ds, btw?  Like the https thing is not working.

Yes I am also having this problem. I’ll see if I can catch theory later today.
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Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

jotheonah

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #251 on: June 05, 2019, 09:54:55 am »

joth, do you still like your vote on mix?

Yes:

I cannot get into this game guys. Try as I might.

That's OK. It means I won't feel guilty about...

vote: jotheonah

Not expecting to change my vote from this.

Explain this and I will sheep.


This post is over-the-top scummy. MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]". Why even ask for the explanation? So you have a flimsy pretense for your scummy vote?

vote: MiX
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"I know old meta, and joth is useless day 1 but awesome town day 3 and on." --Teproc

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mcmcsalot

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #252 on: June 05, 2019, 09:58:53 am »

I do think MiX is playing much more loosey goosey then I have seen him in the past but I’m not sure I care to lynch him now because I think I have a good ability to read him.

I actually think I’m going to join him vote: efhw

I was serious about the voting block. And am sad that it did not succeed in working together. I think her dismissal of it is interesting.
Logged
Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

MiX

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #253 on: June 05, 2019, 10:06:51 am »

MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.
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jotheonah

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #254 on: June 05, 2019, 10:18:16 am »

MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.

Really just taking you at your word, man. You could have said "Explain and maybe I'll sheep". Words mean things.
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"I know old meta, and joth is useless day 1 but awesome town day 3 and on." --Teproc

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MiX

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #255 on: June 05, 2019, 10:37:20 am »

MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.

Really just taking you at your word, man. You could have said "Explain and maybe I'll sheep". Words mean things.

There's no reason for me to follow through my word, helps no one but maybe my townieness.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #256 on: June 05, 2019, 10:47:50 am »

vote: joth
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #257 on: June 05, 2019, 10:54:23 am »

MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.

Really just taking you at your word, man. You could have said "Explain and maybe I'll sheep". Words mean things.

There's no reason for me to follow through my word, helps no one but maybe my townieness.

And you displaying a lack of towniness if you are town hurts town. Like a lot. I think people often overestimate their duty to find scum as town and underestimate their duty to convince others of their towniness.
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Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

MiX

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #258 on: June 05, 2019, 11:00:34 am »

MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.

Really just taking you at your word, man. You could have said "Explain and maybe I'll sheep". Words mean things.

There's no reason for me to follow through my word, helps no one but maybe my townieness.

And you displaying a lack of towniness if you are town hurts town. Like a lot. I think people often overestimate their duty to find scum as town and underestimate their duty to convince others of their towniness.

If you read my past town game you'll see me doing the opposite: almost disregarding scumhunting to look towny. Needless to say it wasn't very successful (although we did win...), regardless, I think there's a time to throw that away, at least at first: I really wanted to see how pubby reacted to it but I guess joth stole the reaction.
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EFHW

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #259 on: June 05, 2019, 11:08:43 am »

I do think MiX is playing much more loosey goosey then I have seen him in the past but I’m not sure I care to lynch him now because I think I have a good ability to read him.

I actually think I’m going to join him vote: efhw

I was serious about the voting block. And am sad that it did not succeed in working together. I think her dismissal of it is interesting.
I didn't mean to dismiss your effort. I thought it was RVS. How did you imagine it working?
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silverspawn

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #260 on: June 05, 2019, 11:11:55 am »

There's no reason for me to follow through my word
?
!
vote: MiX

jotheonah

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #261 on: June 05, 2019, 11:12:06 am »

MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.

Really just taking you at your word, man. You could have said "Explain and maybe I'll sheep". Words mean things.

There's no reason for me to follow through my word, helps no one but maybe my townieness.

And you displaying a lack of towniness if you are town hurts town. Like a lot. I think people often overestimate their duty to find scum as town and underestimate their duty to convince others of their towniness.

If you read my past town game you'll see me doing the opposite: almost disregarding scumhunting to look towny. Needless to say it wasn't very successful (although we did win...), regardless, I think there's a time to throw that away, at least at first: I really wanted to see how pubby reacted to it but I guess joth stole the reaction.

Clearly that town is 'when you have a largeish wagon on you'  ::)
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"I know old meta, and joth is useless day 1 but awesome town day 3 and on." --Teproc

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MiX

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #262 on: June 05, 2019, 11:17:18 am »

Clearly that town is 'when you have a largeish wagon on you'  ::)

Indeed! How did you figure that out?  :P

There's no reason for me to follow through my word
?
!
vote: MiX

Beautiful.
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silverspawn

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #263 on: June 05, 2019, 11:18:23 am »

MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.

Really just taking you at your word, man. You could have said "Explain and maybe I'll sheep". Words mean things.

There's no reason for me to follow through my word, helps no one but maybe my townieness.

And you displaying a lack of towniness if you are town hurts town. Like a lot. I think people often overestimate their duty to find scum as town and underestimate their duty to convince others of their towniness.

The argument is fallacious. It might indeed be more important to not get lynched if you're town than it is to scumhunt. But these are not two separate disciplines that you can independently invest time into, and the more time invest the better you do at them.

I think a much better way to look at it is this: the remaining player base is trying to figure out your alignment. If they're doing it right, then they will always consider your meta, i.e. there shouldn't be anyone who is generically less scummy and less likely to be lynched; everyone has the same probability of being scum, what we need is information that distinguishes your scum play from your normal play.

So if you're town and trying to play towny, well, that's the same thing you're doing as scum, so we don't have anything that distinguishes between the two. That doesn't mean it can't work in individual games, but it ought not to help you in expectation. On the other hand, if you're actually scumhunting, then that does distinguish between town!you and scum!you, because scum!you doesn't scumhunt, they're only pretending to scumhunt.

I.e.: if you focus on scumhunting, that ought to be the better strategy wrt not getting lynched.

silverspawn

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #264 on: June 05, 2019, 11:18:49 am »

Beautiful.

Just to clarify, you said that you have no reason to be honest as town and I policy voted you.

MiX

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #265 on: June 05, 2019, 11:25:51 am »

Beautiful.

Just to clarify, you said that you have no reason to be honest as town and I policy voted you.

Why do you think this helps town? Is this a policy vote or expressing a will to policy lynch? Correct me if they're the same.
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pingpongsam

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #266 on: June 05, 2019, 11:45:39 am »

It's interesting how similar MiX plays to me. Here he is arguing the policing, man have I been there so many times. It's sobering to see how my behavior looks from a third person vantage point.
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jotheonah

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #267 on: June 05, 2019, 11:46:30 am »

MiX said a thing, got heat for that thing, then immediately backed off of it (I wasn't really gonna do it) while still defending it (I was saying it to get info).

It's a reaction that makes me feel fine about my vote.
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"I know old meta, and joth is useless day 1 but awesome town day 3 and on." --Teproc

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mcmcsalot

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #268 on: June 05, 2019, 11:53:55 am »

Silver I actually disagree strongly. I don’t mean to say your job to convince others of your towniness means you should try to look like town or try to play like town. I think those are very vague statements. I think you should do pro-town things, scum hunting is one of them but I don’t think it is the only pro-town behavior one can exhibit. Secondly I think scum hunting can be done in a non pro-town way and that is what I’m saying is bad. Scum hunting purely for the sake of finding scum is often not as valuable as being an incredibly pro-town player.

In this scenario scum “also trying to look like town” would result in scum actually helping town not just also trying to scumhunt in a non scummy seeming way.
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Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

Debatepro

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #269 on: June 05, 2019, 11:56:29 am »

What is the difference between sheeping and voting on an existing wagon without explanation?
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #270 on: June 05, 2019, 11:56:50 am »

I do think MiX is playing much more loosey goosey then I have seen him in the past but I’m not sure I care to lynch him now because I think I have a good ability to read him.

I actually think I’m going to join him vote: efhw

I was serious about the voting block. And am sad that it did not succeed in working together. I think her dismissal of it is interesting.
I didn't mean to dismiss your effort. I thought it was RVS. How did you imagine it working?

Exactly as proposed, a block of players voting together for day 1. I had slight town reads of adk and pps right off the bat, there are enough scum in the game taking two people off my lynch list didn’t seem too detrimental, and I thought it’s continued use and seriousness would actually provide some pretty interesting interaction that could have been examined later on. Sadly it fell apart very quickly and I don’t think there is another way to create it that isn’t influenced by scum.
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Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

Debatepro

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #271 on: June 05, 2019, 11:57:43 am »

Scum hunting purely for the sake of finding scum is often not as valuable as being an incredibly pro-town player.

Example?
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Debatepro

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #272 on: June 05, 2019, 11:58:28 am »

Secondly I think scum hunting can be done in a non pro-town way and that is what I’m saying is bad.

Example?

Wrong quote for question: Corrected.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #273 on: June 05, 2019, 12:00:03 pm »

What is the difference between sheeping and voting on an existing wagon without explanation?

I think wheeling has gotten vaguer over time to be somewhat similar but.

Sheeping is meant to be following up on a vote with a vote of your own purely because you think the first player who voted is town or because you want to vote for the exact same reasons the first person stated.

Voting without an explanation could be a tactful vote whilst hiding your reasons or a lazy vote that doesn’t really have a reason.
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Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

mcmcsalot

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #274 on: June 05, 2019, 12:06:46 pm »

Secondly I think scum hunting can be done in a non pro-town way and that is what I’m saying is bad.

Example?

Wrong quote for question: Corrected.

An over the top example would be as town fake claiming or lying about a result because you expect scum to react a certain way to the false result and thus will try to catch scum. This is negative town utility because lying as town almost always causes more confusion and trouble for town. It may have been successful for the player enacting the ruse to find scum but now the rest of town has reason not to trust that player and they may not be able to convince anyone of what they have discovered.

A more subtle example is voting “purely for reactions or pressure”. There are times that voting to pressure a player to response or react is good because it lets us know more about that player but because the explanation of “it was just a pressure vote” is a reasonable town response scum could manipulate that and make what would otherwise be a scummy vote look towny after he fact by claiming it was just for reactions.

Overall there are ways of scumhunting that while valid and occasionally very effective but are not in and of themselves pro-town.
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Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)
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