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Author Topic: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Town and Survivor win!)  (Read 154812 times)

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2.71828.....

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #175 on: June 04, 2019, 12:58:57 pm »

All this talk about plans.

*Insert Joker meme about introducing anarchy*
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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #176 on: June 04, 2019, 01:00:23 pm »

gkrieg's vote on me for the plan thing is super lazy.

Basically, all {ashersky,plan} posts are lazy and need to stop.  It was a meta thing like a year and a half ago.  It's personally exhausting and annoying at this point.

Yes, I still think about things and occasionally have plan-like ideas.  No, it is not an important thing anymore.

I mean, if anything, I definitely plan more as scum anyway.

I read this and then immediately went digging for this:

Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I don’t have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.

Do Ash plans have zero bearing on your alignment, or do you do them more often as skum?

I hate phone posting. Lost my response.

Gist: both, there is a difference between “having a plan” and planning. Ask my scum partners from forever—I plan. So should you, btw.

The plan that gkrieg talks about is the public one I was forced to produce every game for years when I was active and one of the “best” players here. It became a farce.

You want a “plan”?  I can make one up. If you want my planning, check out our scum QT.  I already told you what I think you should do if you got PGO.

Plan being the aside point - I was more fixated on the contradictions between the two posts.

I am sure if I search hard enough I can find you contradict yourself in two different mafia games.

Vote: Datswan
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gkrieg13

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #177 on: June 04, 2019, 01:04:02 pm »

1) Skum - Know what they picked/have. They know how many other roles outside of the template one's exist. They don't know who is what role.

The issue is that some scum don't have this info, and scum doesn't know their traitor, and traitor potentially doesn't know who mafia is, and setup talk provides a way for them to signal to each other.
I don't agree with this. Let them signal. Everyone is listening. We want everyone to talk.

As someone who has been lynched for extremely obvious signaling, I agree with this here. I think it is much less likely they successfully signal and no one from town catches it than they out themselves and we can lynch them.

We can also continue to help the Traitor know how they should play and what we expect of him, that's always nice.

Vote: gkrieg

But you don't think EFWH is scummy for saying essentially the same thing?
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jotheonah

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #178 on: June 04, 2019, 01:06:00 pm »

I cannot get into this game guys. Try as I might.

One thing I'm thinking about is mcmc's voting bloc. How does scum react to this idea (assuming, for the purposes of argument that it was a serious plan)? Do they want to be part of the bloc so they can steer it? Do they want to avoid it so their vote is less constrained?

I found MiX's reaction to the bloc -- really wanting to get in and even voting for himself to prove his loyalty -- to be the only interesting reaction. I think it might be scummy.

I know most of us saw that whole thing as a little silly, but I can see scum seeing it as a little scary and feeling the need to react to it, or become part of it, as quickly as possible.

I guess that's enough for me to vote: MiX
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MiX

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #179 on: June 04, 2019, 01:09:02 pm »

1) Skum - Know what they picked/have. They know how many other roles outside of the template one's exist. They don't know who is what role.

The issue is that some scum don't have this info, and scum doesn't know their traitor, and traitor potentially doesn't know who mafia is, and setup talk provides a way for them to signal to each other.
I don't agree with this. Let them signal. Everyone is listening. We want everyone to talk.

As someone who has been lynched for extremely obvious signaling, I agree with this here. I think it is much less likely they successfully signal and no one from town catches it than they out themselves and we can lynch them.

We can also continue to help the Traitor know how they should play and what we expect of him, that's always nice.

Vote: gkrieg

But you don't think EFWH is scummy for saying essentially the same thing?

I do.
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MiX

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #180 on: June 04, 2019, 01:15:45 pm »

I cannot get into this game guys. Try as I might.

One thing I'm thinking about is mcmc's voting bloc. How does scum react to this idea (assuming, for the purposes of argument that it was a serious plan)? Do they want to be part of the bloc so they can steer it? Do they want to avoid it so their vote is less constrained?

I found MiX's reaction to the bloc -- really wanting to get in and even voting for himself to prove his loyalty -- to be the only interesting reaction. I think it might be scummy.

I know most of us saw that whole thing as a little silly, but I can see scum seeing it as a little scary and feeling the need to react to it, or become part of it, as quickly as possible.

I guess that's enough for me to vote: MiX

What makes you think scum would react more to the block than town? As scum, as much as they know, there's a traitor in there, why would they be scared?
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pingpongsam

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #181 on: June 04, 2019, 01:21:20 pm »

Is tunneling on the notion of a traitor in the same vein as tunneling on finding the SK (i.e. scumtell)?
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Glooble

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #182 on: June 04, 2019, 01:40:35 pm »

Is tunneling on the notion of a traitor in the same vein as tunneling on finding the SK (i.e. scumtell)?

I would think not. Scum actually wants the SK lynched. They absolutely do not want the traitor lynched. Big difference.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #183 on: June 04, 2019, 01:41:07 pm »

I cannot get into this game guys. Try as I might.

One thing I'm thinking about is mcmc's voting bloc. How does scum react to this idea (assuming, for the purposes of argument that it was a serious plan)? Do they want to be part of the bloc so they can steer it? Do they want to avoid it so their vote is less constrained?

I found MiX's reaction to the bloc -- really wanting to get in and even voting for himself to prove his loyalty -- to be the only interesting reaction. I think it might be scummy.

I know most of us saw that whole thing as a little silly, but I can see scum seeing it as a little scary and feeling the need to react to it, or become part of it, as quickly as possible.

I guess that's enough for me to vote: MiX

What makes you think scum would react more to the block than town? As scum, as much as they know, there's a traitor in there, why would they be scared?

I think scum just tends to spook more easily. When I play as scum I'm kind of paranoid about being discovered and about ending up the day 1 lynch. It can lead to overreacting to innocuous things. See also: freaking out about small wagons.
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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #184 on: June 04, 2019, 01:45:01 pm »

I know most of us saw that whole thing as a little silly, but I can see scum seeing it as a little scary and feeling the need to react to it, or become part of it, as quickly as possible.

Eh.. Let's not lump all the votes on MiX under this banner. It's "post hoc ergo propter hoc". I am town and I like voting for MiX. I might always vote for him in N1.
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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #185 on: June 04, 2019, 01:49:10 pm »

Can a friendly town person please give me a high-level explanation of what the traitor is and how it works? I've never played with one and read the mafia wiki on it, but I'm still unsure how it works in or could work in this game.
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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #186 on: June 04, 2019, 01:54:33 pm »

Is tunneling on the notion of a traitor in the same vein as tunneling on finding the SK (i.e. scumtell)?

I would think not. Scum actually wants the SK lynched. They absolutely do not want the traitor lynched. Big difference.

Okay, that makes a lot more sense than I was thinking any argument against possibly could have. I can see how dense I was being.
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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #187 on: June 04, 2019, 02:33:20 pm »

Can a friendly town person please give me a high-level explanation of what the traitor is and how it works? I've never played with one and read the mafia wiki on it, but I'm still unsure how it works in or could work in this game.

friendly - check
high level - very questionable

Traitor is a member of the mafia (NOT a 3rd party).  So in this game just think of it as we have 4 mafia, 1 third party

In a vanilla run of this setup (no modifications) the 3 normal mafia will share the mafia qt, they do not know the traitor, and the traitor doesn't know them.  If the mafia NK the traitor, instead of the traitor dying the traitor becomes a regular member of the mafia and has access to the qt.  If modifications are selected then they occur as stated, but just think of the vanilla style and modify from there.
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silverspawn

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #188 on: June 04, 2019, 02:38:54 pm »

Is tunneling on the notion of a traitor in the same vein as tunneling on finding the SK (i.e. scumtell)?

SK hunting has never been a scum tell, so it doesn't really matter. People think it's a scum tell, but they're all wrong.

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #189 on: June 04, 2019, 02:40:28 pm »

What e said, and also the traitor cannot use the NK as long as he hasn't been recruited (i.e. the mafia targeted them with the NK).

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #190 on: June 04, 2019, 02:43:57 pm »

Is tunneling on the notion of a traitor in the same vein as tunneling on finding the SK (i.e. scumtell)?

SK hunting has never been a scum tell, so it doesn't really matter. People think it's a scum tell, but they're all wrong.

No, you are pretty much verifiably wrong, there.
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pingpongsam

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #191 on: June 04, 2019, 02:46:07 pm »

They way I view traitor (in vanilla) is that town is sufficiently strong to allow scum another man but not so strong as to make him part of the starting team.
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gkrieg13

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #192 on: June 04, 2019, 03:17:23 pm »

1) Skum - Know what they picked/have. They know how many other roles outside of the template one's exist. They don't know who is what role.

The issue is that some scum don't have this info, and scum doesn't know their traitor, and traitor potentially doesn't know who mafia is, and setup talk provides a way for them to signal to each other.
I don't agree with this. Let them signal. Everyone is listening. We want everyone to talk.

As someone who has been lynched for extremely obvious signaling, I agree with this here. I think it is much less likely they successfully signal and no one from town catches it than they out themselves and we can lynch them.

We can also continue to help the Traitor know how they should play and what we expect of him, that's always nice.

Vote: gkrieg

But you don't think EFWH is scummy for saying essentially the same thing?

I do.

Why am I scummier than EFHW?
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gkrieg13

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #193 on: June 04, 2019, 03:18:19 pm »

What e said, and also the traitor cannot use the NK as long as he hasn't been recruited (i.e. the mafia targeted them with the NK).

Or in most setups the traitor inherits the night kill if they are the last mafia left alive.
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MiX

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #194 on: June 04, 2019, 03:21:02 pm »

Why am I scummier than EFHW?

You explained a point that didn't have to be explained further, and in fact I think it was anti-town to explain it. EFHW left it more in the wind.

On the other hand you're town now and EFHW's scummier still, so maybe I was wrong.

Vote: ss
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EFHW

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #195 on: June 04, 2019, 03:44:45 pm »

MiX is fickle.
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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #196 on: June 04, 2019, 03:48:07 pm »

I see ash's point about wanting to get out of the plan business. People like to rely on them as a way to get out of RVS, but why should he be responsible for doing that every game? Also, they are NAI. And finally, that post DatSwan found is 5 months old and not even a contradiction, really.
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Glooble

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #197 on: June 04, 2019, 03:49:59 pm »

MiX is fickle.

In other news, the Pope is Catholic.

One of these games I'll learn how to read MiX.
I see ash's point about wanting to get out of the plan business. People like to rely on them as a way to get out of RVS, but why should he be responsible for doing that every game? Also, they are NAI. And finally, that post DatSwan found is 5 months old and not even a contradiction, really.


I was thinking this too. I think I like vote: DatSwan better than MiX for now.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #198 on: June 04, 2019, 03:51:42 pm »

I'm realizing that DatSwan is getting a meta for imprecision. Anyone else I would have voted for misreading ash (plans vs. planning) and mischaracterizing a post. I don't think that's a great meta for us to accept complacently, so vote: DatSwan anyway.

PPE: Glooble
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Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #199 on: June 04, 2019, 04:19:07 pm »

Unofficial vote count (because I wanted one after that flurry of votes so I figured others might too)

pingpongsam (3): silverspawn, pubby, A Drowned Kernel
DatSwan (3): 2.71828….., Glooble, EFHW
MiX (3): pingpongsam, Debatepro, jotheonah
silverspawn (1): MiX
jotheonah (1): Uncleeurope
ashersky (1): gkrieg13

Not Voting (3): DatSwan, ashersky, mcmcsalot

8 to lynch. So we have three cute lil' miniwagons and like a good week before deadline.
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