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[A Drowned Kernel]

Space? Any thoughts?

I guess at this point, it's up to you to convince EFHW. Otherwise, congrats mix.

[MiX]

EFHW, that post's just the next logical step town had to do. Nothing towny or scummy. If you assume Galz is town (which was a fair assumption at the time) then there's no contradictions in his post.

Sorry if you don't like my early celebration of victory, I'm just realizing how bad giving a pass to ADK was and I want to get my awesone towncred back.

How are you going to get your awesome towncred back?

By "flipping", that is, by ADK flipping scum when he dies, proving I'm town.

MiX, are you the vengeful townie?

If I was I would've self-voted, faster that way.

That would reconcile all my reads. You and MiX would be town, Space would be scum. MiX gets lynched, kills Space, town wins. Or you could be vengeful townie.

Grasping at straws.

Let it be known that this is the precise moment when EFHW's sanity perished.

No, ADK returned a can't kill result. MiX knows I'm leaning toward voting ADK. So he isn't planning some dramatic denouement.

vote: ADK L-1

I almost forgot you're a PR with information. Well, thanks for the vote.

Space? Any thoughts?

I guess at this point, it's up to you to convince EFHW. Otherwise, congrats mix.

Excellent game ADK, well played.


Deadline's in 6 hours right?

[A Drowned Kernel]

We have 14 more hours here

[MiX]

We have 14 more hours here

Oh cool. Guess we have time for Space's input then.

[SpaceAnemone]

Sorry... I started my big read-through hours ago, but then got distracted trying to tick lots of things off my todo list since I have a free day. I realise I have been terrible this game :-(

Anyway, I haven't finished the big re-read, but I'll post the stuff I wrote as preamble before starting it now, just to let you guys know I'm still here:

MiX is behaving quite differently to the other game I played with him. I think that's a really good thing! But it also tells me that he's quickly adaptive, so if we're in a situation where we know we have a dveious bussy scum, I just think the chances are higher that it's him rather than ADK. Though I don't know ADK particularly well. EFHW, given that there's recently-unearthed footage showing that you may have met ADK in person, do you have more of a read on his personality with respect to deviousness?

Okay, now my paranoia is out of the way, I feel like I should do a complete re-read of ADK with a view to scumreading him, in case I can just agree with EFHW, because she's clearly sunk more time into this game than I have, so it would be foolish of me not to trust her.

[SpaceAnemone]

Also, if the deadline is 10.30pm tonight Forum Time, that 03.30 tomorrow my time, and I will be asleep. Worst case scenario, I'm still here in 1.5 hours trying to figure things out.

[MiX]

Sorry... I started my big read-through hours ago, but then got distracted trying to tick lots of things off my todo list since I have a free day. I realise I have been terrible this game :-(

Well technically that allowed you to live, so it can't be that bad, right? Although I have to agree with this, mostly because PRs targetted you a lot.

MiX is behaving quite differently to the other game I played with him. I think that's a really good thing! But it also tells me that he's quickly adaptive, so if we're in a situation where we know we have a dveious bussy scum, I just think the chances are higher that it's him rather than ADK. Though I don't know ADK particularly well. EFHW, given that there's recently-unearthed footage showing that you may have met ADK in person, do you have more of a read on his personality with respect to deviousness?

We have bussy scum, but do we have devious bussy scum? I don't think scum bussed a lot after D1, and even then they protected ADK a lot that day. Also, thank you, and remember last game I was SK so being different doesn't mean anything too specific here.

[SpaceAnemone]

We have bussy scum, but do we have devious bussy scum? I don't think scum bussed a lot after D1, and even then they protected ADK a lot that day. Also, thank you, and remember last game I was SK so being different doesn't mean anything too specific here.

There are loads of examples of bussing after D1! Why would you even think it's worth making the statement that you don't think they bussed much after D1?

1) You and ADK were both voting Swan in D2, so that's guaranteed bussing there.

2) Chairs bussed Swan right up to his lynch on D2.

3) You and ADK were both voting Chairs D3, so someone was bussing.

One big voting pattern difference between you and ADK is that you and Chairs voted for each other on D4, whereas ADK didn't cast a single vote that day. I feel like that's kind of a show of you and Chairs bussing each other. To me, that feels at least as likely as it would be for ADK just to have floated off, leaving his buddy to get lynched without even cashing in on it (in what we already know is a high-bussing game), or even voting somewhere else.

[MiX]

We have bussy scum, but do we have devious bussy scum? I don't think scum bussed a lot after D1, and even then they protected ADK a lot that day. Also, thank you, and remember last game I was SK so being different doesn't mean anything too specific here.

There are loads of examples of bussing after D1! Why would you even think it's worth making the statement that you don't think they bussed much after D1?

1) You and ADK were both voting Swan in D2, so that's guaranteed bussing there.

2) Chairs bussed Swan right up to his lynch on D2.

3) You and ADK were both voting Chairs D3, so someone was bussing.

One big voting pattern difference between you and ADK is that you and Chairs voted for each other on D4, whereas ADK didn't cast a single vote that day. I feel like that's kind of a show of you and Chairs bussing each other. To me, that feels at least as likely as it would be for ADK just to have floated off, leaving his buddy to get lynched without even cashing in on it (in what we already know is a high-bussing game), or even voting somewhere else.

There's bussing, and there's bussing a lot. Scum!MiX scenario has a lot more bussing, relatively speaking, so for me scum didn't bus THAT much. Besides, the bus that did happen was pretty low risk, either scum was flipping already or they defended them afterwards.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Just a heads up, space, unless EFHW changes her vote then I'm getting lynched no matter what.

(Also I'm a they if you don't mind)

[MiX]

Just a heads up, space, unless EFHW changes her vote then I'm getting lynched no matter what.

(Also I'm a they if you don't mind)

Gotta love plurality lynch! Technically won us the game by getting Joseph (although I think I could hammer him? forgot) so I can't hate it too much.

[SpaceAnemone]

Also I'm a they if you don't mind

Ah, very sorry! I will do better!

[SpaceAnemone]

As for votes, yes, at this point unless EFHW changes her vote, then ADK is lynched regardless of whether I stay as not voting or put my vote on MiX.

I think if I vote for MiX, that still leaves the ball in EFHW's court, but means that she can switch over to hammer MiX if she happens to have a change of heart, right?

The advantage of doing that is that EFHW will be awake much later than I am, and therefore it maximises our flexibility. The disadvantage is that it kind of dumps everything on EFHW, whereas I'd like to have been able to bring myself to agree with her and present a united front. That would have been a more satisfying ending, especially if we lynch correctly!

[A Drowned Kernel]

Also I'm a they if you don't mind

Ah, very sorry! I will do better!

No worries

[SpaceAnemone]

Also I'm a they if you don't mind

Ah, very sorry! I will do better!

No worries

It's great that there are more "they/them" people around :-)

[SpaceAnemone]

Okay.. here's my slightly edited reread of ADK. Much as I tried to read as if they're scum from the start, I kept reverting to townreading them in all but a handful of posts.

ADK points out at #19 that a scum promoter wouldn't want to risk claiming town promoter in case the traitor flips, so town could treat a claimed promoter as IC. Since already at this point scum knew that the promoter was town, then scum themselves wouldn't have needed to believe in whatever case they put forward for why a scum promoter claiming town wouldn't have been a problem. They would still have needed an excuse that sounded plausible to scumhunting town, though.

At #225 ADK's engaging with Chairs about whether a scum promoter can safely fake-claim. Again, if they're both scum, it's a neat setup in that they know there's no scum promoter already so it's a safe hypothetical, and a good way to interact. It does also show that ADK has been able to let their belief about how safe it is for a scum promoter to claim to be seen to have evolved since what they posted in the earlier game, though.. I feel like as scum it's easier to make up one narrative and stick to it.

At #327 they're questioning mcmc's scumread on MiX... is that just to discredit mcmc and keep MiX around for a later mislynch, or is that genuine scum-hunting on ADK's part?

Okay, I could finally believe at #429 that ADK mentioning that they find Chairs scummy for jumping on faust's ADK-case could be part of a bussing strategy because that section feels a little clunky.

I feel like I should have something to say about #545 because it's a moderately long post. Why does scum!ADK need to try to distract from the MiX wagon? At that point, there's just been a vote count, ADK is not voting, and MiX os in 5 voets to ADK's 4, with 8 to lynch. I feel like scum would be more okay with a MiX vote there.

They're still allegedly townreading MiX at #708. And at #727 they say they've reread some of MiX's posts and are convinced he's town. I guess "we discussed it in the scum QT and decided that MiX was a good mislynch to save for later on, so didn't want to push him this early" is less snappy a justification.

#790 "1) If mix is town there's no motivation for them to claim and stop you from picking him 2) If mix is scum this irrevocably ties galz and mix together, and if one of them is caught the other one does. It's a huge risk just to stop you from picking mix, when it's pretty clear that if you did pick mix, you would be the one lynched anyway." -- this feels like an important observation coming from someone who's now in a 1v1 with MiX in a scenario where Galz was town. If ADK is scum, isn't it giving unnecessary towncred to MiX at this point?

At #838 ADK says "At this point we know the setup", which would be kind of a scumslip if they're scum. I feel like their response to it, on Ari pointing out that Galz could still be scum!promoter, was pretty natural and not like someone caught in a slip.

ADK calls for a massclaim at #879. I remember seeing that and being surprised we could get such good PoE at the time, but not being sure it was better than playing normally. So it could have been a cunning plot by scum to out all our PRs because they were starting to feel a bit cornered.

Urgh.. big wall to pick my way through at #951. At least I'm almost 2/3 of the way through the full set of posts. Actually the take-home is that ADK's pivoting to favour a Joth lynch over a Swan lynch. Yeah, that's scummy-looking in hindsight at least :-)

At #1169 they're quick to believe my vengeful townie claim. Could scum have used EFHW's result to paint me in a worse light, like by implying that maybe the "real" vengeful townie just didn't want to claim yet? Especially since we'd already had that with another PR earlier in the game.

They're pushing the Chairs lynch at #1444, and also townreading MiX some more.

At #1448 there's this: "they might feel like their only real hope is to go quiet and let people paranoid-talk themselves into switching to mix". Yeah, this is pretty much me, paranoidly scumreading MiX :-P

Case on MiX at #1592. It all sounds reasonable, though it does start to gain a slight air of grasping-at-straws in the D4 section on why MiX chose to challenge Chairs over gkrieg.

So I guess the thing to do is to go into MiX's choice there, if that's the really critical thing. That can get its own post.

[SpaceAnemone]

D4 started with 8 players: chairs, jotheonah, MiX, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

MiX was promoted.
Galz was the outed prob!town promoter.
EFHW and I were ICs by being un-counterclaimed PRs.
Joth was prob!towb because he'd successfully picked a scum to challenge in D2.
MiX's story at that point was that ADK was prob!lynchee, and that the scumteam had to be gkrieg/chairs

So could MiX have challenge gkrieg? ADK's argument was that no, he couldn't safely have done it.

Scenario A: MiX challenges gkrieg, MiX loses, and is killed off as scum. Only the lurker Chairs remains in the scum-team, and he's the apparent next lynch, so that's kind of game over.

Scenario B: MiX challenges gkrieg and wins, but gkrieg flips town. Lynchpool for the next day is ADK, Chairs, MiX and possibly Galz. (Where did Joth go from ADK's reckoning here?)

Scenario B1: MiX is summarily lynched for picking a townie to challenge. This seems unfair, because town!MiX would have had no information to go on, and there was no reason to expect an exact 1-v-1 between MiX and whomever he'd selected on D4.

Scenario B2: Consensus moves to challenge Chairs, going back to the argument at the start of D4 that gkrieg and Chairs were the two most likely scums.

Scenario B3: Town is led along to another mislynch instead. This would have to be ADK, Joth or Galz by this point, I think.

So if ADK is scum, then they're trying to point out that scum!MiX had no good way out in the scenarios above, and had to avoid this decision tree because all the options A, B1, B2 and B3 are bad for scum, or too unlikely. Of course, B3 is the ideal scenario for scum. Would scum!MiX definitely have decided it was too risky, and taken the towncred for picking Chairs instead? It's true that MiX's professed townreads weren't very compatible with steering the game towards lynching e..g ADK or Joth at that point, but did it look as hopeless as the picutre ADK painted? I feel like maybe it did, or could have done.

I really should just vote MiX, go to sleep, and wake up when it's all over :-P

[SpaceAnemone]

Meh.. none of you three is showing as online right now, and I'm way past bedtime.

Vote: MiX

EFHW, I'm sorry to go against you and leave the whole of the final outcome in your hands! I do hope you're right and I'm just too paranoid about MiX :-)

[EFHW]

I'm sticking with ADK.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm sticking with ADK.

Booooooo

[Uncleeurope]

LaLight was gone, leaving Uncleeurope alone in the darkness. He stumbled around in search of meaning.

After yearning for power for so long, and for LaLight to come to some ambiguous form of demise, Uncleeurope only felt empty. Supposedly he should be happy with this ending. After all, LaLight was gone, and Uncleeurope was writing the final piece of flavor. This was the culmination of his life's work.

But it meant nothing.

Everything was so dull.

What did any of it matter?

He couldn't even find a reason for why it didn't matter. Was it because everyone would soon know all he knew? That his power was coming to an end? That his purpose being fulfilled had ripped a hold into his soul that would never be repaired again?

Uncleeurope was confused. He hated being confused.

Uncleeurope looked down, "Hmm, what's this, a poem?"

He picked up a small scrap of paper. The handwriting looked familiar, it must have been left by LaLight.

Purpose is gone, meaning is lost
Knowing is not worth the cost
Power is a frenzied dream
Bought with greed and scheme

Strip these all away from me
Now I am transparency
Goodbye to my sanity
All that's left is clarity

But it wasn't LaLight's writing, even now Uncleeurope was the one writing these words.

He knew what it meant to be a mod.

He knew what he was, now.

He was alone.

Empty words fell out of Uncleeurope's mouth, "A Drowned Kernel the Godfather has been killed...

The game is over, you can all go home, now."

With that, Uncleeurope set off to find LaLight.

Town wins

[jotheonah]

1. That was beautiful

2. We won! Hooray!

3. I can’t believe MiX was town.

[Galzria]

1. That was beautiful

2. We won! Hooray!

3. I can’t believe MiX was town.

Nyah Nyah! 

Well done sticking to your guns on that EFHW!

[SpaceAnemone]

EFHW, you are awesome!! :-)

[MiX]

That was one of the coolest games I've ever played, being the center of attention all game, trying to act super super towny knowing that my survival would determine town's victory...I can't believe we won!

Excellent game by ADK, but now I need to ask: who WAS Lynchee? I must know!

The flavour's a beautiful mess, I loved it.

This wasn't exactly a great game to test this setup, given the fun part died D1, regardless it seems pretty even if the third-party lives longer.

QTs please?