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Author Topic: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Game Over! Town won!)  (Read 193326 times)

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jotheonah

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2019, 01:58:53 pm »

Unrelated note: Well done gkrieg.

This reminds me: What's gkrieg's meta? With his, feel free to explain chairs joth and Galzria's metas as well, I just realized I haven't played with them yet.

Vote: ADK
Faust, is this a pressure vote, or do you have some sort of reason to believe A Drowned Kernel is scummy or something? Explain.
I have some sort of reason to vote for ADK.
...Would you care to explain this reason? Preferably in glorious detail?

Your time is better spent elsewhere.

My meta is a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a tortilla wrapped in a day 2 mislynch.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2019, 02:00:34 pm »

Woooo so happy to be back!

Some quick setup info because I think it helps to make sure town is aware and scum will have discussed/analyzed the setup a lot.

There can only be one promoter and mafia (including traitor) know which one exists.
There is only one of the Jester/Lyncher existing and the cop/vengeful townie/psychologist/tracker know which one exists.

A promoter claim is scary.

If we have a town promoter their claim is okay, they become an ic when The Godfather flips but means nothing before then because it could be mafia lying.
If we have a town promoter and mafia pretends to claim it is a 1v1 which is great.
If we have a town promoter and the jester pretends to claim it is perfect for the jester. Mafia can easily avoid hammering as they know they are not the town promoter and not fake claiming.

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.
If we have a mafia promoter the mafia traitor could claim promoter to signify to the mafia they exist and they know there is no town promoter.
If we have a mafia promoter the jester could again claim to confuse people or counter claim which would make mafia(or traitor) aware of who the jester but would be forced to keep up the ruse and try to kill the jester.


What all this says to me is that the jester wants us to “force” a promoter claim really bad I think.
It also provides a potential way for the traitor to come out to their partners. In the end it does t help town that much either so I think strict no promoter claim is the right way to go.

We can just confirm if a claimed promoter is lying by asking them at the start of the next day who they targeted, though, and if they don't get it right we know they're lying.
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jotheonah

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2019, 02:00:53 pm »


This reminds me: What's gkrieg's meta? With his, feel free to explain chairs joth and Galzria's metas as well, I just realized I haven't played with them yet.


Joth tends to be very flippant and sarcastic, which sometimes makes people read him as scum, but it's actually not indicative of his alignment at all. He's not usually confrontational and tends to try to de-escalate when other players get heated towards one another.

Obligatory twinclaim: joth is my literal twin.

Glooble's town meta is thoughtful, methodical play and sometimes digging himself in a big hole of suspicion by overreacting to votes on him as either alignment.

vote: Glooble
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2019, 02:01:45 pm »

Woooo so happy to be back!

Some quick setup info because I think it helps to make sure town is aware and scum will have discussed/analyzed the setup a lot.

There can only be one promoter and mafia (including traitor) know which one exists.
There is only one of the Jester/Lyncher existing and the cop/vengeful townie/psychologist/tracker know which one exists.

A promoter claim is scary.

If we have a town promoter their claim is okay, they become an ic when The Godfather flips but means nothing before then because it could be mafia lying.
If we have a town promoter and mafia pretends to claim it is a 1v1 which is great.
If we have a town promoter and the jester pretends to claim it is perfect for the jester. Mafia can easily avoid hammering as they know they are not the town promoter and not fake claiming.

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.
If we have a mafia promoter the mafia traitor could claim promoter to signify to the mafia they exist and they know there is no town promoter.
If we have a mafia promoter the jester could again claim to confuse people or counter claim which would make mafia(or traitor) aware of who the jester but would be forced to keep up the ruse and try to kill the jester.


What all this says to me is that the jester wants us to “force” a promoter claim really bad I think.
It also provides a potential way for the traitor to come out to their partners. In the end it does t help town that much either so I think strict no promoter claim is the right way to go.

We can just confirm if a claimed promoter is lying by asking them at the start of the next day who they targeted, though, and if they don't get it right we know they're lying.

Well I just checked and gladiator is publicly announced. Well, that's worse then.
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jotheonah

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2019, 02:03:01 pm »

I am vehemently opposed to day 1 claiming of any kind on principle. I am also the Jester.
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jotheonah

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2019, 02:03:17 pm »

(I'm joking, I'm not the Jester)
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2019, 02:06:12 pm »

Also the mafia promoter is devastatingly strong. Like we need them dead so so quickly.
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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2019, 02:07:42 pm »

joth is for sure the jester, got it.
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Glooble

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2019, 02:11:46 pm »

Also the mafia promoter is devastatingly strong. Like we need them dead so so quickly.

Why? If they choose one of their own, the town has a 50% chance of hitting scum. If they choose a town player they have no way to assure that player won't choose scum. Are the odds that any given town player correctly identifies scum really all that much worse than the odds of lynching scum on a given day? Especially considering that the gladiator doesn't have to choose their target immediately and can, if they wish, solicit the input of the rest of the town (72 hours is a decent amount of time)?
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2019, 02:16:45 pm »

Also the mafia promoter is devastatingly strong. Like we need them dead so so quickly.

Why? If they choose one of their own, the town has a 50% chance of hitting scum. If they choose a town player they have no way to assure that player won't choose scum. Are the odds that any given town player correctly identifies scum really all that much worse than the odds of lynching scum on a given day? Especially considering that the gladiator doesn't have to choose their target immediately and can, if they wish, solicit the input of the rest of the town (72 hours is a decent amount of time)?

Right the gladiator chooses the second target. Scratch that.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2019, 02:19:22 pm »

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.

Isn't this part good though?
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MiX

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2019, 02:22:51 pm »

Mcmc's setup talk overestimates Jester fakeclaiming: If two people claim promoter, why would we assume there's scum between them? Two promoter claims do seem like a complete mess...one that could be figured out right now, because there's no reason to assume that it won't happen in future days. Unless you would rather have promoter be NKd to avoid it?

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.

Isn't this part good though?

Yes? Why wouldn't it be? But I doubt no one will claim promoter here.
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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2019, 02:26:52 pm »

Mcmc's setup talk overestimates Jester fakeclaiming: If two people claim promoter, why would we assume there's scum between them? Two promoter claims do seem like a complete mess...one that could be figured out right now, because there's no reason to assume that it won't happen in future days. Unless you would rather have promoter be NKd to avoid it?

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.

Isn't this part good though?

Yes? Why wouldn't it be? But I doubt no one will claim promoter here.

mcmc's whole post is that promoter claiming is bad, but this point seems to be a pretty good one in favor of the promoter claiming. And is that double negative intentional?
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arishipshape

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #63 on: April 24, 2019, 02:35:13 pm »

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.
I have one game to my name.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19407.0
In this game, I was scum. Feel free to read it over. Anyways, you are absolutely correct in my straightforwardness. I try not to mask, deceive, or be unclear in any way, shape, or form, so as to leave no room for any misinterpretation, which is a scum's friend.
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jotheonah

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #64 on: April 24, 2019, 02:35:51 pm »

Quote
If 2 Bodyguards target the same player and that player would die, both die, but they kill the attacker.
This doesn't work on the Cop.

When you say "this doesn't work on the cop", does that mean the bodyguards wouldn't protect the cop, the bodyguards would protect the cop but wouldn't die, the bodyguards would die but not kill the attacker, or what?
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MiX

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #65 on: April 24, 2019, 02:37:46 pm »

Mcmc's setup talk overestimates Jester fakeclaiming: If two people claim promoter, why would we assume there's scum between them? Two promoter claims do seem like a complete mess...one that could be figured out right now, because there's no reason to assume that it won't happen in future days. Unless you would rather have promoter be NKd to avoid it?

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.

Isn't this part good though?

Yes? Why wouldn't it be? But I doubt no one will claim promoter here.

mcmc's whole post is that promoter claiming is bad, but this point seems to be a pretty good one in favor of the promoter claiming. And is that double negative intentional?

If the double negative refers to the third part of my post then yes. "I believe someone will claim promoter" is a better way to phrase it. I suppose you're right saying that mcmc said that the most likely thing to happen is a pro-town thing, but that's only in half of the setups and it might not even happen. He's also right in that scum!Promoter won't claim and instead Traitor will, there's just no reason for them to claim.

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.
I have one game to my name.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19407.0
In this game, I was scum. Feel free to read it over. Anyways, you are absolutely correct in my straightforwardness. I try not to mask, deceive, or be unclear in any way, shape, or form, so as to leave no room for any misinterpretation, which is a scum's friend.

To be frank, you did the same things in the game you quoted.

Quote
If 2 Bodyguards target the same player and that player would die, both die, but they kill the attacker.
This doesn't work on the Cop.

When you say "this doesn't work on the cop", does that mean the bodyguards wouldn't protect the cop, the bodyguards would protect the cop but wouldn't die, the bodyguards would die but not kill the attacker, or what?

I'm assuming...nothing happens? Please?
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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #66 on: April 24, 2019, 02:39:03 pm »

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.
I have one game to my name.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19407.0
In this game, I was scum. Feel free to read it over. Anyways, you are absolutely correct in my straightforwardness. I try not to mask, deceive, or be unclear in any way, shape, or form, so as to leave no room for any misinterpretation, which is a scum's friend.

Question: do you think that joking and sarcasm, in players other than yourself, is a scumtell?
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MiX

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #67 on: April 24, 2019, 02:41:07 pm »

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.
I have one game to my name.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19407.0
In this game, I was scum. Feel free to read it over. Anyways, you are absolutely correct in my straightforwardness. I try not to mask, deceive, or be unclear in any way, shape, or form, so as to leave no room for any misinterpretation, which is a scum's friend.

Question: do you think that joking and sarcasm, in players other than yourself, is a scumtell?

Can I extend this question to sarcasm made by yourself (ari) as well?
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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #68 on: April 24, 2019, 02:42:14 pm »


If the double negative refers to the third part of my post then yes. "I believe someone will claim promoter" is a better way to phrase it. I suppose you're right saying that mcmc said that the most likely thing to happen is a pro-town thing, but that's only in half of the setups and it might not even happen. He's also right in that scum!Promoter won't claim and instead Traitor will, there's just no reason for them to claim.


Why do you believe someone will claim, given that there seems to be a fair bit of disagreement over whether it's a good thing?
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MiX

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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #69 on: April 24, 2019, 02:44:12 pm »


If the double negative refers to the third part of my post then yes. "I believe someone will claim promoter" is a better way to phrase it. I suppose you're right saying that mcmc said that the most likely thing to happen is a pro-town thing, but that's only in half of the setups and it might not even happen. He's also right in that scum!Promoter won't claim and instead Traitor will, there's just no reason for them to claim.


Why do you believe someone will claim, given that there seems to be a fair bit of disagreement over whether it's a good thing?

I meant if town wants to go forward with this claim. The scenario that I'm discarding is "town says promoter should claim and no one claims, proving that the promoter's scum", that's a daydream that will never happen.
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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #70 on: April 24, 2019, 02:47:02 pm »


If the double negative refers to the third part of my post then yes. "I believe someone will claim promoter" is a better way to phrase it. I suppose you're right saying that mcmc said that the most likely thing to happen is a pro-town thing, but that's only in half of the setups and it might not even happen. He's also right in that scum!Promoter won't claim and instead Traitor will, there's just no reason for them to claim.


Why do you believe someone will claim, given that there seems to be a fair bit of disagreement over whether it's a good thing?

I meant if town wants to go forward with this claim. The scenario that I'm discarding is "town says promoter should claim and no one claims, proving that the promoter's scum", that's a daydream that will never happen.

Got it.
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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2019, 02:53:18 pm »

Quote
If 2 Bodyguards target the same player and that player would die, both die, but they kill the attacker.
This doesn't work on the Cop.

When you say "this doesn't work on the cop", does that mean the bodyguards wouldn't protect the cop, the bodyguards would protect the cop but wouldn't die, the bodyguards would die but not kill the attacker, or what?

The Macho Cap would be the only casualty.
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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #72 on: April 24, 2019, 02:54:21 pm »

Question for ADK and the pro-claim crew:

If a promoter claims, is our next move to try to direct their power use? I sort of like that since then the fake-claiming scum promoter is locked into using their power in a town-powered way or else giving themselves away.
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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2019, 02:55:04 pm »

Of course, the inverse is also true: We would give scum an opportunity to participate in directing the town promoter's action.
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Re: M122: Lalight's run out of ideas Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2019, 03:00:50 pm »

Question for ADK and the pro-claim crew:

If a promoter claims, is our next move to try to direct their power use? I sort of like that since then the fake-claiming scum promoter is locked into using their power in a town-powered way or else giving themselves away.

After mcmc's post I'm not 100% I'm on the pro-claim crew anymore.

That is another benefit to the promoter claiming, though.
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