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[raerae]

@ADK, thanks for giving me the hammer when you could have double voted. You're sweet.

[raerae]

And super thanks to the mods, this was solid, I had a blast.

[WestCoastDidds]

So much fun!

Joth, Glooble...this was awesome!  Thank you!

[Glooble]

Can I just take a moment to thank Ash for writing all his messages in verse even though he did not have to? That was great!

[faust]

It's easy to say the setup was unbalanced toward scum, but in fact had Awaclus not copped faust, scum would have almost certainly won.

We could have won and the setup could still be unbalanced toward scum.

Like all role madness games, this was an experiment.

I certainly disagree that RMMs need to be experiments.

It was still fun until we were screwed, but I don't think we ever had a chance to win in a game where 6 people were ICs.

[MiX]

It's easy to say the setup was unbalanced toward scum, but in fact had Awaclus not copped faust, scum would have almost certainly won.

We could have won and the setup could still be unbalanced toward scum.

Like all role madness games, this was an experiment.

I certainly disagree that RMMs need to be experiments.

It was still fun until we were screwed, but I don't think we ever had a chance to win in a game where 6 people were ICs.

Wait, does "unbalanced toward scum" mean it's scum favoured? Because I doubt it. I think the best way to describe this is "swingy": the entire game was decided between picking mcmc and shraeye N3, almost nothing else mattered.

Overall it was a fun setup, and a fun game, but I wouldn't call it balanced.

[Awaclus]

Wait, does "unbalanced toward scum" mean it's scum favoured? Because I doubt it. I think the best way to describe this is "swingy": the entire game was decided between picking mcmc and shraeye N3, almost nothing else mattered.

Hitting two of the Baudelaires with your first two attempts certainly didn't matter, for instance.

[Glooble]

I think the big mistake was not realizing how easy it would be for Volunteers to identify each other.

[MiX]

Wait, does "unbalanced toward scum" mean it's scum favoured? Because I doubt it. I think the best way to describe this is "swingy": the entire game was decided between picking mcmc and shraeye N3, almost nothing else mattered.

Hitting two of the Baudelaires with your first two attempts certainly didn't matter, for instance.

I think it was pretty average luck to hit 3 Baudelaires in 4 tries, actually.

I think the big mistake was not realizing how easy it would be for Volunteers to identify each other.

Less that and more that scum had absolutely no chances of fakeclaiming VFD. We should've backpedeled the VFD messenger plan super hard really, kinda our fault there.

Hmm, I think we made bad decisions and got lucky. That's how I make peace with this game.

[jotheonah]

I think if I had it to do again I would probably replace full strongman with an X-shot strongman that wasn’t tied to a particular scum. And probably go back to the version of VFD that was bodyguard rather than doctor, which was in consideration during setup development. Also would probably nix the VFD cop.

Maybe giving scum a 1-shot daykill or a vengekill would have helped. There’s a lot of knobs to turn. I’m curious to hear how other people would make this more balanced.

Idk, it seemed more balanced when we cooked it up, and we really did spend a lot of time looking at it, but i guess I’ve been out of the game too long and I’m apparently pretty rusty at this stuff.

Coming off of DS9, I was feeling very wary about running an open setup because that was so much more work than expected in terms of answering endless questions about corner cases. But then with closed setups you get the constant dread that your game is super broken and everyone’s going to feel shafted at the end. So you know, it can be stressful stuff either way.

[Awaclus]

I think it was pretty average luck to hit 3 Baudelaires in 4 tries, actually.

It's pretty clearly not average luck. Your chances of missing were: 2/3 (didn't happen), 5/7 (didn't happen), 1/2 (happened), and 0, assuming you could believe ADK's claim about not being one of the Baudelaires. If you had missed N1, it still would have been 4/7 to miss again.

[MiX]

I think it was pretty average luck to hit 3 Baudelaires in 4 tries, actually.

It's pretty clearly not average luck. Your chances of missing were: 2/3 (didn't happen), 5/7 (didn't happen), 1/2 (happened), and 0, assuming you could believe ADK's claim about not being one of the Baudelaires. If you had missed N1, it still would have been 4/7 to miss again.

PoE is REALLY strong, to be honest. Everyone ties with each other in a very meaningful way. It was luck that E was Baudelaire, but it wasn't luck that we thought he was a very good candidate for Baudelaire. Same for the rest.

[faust]

Maybe giving scum a 1-shot daykill or a vengekill would have helped. There’s a lot of knobs to turn. I’m curious to hear how other people would make this more balanced.

I think the ideal way would be to make one of the Baudelaires or one of the Volunteers who know Baudelaires scum. You really have to break open the "6 ICs" angle of the game, I don't think there's another way to fix the setup.

[Swowl]

Fun game!

Thanks a lot Mods for running it!

GG everyone!

[jotheonah]

Night action link is now shareable. Sorry about that.

[Awaclus]

You really have to break open the "6 ICs" angle of the game, I don't think there's another way to fix the setup.

I super agree with this and I think everything else is a minor detail. Even the VFD Cop, or effectively full Cop as it played out in this game, was concretely a minor detail, and that highlights how big the fundamental problem is.

The fact that half of town was an IC and only the ICs had any idea what was going on was the main reason why the game was unbalanced, but more importantly, made it feel like I was spectating the game instead of participating in it — the main difference being that I still had to put in the effort only to find out later that I had made the right calls but it had hardly made any difference. Not only did my night actions not matter, but my opinions (regarding plans and stuff) also did not matter because I wasn't able to form any opinions in the first place because unlike most other townies, I didn't have any idea what was going on. My reads also didn't matter; the ICs who knew what was going on basically just told me what reads I should have and then I had those reads. Drawing the roleblock N1 was probably legit one of the most concretely useful things that I did this game, and it's what I was trying to avoid.

I don't know if the other non-ICs or scum had a similar experience, but I certainly did.

[Uncleeurope]

Cool inventor idea. I really like that a lot, actually.

My main gripe coming off of this was that the VFD all knew a Baudelaire and had the same ability, essentially making VFD unclaimable (with Baudelaire already being inclaimable). Because us baddies didn’t know that by claiming a VFD it was a 1/2 to find me instead of a 1/4 like we thought. A 1/2 where the other two can confirm.

Because I thought I played my claim fairly well but it didn’t end up mattering, I was dead the moment I told ADK I was a volunteer N1.

My only regret is that I didn’t break character and tell my team to kill Shraeye before I died.

[MiX]

My only regret is that I didn’t break character and tell my team to kill Shraeye before I died.

As much as we love you, I don't think we would listen. shraeye being Baudelaire implied town had a lot of confidence that he wouldn't die, and we thought town didn't have that confidence. Of course now we know town had an amazing doctor which is why they revealed shraeye, but at the time that felt a little too strong.

Also, agreed with Awaclus that town does nothing, the game was essencially scum vs scum, in fact, Baudelaire even have MORE information than scum, so it's really a game where the traditional roles flip, and it's up to scum to gather reads and town to hide.

"Baudelaire are the real scum" is something I've been wanting to say ever since I saw the setup and it's really true, especially with the VFD thing.

[raerae]

For what it's worth, ADK was almost as much in the dark as the rest of town. DatSwan and I were only able to coordinate well because of the tin can.

[Uncleeurope]

Well, raerae would not have done what she did day 1 without Shraeye being the Baudelaire she knew.

Shraeye even confirmed it by saying "She knows I am town"

It was roughly 99/1 in my head for shraeye/mcmc.

And we knew they would have a doctor of some sort, so that should be as much of a factor I don't think.

But hey, at least it is no longer a regret if you wouldn't have listened to me.

[ashersky]

Can I just take a moment to thank Ash for writing all his messages in verse even though he did not have to? That was great!

You are welcome. As far as I can see, that was my only value-added this game. Not sure how much of a positive effect I had game-wise; I didn’t vote much and hammered town. I did scum read both MiX and faust.

ADK, why did you never really come around on me?

[mcmcsalot]

You really have to break open the "6 ICs" angle of the game, I don't think there's another way to fix the setup.

I super agree with this and I think everything else is a minor detail. Even the VFD Cop, or effectively full Cop as it played out in this game, was concretely a minor detail, and that highlights how big the fundamental problem is.

The fact that half of town was an IC and only the ICs had any idea what was going on was the main reason why the game was unbalanced, but more importantly, made it feel like I was spectating the game instead of participating in it — the main difference being that I still had to put in the effort only to find out later that I had made the right calls but it had hardly made any difference. Not only did my night actions not matter, but my opinions (regarding plans and stuff) also did not matter because I wasn't able to form any opinions in the first place because unlike most other townies, I didn't have any idea what was going on. My reads also didn't matter; the ICs who knew what was going on basically just told me what reads I should have and then I had those reads. Drawing the roleblock N1 was probably legit one of the most concretely useful things that I did this game, and it's what I was trying to avoid.

I don't know if the other non-ICs or scum had a similar experience, but I certainly did.

I can relate to this a lot, I felt like I did literally nothing impactfull all game and also felt like it wasn't going to affect the game

[A Drowned Kernel]

Can I just take a moment to thank Ash for writing all his messages in verse even though he did not have to? That was great!

You are welcome. As far as I can see, that was my only value-added this game. Not sure how much of a positive effect I had game-wise; I didn’t vote much and hammered town. I did scum read both MiX and faust.

ADK, why did you never really come around on me?

I thought the message was meant to imply "ash is a baudelaire/volunteer", not "ash is town", and I suspected the former was wondering. Also, the fact that you continued to scumread me feel weird, which may have been a mutual problem.

@eddie what's funny is that if you hadn't confirmed the message at all I would've townreading you, as I suspected that the message was from someone else (partly because you signed it "uncleeurope" and not "eddie")

[raerae]

Well, raerae would not have done what she did day 1 without Shraeye being the Baudelaire she knew.

Shraeye even confirmed it by saying "She knows I am town"

It was roughly 99/1 in my head for shraeye/mcmc.

And we knew they would have a doctor of some sort, so that should be as much of a factor I don't think.

But hey, at least it is no longer a regret if you wouldn't have listened to me.

Bullshit. I didn't have any strong scum reads, I don't think a no lunch is scummy, it was a good time to do it and I'd say shraeye had very little to do with my decision.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Also I might have hesitated to Lynch you if you had argued that hey, maybe joth was a troll when he made the setup and there isn't a one-to-one volunteer correspondence