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Author Topic: Project - card parallels  (Read 1482 times)

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ednever

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Project - card parallels
« on: April 17, 2019, 04:06:20 pm »
+2

A thought I had today (not very original I am sure)

Fair - Market Square :: $4 / $3
Barracks - Village :: $6 / $3
Canal - Highway :: $7 / $5
NA - Lab :: NA / $5

Thoughts:
- They kind of scale the same way (order of value)
- Village is likely underpriced for what it does - but for a good reason - the game is a lot more fun with cheap villages
- Unclear why there isn't a Project for +1 card. Too much overlap with Flag and Hireling?
- +buy is obviously the weakest - except when it is the most important. When there is no other way to get +1 buy Fair is likely the best deal of the bunch. I'll bet it could have been priced higher and it would still be worth buying - when it is worth buying at all

Ed
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2019, 07:50:57 pm »
0

Interesting. So the price ratios get higher the more useful the effect is.

In that case, a +1 card project would be at least $9, and I might even put it at $10, since +1 card is even better when it's at the start of your turn.

Considering Poacher is $4, a +$1 project would be $6 or $7. I'd put it at $6 since $ is much less useful than actions at the start of your turn.

Also, Cathedral could probably stand a price raise. It gets docked a few $ for the non-optionality, but I still think it could end up higher when compared to the others.

What other vanilla bonuses are there? Hmmm... what about a +1 VP project? The closest we have to cantrip +VP is Groundskeeper, but the real deal is probably better. I'd put it at $9, since +VP isn't useful at the start of your turn.
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werothegreat

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2019, 10:51:38 pm »
0

A +1 Card project would be an insta-buy - you'd always get it.  At least with Barracks you sometimes don't get it in Village-heavy games.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2019, 12:26:59 am »
+4

A +1 Card Project is very close to Hireling. I believe that’s the reason it wasn’t seriously considered.
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faust

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2019, 12:59:48 am »
+5

Also, Cathedral could probably stand a price raise. It gets docked a few $ for the non-optionality, but I still think it could end up higher when compared to the others.
Not really. Cathedral is good because you can open with it. I  guess you could put it at $4, but that just leads to 4/3 getting a significant advantage over 3/4 and otherwise doesn't do much.
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segura

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2019, 01:40:22 am »
0

- Unclear why there isn't a Project for +1 card. Too much overlap with Flag and Hireling?
Crop Rotation and Road Network are more interesting than an auto-Hireling.
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ipofanes

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2019, 07:20:10 am »
0

In that case, a +1 card project would be at least $9, and I might even put it at $10, since +1 card is even better when it's at the start of your turn.

This is not the Project - Events parallels thread, but I would think $9 would be enough since Pathfinding is $8 while Lost Arts is at the same price as Barracks. With Innovation and Hireling in the Kingdom, I'd probably ignore a +1 Project at >$7.
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crj

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2019, 07:39:31 pm »
0

So... is Barracks overpriced?
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segura

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2019, 02:51:42 am »
+1

In that case, a +1 card project would be at least $9, and I might even put it at $10, since +1 card is even better when it's at the start of your turn.

This is not the Project - Events parallels thread, but I would think $9 would be enough since Pathfinding is $8 while Lost Arts is at the same price as Barracks. With Innovation and Hireling in the Kingdom, I'd probably ignore a +1 Project at >$7.
I disagree. Citadel is nearly always better than +1 Card (if you Throne a mere Pearl Diver Citadel is +1 Card and +1 Action) so Hireling as Project would probably be too expensive at $8 and would have to cost $7.
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ipofanes

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2019, 04:19:31 am »
0

So... is Barracks overpriced?

If there's another splitter in the kingdom, I think that Barracks will be ignored a lot of times. In games where people are clinging to their Necropolis, the price point is about ok. I would in most cases prefer Lost Arts to Barracks as it gives you the extra action exactly when needed.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 04:22:14 am by ipofanes »
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ipofanes

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2019, 04:27:11 am »
0

In that case, a +1 card project would be at least $9, and I might even put it at $10, since +1 card is even better when it's at the start of your turn.

This is not the Project - Events parallels thread, but I would think $9 would be enough since Pathfinding is $8 while Lost Arts is at the same price as Barracks. With Innovation and Hireling in the Kingdom, I'd probably ignore a +1 Project at >$7.
I disagree. Citadel is nearly always better than +1 Card (if you Throne a mere Pearl Diver Citadel is +1 Card and +1 Action) so Hireling as Project would probably be too expensive at $8 and would have to cost $7.
Hireling is $6 and is stackable. The Hireling effect is delayed by a shuffle and costs an extra action. To make up for it, one coin seems to be too little, but since it is harder to spike and not stackable I agree that it'd be ok at $7.
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Águia Branca

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2019, 04:49:07 am »
+2

I would in most cases prefer Lost Arts to Barracks as it gives you the extra action exactly when needed.
Apart from potential edge cases, this is never true. Barracks gives you the extra action at the best moment possible, which is at the start of your turn. The big advantage of Lost Arts is that it can give you multiple actions per turn. Sometimes the thing you put Lost Arts on is the only terminal you want to play, in which case it doesn't matter, but as far as timing is concerned, Lost Arts is never better than Barracks.
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ipofanes

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2019, 07:26:03 am »
+1

Smithy, Bridge, Faithful Hound and Goons are typical examples of cards that I like to be non-terminal rather than have this one extra action per turn. If there is only one terminal I want to play, I would bother with neither the Event nor the Project.
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crj

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2019, 03:10:25 pm »
0

Barracks gives you the extra action at the best moment possible, which is at the start of your turn.
Fishing Village, Coin of the Realm and Cards/Landmarks that give Villagers are alternative ways to get extra actions at the start of your turn. All of them are cheaper than the $6 that Barracks costs.
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segura

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2019, 02:16:23 am »
0

Barracks gives you the extra action at the best moment possible, which is at the start of your turn.
Fishing Village, Coin of the Realm and Cards/Landmarks that give Villagers are alternative ways to get extra actions at the start of your turn. All of them are cheaper than the $6 that Barracks costs.
Few of them draw. Barracks could perhaps get away with costing $5 but you could also argue that a lot of Actions that cost $5 should cost $6. Not really a big difference between $5 and $6 anyway.
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ipofanes

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2019, 03:47:28 am »
0

Quote
Landmarks that give Villagers

Did I miss something?
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crj

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2019, 08:17:45 am »
0

You missed the bit where I clearly meant Projects despite saying Landmarks.
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ackmondual

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2019, 04:08:51 pm »
0

interesting parallels with player tokens from Adventures as well....

A thought I had today (not very original I am sure)

Code: [Select]
Fair - Market Square :: $4 / $3    | Seaway $4
Barracks - Village :: $6 / $3       | Lost Arts $6
[s]Canal - Highway :: $7 / $5[/s]
NA - Lab :: NA / $5                 | Pathfinder $8
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Gubump

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2019, 11:23:09 am »
0

Considering Poacher is $4, a +$1 project would be $6 or $7. I'd put it at $6 since $ is much less useful than actions at the start of your turn.

+ each turn is strictly worse than Canal. Enough worse that I don't think a + project could exist at any price (too strong for , too weak for ).
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2019, 12:12:44 pm »
0

Not strictly worse, for two reasons: (a) debt-cost cards, and (b) trash-for-benefit cards.
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Gubump

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2019, 12:58:20 pm »
+2

Not strictly worse, for two reasons: (a) debt-cost cards, and (b) trash-for-benefit cards.

It's close enough to strictly better to be considered strictly better, though. Bridge would be roughly the same strength as Woodcutter otherwise, but that's obviously not the case.
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crj

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2019, 08:05:51 pm »
+1

The +Buy baked into Bridge amplifies the advantage of cost reduction over coin, though. Bridge is better than Woodcutter by a larger margin than Highway is better than Peddler.

(As well as debt-cost cards and trash-for-benefit, coin is also preferable when you want to buy an Event/Project.)
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segura

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2019, 11:48:17 am »
0

Not strictly worse, for two reasons: (a) debt-cost cards, and (b) trash-for-benefit cards.

It's close enough to strictly better to be considered strictly better, though. Bridge would be roughly the same strength as Woodcutter otherwise, but that's obviously not the case.
Applying the term "strictly better" for something which is not strictly better in more than just fringe cases is pretty dubious.
Just say something like "most of the times Canal is better the Project version of Key/Treasury" or whatever.
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Gubump

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2019, 06:59:23 pm »
+1

Not strictly worse, for two reasons: (a) debt-cost cards, and (b) trash-for-benefit cards.

It's close enough to strictly better to be considered strictly better, though. Bridge would be roughly the same strength as Woodcutter otherwise, but that's obviously not the case.
Applying the term "strictly better" for something which is not strictly better in more than just fringe cases is pretty dubious.
Just say something like "most of the times Canal is better the Project version of Key/Treasury" or whatever.

Cards that give +Buy, making cost reduction better than +: 53
Cards that want cards to cost more, making cost reduction worse than +: 9
Cards that cost Debt, making cost reduction worse than +: 9

The cases where cost reduction isn't strictly better than + is more of a fringe case than the cases where it is. 53 / 394 ~= 13%; and since there are 10 Kingdom cards in each game, the average game will have ~1.3 cards that give +Buys, making cost reduction better than +. Not exactly a fringe case. Especially when the cards that make cost reduction worse than + are combined 1/3rd as common as the cards that make cost reduction better.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 07:04:53 pm by Gubump »
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Project - card parallels
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2019, 08:15:50 pm »
0

Yes, but "strictly better" means better in any situation, according to the game theory definition. So one may be strictly better than the other on certain boards, because you are narrowing the possibilities. But as a whole, you cannot say either one is strictly better, even if there were only one possible board in which the roles were reversed.
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