Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?  (Read 1923 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ackmondual

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 460
  • Respect: +292
    • View Profile
+1

In a 2p game, one player could forfeit, but that's trickier in a 3p+, unless all but one player concedes.  Situations where due to luck, or opening the wrong way.. there's a "99% chance" that you lost, and are going through the motions at that point.  Yes, miracles can happen, but I'm more concerned with situations where you're proverbially "backed into corner" (or backed yourself into one).

  • Sea Hag "arms race"
    your opponent manages to force discard your own Sea Hag with theirs (although some say you can recover from 1.  However, NOT 2)
  • Others get Chapel and you don't
    Where others opened Chapel and you didn't.  Much more pronounced when things were just base game 1E.  Games back then were roughly divided into "Chapel games" vs. "no Chapel games".  Expansions, and even just base game 2E provided more variety so at least there were more ways to combat this
  • They buy out all or most of a pile that synergizes well with itself
    Examples include but not limited to Laboratory, and Minion
  • You buy one or more Scouts :p

Logged
Village, +2 Actions.  Village, +3 Actions.  Village, +4 Actions.  Village, +5 Actions.  Village, +6 Actions.  Village, +7 Actions.  Workers Village, +2 Buys, +8 Actions.  End Action Phase.  No Treasures to play.  No buy.  No Night cards to play

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11418
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +12217
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2019, 02:28:34 am »
0

5/2 on a Cathedral board.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

faust

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2783
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3894
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2019, 02:40:43 am »
+1

5/2 on a Cathedral board.
Surely 2/5 is even worse?
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

benedettosoxfan

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 56
  • Shuffle iT Username: benedettosoxfan
  • Respect: +129
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2019, 09:48:14 am »
0

Swindler is probably the biggest insta-loss culprit. If you open 5/2 with an important $5 cost on the board, having it turned into a duchy on the first shuffle is probably unrecoverable. Hitting a late traveler such as disciple will do it too. Warrior trashing warrior is a classic.

If I may go full "cool story bro," I had a game once where Forge was the only trashing on an absolutely gross board with tax and cursed gold and my opponent opened 7/2. Pretty sure I had to open nothing/silver and still had debt on turn 3. That was one instance I can remember where there was just no way on Earth I ever had a prayer.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8955
  • Respect: +9749
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2019, 10:06:19 am »
+5

Your opponent has more than 50% of all available VP.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

hypercube

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 139
  • Shuffle iT Username: xyrix
  • Respect: +319
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2019, 03:19:24 pm »
+2

5/2 on a Cathedral board.

markus' stats show that players with a 5/2 on a Cathedral board have a 53% win rate, exactly the same as their win rate on boards without Cathedral.
Logged
I have sigs off.

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2735
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3433
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2019, 03:54:13 pm »
+1

5/2 on a Cathedral board.

markus' stats show that players with a 5/2 on a Cathedral board have a 53% win rate, exactly the same as their win rate on boards without Cathedral.

I'm not sure you're reading the chart correctly (but maybe I'm not either) - seems to indicate a modest 5% decline in win rate?
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them

Commodore Chuckles

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1070
  • Shuffle iT Username: Commodore Chuckles
  • Respect: +1421
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2019, 06:15:28 pm »
+2

Your opponent has more than 50% of all available VP.

Edge case: there are trashing attacks on the board.
Logged

markus

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 288
  • Shuffle iT Username: markus
  • Respect: +426
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2019, 03:03:30 am »
+2

5/2 on a Cathedral board.

markus' stats show that players with a 5/2 on a Cathedral board have a 53% win rate, exactly the same as their win rate on boards without Cathedral.

I'm not sure you're reading the chart correctly (but maybe I'm not either) - seems to indicate a modest 5% decline in win rate?

You're both correct: the win rate with 5/2 or 2/5 on Cathedral boards is 53%, but that player tended to be the stronger one or first player more often in those almost 200 games. (That is just for random reasons.)
So actually that was not a better performance than expected. Due to the relatively small sample it's also well within the margin of error.

What we can conclude from that, however, that you're probably not losing like 40-60 or worse with 5/2 on Cathedral boards.
Logged

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2699
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2019, 11:39:41 am »
0

Your opponent has more than 50% of all available VP.

I think that's the only time I've ever resigned.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Commodore Chuckles

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1070
  • Shuffle iT Username: Commodore Chuckles
  • Respect: +1421
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2019, 09:16:02 am »
0

Some situations where I'd strongly consider resigning:

- Opponent Summons a powerful card on turn 1. (Chapel, Steward and Ambassador are the main ones that come to mind.)
- Cultist board, no trashing, no Gardens or Vineyard, opponent opens 5/2.
- Handsize attacks ruin your first two $5 hands.
- Similar to the above, opponent's Goons ruins your own first $6 hand.
- An important card misses the shuffle more than once for you, but not at all for your opponent. (Chapel, Steward and Ambassador again, as well as Travellers and some junkers.)
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1027
  • Respect: +738
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2019, 11:05:47 am »
0

Possession comes to mind. Getting to Possession 1 turn sooner means snowballing where the first there gets an increasing number of turns more than the opponent. E.g. on turn 10, you get 2 turns I get 1. On T11 you get 5 turns, I get 2.

Similarly I would say on a lot of boards, gaining Outpost at the right time from the Bm is just utterly broken. For high level play, most Bm boards have a viable Oupost engine (singleton enablers include Guide, Den of sin, Scheme, Wharf, Enchantress for instance). Once you both have reliable enough engines they get literally double the opportunities you do. There are so very few things can possibly hope to come back from that. Sometimes you can hope for a three pile, sometimes you get an enabler for a Megaturn, sometimes you get so crazy valuable card (e.g. Tournament) ... but facing half as many turns is just insanely overpowered.

Other setups include things like the opponent have two Knights in play to your zero with only one gain per turn with the other 8 Knights in the trash. You might be able to eke out a win here if you are close enough to already winning, but when your deck is going to eventually be decimated you need a VERY strong lead not to inevitably fall behind.

A last one is the opponent building a stronger Golden deck than you. Winning the Fort split 6/4 or 7/3 with Bishop out makes it very hard to compete if there are no other villages. Good luck piling out before they wrack up enough VP to be out of your league. Similar things can happen with Gardener/Amb (particularly with any kingdom green) or some Tomb setups (like winning the village split to run 2 Beggars/3 Chapels when your opponent cannot). Again you need to be far enough from winning that you cannot possibly force game end before they will inevitably surpass you in points.

None of these are all that common, but they all represent states of the game where you are both behind and falling further behind each turn. The sorts of terrible draws your opponent would need to give you a chance are exceedingly far out on the bell curve (e.g. >3 sigma). Worse, many of these setups require very little skill to play optimally so chances of opponent mistakes are very low. 

Thankfully all of this sort of thing tends to be rare.
Logged

theblankman

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 461
  • Respect: +382
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2019, 11:16:45 am »
+2

Situations where I resign: Any time starting a different game would be more fun for me.

"Will resign" is different from "already lost" but technically I haven't lost until the games ends. My opponent could make a huge mistake, or lose their connection. I guess if I cared about rating I'd play everything to the end for those little chances. Instead I play rated because that's where the best opponents are, and resign whenever it's time for the next game.
Logged
it's a shame that full-random is the de facto standard

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1421
  • Respect: +1584
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2019, 11:42:11 am »
+2

Situations where I resign: Any time starting a different game would be more fun for me.
It feels like that's a little antisocial unless you also consider how much fun your opponent might be having?
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11418
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +12217
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2019, 11:45:11 am »
+3

Situations where I resign: Any time starting a different game would be more fun for me.
It feels like that's a little antisocial unless you also consider how much fun your opponent might be having?

It's more than a little antisocial to pressure your opponent into continuing a game where you're having fun and he isn't.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Marcory

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 711
  • Respect: +1156
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2019, 03:08:54 pm »
+5

If you are starving to death and your opponent has food in front of him or her.
Logged

hhelibebcnofnena

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 523
  • he/him
  • Respect: +402
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2019, 05:02:46 pm »
0

If you are starving to death and your opponent has food in front of him or her.

You could always cheat here...
If IRL, reach out and steal the food.
If online, pretend you're thinking about your next move and get food. They don't have to know you left...
Logged
Hydrogen Helium Lithium Beryllium Boron Carbon Nitrogen Oxygen Fluorine Neon Sodium

Marcory

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 711
  • Respect: +1156
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2019, 05:31:08 pm »
0

If you are starving to death and your opponent has food in front of him or her.

You could always cheat here...
If IRL, reach out and steal the food.
If online, pretend you're thinking about your next move and get food. They don't have to know you left...

If you're going to cheat, you can just grab all the Provinces yourself and walk away (or hack ShIT's code to let you win). I'm pretty sure that anyone who thinks resigning is a legitimate option has already decided not to cheat.
Logged

Commodore Chuckles

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1070
  • Shuffle iT Username: Commodore Chuckles
  • Respect: +1421
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2019, 06:15:17 pm »
+2

This is exactly why Feast shouldn't have been cut.
Logged

hhelibebcnofnena

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 523
  • he/him
  • Respect: +402
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2019, 08:29:23 pm »
0

If you are starving to death and your opponent has food in front of him or her.

You could always cheat here...
If IRL, reach out and steal the food.
If online, pretend you're thinking about your next move and get food. They don't have to know you left...

If you're going to cheat, you can just grab all the Provinces yourself and walk away (or hack ShIT's code to let you win). I'm pretty sure that anyone who thinks resigning is a legitimate option has already decided not to cheat.

Why stop at the Provinces? Why not the Colonies, Duchies, and Estates too? And while you're at it, you can go to the box and take all the alt-vp cards as well (make sure not to forget Silk Road)!
Logged
Hydrogen Helium Lithium Beryllium Boron Carbon Nitrogen Oxygen Fluorine Neon Sodium

Marcory

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 711
  • Respect: +1156
    • View Profile
Re: Scenarios where one could reasonably say they've already lost?
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2019, 07:35:21 am »
0

This is exactly why Feast shouldn't have been cut.

But there's still Banquet, and if you're truly desperate you can eat Rats, Magpies, or even your Trusty Steed. If you have money, you can visit the Farmers' Market, and if you're willing to work, there are various Farm cards as well as Wild Hunt. It just depends on the kingdom.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.083 seconds with 21 queries.