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Author Topic: Combo: Remake + City  (Read 7030 times)

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GendoIkari

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Combo: Remake + City
« on: March 11, 2012, 02:07:34 pm »
+3

Ok, so I kind of stumbled upon this without realizing it. One problem with City is that if you buy nothing buy Cities, until they power up, you have spent 10 $5 buys on expensive Villages that do nothing at all for your deck. Then they get powered up, right about the time that your opponent buys his 5th or 6th Province.

Remake gets piles emptied really quick. The basic idea is this: Always open Remake/Silver. Then Remake Estates into Silvers, Silvers into Remakes, and Remakes into Cities. Buy City or Remake or Silver. Doing this, you can empty Remake, or City, or both, pretty quickly.

As with probably any City combo, this is going to depend a lot on what your opponent does. If he buys a couple Cities or Remakes, great! All the faster. Another great thing with this is the ability to power up your Cities mid-turn. Nothing more annoying than buying the last City, just to give your opponent first turn with any powered-up Cities he may have. But with this, you can play a City, then Remake something to empty a pile (or 2!) and then play more Cities all at once.

I'm uncertain about several aspects of specific technique. I think early on, you should prefer a Remake to a City with $5. Emptying the City pile isn't all that important, and it will take longer than emptying the Remake pile. But if you have 6-7 Cities, and you get the Remakes emptied, you will have the rest of the cities super-quick, quite possibly on one turn! I don't think you want to trash 2 Coppers for nothing any time you can. Trash a few, but not all of them. You need money, and your Silvers are turning into Remakes. Level 2 Cities suck when there's no money in your deck. As soon as you hit level 2, though, you will be drawing your entire deck each turn, and you should be at most 1-2 turns away from level 3. Also, if your opponent isn't also buying Cities, you will have more than enough, so you can Remake a couple into Gold (or into Border Village, gaining Remake or City).

Finally, ending the game. Once you have level 3 Cities, the game probably won't last very long. From here, it all depends on what your opponent has been doing. If he hasn't begun greening yet, or just recently started, you should be able to buy a Province (or Colony) or 2, and then empty a third pile super-quick, for a small victory. If he has a few Provinces already, watch out for a third pile that's low! Don't buy anything from it. Just get those green cards. Any VP's will be good; you don't need to worry too much about clogging. You should be able to overcome a 5/3 Province split even.

Sample games: Like I said, I stumbled on this by accident. After winning with City/Remake, I searched my logs, and found that I've played 6 games where both were available... and won 5 of them. These 3 are probably the best examples because they all involve the Remake pile being emptied:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120309-173444-840987c3.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120309-215451-45ccc251.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120225-215453-2df0d459.html

Works with:
Colony games - longer games means more time to use those level 3 Cities.
Opponent's buying of Remake or City.
$2 cost Kingdom Cards - on a turn you play Remake, you might not have $3 to spend. Buying a $2 is a great way to have more fuel to get more Silvers into your deck.
Cursing attacks - Remakes can handle the Curses ok, and anything that slows your opponent is great for this.
Monument/Bishop/Goons - Once those Cities are powered up, even to level 2, a few of any of those cards in your deck will be huge.

Doesn't work with:
Super-fast boards - This combo isn't going to compete with Quarry-Chapel-Grand Market, or anything where your opponent can get more than half of the points super-quick.
I'm sure there's more I haven't thought of...
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Catalytic

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Re: Combo: Remake + City
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2012, 07:18:16 am »
0

An interesting idea, but I am not sure that it is feasible (at least in a Province game).  Some of my worries first and then some help at the end.

1.  As you mentioned, knowing what is in your deck is vital here.  If you destroy your economy those activated Cities will not mean much when you are drawing $2 and $3 hands.  But, of course, you have to destroy your economy to activate those Cities (since you need to be buying and trashing Silvers).  So, the deck pulls in opposite ways and must be played extremely carefully.

2.  I tried out your thought on $2 and thought a $2 like Duchess where you could build up a little economy once you emptied the Remake pile would smooth out the economy problem.  But the $2 seemed to gum up the works rather than help.  You are constantly remaking your $2 action into a Silver because you need more Silvers to remake into Remakes. So, I am not sure a good $2 helps either (even with a $2 buy it might be better to pass).  Now, just using your $2 buys on $2s with the idea of remaking them up to Silvers is fine, but then you are bloating your deck somewhat and making it harder to find Remakes and pair it with the Silvers / Cities (once you want to 2xRemake).  After a few tests, I am not sure that the $2 buys helped the deck much and possibly hurts (but I am unsure here).

3.  My biggest problem is that it took 14-15 turns to empty the Remake pile.  (Someone far better than myself might be able to improve on that somewhat, but I imagine not by much.)  A standard BM + Enabler deck should be at 4 Provinces by this point.  Further, the City deck you have put together is not built for a megaturn (yet), so if the BM player can chip away another Province or a couple of Duchies he should have an big lead before the City deck kicks into high gear.  So, I am not sure that the deck can consistently beat simple money-based strategies.

4.  This deck will get blown up in the face of hand size attacks.  In your early turns you need to be both Remaking Silvers into Remakes and buying more Silver (once your Estates are remade).  Later turns need a full hand to 2xRemake.  So, you need full hands to pull this off at least until you empty out the Remake pile.  If you get hit with Militia / Cutpurse / Ghost Ship / Goons / etc., I think this deck is stuck in netural.

Some good news:

1.  Your opponent's Masq / Ambassador is not a problem; if they are feeding you Estates then you should be pleased since those will become Silvers in no time with a fairly thin deck and save you from having to buy Silvers.  That the deck is helped by your opponent playing some of the best cards in the game is a boon for the deck.

2.  Remake and City are such great cards that you will almost always have help emptying them out (which you mention).  Remake is an great $4 opener and your opponent even taking one out of the supply will be a help since it gives you once less to buy (or Remake a Silver into).  And with City there is always that psychological factor; once the Cities start emptying you hate to miss out on them, so a buy or two by your opponent will aid the Level 3 activation.  So, there is some hope that it could work.

3.  Finally, your point about a Colony game is dead on.  In a Colony game, you have time to empty Remakes, pick up Cities and then build up a reliable engine.  So, reemphasizing this as a strategy in a Colony game rather than a Province game seems to me to be the way to go.

I hope these thoughts help and thank you for sharing an interesting strategy.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 11:13:25 am by Catalytic »
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Re: Combo: Remake + City
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2012, 12:05:21 pm »
0

Question: How does this fare vs a Bridge/NV strategy? Does it matter whether with/without Colonies?
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mischiefmaker

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Re: Combo: Remake + City
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2012, 03:10:10 pm »
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Agree with Catalytic; I think this strategy is too slow for a Province game. In your first linked game, you buy Province on turn 12, 13, 15, and 16 and have no Estates, which probably loses to Big Money even without a decent enabler, and this is with your opponent buying 4 (!) Remakes and Havens available to smooth out your draw. In the second, you bought your first Province on turn 14, even though your opponent bought 3 Remakes and 3 Tunnels, helping you empty both piles.

The strategy might be good enough to catch up in an otherwise boring Colony game, but even then I'm not sure. Your opponent can build up an economy and snipe 3-4 Cities without too much trouble, and then their deck is going to be roughly as good as yours plus they have another 4-5 turns' worth of buying cards; that's a pretty big lead to catch up to. Something to look out for, though, in a Colony game; if you see your opponent stocking up on Remakes, make sure you get a few Cities before he snaps them all up!

I agree that this strategy will play well against an Ambassadoring opponent, but not against Masquerade (since that is a very strong BM enabler). This is assuming there's an engine to be built; otherwise I'm fairly sure Remake into BM will beat Ambassador just as well.

Also, worth pointing out that you generally will not have much help emptying the Remake pile -- it was mentioned at least three times in the "Cards you only need one copy of" thread.

Pretty sure that a well-played Bridge/NV strategy will crush this, but I think it's tricky (Remake player can go for Cities earlier/buy NV on the $2s; Bridge/NV player can choose not to empty those piles and/or go for a couple L3 Cities of his own).

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Bounciness

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Re: Combo: Remake + City
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2012, 02:58:41 am »
+1

I remember reading this article when it was posted, then saw an opportunity to use it. On an fairly boring board, it had Remake/City, and I even used Workshop to speed up getting Remakes, and Outpost once everything got going. I also found a use for the formidable Scout as a jumping point for Remake to make Cities, and Inn also helped at one point. So, basically a bunch of useless cards to a BM player combined together to make this strategy work.

Got 4 Provinces and 1 Duchy by Turn 15, and won by 1 point against a Masquerade/Remake/BM opponent:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/11/game-20120811-165610-99f87e5d.html

All I could think the whole time was "Oh God, why I am doing this." But hey, it worked out here, and there's a slight chance it may be the dominant strategy if done correctly (maybe getting an outpost earlier), but I have a feeling a simple Masquerade/BM would still beat it on this board.
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mgallop

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Re: Combo: Remake + City
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2012, 02:38:53 am »
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I remember that game! I was pretty impressed with it, tho I played pretty far from optimally, since I vacillated for the first few turns between something cool and Masq BM, before deciding against cool stuff. Anyway, well played.
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dondon151

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Re: Combo: Remake + City
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2012, 03:30:43 am »
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All I could think the whole time was "Oh God, why I am doing this." But hey, it worked out here, and there's a slight chance it may be the dominant strategy if done correctly (maybe getting an outpost earlier), but I have a feeling a simple Masquerade/BM would still beat it on this board.

Keep in mind that an engine is not about getting to 4 Provinces; if you can sustain the green, you can still come back with Duchies...

Outpost was definitely key in your match, though.
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Re: Combo: Remake + City
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2012, 11:27:37 am »
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I remember that game! I was pretty impressed with it, tho I played pretty far from optimally, since I vacillated for the first few turns between something cool and Masq BM, before deciding against cool stuff. Anyway, well played.

Haha that's cool you remember it!  :)

It was one of those times where I think of a interesting strategy on the fly, and it actually worked. I mean, who would have thought buying a Workshop to help activate your Cities would be a good idea? That just felt wrong.
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mgallop

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Re: Combo: Remake + City
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2012, 11:57:48 am »
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The workshop was huge as it let you continue to build your economy while remaking everything. I think the strategy probably needs something like workshop/ironworks to let you go off quickly enough on province games.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Combo: Remake + City
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2012, 12:15:07 pm »
+1

I remember reading this article when it was posted, then saw an opportunity to use it. On an fairly boring board, it had Remake/City, and I even used Workshop to speed up getting Remakes, and Outpost once everything got going. I also found a use for the formidable Scout as a jumping point for Remake to make Cities, and Inn also helped at one point. So, basically a bunch of useless cards to a BM player combined together to make this strategy work.

Got 4 Provinces and 1 Duchy by Turn 15, and won by 1 point against a Masquerade/Remake/BM opponent:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/11/game-20120811-165610-99f87e5d.html

All I could think the whole time was "Oh God, why I am doing this." But hey, it worked out here, and there's a slight chance it may be the dominant strategy if done correctly (maybe getting an outpost earlier), but I have a feeling a simple Masquerade/BM would still beat it on this board.

So glad it worked!  :D

But I don't think it was City that won you this game... you gained so many Scouts this game, how could you have lost??  ;)
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