Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [All]

Author Topic: Indian Reservation  (Read 889 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mandioca15

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13
  • Respect: +7
    • View Profile
Indian Reservation
« on: March 18, 2019, 05:12:24 pm »
0

This is my first post on here.

I recently designed a fan expansion for Dominion, with a Wild West theme. One of the cards I was thinking of adding to this is as follows:

Indian Reservation [Action-Duration] ($6)
Set aside a non-Duration card under this.
Now and at the start of your next turn,
invoke the set aside card.

By invoke, I mean "do what the card says". For example, setting aside a Silver would give you +$2 now, and +$2 at the start of your next turn. Setting aside a Smithy would give you +3 cards now, and +3 cards at the start of your next turn.

Invoking doesn't mean you use an action, so you would start your reserved Smithy turn with 8 cards and 1 action.

Two questions regarding this:

1) Is this hideously broken?
2) If not, what should the price be? I have discussed this a bit with Udzu - he reckons it should be $5 because it is comparable with Crown, but I think it should be higher because of the Duration effect.

Any thoughts?
Logged

AJD

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2962
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +3785
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2019, 05:44:58 pm »
+4

Donald X tried a version of this for Seaside and it was too weak to cost $3. That one didn't work on Treasures and this one does, so it might reach the point of being worth $3 or $4. But expect this to be weaker than it sounds. In particular, note that the Duration effect makes this weaker than Crown—Crown plays a card twice now, while this one plays it once now and once later. And in general it's better to play a card now than later! This also takes a card out of your deck for a turn: you can Crown a card on this turn and then play it normally on the next turn, but you can't do that with this card.

(Also, I don't think you need "invoke", you can just say "play".)
Logged

Neirai the Forgiven

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 333
  • Respect: +129
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2019, 06:56:28 pm »
+2

To echo AJD, I'd write this something like this:

First Nation [Action-Duration] $4.
Set aside a non-Duration card from your hand.
Now and at the start of your next turn,
play the set aside card.

You don't need to set aside the card face down, especially since you're about to play it immediately, making it not a secret to anyone what card it is and what it does.

I renamed the card because I'm Canadian and politics. (First Nation is the legal term for (most) Indian uhhh groups.)

Technically, this also allows you to play Victory cards and Curses. They would do nothing, but they'd be in play-ish.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 06:59:42 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
Logged

ClouduHieh

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 483
  • Shuffle iT Username: ClouduHieh
  • Respect: +83
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2019, 05:07:56 pm »
0

Now here’s the question do gain the set aside card? If you did then you would just play province and the game would be over lickity split. Also if that wasn’t the case what would happen to the set aside card. Would it just stay set aside for the rest of the game? Would it go back to the supply, or trashed. Since it doesn’t specify it sounds like you would need a new pile. The set aside pile. There’s a trash pile, your deck pile, your discard pile, a supply pile, the tavern mat pile. And now there would have to be a set aside pile.

So it needs to be specified and if it is gained it should say set aside a non duration action card. Cause as it is now there’s going to be a pile of cards set aside.

Of course if you decided to go with a set aside pile you would probably need to create a few other cards that would work with a set aside pile. Which would be like adding new rules to dominion. Which is fine. It wouldn’t be the first fan based expansion to have new rules. I remember one called ice age that had ice tokens. There were a few similar in name only to my snowline. But that whole ice token concept was very creative. But seemed like it would make the game very lengthy, so I chose not to go that route with my snowline.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 05:20:52 pm by ClouduHieh »
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7913
  • Respect: +8721
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2019, 05:16:14 pm »
0

ClouduHieh brings up an interesting point.. I think we all interpreted the text as "Set aside a non-Duration card from your hand", but it doesn't specify where the set-aside card comes from! If it is indeed intended to be set aside from the Supply, instead of from your hand, then it is a very different (and much stronger) card!

If you set it aside from your hand, then it's just a weaker Throne Room. If you set it aside from the supply, it's more like a duration-double Band of Misfits. And indeed the text would need to specify what to do with the played card... I think by default, you would just clean it up to your discard pile like other played cards; which would get you the card without technically "gaining" int... but then again, the card says "invoke" instead of "play"; so it probably wouldn't go to your in-play area.

So what is the intention?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

mandioca15

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13
  • Respect: +7
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2019, 07:10:00 pm »
0

I meant "set aside a card from your hand". Setting aside a Victory card wouldn't do anything, naturally, but it does mean it might miss the shuffle.

The intention of the card is to turn any non-Duration card into a Duration card. I don't see why it's strictly worse than a Throne Room: we're told that Wharf is one of the strongest $5 cards there is because of its Duration effect. You start your next turn with 7 cards and an extra Buy. Surely converting a card into a Duration card is more valuable than $4 on many occasions?

Once Indian Reservation has finished resolving (i.e. next turn), both it and the card you set aside go into your discard pile.

Taking any card from the Supply and putting it under Indian Reservation, gaining it once it finishes resolving, is an intriguing idea. I hadn't thought of that interpretation of my original wording...
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7913
  • Respect: +8721
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2019, 07:59:48 pm »
+3

If Wharf were not a Duration; it would be:

+4 Cards
+2 Buys

This is a much stronger version of Hunting Grounds; a $6 card.

Also look at Caravan vs Laboratory. Caravan costs $4 instead of $5 because you get that extra card next turn instead of this turn.

Duration’s as a whole are weaker than the same thing in non-Duration form. This is both because it is generally better to get something this turn than it is to get the same thing next turn; and because by staying out in play; Duration cards miss the shuffle more. You also need twice as many of them if you want to play one every turn.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 08:09:07 pm by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

shraeye

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 665
  • Shuffle iT Username: shraeye
  • More Graph Theory please
  • Respect: +282
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2019, 10:01:43 pm »
+2

So I'm totally out of the loop dominion-strategy-wise, but I can at least say that the card HAS to be renamed.  That's racist, yo.
Logged

ClouduHieh

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 483
  • Shuffle iT Username: ClouduHieh
  • Respect: +83
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2019, 10:58:11 pm »
+2

It’s just a game. Also his reservation card is for a Wild West theme, although did they have reservations for native Americans in the Wild West? Like I said it’s just a game, racism did not even enter my mind when I saw the name of the card.

And I guess if it really bothers a lot of users you can always go with nerai s suggestion.
Logged

shraeye

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 665
  • Shuffle iT Username: shraeye
  • More Graph Theory please
  • Respect: +282
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2019, 11:18:02 pm »
+2

I didn't want to stir things up a lot; but every time this showed up on my feed it bothered me.  So now I've said something and I feel better.
Logged

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2677
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3336
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2019, 01:28:46 am »
+1

You're naming your card after genocide camps, with a racial slur to boot. Maybe don't "it's just a" to that kind of criticism.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7913
  • Respect: +8721
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2019, 05:31:00 am »
+1

I for one had no idea until know about the negative/racist implications of that term; so I have been educated today.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

ahyangyi

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 88
  • Respect: +22
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2019, 07:00:30 am »
+1

Just avoid that name. Political consideration aside, it's also anachronistic, as the game is largely medieval (at most renaissance) in flavor.

Also, you probably want to phrase it this way:

Play a card from your hand, then set it aside. If you did, play it again at the beginning of your next turn.

Since by default, if you play something, it will be discarded in the cleanup phase. The wording of Prince is a reference point.
Logged

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3375
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2636
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2019, 02:12:24 pm »
+2

Can we please keep RSP in RSP? This is a horrible welcome to mandioca15.  He posts here and is instantly called a racist?  He wanted discussion on the card, not politics.  The discussion on the card's name is fine to have, but not here.

Mandioca15, welcome to the forums!
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

mandioca15

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13
  • Respect: +7
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2019, 02:36:06 pm »
+3

I wasn't aware that the name might cause upset. You learn something new every day... Will try to think of a less controversial name. The name was meant to be a nod to Reserve cards, since you effectively play a card twice, as happens with cards of that type.

Thanks for the welcome, sudgy.
Logged

raerae

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 94
  • Shuffle iT Username: raerae
  • Respect: +77
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2019, 03:07:36 pm »
0

Can we please keep RSP in RSP? This is a horrible welcome to mandioca15.  He posts here and is instantly called a racist?  He wanted discussion on the card, not politics.  The discussion on the card's name is fine to have, but not here.

Mandioca15, welcome to the forums!

I don't think anybody called OP racist, just the name of the card. That seemed clear to me. Seems like a cool card beyond the name.
Logged

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1155
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1072
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2019, 03:17:30 pm »
0

Just checking: if I play this card and select Band of Misfits, and use Band of Misfits as a Duration, this card's Duration effect is to play Band of Misfits from the play area, right?
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7913
  • Respect: +8721
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2019, 03:26:31 pm »
0

Just checking: if I play this card and select Band of Misfits, and use Band of Misfits as a Duration, this card's Duration effect is to play Band of Misfits from the play area, right?

I don’t think BoM would ever get moved into play; this it would never become the card it is being played as. BoM expects itself to be in play when following its instructions. If it is instead set aside; it will have lost track. See recent thread in rules forum. This is assuming that he keeps the card as “invoke” and not “play”. Of course he could also borrow Necromancer wording and say “play the card; leaving it set aside”.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7913
  • Respect: +8721
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2019, 03:28:53 pm »
+1

Quote from Donald X on his attempt to make basically this same card for Seaside:

Quote
There was a now-and-later Throne Room variant. Play an Action, play it again next turn. It was both confusing and weak. What if you use it on a duration card? How long does it stay on the table? It could have said "non-duration," but that's pretty sad in a set with 8 duration cards. And did I mention it was weak? It left before development started.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

ahyangyi

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 88
  • Respect: +22
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2019, 03:41:02 pm »
0

Still, that was the Seaside time. An old time when you think about that. Maybe things have changed.

We now have Prince and Summon, albeit both being Promo cards. Apparently "play a card next turn" is now a workable mechanism.

Anyway, if this is weak for $3, many we need to do something about it.

What about this:

Quote
You may play a card. If you did, set it aside. If you did, play it again at the start of your next turn.
If no card is set aside this way, instead get +1 card +1 action at the start of your next turn.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 03:47:28 pm by ahyangyi »
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7913
  • Respect: +8721
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2019, 03:51:04 pm »
+2

It just occurred to me that that the net effects of this card are very similar to this other card:


+1 Action
At the start of your next turn, +1 Card, +1 Action.
This turn, you may top-deck one action card when you discard it from play.

“Play a card” this turn is basically the same as +1 Action. Play a set-aside Card next turn is basically the same as +1 Card, +1 Action next turn.

So it’s like a Ghost Town combined with a Scheme. But a little weaker than that because of restrictions.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

ahyangyi

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 88
  • Respect: +22
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2019, 11:54:43 pm »
0

Indeed. Duration throne rooms are not really throne rooms since they don't enable you to play a card twice in a turn, which is part of throne room's strength.
Logged

segura

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 208
  • Respect: +73
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2019, 03:04:26 am »
0

Quote
You may play a card. If you did, set it aside. If you did, play it again at the start of your next turn.
If no card is set aside this way, instead get +1 card +1 action at the start of your next turn.
This is a nice buff as there are situations in which you can only Throne Treasures and a Ghost Town effect is preferable to e.g. +2$ (if you Throne a Silver) next turn.
Anyway, you need a non-Duration restriction. I guess Duration-Throning Durations is feasible (note that Ghost is far easier to track as the doubling occurs entirely during the next turn and is not "spread" over two turns like with this card) but the tracking mess it creates is simply not worth it.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 03:05:44 am by segura »
Logged

ahyangyi

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 88
  • Respect: +22
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2019, 04:05:40 am »
0

Without a non-duration restriction this plays the "on play" effect twice and the "next turn" effect once.

Usually it sounds fine, but then there is stuff like Archive that makes it simply doesn't work.

Or we can say "you may set it aside when it is discarded from play this turn" or something, so you can actually play that Archive again only if it fails to archive any card.
Logged

segura

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 208
  • Respect: +73
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2019, 09:00:32 am »
0

Without a non-duration restriction this plays the "on play" effect twice and the "next turn" effect once.
I don't follow how your wording implies that.

All I know is that a "play X this and next turn" TR variant has issues with Durations, as DXV noted years ago. These issues are principally solvable but not worth it ... and neither is doing a card that DXV has already nixed. Just because this, unlike the card that has been playtested during Seaside, can also Throne Nights and Treasures doesn't make it suddenly good.
Logged

Neirai the Forgiven

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 333
  • Respect: +129
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2019, 10:15:02 am »
+4

I know there was a request for us not to talk about the name, but I think there's a possibility to learn here. Here's my thoughts on the matter.

For "credentials" I ran a long-running modding series for Civ V focused on indigenous peoples and only got called a racist once. ;)

In the U.S.:
The legal/agreed term for indigenous people (based on the majority of American treaties signed) is "Native American". I can't comment much on the nuances of the term in legal use, I'm Canadian.

In Canada:
The legal/agreed term for (most) indigenous people (based on the majority of British treaties signed) is "First Nation". Additionally, when you go to a reserve in Canada, you're actually entering a... sort of... other country. First Nations in Canada enjoy a certain degree of sovereignty. Technically it's like being a country of your own where everyone is a dual-citizen; you could be Blackfoot, but then (assuming you live on a Canadian reserve) Canadian at the same time. First Nations can have their own laws, legal government bodies, even have absolute rulers via birth heredity, as long as those laws don't get overturned by Canada directly (which is rare, but say, slavery is not allowed) and of course illegal actions involving Canadians (which is the First Nations members as well) are also going to get prosecuted by Canada if they get attention.

There's a bunch of extra comments in the above which may sound judgemental (hereditary rulers, slaves) but those are actual cases that I brought up to show the variances in how much sovereignty you have.

So how does this pertain to this card? I'd say this card is reminiscent of Native Village and that's the whole reason for the current name. So I'd suggest "Native Freehold" or something of the sort, using "Native-" with some sort of idea of independent self-rule, possibly shared by agreement with you, the player.

Logged

mail-mi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1166
  • Shuffle iT Username: mail-mi
  • Come play some Forum Mafia with us!
  • Respect: +1208
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2019, 02:38:06 pm »
+3

To make the card a little stronger, you could have it play the card twice this turn and once next turn. Like this:

You may play a nonDuration action card from your hand twice. If you do, set it aside. Play the set aside card at the start of your next turn.
$5 (or maybe $6)
Logged
I currently imagine mail-mi wearing a dark trenchcoat and a bowler hat, hunched over a bit, toothpick in his mouth, holding a gun in his pocket.  One bead of sweat trickling down his nose.

'And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise." - Moroni 7:41, the Book of Mormon

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5292
  • Respect: +2725
    • View Profile
Re: Indian Reservation
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2019, 04:20:24 am »
0

It's pretty close to Scheme as written in the OP. But it has +1 action over Scheme, but is more restricted in its target.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.
Pages: 1 2 [All]
 

Page created in 0.095 seconds with 20 queries.