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Author Topic: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds  (Read 1284 times)

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Asper

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2019, 03:59:30 pm »
0

I think you all are assuming your personal dislike for Hexes is universally understood across most of Dominion. I like them, and many others do too. I have friends that hate most attacks but love Hexes.
You will also find lots of people who name Alchemy as their favourite expansion. It's up to you to ask yourself whether that devalidates the general reception of Alchemy being one of the worst. I for one can't remember seeing similar threads about Adventures, Guilds or Renaissance gain this kind of traction.

JW

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2019, 04:06:41 pm »
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I've noticed there is no Cursed Village replacement. This one seems hardest to give a fixed effect since it makes it trivial to play around it and ignore the penalty.

Yes. The thematic choice for Cursed Village would be to gain a curse when you gain it. But that or even gaining a copper would dramatically weaken the card because Cursed Village wants action heavy decks. Most non-junking hexes can be played around such that you’d be able to know that you’ll be able to avoid them. Locusts is an exception but that’s too harsh, because if you bought Cursed Village after having drawn your deck it would be immediately trashed!  Maybe “when you gain Cursed Village, you may reveal a Curse from your hand. If you don’t, gain a Curse” could work, but would still probably be too harsh. 
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trivialknot

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2019, 09:07:28 am »
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I like hexes too, but I don't need to agree with the OP's premise to give constructive feedback.  This argument seems like a non-issue.

Instead of dropping Fool, you could just change the boons to vanilla bonuses.  e.g. receive 3 boons -> +3 cards, and Lost in the Woods lets you discard a card to draw a card.  I think that would be a pretty reasonable card.  I wouldn't pair it with lucky coin though, that's just asking for big money games.

I don't really think Cobbler needs a buff, and adding +Action is probably very strong.  I'd be worried that if it's too strong then it 3-piles too fast.

Giving +Buy to Raider sounds fine.  I don't really like Raider that much even when it's good though.

I'd pair Leprechaun with Poverty or Envy, preserving the phenomenon where you're afraid to play Leprechaun if you're not getting a wish because it might ruin your turn.

I'd pair Cursed Village with Misery or Envy.  Misery only really hurts if you're the only player getting Cursed Village.  Envy probably doesn't hurt at all in the kind of deck that likes Cursed Village, but sometimes it might.  Or maybe just forget hexes and take your -1 coin token.

I'd predict that your take on Tormentor is very centralizing.  I mean, junkers often are, because you don't want to be the only player gaining them.  But you know, if a card makes you jump through hoops to junk your opponent, often what that means is you're just going to spend more of the game jumping through hoops.  And it's not like Idol, because you often don't want silver in your deck, but imps are good in almost any deck.  But it might be fine even if it's centralizing--Imps are interactive.  I'd test it to see if it has a runaway winner problem.
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JW

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2019, 01:51:56 pm »
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I don't really think Cobbler needs a buff, and adding +Action is probably very strong.  I'd be worried that if it's too strong then it 3-piles too fast.

How strong is adding +Action to Cobbler? Gaining a $4 to the top of your deck is the effect of Armory, a $4 cost action. Drawing a card is the effect of playing a Laboratory from your hand, a $5 cost action. So Cobbler's effect can be thought of as non-terminal Armory + Laboratory. In contrast, getting an extra action is the effect of a Village. So the revision improves Cobbler's effect to that of non-terminal Armory + Laboratory + Village.  I also doubt this take on Cobbler would lead to particularly fast 3-piles, because you need two Cobblers to gain one card per turn.

Quote
I'd pair Leprechaun with Poverty or Envy, preserving the phenomenon where you're afraid to play Leprechaun if you're not getting a wish because it might ruin your turn.

I'd pair Cursed Village with Misery or Envy.  Misery only really hurts if you're the only player getting Cursed Village.  Envy probably doesn't hurt at all in the kind of deck that likes Cursed Village, but sometimes it might.  Or maybe just forget hexes and take your -1 coin token.

The point of removing Hexes is to reduce the complexity of the cards. With that in mind, Envy and Misery are out. Cursed Village could be worth -1 VP, if that doesn't cause rules confusion. That may be too large a penalty.  Leprechaun giving Poverty would make its drawback more severe in decks that draw and want to play it for the Wish than in money-heavy decks that never intend to play it for the Wish. That seems backwards.
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trivialknot

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2019, 02:27:02 pm »
+1

How strong is adding +Action to Cobbler? Gaining a $4 to the top of your deck is the effect of Armory, a $4 cost action. Drawing a card is the effect of playing a Laboratory from your hand, a $5 cost action. So Cobbler's effect can be thought of as non-terminal Armory + Laboratory. In contrast, getting an extra action is the effect of a Village. So the revision improves Cobbler's effect to that of non-terminal Armory + Laboratory + Village.  I also doubt this take on Cobbler would lead to particularly fast 3-piles, because you need two Cobblers to gain one card per turn.
The situation I was imagining is, what if Cobbler is the only village, and you really need that village?  So you get more Cobblers than you really want, and there go the piles.  I mean, it might be interesting, and perhaps not any worse than University.  If you test it I'd love to hear about it.

The point of removing Hexes is to reduce the complexity of the cards. With that in mind, Envy and Misery are out. Cursed Village could be worth -1 VP, if that doesn't cause rules confusion. That may be too large a penalty.  Leprechaun giving Poverty would make its drawback more severe in decks that draw and want to play it for the Wish than in money-heavy decks that never intend to play it for the Wish. That seems backwards.
Misery and Envy are complex?  I never would have thought so, not on their own.  Anyway, it doesn't seem like you should constrain yourself to copying the hexes exactly.  For Leprechaun, you could ignore the "envious" state, and just say "for the rest of this turn, golds give only $1".  -1 VP is probably a close-enough approximation of Misery. I doubt that it's too large, given my experience with landmarks like Obelisk.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2019, 12:18:09 am »
+2

Is Cobbler a dud? I really enjoy it as a card and its power level seems fine.

Agree with every Doom card being replaced with non hex effects. I don't even think they all need to be attacks.

I'm much more ok with Boons but I'd prefer more Druid like cards that are less random (between plays, not between games).
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 12:21:53 am by NoMoreFun »
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JW

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2019, 02:16:34 pm »
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Misery and Envy are complex?  I never would have thought so, not on their own.  Anyway, it doesn't seem like you should constrain yourself to copying the hexes exactly.  For Leprechaun, you could ignore the "envious" state, and just say "for the rest of this turn, golds give only $1".  -1 VP is probably a close-enough approximation of Misery. I doubt that it's too large, given my experience with landmarks like Obelisk.

Misery is complex (because it uses a double-sided state to avoid endless stacking), but "-1 VP" is simple. Good point on Envy, Leprechaun could just be "For the rest of this turn, Silver and Gold make $1" to imitate Envy.
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Awaclus

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2019, 04:52:15 am »
+3

Are you saying that Vampire is needlessly hexy?
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Holger

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2019, 09:18:07 am »
+3

Misery is complex (because it uses a double-sided state to avoid endless stacking), but "-1 VP" is simple.
Was it done to avoid stacking? It's rather unlikely to receive Misery much more than twice per game, you'd need to be hexed more than 24 times on average. I thought it was done this way mainly to avoid the need for "negative VP" tokens. 6 double-sided cards are much cheaper than including tokens just for one card.
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