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Author Topic: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds  (Read 1091 times)

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JW

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Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« on: March 08, 2019, 11:17:15 am »
+1

Nocturne has a lot of interesting cards but as Donald X mentions itís too complex in large part because it requires reading too many cards. Specifically, Hexes and Fool are too slow to resolve, and there are too many Boon cards given that some are not that interesting. In addition, some cards could use boosts in power. Thus, the following proposed changes.

Fool and Bard are cut.  Sacred Grove now comes with Lucky Coin (and maybe Sacred Grove gets a theme change to ďBardĒ).

Cobbler gives +Action as well. So it now reads ďAt the start of your next turn, +1 Action and gain a card to your hand costing up to $4.Ē  Cobbler could use a slight boost in power, and giving +Action in addition to gaining a $4 to hand makes it more flexible.

Raider gives +Buy as well. So it now reads, ďAt the start of your next turn, +$3 and +1 Buy.Ē  By the time your deck hits $6 to afford Raider, you often donít need more coins right away. This means that all of those extra coins from Raider are less likely to go to waste. 

Remove the hexes. Instead:
Vampire causes Fear.  That is, each opponent with at least 5 cards in hand discards an Action or Treasure (or reveals they can't). Vampire is an easy attack to get hit with multiple times because itís a Night card, is strong and is a trasher (so it tends to be bought early). So I wanted Vampire to be an attack that is quick to resolve and doesnít stack with itself.

Skulk causes Bad Omens. That is, each opponent puts their deck into their discard pile, looks through it and puts 2 Coppers from it onto their deck (or reveals they can't). Bad Omens is wordy and time-consuming to resolve, so it needs to go on a card that is otherwise very simple.

Leprechaun causes Greed instead of giving a hex. That is, you gain a Copper onto your deck. Leprechaun needs to punish you in a way that you canít be confident wonít hurt at all, so that thereís a downside to getting that sweet, sweet Gold (okay, gaining Gold isnít that great, but donít tell Leprechaun that!). Greed is a great Hex for this because Copper almost never runs out, it fits the theme that the angry Leprechaun punishes you for taking Gold by forcing Copper on you, and the original name of Greed is themed perfectly.

Tormentor causes Plague (gain a curse to hand) if you have an Imp in play, and gains an Imp if you have no Imp in play. Making Tormentor a better Imp gainer and less frequent attack fits with my early take on it.  Tormentor was a weak card to begin with, so that it becomes a better Imp gainer and an irregular cursing attack still leaves it at a reasonable power level. Tormentor would now read "If you have an Imp in play, each other player gains a Curse to their hand. Otherwise, gain an Imp from its pile."

Werewolf causes Haunting. That is, if it's your Night phase, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand puts one of them onto their deck.  Werewolf wants an attack that you can stack at least twice, but thatís quick to resolve. And because Werewolf has +3 cards, this reduces the odds of ending up as locked down by its attack as happens with Ghost Ship. Taken directly from my earlier thread on the topic.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 05:42:37 pm by JW »
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Asper

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Re: Nocturne without Hexes or duds
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2019, 12:54:36 pm »
0

I like the idea to get rid of Hexes. They suck. Honestly, so do Boons. Random effects are pretty much design rock bottom as far as I'm concerned. At least Boons almost always do something, but then you have Blessed Village's weird timing issues and how it introduces "taking" a Boon to dodge that... No thanks.

Lucky coin is cute and deserves a better card to go with it. I will not comment on Werewolf because I am biased here, but all of my will to admit that I am biased doesn't make me willing to believe that the official Necromancer was good. It's just another one of those cards in Nocturne that's ruined by making a fine idea put out far more cards than necessary.

I don't know enough about Nocturne's card powers to tell you which need boosts and which need nerfs.

Anyhow, I'm not sure what I think about pairing Vampire with Fear. Bat trashes, and I'm not sure how well that goes with that attack. You know, you get rid of your Coppers, just to have discard your precious Actions more often. I dunno... It kind of feels more appropriate for one of the Gold gainers, like Skulk or Leprechaun.

Your changes to Tormentor seem fine.

Gazbag

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Re: Nocturne without Hexes or duds
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2019, 01:37:10 pm »
+2

Nobody likes Hexes.

I wouldn't put Lucky Coin on Sacred Grove, having 3 out of the 7 Heirlooms attached to Fate cards is really bad for all the people who like Heirlooms but don't like Boons.

Cobbler is fine as is, not the best card ever but not the worst. An extra +Action seems like a lot more than a slight boost in power.

I'm not sure just giving the Doom cards one Hex to give out really works, I also don't think the expansion needs so many attacks if you remove Hexes.

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JW

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Re: Nocturne without Hexes or duds
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2019, 02:23:12 pm »
0

Anyhow, I'm not sure what I think about pairing Vampire with Fear. Bat trashes, and I'm not sure how well that goes with that attack. You know, you get rid of your Coppers, just to have discard your precious Actions more often. I dunno... It kind of feels more appropriate for one of the Gold gainers, like Skulk or Leprechaun.

Mechanically, I like Fear with Skulk and Bad Omens with Vampire (currently it's the reverse above). That way Bat helps to eventually protect you from Bad Omens by trashing your coppers. As actual replacements this might make Vampire too wordy, but in practice I'd probably just implement this by putting the hex associated with the attack on top of the pile.

Cobbler is fine as is, not the best card ever but not the worst. An extra +Action seems like a lot more than a slight boost in power.

Cobbler is not good as is. That doesn't mean you'll never use it, but it's slow and heavily reliant on being able to gain cards with +Actions. An extra +Action is more than a slight boost in power, but it needs at least a slight boost. Adding an extra +Action doesn't seem to make it a power card.

Do you have an alternate suggestions for where Lucky Coin should go?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 02:24:37 pm by JW »
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Gazbag

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Re: Nocturne without Hexes or duds
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2019, 02:56:14 pm »
0

Anyhow, I'm not sure what I think about pairing Vampire with Fear. Bat trashes, and I'm not sure how well that goes with that attack. You know, you get rid of your Coppers, just to have discard your precious Actions more often. I dunno... It kind of feels more appropriate for one of the Gold gainers, like Skulk or Leprechaun.

Mechanically, I like Fear with Skulk and Bad Omens with Vampire (currently it's the reverse above). That way Bat helps to eventually protect you from Bad Omens by trashing your coppers. As actual replacements this might make Vampire too wordy, but in practice I'd probably just implement this by putting the hex associated with the attack on top of the pile.

Cobbler is fine as is, not the best card ever but not the worst. An extra +Action seems like a lot more than a slight boost in power.

Cobbler is not good as is. That doesn't mean you'll never use it, but it's slow and heavily reliant on being able to gain cards with +Actions. An extra +Action is more than a slight boost in power, but it needs at least a slight boost. Adding an extra +Action doesn't seem to make it a power card.

Do you have an alternate suggestions for where Lucky Coin should go?

I pretty much agree with your take on Cobbler but I disagree that it needs a buff, Nocturne is too complex as is so I don't like adding complexity to one of the simpler designs.

I did have a look through the Nocturne cards but nothing leapt out at me for Lucky Coin, Tragic Hero has the Treasure gaining connection but I don't think putting Lucky Coin with it is a good idea. Maybe Crypt? It interacts with treasures so maybe it'd be okay?
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JW

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2019, 03:16:32 pm »
0

Maybe Crypt? It interacts with treasures so maybe it'd be okay?

Crypt is mainly used as a draw card that also temporarily removes Copper from your deck. The problem with Crypt usually isn't that in a hand of Crypt and 4 other cards, too few of those other cards are treasures. That's what Lucky Coin would fix. The problem with Crypt is that if you can't get a hand size bigger than 5 on the turn in which you play Crypt, Crypt generally doesn't do enough. So adding Lucky Coin to Crypt would make it harder to construct a deck that both draws well and finds the Crypt on that same turn, which would weaken Crypt. The reason I put Lucky Coin with Sacred Grove isn't that they're a particularly good fit, but rather because Lucky Coin seems to anti-synergize with the other available options.

An alternative fix to Cobbler would be for it to be gained to hand like Den of Sin. That's simpler than my proposed fix but I think that would make it too strong. It would be a Summon-variant.

Edit:
I should mention that my original idea for Cobbler was to gain and play an Action (instead of just gaining it to hand). But that doesn't work because Cobbler can gain cards of any type, not just actions. +1 Action and gaining an action to hand lets you play a terminal action gained with Cobbler immediately, as if it had the "gain and play" wording.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 03:59:10 pm by JW »
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LostPhoenix

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2019, 03:46:07 pm »
+8

Most players on this forum are very competitive, so naturally they aren't going to like random effects like boons and hexes. More casual players like myself, however, enjoy the excitement and surprising moments that they add. Fool is one of my favourite cards in Nocturne. I'd be sad to see it go. I even get a bit excited when I play Leprechaun (okay, maybe that's a bit weird). What I don't like in Nocturne is cards like Cemetery (going through an overly complex process in order to gain some other complex card).

Hexes and Boons have their share of fans. Remember, not everyone is a hardcore strategist.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Nocturne without Hexes or duds
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2019, 05:41:01 pm »
+1

Nobody likes Hexes.

It is perhaps unsurprising that I like Hexes. In fact they were/are more popular than Boons with my main games group.
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Gazbag

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Re: Nocturne without Hexes or duds
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2019, 06:03:07 pm »
0

I think most super competitive players recognise that there's already a ton of randomness in Dominion and Hexes don't really make much of a difference in that aspect. Or at least that's the way I feel and I'm very competitive.

I just don't have enough table space for all these extra decks and States and such so they aren't worth it to me.
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crj

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2019, 08:19:26 pm »
0

Could Lucky Coin become a normal Supply pile? Is it possible to pick a price people would pay? $2, and when you gain it, +1 Buy?

Admittedly, that loses the cuteness of seven Heirlooms to substitute for seven starting Coppers.
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Asper

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2019, 08:35:47 pm »
+4

Most players on this forum are very competitive, so naturally they aren't going to like random effects like boons and hexes. More casual players like myself, however, enjoy the excitement and surprising moments that they add. Fool is one of my favourite cards in Nocturne. I'd be sad to see it go. I even get a bit excited when I play Leprechaun (okay, maybe that's a bit weird). What I don't like in Nocturne is cards like Cemetery (going through an overly complex process in order to gain some other complex card).

Hexes and Boons have their share of fans. Remember, not everyone is a hardcore strategist.
The question remains whether it's a good design to have the most casual stuff in the most complex expansion.

ClouduHieh

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2019, 10:13:07 pm »
0

If you want to make drastic changes to nocturne, why donít you just create your own expansion. An expansion with night cards, and maybe (a few new heirlooms) with more than 7 heirlooms in the game end up in the same game, they could always just pick which heirlooms each player wants to start with or just make sure that the max would always be 7. Of course you donít have to add heirlooms.

Then you could still make your own cards that give out only one particular hex. Itís because of nocturne that I came up with snowline and wildlands expansions. And then when I got nocturne I only made slight changes to some of the cards. Cause I for one quite like the random effects that the hexes and boons cause. Using locusts and misery are definitely my favorites to give out to the other players. All the cards that give out boons and hexes still give em out.

The only card I donít like playing with is necromancer, it takes forever to decide which action to play, especially if there are other actions in the trash, also itís near impossible to explain to a new player to dominion. And takes almost as long with players who are only new to nocturne.
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Asper

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2019, 05:23:27 am »
0

If you want to make drastic changes to nocturne, why donít you just create your own expansion. An expansion with night cards, and maybe (a few new heirlooms) with more than 7 heirlooms in the game end up in the same game, they could always just pick which heirlooms each player wants to start with or just make sure that the max would always be 7. Of course you donít have to add heirlooms.

Then you could still make your own cards that give out only one particular hex. Itís because of nocturne that I came up with snowline and wildlands expansions. And then when I got nocturne I only made slight changes to some of the cards. Cause I for one quite like the random effects that the hexes and boons cause. Using locusts and misery are definitely my favorites to give out to the other players. All the cards that give out boons and hexes still give em out.

The only card I donít like playing with is necromancer, it takes forever to decide which action to play, especially if there are other actions in the trash, also itís near impossible to explain to a new player to dominion. And takes almost as long with players who are only new to nocturne.

Didn't you rank Nocturne as your least favourite expansion a while ago...?

faust

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2019, 06:26:01 am »
+2

I've noticed there is no Cursed Village replacement. This one seems hardest to give a fixed effect since it makes it trivial to play around it and ignore the penalty.
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segura

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2019, 09:09:22 am »
0

Cobbler is not good as is. That doesn't mean you'll never use it, but it's slow and heavily reliant on being able to gain cards with +Actions. An extra +Action is more than a slight boost in power, but it needs at least a slight boost. Adding an extra +Action doesn't seem to make it a power card.

Do you have an alternate suggestions for where Lucky Coin should go?
I disagree with your evaluation of Cobbler. If you gave it an extra Action it would be a village Workshop instead of a delayed cantrip Workshop; that would obviously be far too crazy.
Sculptor is also fine. Unlike Cobbler the gaining is not delayed but if you gain non-Treasures the card is terminal. I'd even argue that Cobbler is slightly better as being able to gain the very engine piece you need at the start of your turn increases consistency (Duration draw already increases consistency quite so Duration hand-gain is pretty sweet) whereas Sculptor is more risky, i.e. if you did not play a village before Sculptor the card becomes a plain Workshop (if you want it to use for engine build-up).


Nobody likes Hexes.
I do as the fun of not knowing what will hit you outweighs the downside of extra randomness to me.
Somebody getting a Cultist on T3 that lands on Cargo Ship is to me a worse "swinginess offense" than Alice being hit by Delusion vs Bob being hit by Famine.
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Asper

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2019, 09:21:35 am »
+1

Cobbler is not good as is. That doesn't mean you'll never use it, but it's slow and heavily reliant on being able to gain cards with +Actions. An extra +Action is more than a slight boost in power, but it needs at least a slight boost. Adding an extra +Action doesn't seem to make it a power card.

Do you have an alternate suggestions for where Lucky Coin should go?
I disagree with your evaluation of Cobbler. If you gave it an extra Action it would be a village Workshop instead of a delayed cantrip Workshop; that would obviously be far too crazy.
Sculptor is also fine. Unlike Cobbler the gaining is not delayed but if you gain non-Treasures the card is terminal. I'd even argue that Cobbler is slightly better as being able to gain the very engine piece you need at the start of your turn increases consistency (Duration draw already increases consistency quite so Duration hand-gain is pretty sweet) whereas Sculptor is more risky, i.e. if you did not play a village before Sculptor the card becomes a plain Workshop (if you want it to use for engine build-up).


Nobody likes Hexes.
I do as the fun of not knowing what will hit you outweighs the downside of extra randomness to me.
Somebody getting a Cultist on T3 that lands on Cargo Ship is to me a worse "swinginess offense" than Alice being hit by Delusion vs Bob being hit by Famine.
That's a two-card cross-expansion interaction. Obviously Dominion has luck, as after all, it's a shuffle game. No denying that. But having a random deck of effects isn't even trying (edit: to hide the randomness. I wouldn't want to imply that Hexes and Boons didn't have a lot of effort going into them. I'm sure they had. But they sure are in-your-face randomness, with no control beyond tracking the used ones.). Personally, I'm also genuinely offended that Locusts just eats Curses without a replacement - as if randomly hitting Locusts wasn't swingy enough. It's like when Jester didn't have the special case for Victory cards. It just spells out "whatever" in bold letters.

What also annoys me, if you were to try to make the best of Boons or Hexes, you would have to look through the discarded cards each time you want to e.g. gain a Cursed Village or play Leprechaun, or play a Sacred Grove and hope it might be nonterminal, to evaluate your chances to hit the right one. That's just painfully annoying and pointless most of the time.

segura

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2019, 11:56:19 am »
0

Sure, if you don't like random stuff Hexes and Boons suck. I never had any issues with random events and risk management in games though so I like this kind of thing.

I think that there is a big difference between on-play and on-gain Hexes/Boons. Cursed and Blessed Village are simply good cards. I also think that, given the combination of Hexes with two Night cards, it is a good design concept to make non-terminal Attacks random and weak-ish.

In my opinion Hex/Boon swinginess does not impact the game as much other other random stuff, like the Cargo Ship example I mentioned, a lucky early Swindler hit or Tournament in general. You can basically resign after Swindler converted your only $5 into a Duchy whereas the most nasty Hex, Delusion, is rarely game deciding.
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crj

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2019, 12:13:16 pm »
0

If you want to make drastic changes to nocturne, why donít you just create your own expansion.
Personally I don't like Boons, Hexes or the Night phase.

On the other hand, I do like Heirlooms, Leprechaun, Secret Cave, Cemetery, Shepherd, Necromancer, Pooka, and Tragic Hero. And it looks like Changeling would easily survive being morphed into a non-Night card.

Unfortunately, that's only a third of the cards needed for a full-size expansion, two-thirds of what's needed for a small expansion. Those cards grouped with some other stuff would look weird whether they were called Nocturne or not.

Maybe they should be repackaged as a small expansion with Apprentice, Vineyard, Apothecary, University, Alchemist, Familiar and Golem? (-8
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crj

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2019, 12:19:31 pm »
0

...wild idea. In that proposed edited-highlights set, drop Potion and instead conflate it with the top half of Changeling as a Treasure costing $4. "Choose one: +potion, or trash this and gain a copy of a card you have in play." You keep the Changeling fun, and also no longer have the problem of Potions outstaying their welcome in your deck.
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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2019, 10:18:01 pm »
0

Could Lucky Coin become a normal Supply pile? Is it possible to pick a price people would pay? $2, and when you gain it, +1 Buy?

Admittedly, that loses the cuteness of seven Heirlooms to substitute for seven starting Coppers.

I wouldn't do that. It's hard to think of many reasons you'd want to gain a Copper that gives you Silvers.
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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2019, 12:29:38 am »
0

I donít like all of the hexes. Just like 6 or 7 of them. Just because I think nocturne is the bottom of the barrel, doesnít mean that there arenít some cards I like. Before nocturne prosperity was on the bottom for me. However Goons is one of my all time favorite cards. And monument, Bishop, mountebank, grand market and contraband are really cool. But thatís about it for that expansion. The rest of the cards are okay or mediocre at best in my opinion. And trade route, forge and venture are awful. There just happens to be a few more reasons dislike nocturne. And someone gave it to me. So maybe in time it will rise up the ranks. I mean when I first got alchemy I hated it too. But eventually it rose up the ranks.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2019, 11:31:15 am »
0

Before nocturne prosperity was on the bottom for me. However Goons is one of my all time favorite cards. And monument, Bishop, mountebank, grand market and contraband are really cool. But thatís about it for that expansion. The rest of the cards are okay or mediocre at best in my opinion.

What about KC?
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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2019, 03:03:58 am »
0

Kings court is okay, but as I have found it does not work well on goons. Itís better to play goons 3 times in a row. Actually itís ten times better. But as for any throne room variant, in my opinion royal carriage is the best. And I like throne room more than kings court. But in the end both prosperity and nocturne have the most cards I would rather not play with. Adventures has only one card I hate, Cornucopia, empires, alchemy, and hinterlands have one or 2 each i donít like playing with, Dark ages has 2 I donít like one of which I absolutely hate, renaissance only has 2 attacks, one of which seems weak. They give out better benefits then thier predecessors but the attack effect is weaker. (Milita and witch), seaside, intrigue, and guilds have 3 each I donít like playing with, prosperity has 5 I donít like and nocturne has 8 I donít like. Hence bottom of the barrel.
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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2019, 04:53:07 am »
0

Cobbler gives +Action as well. So it now reads ďAt the start of your next turn, +1 Action and gain a card to your hand costing up to $4.Ē  Cobbler could use a slight boost in power, and giving +Action in addition to gaining a $4 to hand makes it more flexible.

Thoughts?

That would make Cobbler's effect strictly better than buying a Summon. Certainly the strength of Cobbler depends very much on the Kingdom, but gaining a Caravan for instance is effectively like playing a Caravan now and the next turn. Granted that a Trade is, in most cases, at least as good as the effect of a Trading Post, but you expect to enjoy Cobbler more played several times a game than Trading Post.
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Re: Nocturne simplified, without Hexes or duds
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2019, 09:14:51 am »
+3

I think you all are assuming your personal dislike for Hexes is universally understood across most of Dominion. I like them, and many others do too. I have friends that hate most attacks but love Hexes.
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