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jonvs

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All Durations?
« on: March 05, 2019, 02:27:21 pm »
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Occasionally I like to change things up a bit, like my virtual-treasure only variant. My latest idea is less radical: to have only Duration cards in the kingdom. With the expansions I have, I’d just barely have enough: Haven, Lighthouse, Fishing Village, Enchantress, Caravan, Outpost, Tactician, Wharf, Archive, and Merchant Ship. I feel it’ll be weird leaving all your cards out for Cleanup, and the interaction with Outpost could be interesting. It could be horribly broken or complex, or maybe it won’t be bad. We’ll see! Just need to find some people to try it out.
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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2019, 02:31:45 pm »
+1

Don't you just pretty much build the engine there with Outpost for payload and that's it?
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GendoIkari

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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2019, 03:31:59 pm »
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Don't you just pretty much build the engine there with Outpost for payload and that's it?

Outpost isn't payload is it? I think if it as something that, in the type of deck you can build with this Kingdom, simply doubles whatever other payload you have.
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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2019, 03:38:42 pm »
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Don't you just pretty much build the engine there with Outpost for payload and that's it?

Outpost isn't payload is it? I think if it as something that, in the type of deck you can build with this Kingdom, simply doubles whatever other payload you have.

An extra turn with a hand size you can only take advantage of once you're built up is payload, definitely. The same way you could build an engine just to play Possession, you could build an engine just to maximize Outpost turns.

No trashing is a bit of a bummer but you can get good reliable cycles with Wharf and Enchantress plays.
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GendoIkari

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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2019, 03:44:44 pm »
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Don't you just pretty much build the engine there with Outpost for payload and that's it?

Outpost isn't payload is it? I think if it as something that, in the type of deck you can build with this Kingdom, simply doubles whatever other payload you have.

An extra turn with a hand size you can only take advantage of once you're built up is payload, definitely. The same way you could build an engine just to play Possession, you could build an engine just to maximize Outpost turns.

No trashing is a bit of a bummer but you can get good reliable cycles with Wharf and Enchantress plays.

But it's not payload by itself. It's almost exactly like Fortune, actually; it doubles your total payload. You still need to have other payload in order for it to do you any good.
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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2019, 04:36:57 pm »
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Don't you just pretty much build the engine there with Outpost for payload and that's it?

Outpost isn't payload is it? I think if it as something that, in the type of deck you can build with this Kingdom, simply doubles whatever other payload you have.

An extra turn with a hand size you can only take advantage of once you're built up is payload, definitely. The same way you could build an engine just to play Possession, you could build an engine just to maximize Outpost turns.

No trashing is a bit of a bummer but you can get good reliable cycles with Wharf and Enchantress plays.

But it's not payload by itself. It's almost exactly like Fortune, actually; it doubles your total payload. You still need to have other payload in order for it to do you any good.

By that standard, you could essentially rule out almost any other payload card. Most payloads need economy from elsewhere in order to fully work.
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GendoIkari

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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2019, 04:48:41 pm »
+2

Don't you just pretty much build the engine there with Outpost for payload and that's it?

Outpost isn't payload is it? I think if it as something that, in the type of deck you can build with this Kingdom, simply doubles whatever other payload you have.

An extra turn with a hand size you can only take advantage of once you're built up is payload, definitely. The same way you could build an engine just to play Possession, you could build an engine just to maximize Outpost turns.

No trashing is a bit of a bummer but you can get good reliable cycles with Wharf and Enchantress plays.

But it's not payload by itself. It's almost exactly like Fortune, actually; it doubles your total payload. You still need to have other payload in order for it to do you any good.

By that standard, you could essentially rule out almost any other payload card. Most payloads need economy from elsewhere in order to fully work.

Maybe payload doesn't mean what I thought it means? I thought it was the ability to get points into your deck. This would most commonly be in the form of cards that give (combined generally with cards that give +buy). Alternatively, in the form of cards that directly gain or cards that give +.

So Gold, Fishing Village, Peddler, Grand Market, etc; would all be payload. Fortune and Outpost are also Payload, but only if you have other non-Fortune/Outpost payload in your deck.
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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2019, 02:58:25 am »
+2

I always understood payload to be cards that give you coins. You know, the stuff you PAY things with. But what do I know.

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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2019, 01:57:10 pm »
+3

Payload to me is more vague: it's the thing that makes building your engine worth it - the thing you're trying to do every turn. An engine could have a payload of a single province with a consistent Ghost Ship play, for example.

So Outpost is payload because the presence of Outpost pushes you toward the engine and you're really trying to play it as often as possible as it increases your output. Otherwise, what else would it be? It's not really an engine component as it doesn't provide draw or actions or any other resource like that. It just increases the output of the deck.

Economy (source of coins) is essentially always a part of payload but it's not exactly the same meaning. Same with gains / buys, etc.
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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2019, 03:13:03 pm »
+2

When thinking of payload in Dominion, this definition is the most relevant one:

(Firearms, Gunnery, Ordnance & Artillery) the explosive power of a warhead, bomb, etc, carried by a missile or aircraft
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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2019, 06:01:02 pm »
+3

When thinking of payload in Dominion, this definition is the most relevant one:

(Firearms, Gunnery, Ordnance & Artillery) the explosive power of a warhead, bomb, etc, carried by a missile or aircraft

In other words, payload is anything that can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way.
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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2019, 10:20:06 am »
+3

How you know you're on F.DS:
OP: "What do you think of this Kingdom with all Durations?"
Reply 1: Analyzes Kingdom, but includes the word "payload."
Replies 2-10: Debate the definition of "payload."

Back on topic, I do think that Outpost is strong due to all the ways you can set up your Outpost turn to be worthwhile.  Enchantress is interesting since it hits twice with an opponent's Outpost, but doesn't attack if you play it on your normal turn when you also play Outpost.  Also, all of the Duration effects mean you'll get a lot of your benefits prior to Enchantress hitting, which makes it less likely to seriously harm your turn, and a Duration hit with Enchantress doesn't stay in play, letting you get it back faster.  So on the whole, I'd say Enchantress is weaker than normal here.
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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2019, 02:06:35 am »
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Payload to me is more vague: it's the thing that makes building your engine worth it - the thing you're trying to do every turn. An engine could have a payload of a single province with a consistent Ghost Ship play, for example.

So Outpost is payload because the presence of Outpost pushes you toward the engine and you're really trying to play it as often as possible as it increases your output. Otherwise, what else would it be? It's not really an engine component as it doesn't provide draw or actions or any other resource like that. It just increases the output of the deck.

Economy (source of coins) is essentially always a part of payload but it's not exactly the same meaning. Same with gains / buys, etc.

Wait, so you're saying in this case you play your engine to play your Outpost, and when you play your Outpost you get to play your engine again? I think I'm with GendoIkari here.  Outpost can't be your payload.  You won't be able to "pay" for anything.  Once you have other payload I guess it could be considered more payload, but on its own it does nothing.  You gotta have something else worth playing again in order for Outpost to be helpful
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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2019, 07:32:51 am »
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Outpost can't be your payload.  You won't be able to "pay" for anything.

None of the definitions for "payload" are "something that helps you pay for things". The actual definitions include the explosives carried by a missile, the passengers and cargo carried by a ship, etc — i.e. the parts that aren't necessary to make the thing operate, but are necessary to fulfill the purpose of why it operates. Which is what Outpost does. Saying that it isn't payload because it doesn't give you any payload unless you have other payload is like saying that Duke isn't a Victory card because it doesn't give you any VP unless you already have other VP.
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GendoIkari

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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2019, 09:13:32 am »
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Outpost can't be your payload.  You won't be able to "pay" for anything.

None of the definitions for "payload" are "something that helps you pay for things". The actual definitions include the explosives carried by a missile, the passengers and cargo carried by a ship, etc — i.e. the parts that aren't necessary to make the thing operate, but are necessary to fulfill the purpose of why it operates. Which is what Outpost does. Saying that it isn't payload because it doesn't give you any payload unless you have other payload is like saying that Duke isn't a Victory card because it doesn't give you any VP unless you already have other VP.

Would you define Payload as "any card that gives you something other than the ability to play more cards"? I would say "any card that gives you something other than +cards and +actions", but I didn't want to include cards like Throne Room.
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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2019, 09:34:38 am »
+2

Would you define Payload as "any card that gives you something other than the ability to play more cards"? I would say "any card that gives you something other than +cards and +actions", but I didn't want to include cards like Throne Room.

I would not define payload as a specific list of card names, I would define it through the role that the card has in the engine that you're building (I don't think other deck types have an equivalent of engine payload so I don't think there's any point in using the term for other decks). Throne Room is payload if you're using it to throne your payload but isn't if you're using it to throne your engine components, and Silver is payload most of the time but isn't if you buy it just for the early economy and trash it later.
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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2019, 01:41:56 pm »
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Outpost can't be your payload.  You won't be able to "pay" for anything.

None of the definitions for "payload" are "something that helps you pay for things". The actual definitions include the explosives carried by a missile, the passengers and cargo carried by a ship, etc — i.e. the parts that aren't necessary to make the thing operate, but are necessary to fulfill the purpose of why it operates. Which is what Outpost does. Saying that it isn't payload because it doesn't give you any payload unless you have other payload is like saying that Duke isn't a Victory card because it doesn't give you any VP unless you already have other VP.

What I'm saying would be like saying Duke isn't worth VP without other VP cards.  Which is true.  You can't compare payload to an actual card type that is labelled in the game.
Your definition sure makes almost every single card sound like "payload" which makes it a rather meaningless thing to define cards by
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Re: All Durations?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2019, 02:06:15 pm »
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What I'm saying would be like saying Duke isn't worth VP without other VP cards.  Which is true.  You can't compare payload to an actual card type that is labelled in the game.
Your definition sure makes almost every single card sound like "payload" which makes it a rather meaningless thing to define cards by

Like I said above, it's not a list of card names, it's a term for the role a card plays in your engine.
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