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Author Topic: Star Chart and the new shuffle rule  (Read 367 times)

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GendoIkari

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Star Chart and the new shuffle rule
« on: February 27, 2019, 11:20:57 am »
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Something in the projects list thread made me realize something; the change in shuffle rule between first edition and second edition matters for Star Chart. Given that Stash got updated wording to make it work the same as it did in first edition, is Star Chart the first time when the shuffle rule matters? I can't think of any other card off the top of my head where the difference means anything.

I'm guessing I'm not the only long-time Dominion player who still plays by the old shuffle rule when playing IRL. I wonder if this will be an issue if I end up playing a game with Star Chart. In practice, it will rarely matter. But still, I find it bothering that because of Star Chart, the new shuffle rule can no longer be seen as purely a matter of better tracking/convenience, but is now something that has an actual rules impact.
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crj

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Re: Star Chart and the new shuffle rule
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2019, 11:39:56 am »
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I pondered that, and struggled to see any difference in practice?

If you need to do something with the top N cards of your deck, and you currently have X<N cards, by my understanding the old rule says you draw X cards, pick out one of your discards, shuffle the remainder of your discard pile, stack the chosen card on top then draw N-X cards. The new rule says you pick out one of your discards, shuffle the remainder, stack the chosen card, then the X cards that were already in your deck, then the remainder, then draw N cards?

In both cases, you draw/reveal/whatever the chosen card, the X cards, and N-X-1 of the other cards you shuffled from your discard pile?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Star Chart and the new shuffle rule
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2019, 11:48:39 am »
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The difference is that under the old rule, you would get to see those X cards when making the Star Chart decision. You just played a Lab with 1 card left in your draw pile; no other actions in hand; no extra actions from previous villages. You need to decide if you want to put your good terminal action on top of your deck; but you don't know if that 1 card is also a terminal card or not.

Under the old rules, you would get to see that card when deciding what to put on top, so you would know if it is also a terminal action. Under the new rules, you can't see that. If you have tracked your deck contents perfectly, or at least know how many terminals you have bought total, you could figure it out.
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crj

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Re: Star Chart and the new shuffle rule
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2019, 12:13:16 pm »
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Ah, yeah.

I forgot that, just because what's left in your deck is knowable, it's not necessarily actually known in practice!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Star Chart and the new shuffle rule
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2019, 12:28:01 pm »
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Ah, yeah.

I forgot that, just because what's left in your deck is knowable, it's not necessarily actually known in practice!

Yeah, I mean I'm generally going to know exactly how many Goons I bought, so I can know if the last card is a Goons or not based on counting how many are in the cards I'm shuffling. But if I have a few different terminals; I'm not going to perfectly track how many total I have. And terminal actions are just one obvious case. Another one could be a cursing game where you've been trashing your Curses one at a time. I might not know if that last card is a Curse or not, so do I want to put my trasher on top, or some other action that would be better if that last card is not a Curse?
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Jeebus

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Re: Star Chart and the new shuffle rule
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2019, 12:33:54 pm »
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I'm almost positive this is the only affected card (plus old Stash). As you imply, with Star Chart you get to see all the other cards -- the ones you don't have left in your deck -- so at least you have a lot more info than you would with old Stash under the new shuffling rule.

GendoIkari

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Re: Star Chart and the new shuffle rule
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2019, 12:39:55 pm »
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I'm almost positive this is the only affected card (plus old Stash). As you imply, with Star Chart you get to see all the other cards -- the ones you don't have left in your deck -- so at least you have a lot more info than you would with old Stash under the new shuffling rule.

Not sure what you mean? Wouldn't old Stash and Star Chart work exactly the same? Either way, you are getting to look through all cards that are being shuffled; which comes out to getting to see everything except the remaining deck.
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Jeebus

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Re: Star Chart and the new shuffle rule
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2019, 12:49:50 pm »
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With Stash you don't get to see the cards you're shuffling. That's why Stash has a different back.
Edit: That's not really the reason of course. In any case you wouldn't be allowed to see the cards after shuffling.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 12:52:43 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Star Chart and the new shuffle rule
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2019, 01:06:41 pm »
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With Stash you don't get to see the cards you're shuffling. That's why Stash has a different back.
Edit: That's not really the reason of course. In any case you wouldn't be allowed to see the cards after shuffling.

Right, I forgot how Stash works.
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