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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)  (Read 2976 times)

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markus

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« on: February 21, 2019, 06:01:56 pm »
+9

The Best + Cards (Top Half)

Comments for odd ranks are provided by lovestha, comments for even ranks by markus.

#19 ▲2 Nobles (Intrigue)
Weighted Average:
51.0%
Unweighted Average:
49.6%
Median:
48.7%
Standard Deviation:
16.6%

A very sad village, but still a village. A very sad source of VP, but still a source of VP. Only a little bit sad when it is how you are drawing cards, +3 cards is never bad. Getting all three in one package is very strong.
#18  Canal (Renaissance)
Weighted Average:
51.1%
Unweighted Average:
51.7%
Median:
48.7%
Standard Deviation:
21.0%

Being a project, you can't stack Canal as you love to do it with Bridges. The permanent cost reduction is still useful on the typical board and can be quite exciting with Workshops that suddenly can gain the shiny $5 cost cards.
#17 ▲1 Peddler (Prosperity)
Weighted Average:
55.9%
Unweighted Average:
54.0%
Median:
54.1%
Standard Deviation:
18.6%

No better place to put surplus buys than a peddler. But for more than $2 it is a pretty sad option. Its position in the $6+ list is a bit awkward, has anyone ever paid $6 for Peddler when they cared about the text on Peddler?
#16  Innovation (Renaissance)
Weighted Average:
57.6%
Unweighted Average:
57.6%
Median:
56.8%
Standard Deviation:
21.9%

The usefulness of Innovation depends on the board quite a bit. Preferably, there's a way to gain Action cards during the Action phase. Or there might be some cards that you can buy for a nice immediate effect. In contrast to other (expensive) projects, the only player to buy it doesn't have a great win performance in my stats sample (still ok!).
#15  Citadel (Renaissance)
Weighted Average:
61.3%
Unweighted Average:
63.3%
Median:
64.9%
Standard Deviation:
17.9%

The highest entry in this list of a Renaissance card. The reliability of a Throne Room every turn is great, having to play it first every turn is less awesome. Will not be surprised to see this rise a few slots next year.
#14 ▼1 Artisan (Base)
Weighted Average:
62.2%
Unweighted Average:
59.5%
Median:
64.9%
Standard Deviation:
16.4%

Artisan is a very nice gainer of $5 cost cards. Just get it as early as possible and you'll typically do fine.
#13 ▲1 Altar (Dark Ages)
Weighted Average:
64.0%
Unweighted Average:
57.2%
Median:
59.5%
Standard Deviation:
19.6%

The big trash and gain. The gain is big enough that you aren't sad to sacrifice early purchases to it. I am a bit sad when it is the only trashing in a kingdom, it is so very slow at that it's nearly not worth mentioning, it is more a side benefit to use in the late game to get rid of early trashers after they are no longer useful or to keep up with a weak junker.
#12 ▼2 Overlord (Empires)
Weighted Average:
65.5%
Unweighted Average:
62.0%
Median:
62.2%
Standard Deviation:
20.2%

Getting Overlord on turn 2 to play your preferred $5 cost on turn 3 or 4 is often the correct move. Later on, buying the $5 costs might be cheaper, but possibly you value the higher reliability of Overlord. Just be careful, that the card you want to play doesn't pile out.
#11 ▼6 Fortune (Empires)
Weighted Average:
70.1%
Unweighted Average:
69.9%
Median:
73.0%
Standard Deviation:
20.3%

Biggest cost in the game, but it's worth it. May not be available is the biggest down side with it staying hidden under Gladiator many games.
#10 ▲2 Dominate (Empires)
Weighted Average:
70.7%
Unweighted Average:
69.3%
Median:
73.0%
Standard Deviation:
15.4%

Dominate gains the 2 ranks that it lost last year to swap it's rank with Overlord again. It potentially provides a lot of VP, so you usually want to build a bit more...and then watch out for the 3-pile that ends the game before a Dominate gets even bought.
#9 ▲2 Grand Market (Prosperity)
Weighted Average:
73.2%
Unweighted Average:
72.3%
Median:
75.7%
Standard Deviation:
17.1%

One of everything and an extra coin doesn't sound like much, and you need to jump through hoops to get it? The deal is a lot better than it sounds. Jumping through the hoops can make it slow, but it is commonly worth it.
#8 ▲1 Border Village (Hinterlands)
Weighted Average:
73.5%
Unweighted Average:
69.7%
Median:
73.0%
Standard Deviation:
14.8%

In the best case, you only pay $1 more to get a Village with your $5 cost. Or you can Remodel into Border Village. If you are able to make use of its gain effect more often than your opponent, you're in a good shape to win the game.
#7 ▼1 Lost Arts (Adventures)
Weighted Average:
74.6%
Unweighted Average:
72.5%
Median:
81.1%
Standard Deviation:
23.4%

Turning a cantrip into a village gives a lot of flexibility to many kingdoms. The cost of 6 should be easy to achieve around the time that a deck needs to have a bunch of villages.
#6 ▲1 City Quarter (Empires)
Weighted Average:
77.6%
Unweighted Average:
74.4%
Median:
78.4%
Standard Deviation:
17.8%

Finding the right timing for your City Quarter gains is sometimes tricky. But in general you should get more than you think. If you also find a way to increase the action density in your hand, the deck can become quite explosive.
#5 ▲3 Inheritance (Adventures)
Weighted Average:
77.9%
Unweighted Average:
72.7%
Median:
78.4%
Standard Deviation:
21.0%

Cementing its place at 5th, Inheritance is obviously a very strong effect. Personally I put it a little bit lower as it is more situationally good than others it is ranking above. When the conditions are right for using it there is no doubt about its power.
#4 =0 Pathfinding (Adventures)
Weighted Average:
78.8%
Unweighted Average:
78.1%
Median:
83.8%
Standard Deviation:
16.7%

Pathfinding keeps its spot. It is the best of the rest with a significant distance to the top 3 on this list. The +card token is great...the sooner you're able to buy it the better.
#3 =0 Goons (Prosperity)
Weighted Average:
93.5%
Unweighted Average:
90.4%
Median:
95.0%
Standard Deviation:
17.7%

I'm still enjoying playing with Goons, that could make me a masocist. A useful attack with virtual VP, economy and +buys, it is a compelling payload for any deck. The attack does not stack but the rest of the abilities are very good in multiples. With a deck willing to buy many coppers/silvers the points ceiling for such a deck is very very high. Do not ignore. Obviously this is still the region of cards people are not sleeping on.
#2 =0 King's Court (Prosperity)
Weighted Average:
93.8%
Unweighted Average:
90.0%
Median:
94.6%
Standard Deviation:
19.5%

lovestha: Extremely powerful. Costing 7 is a lot, so it can be too slow. But it can play the role of village or simply amplify your payload. As it must collide with something it is probably wrong to open but otherwise it is a great card. Only clearly a trap when the kingdom doesn't support more than single provincing.

markus: Let's be clear. You almost always want it and you want it in big quantities.
#1 =0 Donate (Empires)
Weighted Average:
97.5%
Unweighted Average:
95.2%
Median:
100.0%
Standard Deviation:
16.3%

Infinite trash for just 8 debt?! Do we really need to say more about this most powerful option? As a self confessed player I'm sure the mistakes I'm making with Donate are: Not planning when to use it well enough; Not thinking about using it twice in a game.
                     
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 12:43:05 am by markus »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2019, 06:20:08 pm »
+1

Hmmmm, this turned out pretty similar to the way I voted. My main beef would be that Inheritance is overrated.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2019, 07:45:40 pm »
+5

Grammar quibble: "it's" == "it is"; "its" == "belonging to it". This article gets that wrong often enough that it begins to grate. /-8
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2019, 08:07:53 pm »
+1

I was surprised to see King's Court at 2 instead of 1, because I forgot about Donate. How could I forget about Donate?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2019, 08:28:21 pm »
+3

I don't think that not being available is a downside you should consider in ranking the cards. If there was a kingdom card that was rigged to be randomized into the kingdom only half as often as the other cards, that shouldn't make a difference, and this is the same thing.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2019, 08:31:14 pm »
+2

#7 ▼1 Lost Arts (Adventures)
Turning a cantrip into a village gives a lot of flexibility to many kingdoms.
While turning a cantrip into a village could be useful if, say, there's a cantrip you want a lot of, no actual villages, and multiple different terminals you want to play multiples of, I'd think the main use of Lost Arts is to turn a terminal draw into a super-Laboratory (which is a lot more reliable).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2019, 08:52:06 pm »
0

Grammar quibble: "it's" == "it is"

Programming quibble: what is ""it's" == "it is""?
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2019, 09:06:08 pm »
0

All the good projects are too low, and Fortune should not be dropping.  My top 5 were Donate, Fortune, King's Court, Citadel, and Canal.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2019, 09:58:10 pm »
+1

I don't think that not being available is a downside you should consider in ranking the cards. If there was a kingdom card that was rigged to be randomized into the kingdom only half as often as the other cards, that shouldn't make a difference, and this is the same thing.

I would argue that the hoops you have to jump through to get Fortune are a part of its price, and so should be considered. It's like how Grand Market is considered to cost more than $6 because of the buy restriction.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2019, 10:00:26 pm »
+5

Fortune could drop another 10 ranks easy.  The winner only gains Fortune in 35% of the kingdoms in which it appears.  This is far lower than any other card in this top half (Dominate is closest at 51%, but this is probably an underestimate due to games being resigned before the first Dominate would be bought).

Contra werothegreat, Fortune wouldn't be close to a top 3 card in this list even if it was always available; Donate, Goons, and King's Court are absurdly centralizing.  In fact, Fortune is pretty close to where I would expect it to be if people only considered games in which it is revealed.  Fortune is strong payload amplification, but sometimes the game ends too fast for an purchase to pay off.  And sometimes there's no draw and Fortune is pretty weak.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2019, 01:36:16 am »
0

City Quarter remains underrated. It's in the same league as KC and Goons. At most, just a notch below.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2019, 03:42:18 am »
+3

As a self confessed player I'm sure the mistakes I'm making with Donate are: Not planning when to use it well enough; Not thinking about using it twice in a game.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2019, 05:32:02 am »
+7

City Quarter remains underrated. It's in the same league as KC and Goons. At most, just a notch below.

This is an example of relative rank being misleading. The gap from Pathfinding to City Quarter is 1.2%, then City Quarter is 3% away from Lost Arts right below it.

In terms of tiers, the top of the list really looks more like

Donate
King's Court, Goons
Pathfinding, Inheritance, City Quarter

with ordering within those tiers up to opinion. I would likely put City Quarter over Inheritance but under Pathfinding. I don't think CQ is good enough to jump into the KC/Goons tier.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2019, 05:46:29 am »
+3

I would argue that the hoops you have to jump through to get Fortune are a part of its price, and so should be considered. It's like how Grand Market is considered to cost more than $6 because of the buy restriction.

It's not the same thing. Grand Market has the buy restriction as a part of the "cost" to actually get the card. Fortune's hoops are not a part of the cost to buy it, you have to do it to make it available in the game at all, which means you are also helping your opponent acquire a Fortune, which you don't want to do specifically because it is a ridiculously powerful card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2019, 12:10:50 pm »
+1

I would argue that the hoops you have to jump through to get Fortune are a part of its price, and so should be considered. It's like how Grand Market is considered to cost more than $6 because of the buy restriction.

It's not the same thing. Grand Market has the buy restriction as a part of the "cost" to actually get the card. Fortune's hoops are not a part of the cost to buy it, you have to do it to make it available in the game at all, which means you are also helping your opponent acquire a Fortune, which you don't want to do specifically because it is a ridiculously powerful card.

I agree with Commodore Chuckles. This isn't about whether or not Fortune is available in a game. It's about how easy it is to get when it is available. Just because the extra hoops aren't literally written on the card as a buy restriction doesn't really matter. Any time Fortune is available, it requires extra steps to get.

Fortune could basically be reworded to have a buy restriction if you want... "You can't gain or buy this unless 5 Gladiators have been gained *Edit* or trashed this game". (Yes it's not the same in all cases, but it is in most cases). To me, having 5 cards sitting on top of the card is absolutely a buy restriction.

Your example was about how often a card is available. Fortune is available if Fortune is in the Kingdom, it just takes more than the printed cost to get.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 12:40:46 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2019, 12:14:13 pm »
+3

Fortune could basically be reworded to have a buy restriction if you want... "You can't gain or buy this unless 5 Gladiators have been gained this game". (Yes it's not the same in all cases, but it is in most cases). To me, having 5 cards sitting on top of the card is absolutely a buy restriction.

That's besides the point. If my opponent gains 5 Gladiators, I can buy Fortune for $8D8 without ever gaining any Gladiators.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2019, 12:20:37 pm »
0

Fortune could basically be reworded to have a buy restriction if you want... "You can't gain or buy this unless 5 Gladiators have been gained this game". (Yes it's not the same in all cases, but it is in most cases). To me, having 5 cards sitting on top of the card is absolutely a buy restriction.

That's besides the point. If my opponent gains 5 Gladiators, I can buy Fortune for $8D8 without ever gaining any Gladiators.

This isn't the point you are making but also it's very false that you can't get fortune unless 5 gladiators have been gained. A lot of gladiators get trashed from the supply.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2019, 12:43:21 pm »
+2

Fortune could basically be reworded to have a buy restriction if you want... "You can't gain or buy this unless 5 Gladiators have been gained this game". (Yes it's not the same in all cases, but it is in most cases). To me, having 5 cards sitting on top of the card is absolutely a buy restriction.

That's besides the point. If my opponent gains 5 Gladiators, I can buy Fortune for $8D8 without ever gaining any Gladiators.

This isn't the point you are making but also it's very false that you can't get fortune unless 5 gladiators have been gained. A lot of gladiators get trashed from the supply.

Updated to gained or trashed. The point is exactly the same. It's a question of how easy it is to get the card. If Fortune weren't a split pile, you could get it any time you have to spend. Because it is a split pile, you both need to spend, and you need other stuff to have happened this game.

This has the effect of making it so that you can't get it as early as you normally could. Cards as a whole are more powerful the earlier you get them, so anything that makes it so that you can't get it as early affects the card's power level. If a card said "you can't buy this unless you have shuffled this game", it would be weaker than if it didn't say that. Fortune basically says that, because even if it cost instead of , you wouldn't be able to buy it in your opening.

In the same way, I would expect that the fact that buying a Gladiator makes it easier for your opponent to buy a Fortune should be a consideration when looking at Gladiator's power level.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 12:45:09 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2019, 03:07:01 pm »
+1

Updated to gained or trashed. The point is exactly the same. It's a question of how easy it is to get the card. If Fortune weren't a split pile, you could get it any time you have to spend. Because it is a split pile, you both need to spend, and you need other stuff to have happened this game.

This has the effect of making it so that you can't get it as early as you normally could. Cards as a whole are more powerful the earlier you get them, so anything that makes it so that you can't get it as early affects the card's power level. If a card said "you can't buy this unless you have shuffled this game", it would be weaker than if it didn't say that. Fortune basically says that, because even if it cost instead of , you wouldn't be able to buy it in your opening.

In the same way, I would expect that the fact that buying a Gladiator makes it easier for your opponent to buy a Fortune should be a consideration when looking at Gladiator's power level.

It isn't a question of "how much Fortune's powerlevel is affected by the fact that you can't buy it in the early game" (because that actually matters), it's a question of "how much Fortune's powerlevel is affected by the fact that half of the time when it's technically in the kingdom, it isn't really in the kingdom at all".
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2019, 06:34:50 pm »
0

Updated to gained or trashed. The point is exactly the same. It's a question of how easy it is to get the card. If Fortune weren't a split pile, you could get it any time you have to spend. Because it is a split pile, you both need to spend, and you need other stuff to have happened this game.

This has the effect of making it so that you can't get it as early as you normally could. Cards as a whole are more powerful the earlier you get them, so anything that makes it so that you can't get it as early affects the card's power level. If a card said "you can't buy this unless you have shuffled this game", it would be weaker than if it didn't say that. Fortune basically says that, because even if it cost instead of , you wouldn't be able to buy it in your opening.

In the same way, I would expect that the fact that buying a Gladiator makes it easier for your opponent to buy a Fortune should be a consideration when looking at Gladiator's power level.

It isn't a question of "how much Fortune's powerlevel is affected by the fact that you can't buy it in the early game" (because that actually matters), it's a question of "how much Fortune's powerlevel is affected by the fact that half of the time when it's technically in the kingdom, it isn't really in the kingdom at all".

The point, though, is that you have (some amount of) control over whether or not it's technically in the kingdom, which adds to the price of getting it in a meaningful way.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2019, 07:33:20 pm »
0

The point, though, is that you have (some amount of) control over whether or not it's technically in the kingdom, which adds to the price of getting it in a meaningful way.

You don't really have very much control over whether or not it's technically in the kingdom. If your opponent is mirroring your strategy and not buying any Gladiators, you don't probably want to be the person who wastes time unlocking it for both players, unless you can utilize the Gladiator itself to a good enough effect that it's not just a waste of time.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2019, 08:43:34 am »
0

I frequently buy Peddler at $4 and sometimes even at $6 and don't see it as a "sad option" but a path to cheaper Peddlers in the future.
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crj

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $6+ Cards (Top Half)
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2019, 09:10:47 am »
+1

Well, yeah - I think I've paid $6 for a Peddler only twice. Both times it was Prosperity-only kingdoms where that was the least-bad springboard.

Doesn't mean I wasn't sad when I did it, though. /-8
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