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Author Topic: The Dominion Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights  (Read 6217 times)

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traces Around

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The Dominion Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights
« on: February 20, 2019, 04:01:30 pm »
+2

Given recent events, I felt it was necessary to place this list (and the Prizes) in a less easily editable format for posting on this forum. To that end, you may view the nicely formatted Knights list here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRP4yJ-_4t7p3JpfrbjfZCzGAkoGgN1HvtXzNttgmi7KEBRyp0v_qToQlBEbD_wPm_Kf0Up4UgAE2IU/pub

For simpler discussion reference, a list without commentary is reprinted below.

10. Dame Josephine
9. Sir Vander
8. Sir Martin
7. Dame Sylvia
6. Dame Natalie
5. Sir Destry
4. Sir Michael
3. Dame Molly
2. Dame Anna
1. Sir Bailey
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 02:25:10 am by traces Around »
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Donald X.

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Re: The Dominon Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2019, 04:21:48 pm »
+3

I guess those "recent events" don't include where theory said he wouldn't do it again.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: The Dominon Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2019, 06:05:13 pm »
0

I'm surprised Sir Michael is so low, I had him at #1. I know that the prevalence of engines has made handsize attacks less valued, but, well, Michael's trashing makes it hard to build an engine in the first place.
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Titandrake

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Re: The Dominon Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2019, 06:14:12 pm »
+3

I'm surprised Sir Michael is so low, I had him at #1. I know that the prevalence of engines has made handsize attacks less valued, but, well, Michael's trashing makes it hard to build an engine in the first place.

An engine that forces a discard to 3 every turn is good. If anything, engines make handsize attacks more valuable, since they're a reason to build the engine.

The problem is that Michael doesn't make an engine that can do that. It attacks once or twice then gets trashed to another Knight. You have very little control over whether you get to keep Sir Michael if you win the Knight split, and if you win the Knight split in a Knights game then you're already in a good spot and it's more like a win-more effect.

The way I think about Knights is that in most games, almost all your Knights will get trashed in the long run. So, you shouldn't think of the Knight effect as a key component of your deck. You should think of it more like Boons - random bonuses you get in the midgame. Given that, your goal is to hit $5 more often to buy Knights, and to play Knights more often to trash more non-Knight cards from your opponent. Which is why Bailey and Molly deserve to be so high, non-terminal Knights are great. I think Michael is actually #7, behind Destry, Sylvia, and Natalie (in that order).
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: The Dominon Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2019, 06:28:59 pm »
0

I was referring to how using handsize attacks against engines hurts less because an engine can often still draw your whole deck from just 3 cards. The Knights games I've played have usually been slogs or just plain chaos, which makes handsize attacks much more brutal.
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JoeBot

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Re: The Dominon Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2019, 06:35:13 pm »
0

What "recent event" was this?
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Donald X.

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Re: The Dominon Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2019, 08:12:30 pm »
+16

What "recent event" was this?
Xyrix aka hypercube posted the $5 qvist lists, done by him and tracer and Chris is me, in order from first to last. This caused no hardships to anyone and I respect their wish to do it the way they wanted to.

Gendoikari reposted the two portions of lists thus far posted but in reverse order, last to first, like other people were doing it. This caused no hardships to anyone and I respect his wish to have the list the way he wanted it.

theory edited hypercube's list to be Gendoikari's list. This was done innocently, not realizing anyone had any reason to get mad. When it turned out some people did get mad - a common thing when posts are edited - he said oops sorry, he wouldn't do it again. hypercube restored the original first-to-last lists in his thread; a happy ending.

But wait. tracer has now posted these new lists off-site. I do not respect this; it's just being pissy over something he already got his way on. Well, maybe he didn't see that post, and thinks this is hilarious. I guess it's mildly funny. Someone could paste that content into a post here, but what's the point? It's the opinions of someone who really didn't need you to see them.
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Titandrake

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Re: The Dominon Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2019, 09:06:09 pm »
0

I was referring to how using handsize attacks against engines hurts less because an engine can often still draw your whole deck from just 3 cards. The Knights games I've played have usually been slogs or just plain chaos, which makes handsize attacks much more brutal.

1. I think the argument that "handsize attacks matter less because engines draw their deck anyways" isn't great. Until your engine is drawing your deck, you still have a handsize that's 2 smaller than it should be. If you're at the point where you're just barely drawing your deck, you have to draw 2 more cards to do so. It only doesn't matter when you're at the point where the draw is strong enough to handle itself anyways, which is often quite a ways into the game. Plus it still takes longer to build the point of having enough redundancy to go off from 3 cards in hand, and you also lose out on some overdraw tricks. I don't think handsize attacks are systematically stronger or weaker against engines, they're still just good.

2. If your Knights games are sloggy, aren't you not going to play Sir Michael that often anyways? The same is true for every Knight in a sloggy game, but I find the slogginess tends to come from Knights colliding with themselves, in which case you really want the non-terminal Knights, and if you don't have those, then you want the Knights that give you something that helps you get more Knights.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2019, 09:19:25 am »
+9

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faust

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2019, 09:29:50 am »
+3

Personally I believe the rankings should be posted in the form of a search tree. This is good for finding stuff, and also it looks like a bracket.
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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2019, 09:45:02 am »
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Depending on implementation and interpretation you might lose total ordering.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2019, 09:51:59 am »
+3

One fun thing to consider: if we posted lists with commentary straight to the wiki, it wouldn't be too difficult to make them sortable any way anyone wanted. It would be hard to keep them a "surprise" that way, though.
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Eran of Arcadia

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2019, 11:13:30 pm »
0

One fun thing to consider: if we posted lists with commentary straight to the wiki, it wouldn't be too difficult to make them sortable any way anyone wanted. It would be hard to keep them a "surprise" that way, though.

What if someone wanted them to not be sortable at all?
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2018 Edition: Knights
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2019, 11:19:31 pm »
+3

It's difficult, but not impossible to sort the Knights any way you wish. Ambassador helps.
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