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[Willvon]

My wife and I were playing earlier today and we had this random setup:
 
Courtyard, Workshop, Scheme, Mining Village, Gardens, Pirate Ship, Royal Seal, Stables, Farmland, Bank.

My wife went for more of a modified BM approach, eventually with 2 Banks in her deck, and I went for Gardens.  I was thrown off guard at first when I realized there were no +buys to help in getting the quick 2's.  I used Pirate Ship to get a few coins to help with my purchases, though of course, it helped thin out some of her coppers. At least it hit one of her Banks along the way.  At first I was focusing on Mining Villages and Workshops.  For some reason, I forgot to add some Schemes early in order to put my Workshops back on top and use them to keep grabbing Gardens and Mining Villages.  (I'm still getting used to the Hinterlands cards.)  So by the time I got a couple Schemes, I didn't get much benefit out of them in the long run.  My wife got two of the Gardens.  I also managed to get 3 Provinces.  I had a deck of 42 cards.  So I got my Gardens worth 4 each.  My wife got 5 Provinces, a couple of Duchies, and even 2 Farmlands.  She also bought one extra Estate on her last turn.  (I ended the game buying the last Province.)  We had run out Gardens and Mining Villages.  The final score ended up 46 to 45 in her favor.

So what is a good tactic to winning a Gardens game when there is no source of +Buy, especially if my opponent has a facilitator like Bank to strengthen her purchasing power.  Is the Pirate Ship a real waste of time, providing too much help to her and not enough to me?  As it progressed, I twice had hands with double Pirate ship and was able to buy 2 Provinces that way.  So it seemed to pay off in the long run for me even though it helped give her some early trashing that she would not have been able to get otherwise.

No one bought Royal Seal.  It didn't seem to really add anything to the game in any way, and I never bought a Farmland since it would require me to trash something to get something, which works against the idea of Gardens to keep adding as many cards as possible.

I look forward to your comments.  Thanks.

[toaster]

Buying Pirate ship was definitely a mistake your your part...especially without multiple buys, it helped her a lot more than it helped you.

As for the set in general, I'm inclined to believe that Courtyard/BM is the winning strategy here in general, but scheme/workshop/mining village might be fast enough to beat it out.

[ftl]

Isn't a formulaic Workshop-gardens gonna beat everything else around pretty handily?

Well, not quite formulaic, there may be opportunities to eke out minor advantages via schemes and mining villages, but I suspect that incorrectly done, additions to that would hurt rather than help. Pirate Ship is definitely one that hurts you rather than helps you - each play of Pirate Ship COULD HAVE been a play of Workshop to get you an extra Gardens or extra estate!

[Asklepios]

Tried this set out a few times. Certainly nothing seems to keep pace with Workshop / Workshop running towards Gardens.

Play rules, I'd suggest:

Get two workshops as soon as possible.
Thereafter make or buy Gardens as quick as possible,
If you have only $3, or if Gardens depleted get Workshop
If you have only $2, or if Gardens and Workshops depleted get Estate.
If you have $1 or less, get copper.

This should pretty consistently give you 18-22 turns to get 40+ cards and a win. If your opponent is also buying any of the above cards, it goes slightly faster of course.

Taking Mining Villages doesn't seem to help this decks speed, it seems.

[Geronimoo]

If your opponent isn't going for Workshop/Gardens you should get a lot of Workshops before Gardening. No, 4 isn't a lot, 6 isn't either... 8! This will allow you to empty the piles as fast as possible.

[DG]

With scheme available, wouldn't it be better to get one workshop and 6-7 schemes before taking gardens?

[Ozle]

If your opponent isn't going for Workshop/Gardens you should get a lot of Workshops before Gardening. No, 4 isn't a lot, 6 isn't either... 8! This will allow you to empty the piles as fast as possible.

You buy all 8 workshops before gardening?
I always got for gardens before I get them all for those inevitable turns where you get Workshop+3 coin in your hand so you can still pick up two key cards.

[TheMathProf]

My instincts here were similar to DG's.

[jonts26]

If your opponent isn't going for Workshop/Gardens you should get a lot of Workshops before Gardening. No, 4 isn't a lot, 6 isn't either... 8! This will allow you to empty the piles as fast as possible.

You buy all 8 workshops before gardening?
I always got for gardens before I get them all for those inevitable turns where you get Workshop+3 coin in your hand so you can still pick up two key cards.

If both players are going gardens, your job is to win the gardens and estate split. And maybe get a duchy or two. So you want to dip into gardens soon. If only one player is going gardens, his goal has to be focused on draining 3 piles (gardens, estates, workshops) ASAP. The best way to do this is prefer workshops to gardens for a long while. Yeah, you'll get a ton of collisions but a hand of workshop,workshop,estate,copper,copper is the same as workshop,gardens,estate,copper,copper in terms of card gaining power. And in order to drain piles quickly, you'll want to play a workshop just about every turn.

[Ozle]

We'll have to disagree, because I still think the quickest way to win is to stop somewhere around the 6/7 mark and pick up those extra workshops on spare 3's later.

If my first 6 cards are workshop, that means 37% of my cards are workshops, and with 5 cards i'd have to be pretty unlucky to not get one each turn (6%?). And its not as if I am stopping buying them, im just preferring gardens on 4 for a while and still buying workshops on 3.

[WanderingWinder]

The problem is that yes, 9 is the optimal number according to the simulators, but the simulators' opponents aren't going 'hey, he's bought 7 workshops.... probably gardens rushing... hey, I should buy 2-3 and block him, and I can afford to do that now because my economy is already up and going'. In a realistic game, you should never be getting to 9 before the first gardens....

[Asklepios]

The problem is that yes, 9 is the optimal number according to the simulators, but the simulators' opponents aren't going 'hey, he's bought 7 workshops.... probably gardens rushing... hey, I should buy 2-3 and block him, and I can afford to do that now because my economy is already up and going'. In a realistic game, you should never be getting to 9 before the first gardens....

What WW said.

Sure, the more Workshops you get, the more consistent they'll be later, but you can't afford to let your opponent get to the Gardens before you.

In a solo game, sure, get all the Workshops first. Playing live, I'd advocate 2 workshops before gardening.

[jomini]

Also remember that on a lot of boards gardens aren't useless to the other player so hoarding workshops can really misfire. For instance an apprentice can buy a garden (depriving you of points) and then apprentice it for a province (gaining points) and perhaps doing something bad in between.

On this board, you could get early gardens and optionally use farmland to turn them into golds and in turn, farmland the first farmland into a province. Alternatively a BM playing could dip into gardens and later farmland to steal estates while gain VP; piling out before you can bloat past 40.

[Tahtweasel]

The room for debate on this board is entirely about the Workshop/Mining Village/Scheme/Gardens balance, which I agree, varies dynamically based on what your opponent is doing.

[Tahtweasel]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/09/game-20120309-112326-2b67433f.html

Just a single trial, playing on instinct, I got 5-point Gardens by turn 18, and finished the game on turn 19. That should be considerably stronger than any big money/Province strategy that doesn't adapt.

[Asklepios]

But as you don't start getting gardens till turn 14, how do you intend to get decent VP against the opponent who just buys gardens to deny them to you, or the traditional workshopplay that starts getting garden much earlier?

Here's a more traditional way of playing workshop-gardens, played up to turn 14. I just ran this once, but try it yourself.

Note that by Turn 14, I have 6 gardens. Thats when your deck starts acquiring gardens.

Admittedly in a two player game, it won't quite work like that, as I'll be helping you run the workshops down. But regardless, I'll have more gardens than you by the end of the game, and thats what counts.

[Tahtweasel]

But as you don't start getting gardens till turn 14, how do you intend to get decent VP against the opponent who just buys gardens to deny them to you, or the traditional workshopplay that starts getting garden much earlier?

Here's a more traditional way of playing workshop-gardens, played up to turn 14. I just ran this once, but try it yourself.

Note that by Turn 14, I have 6 gardens. Thats when your deck starts acquiring gardens.

Admittedly in a two player game, it won't quite work like that, as I'll be helping you run the workshops down. But regardless, I'll have more gardens than you by the end of the game, and thats what counts.

Did you intend to post a link?

That particular solo game was just to show that Courtyard/Big Money, which is usually quite strong, simply isn't an option on this set.

[jonts26]

It's a matter of contested vs uncontested gardens. If you are uncontested, more or less, you have to try to end the game as fast as you can. If they are contested, you have to get the majority of the gardens/estates points.

If for some reason the other player does not contest gardens at all, then the proper play is to mass workshops, like 8 or 9, before getting gardens. Obviously the other player won't just let you run all the gardens even if he isn't playing a gardens strategy himself, usually. If both players are pursuing a gardens heavy strategy, you need to start getting gardens very quickly, like after 2 workshops (or a workshop with some schemes in this case). There is no right number of workshops or other support cards to get.  A proper gardens strategy requires a good deal of finesse and adapting to your opponents play.

[Willvon]

Thanks, everyone.  I really appreciate the various points of view. 

I find it interesting that very few comments made any reference to Scheme.  I would have thought that using Scheme to topdeck your Workshop would be a good idea.  Or is that a problem because when I buy Scheme, then I am not running down the other piles quickly enough?

[randomdragoon]

The problem with scheme is that initially, scheme+workshop does not workshop as fast, on average, as double workshop, and later I would probably prefer to drain the workshop pile than take a scheme. And you do have the other problem you  mentioned of splitting your pile-draining on two different piles.

[WanderingWinder]

It's a matter of contested vs uncontested gardens. If you are uncontested, more or less, you have to try to end the game as fast as you can. If they are contested, you have to get the majority of the gardens/estates points.

If for some reason the other player does not contest gardens at all, then the proper play is to mass workshops, like 8 or 9, before getting gardens. Obviously the other player won't just let you run all the gardens even if he isn't playing a gardens strategy himself, usually. If both players are pursuing a gardens heavy strategy, you need to start getting gardens very quickly, like after 2 workshops (or a workshop with some schemes in this case). There is no right number of workshops or other support cards to get.  A proper gardens strategy requires a good deal of finesse and adapting to your opponents play.

I agree, but I'd just add that in a lot of situations you're gardens rushing, playing it non-optimally is going to get you better results, because, well, if I use only 6 instead of 9, I win only 93% of the time (making this number out of thin air) instead of 98% in a non-mirror. In the mirror, even a delayed mirror, the difference is much, much bigger.

[jomini]

Remember that farmland brings an extra option for a BM player to bring their gardens online - buy a farmlands & get a gardens from an estate. If you play for gardens, you really need to watch out for alternate methods to gain gardens, trash for benefit cards that allow gardens denial to be implemented with lower opportunity costs, and ways to slow a garden rush (e.g. swindler). This game has two of them, so I'd not go for an "optimal" garden rush even in non-mirror. There are just a lot of ways for a BM to adapt and play garden's denial.

[RisingJaguar]

The problem with scheme is that initially, scheme+workshop does not workshop as fast, on average, as double workshop, and later I would probably prefer to drain the workshop pile than take a scheme. And you do have the other problem you  mentioned of splitting your pile-draining on two different piles.

The flip side is that you would have a LOT less terminal collision.  That less terminal collision might allow you to have that extra copper in hand, which may be decent from $3 to $4.  I would agree that in a non-mirror, that workshops only is probably better for pile-draining purposes.  In a mirror, I would be incline to try schemes and hope that schemes don't 'drop' the one or two workshops in my deck. 

[eHalcyon]

The problem with scheme is that initially, scheme+workshop does not workshop as fast, on average, as double workshop, and later I would probably prefer to drain the workshop pile than take a scheme. And you do have the other problem you  mentioned of splitting your pile-draining on two different piles.

The flip side is that you would have a LOT less terminal collision.  That less terminal collision might allow you to have that extra copper in hand, which may be decent from $3 to $4.  I would agree that in a non-mirror, that workshops only is probably better for pile-draining purposes.  In a mirror, I would be incline to try schemes and hope that schemes don't 'drop' the one or two workshops in my deck.

Maybe two workshops and then schemes after that?

[mnavratil]

Maybe two workshops and then schemes after that?

This also seems ideal to me, at least in the mirror. The extra workshop would help boost early gains of scheme, and once you get enough schemes to play workshop reliably, any extra are just dead cards.

It looks like simulators favor the scheme player in a non-optimized heads-up match against the workshop/gardens bot, but that result doesn't say a whole lot since when to switch to gardens in these kinds of matches is a very dynamic thing.