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Author Topic: Advice on my next expansion purchase?  (Read 4286 times)

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Kingsfoil

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Advice on my next expansion purchase?
« on: February 18, 2019, 10:07:37 am »
+1

I have Dominion 1E with the 2E cards. I've had this for a long time - before it even got the Spiel des Jahres. But it took me a long time to warm up to it, and that's another story.

I recently picked up Renaissance. Both because I found it for under $30 and because it sounded like a good place to jump back in, it had durations, coffers, projects, etc. that implemented many of the additions that have come up over the years, but at the same time wasn't overly complex or fiddly, for those who weren't deep into Dominion already. Seemed like a good selling point, and I'm digging it. Especially the artifacts, as they add a layer of good, reactive player interaction.

I'd like to get two more expansions to round things out and get the variety that makes the game shine. I've already chosen my third expansion - Adventures. I looked at a ton of personal preference rankings here and other places, and Adventures had both the highest average ranking and the least volatility between people. Moreover, I'd been leaning toward Seaside and had been having a blast with it through Androminion, but reading between the lines of many peoples' opinions it sounds like Adventures is something of a spiritual successor, reimplementing the duration cards but doing it better, with all the other bells and whistles added on and a better overall card set.

Where I'm stymied is what to get fourth? First of all:
  • I don't have a particular favorite playstyle. I like to trash down to a svelte deck where I get the same strong hand every time. I like to build an endless chain and draw 20 cards on a turn. I like to try weird things with Tacticians or Gardens just because, and get a thrill when they work and have a laugh when they blow up on me.
  • I appreciate what I'd call "reactive player interaction." I like the artifacts because how many flagbearers you need isn't dependent on some engine calculation but based on what your opponents are doing. I don't like the witch because it makes your opponent take curses, but because when my opponent buys one I'm left with an interesting decision - do I get a chapel to reverse the damage? Do I buy two and outrace him through the curse pile? Buy a cellar and just cycle over the garbage? Remodel them into Estates? I like games better when they contain reactive decisions like this.
  • I tend to play with many people who will only play a few times, rather than the same people over and over. So accessibility is valuable to me.
  • I like boards that offer you a few different ways to play them, rather than boards that scream a specific strategy and all the players are trying to see who can get that extra inch out of the engine.

My candidates:
1. Empires - the obvious choice. If Adventures is the most popular, Empires is on average number 2, though with a little more volatility. And if Adventures is the spiritual successor to Seaside, Empires is the spiritual successor to Prosperity, with overpowered cards and crazy combos. Moreover, this one is complex and I like the thought that I can put some teeth on the game if needed.

2. Prosperity - the old favorite. In some ways Empires may dominate this, but Prosperity still has all the 7 cost cards and it has the platinum and colonies. I know I can get those through the extra base card pack, but if I'm going to spend $13 on those, I might as well spend another $17 to get the old favorites in Prosperity? And if I do that, then Prosperity becomes my number 4. I'm really just wondering if the platinum/colony cards are so important to a collection that they outweigh other considerations. If not, I get the sense that Prosperity is beloved but just can't compete with the younger kids on the block.

3. Hinterlands - the dark horse candidate. This surprised me. As I read through reviews and opinions, I realized that Hinterlands is the salt of Dominion. If you ask people what their favorite food is, no one will shout, "salt!" Yet, if you have a plate full of food, salt will make every single thing on it better. It sounds like Hinterlands lacks the hook or gimmick, and the consistent theme of other sets, yet it is just a solid set of no fuss cards that enhance every other set when they combine. I've tried it out through Androminion and have been impressed. Each board just has a touch of interest, it asks a question like, "psst. You want to try this? You want to get ill-gotten gains and then trader them it into five silver? You'd be a hero. Or an idiot. Give it a try." As of right now, I'm kind of leaning this way.

4. Cornucopia + Guilds - the compromise. Numbers 3 and 6, respectively, according to current internet opinionland (Dark Ages and Prosperity lie between them). This feels like a little bit of Hinterlands, without the pronounced mechanics of platinum or landmarks they're a little more vanilla Dominion, meant to mix into the larger pot. But they do have stronger theme and some distinctive cards, and things like coffers that give more character beyond the core mechanics. Guilds may meld well with Renaissance. This feels like a little of column A and a little of column B, no regrets. ?

I'd appreciate advice, opinions, thoughts to consider. I really do want to cap at four for financial reasons, so I'm vested in optimizing my decision. Thanks!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 11:59:09 am by Kingsfoil »
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Awaclus

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Re: Advice on my next expansion purchase?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2019, 11:00:01 am »
+1

Prosperity has a lot of cards that don't do very much in most games. I recommend Empires out of those options, but Hinterlands or Cornu/Guilds are fine too.
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Donald X.

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Re: Advice on my next expansion purchase?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2019, 11:50:27 am »
+6

I'd appreciate advice, opinions, thoughts to consider. I really do want to cap at four for financial reasons, so I'm vested in optimizing my decision. Thanks!
Here's what I think: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19523.0
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Kingsfoil

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Re: Advice on my next expansion purchase?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2019, 12:09:40 pm »
+3

And what, sir, do you know about this game?

Ha - thanks. I didn't expect to get input from the man himself. Sorry I didn't find your post before posting myself - very thorough and helpful.
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Donald X.

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Re: Advice on my next expansion purchase?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2019, 12:13:48 pm »
+7

Ha - thanks. I didn't expect to get input from the man himself. Sorry I didn't find your post before posting myself - very thorough and helpful.
It wasn't there; I just posted it. I've had it sitting around, and saw your post and thought, oh yeah, I should post that.

For you in particular, I recommend Empires for variety and interaction, or Intrigue 2E for accessibility.
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Kingsfoil

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Re: Advice on my next expansion purchase?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2019, 09:44:45 am »
0

Here's what I think: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19523.0

Regarding your section on "Let's start simple!" - am I to infer that Cornucopia and Guilds are more complex than Renaissance, then? Or would Cornucopia be on par with Seaside, Prosperity, and Renaissance?
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crj

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Re: Advice on my next expansion purchase?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2019, 10:27:13 am »
+1

Of those three, my own view is that Guilds is easily the simplest. I... think I'd also rank Cornucopia as simpler than Renaissance, but it's much closer, possibly so close it matters whether you care about complexity per card or absolute complexity. Obviously there's more to learn in an expansion that's twice as big. (-8
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Donald X.

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Re: Advice on my next expansion purchase?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2019, 11:47:46 am »
+1

Regarding your section on "Let's start simple!" - am I to infer that Cornucopia and Guilds are more complex than Renaissance, then? Or would Cornucopia be on par with Seaside, Prosperity, and Renaissance?
I wasn't ignoring Cornucopia / Guilds when picking the simplest expansions; I intentionally didn't pick them. Guilds is easily the most complex of those five, with word monsters like Doctor. Cornucopia is not so bad, though Tournament is one of the most complex cards ever, requiring you to understand a 2x2 payoff grid and read 5 more cards. Cornucopia is less complex than e.g. Adventures but still more complex on average than e.g. Seaside (though Seaside has twice as many cards to learn).
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crj

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Re: Advice on my next expansion purchase?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2019, 01:22:27 pm »
0

Guilds is easily the most complex of those five, with word monsters like Doctor.
Hmm. This contrasts unfortunately with my opinion in the immediately preceding comment. (-8

It feels to me like that's judging the complexity of a set by the complexity of its most baroque cards? I tend to focus more on average complexity, and half the cards in Guilds are really simple.
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Awaclus

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Re: Advice on my next expansion purchase?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2019, 01:28:21 pm »
0

Guilds is pretty complex, especially analysis paralysis wise, but I don't think any of the expansions are too complex for anyone really.
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Donald X.

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Re: Advice on my next expansion purchase?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2019, 02:05:44 pm »
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It feels to me like that's judging the complexity of a set by the complexity of its most baroque cards? I tend to focus more on average complexity, and half the cards in Guilds are really simple.
Seaside also has really simple cards. Lots of them.

I have previous posts explaining what I mean by complexity. I don't need to convince you that e.g. Guilds is more complex than Seaside; that's where I stand though.

At one point in playtesting I compared Renaissance to Hinterlands (ignoring Projects as there was no way to line them up, and man you can play without them, but including Artifacts). I counted the number of words, and also tried to estimate card complexity non-word-wise. Renaissance came out less-complex. It's trickier to do this with Guilds as it's half the size, but you can just double your numbers.
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tripwire

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Re: Advice on my next expansion purchase?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2019, 12:20:57 pm »
+1

TL;DR: I agree with Donald X. that Empires and Intrigue 2E sound like the best bets based on your criteria.

Here's a more detailed answer if you want:
I don't have a particular favorite playstyle. I like to trash down to a svelte deck where I get the same strong hand every time. I like to build an endless chain and draw 20 cards on a turn. I like to try weird things with Tacticians or Gardens just because, and get a thrill when they work and have a laugh when they blow up on me.

This screams Empires to me. Not only are there different cards that support different kinds of strategies, the huge thing is the landmarks. Some of these can create entirely different ways to play the game. So, if you like a variety of different playstyles, Empires for sure.

I appreciate what I'd call "reactive player interaction." I like the artifacts because how many flagbearers you need isn't dependent on some engine calculation but based on what your opponents are doing. I don't like the witch because it makes your opponent take curses, but because when my opponent buys one I'm left with an interesting decision - do I get a chapel to reverse the damage? Do I buy two and outrace him through the curse pile? Buy a cellar and just cycle over the garbage? Remodel them into Estates? I like games better when they contain reactive decisions like this.

I think both Empires and Intrigue 2e fit here (although a lot of expansions do really well on this count, Prosperity for example has a lot of non-attack player interaction). Gathering and split piles in Empires can lead to a push and pull between players as can some of the landmarks with limited VP available. Intrigue's attacks have variable modes that can allow for more interaction than more straightforward attacks, and things like lurker can create scenarios like artifacts do.

I tend to play with many people who will only play a few times, rather than the same people over and over. So accessibility is valuable to me.

So, I personally don't think Empires is as complicated as Adventures or Nocturne, but it is on the more complicated end of things. But, if Adventures is of an acceptable level enough that you've already bought it, then I wouldn't worry too much. Intrigue definitely has more straightforward effects on its cards, but one thing to think about is that its emphasis on variable effects can lead to some analysis paralysis for some players. If accessibility is really important, I'd push more towards Seaside or Hinterlands.

I like boards that offer you a few different ways to play them, rather than boards that scream a specific strategy and all the players are trying to see who can get that extra inch out of the engine.

Again, this screams Empires to me. I think Empires supports divergent strategies maybe more than any other set. Landmarks give different paths to victory, but so do Castles and most of the victory token cards. I've played multiplayer games with lots of Empires cards where everyone was taking a different strategy to scoring points.
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msw188

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Re: Advice on my next expansion purchase?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2019, 01:35:57 pm »
+2

I'm not sure if you've already made your decision, but I thought I'd throw in my own experience.  For friends of mine who have enjoyed getting into the game, Cornucopia/Guilds has been a great choice.  Sure there are some cards with lots of reading, but you read Journeyman once and then you know how to play it.  Or you read things about overpay, but they don't require any further thinking once they're in your deck (Herald, Doctor, etc).  Meanwhile, nothing in this box felt like it forced anyone to re-think the basic approach to the game.  So a plus for accessibility, I'd say.  And everybody seemed to like Coffers (although now that Renaissance already has them, maybe they're less of a selling point for C/G).

On the other hand, when involving Empires cards, games often seemed to take longer, and some of my friends would complain about some of the complications.  Not in terms of having to read so much (although Gathering cards are slightly word-y), but instead in terms of having to think/plan so much more, making turns take quite awhile sometimes.  The decisions on how best to handle the existence of Villa, how to properly gauge debt costs, trying to keep track of deck-based Landmarks, what to save with Archive, when to buy Groundskeeper if at all, etc.  All of these things are very interesting and definitely expand the types of games and paths to victory, which is awesome ... but for me they also seem to make infrequent players frustrated because they feel like there are too many versions of "getting the hang of basic gameplay".  Especially for impatient friends who originally liked the game because turns were short.

EDIT: Also in my opinion, Prosperity and Seaside do indeed have more 'duds' making for less fun random games overall.  Still fun though!

Just my own personal experience!  Also, your name just makes me think of the scene in the Houses of Healing where people are dying and the Healer is like, "oh well no, we don't have any kingsfoil, but here are like five other names for it and a poem about it in case you were curious."
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 01:40:32 pm by msw188 »
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Kingsfoil

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Re: Advice on my next expansion purchase?
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2019, 04:58:24 pm »
0

@msw199 and @tripwire (do @ signs work on here?)

Thank you for the excellent responses. Overall this advice has been very much on point.

I was able to try out some Adventures before actually buying it, but found it didn't scratch the itches I wanted. Whereas Empires gave me a huge thrill. I think it's the droid I'm looking for.

Regarding Adventures (and I'm no expert here), but it seemed somewhat self-absorbed. It was a blast to play by itself, but was convoluted and had a lot of slow, powerful cards and combos. When mixed with other sets, I didn't grab much from Adventures because the other cards were more direct (often less fun, but more direct, and those Provinces don't last forever). Don't get me wrong, I enjoy(ed) Adventures and it's on the wishlist, but it just felt like a separate game meant to be enjoyed on a separate table. While Empires and Renaissance and Intrigue add together into better and better things when combined.

Intrigue has also delighted me, though less so. I liked the attacks in the base set because things like cellar, chapel, or moat offered interesting responses. Intrigue has some interesting attacks, but at first glance doesn't have interesting responses, more of a sit and take it situation. On the flip side, the set isn't as attack focused as I expected it to be and it has a solid collection of mixable cards. And I still have cellar and moat and all that to mix with the cards that are attacks.

So...Empires and Intrigue 2E.

And Renaissance. I'm still loving Renaissance most of all. It has everything, and just makes everything better when you mix it in.
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