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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards  (Read 5972 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2019, 11:33:43 am »
0

Predictive statistics:
-Outpost at least +25
-Horn of Plenty at least +12
-Knights at least +11
-Vampire at least +5
-Groundskeeper at least +3
-Highway, Lost City at least +2
-Ghost Ship at least +1
-Old Witch, Recruiter in the top 25 (obviously)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 11:35:27 am by werothegreat »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2019, 11:59:53 am »
+1

Unless you want to play literally any terminal other than Pooka in the early game, you mean.

Why would I want to play any terminal other than a Hunting Grounds that gains me a free Lab every time I play it?

Because Lab Big Money isn't really that dominant on its own, generally decks try to accomplish something else.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2019, 12:10:56 pm »
0

Jeez, what do you people have against cursers

Well... Mountebank, Cultist, Witch, Torturer, and Old Witch are all in the top 25 $5 cards, so... I think there are still strong junkers.  Over the years, we've been able to better identify which junkers usually aren't worth the investment if there's a convenient way to trash Curses.  These are the junkers that have been losing ranks.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2019, 01:03:31 pm »
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Unless you want to play literally any terminal other than Pooka in the early game, you mean.

Why would I want to play any terminal other than a Hunting Grounds that gains me a free Lab every time I play it?

Because Lab Big Money isn't really that dominant on its own, generally decks try to accomplish something else.

TIL there's nothing beyond the early game.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2019, 01:18:33 pm »
+2

It has been pointed out that I neglected to consider Inventor when I said that I thought Sculptor was the best Workshop variant. Upon reflection, I have decided that Inventor is a Workshop variant on the first play (at which point it is, in my opinion, worse than Sculptor), an Artisan variant on the second play, and then becomes completely ineffable on subsequent plays.
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ospond

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2019, 04:32:22 pm »
+1

Well, the lists weren't ever really super useful for anyone. They are fun, that's the main point.

I disagree that they're not super useful. I have Qvist rankings open in the next tab when I play. If I'm split between buys or strategies, I check the Qvist rankings of each card to decide. Over time I memorize the community consensus and stop looking at the rankings so much, but that wouldn't be possible without the rankings.

Also I use them as a litmus test that the way I'm evaluating cards is correct. It happened very often that I thought a card wasn't strong, but Qvist rankings said it was. This forces me to think about what aspects of the card I'm undervaluing.


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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2019, 04:38:10 pm »
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Well, the lists weren't ever really super useful for anyone. They are fun, that's the main point.

I disagree that they're not super useful. I have Qvist rankings open in the next tab when I play. If I'm split between buys or strategies, I check the Qvist rankings of each card to decide. Over time I memorize the community consensus and stop looking at the rankings so much, but that wouldn't be possible without the rankings.

Also I use them as a litmus test that the way I'm evaluating cards is correct. It happened very often that I thought a card wasn't strong, but Qvist rankings said it was. This forces me to think about what aspects of the card I'm undervaluing.

Are you sure you want to give the guy who voted Chapel last and Duchess first a say in the strategies you pick?
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ospond

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2019, 05:00:13 pm »
0

Well, the lists weren't ever really super useful for anyone. They are fun, that's the main point.

I disagree that they're not super useful. I have Qvist rankings open in the next tab when I play. If I'm split between buys or strategies, I check the Qvist rankings of each card to decide. Over time I memorize the community consensus and stop looking at the rankings so much, but that wouldn't be possible without the rankings.

Also I use them as a litmus test that the way I'm evaluating cards is correct. It happened very often that I thought a card wasn't strong, but Qvist rankings said it was. This forces me to think about what aspects of the card I'm undervaluing.

Are you sure you want to give the guy who voted Chapel last and Duchess first a say in the strategies you pick?

The data is noisy but still useful, I think.

No idea why that person did that, but we did encounter software bugs that can mess up the rankings in ordered mode.

If the rest of that person's data is as bad as chapel and duchess, ideally I would like to exclude it as an outlier.
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Donald X.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2019, 05:04:09 pm »
+3

No idea why that person did that, but we did encounter software bugs that can mess up the rankings in ordered mode.
I am going to guess, they just had their list backwards.
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Holger

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2019, 06:16:35 pm »
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If the rest of that person's data is as bad as chapel and duchess, ideally I would like to exclude it as an outlier.
Agreed; it's likely either a bug, an accidental submission in reverse order, or trolling. On that matter, would Chapel have kept its #1 position without this one outlier? Or did that person rank Page almost as badly as Chapel?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2019, 06:43:29 pm »
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Well, the lists weren't ever really super useful for anyone. They are fun, that's the main point.

I disagree that they're not super useful. I have Qvist rankings open in the next tab when I play. If I'm split between buys or strategies, I check the Qvist rankings of each card to decide. Over time I memorize the community consensus and stop looking at the rankings so much, but that wouldn't be possible without the rankings.

Also I use them as a litmus test that the way I'm evaluating cards is correct. It happened very often that I thought a card wasn't strong, but Qvist rankings said it was. This forces me to think about what aspects of the card I'm undervaluing.

This doesn't seem like a good way to make decisions. It's better to gain cards based on what roles they fill and how they interact with each other. For the rankings to really be useful for in-game decisions, you'd have to encounter a choice between two cards that cost the same and perform the same basic function, a relatively (and increasingly) rare occurrence. And even then, the best choice is often because one card has a subtle interaction with another card in the kingdom that the competing card lacks, not because it happens to be higher in the rankings.
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ospond

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2019, 08:25:05 pm »
0

Well, the lists weren't ever really super useful for anyone. They are fun, that's the main point.

I disagree that they're not super useful. I have Qvist rankings open in the next tab when I play. If I'm split between buys or strategies, I check the Qvist rankings of each card to decide. Over time I memorize the community consensus and stop looking at the rankings so much, but that wouldn't be possible without the rankings.

Also I use them as a litmus test that the way I'm evaluating cards is correct. It happened very often that I thought a card wasn't strong, but Qvist rankings said it was. This forces me to think about what aspects of the card I'm undervaluing.

This doesn't seem like a good way to make decisions. It's better to gain cards based on what roles they fill and how they interact with each other. For the rankings to really be useful for in-game decisions, you'd have to encounter a choice between two cards that cost the same and perform the same basic function, a relatively (and increasingly) rare occurrence. And even then, the best choice is often because one card has a subtle interaction with another card in the kingdom that the competing card lacks, not because it happens to be higher in the rankings.

I do think about the interactions. What I mean is that I take community power ranking as a variable in consideration (and a somewhat prominent variable). It's worked out very well for me so far.

Basically I take the community ranking as a baseline for how "strong" the card will be and then adjust based on interactions that I can think of.

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theory

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2019, 08:41:31 pm »
+4

I fixed the order.  Thanks GendoIkari for doing the work so I just had to copy/paste.
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Seprix

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2019, 09:00:06 pm »
+8

I fixed the order.  Thanks GendoIkari for doing the work so I just had to copy/paste.

No, now it's broken. Tracer, Chris is me and Xyrix had it that way, why can't they be allowed to display it the way they want to? One person has a problem with it (Gendo) and now it has to change? What?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 09:06:47 pm by Seprix »
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2019, 09:01:53 pm »
+4

Boo. This was the only list that was in a useful order.
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Donald X.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2019, 09:16:42 pm »
0

But every single other card list, both this year and years past, has been posted in the same way, so it seems really weird and bad to suddenly have one thread that is different than all the rest.
They haven't all been posted the same way, unless you mean, eventually. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18150.0
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2019, 09:19:52 pm »
0

I fixed the order.  Thanks GendoIkari for doing the work so I just had to copy/paste.

Yay!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2019, 10:24:54 pm »
+1

Also, having this many images in one thread crashes my phone's browser. Would be nice if it were actually three threads.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2019, 01:19:06 am »
+2

I fixed the order.  Thanks GendoIkari for doing the work so I just had to copy/paste.

No, now it's broken. Tracer, Chris is me and Xyrix had it that way, why can't they be allowed to display it the way they want to? One person has a problem with it (Gendo) and now it has to change? What?

I was clearly not the only person; given the other threads, other comments, and respect given on various comments. But like I said, it should be up to majority opinion. I’ve listed several reasons to think that the majority opinion is the same as mine; but I wouldn’t complain if that turns out to be wrong. My initial comment was never meant to complain or say I had a problem with it; only to point out that this wasn’t what people expect from these lists.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2019, 02:14:06 am »
0

There are a lot of shockers on this list. I'm not that good a player, so other people probably know better than I do. I'm not a noob either, so I thought for sure Library and Scholar were as least as good as most of the $5 smithies (for one thing).
- Library (102)  my list: 40
- Scholar (76)  my list: 33
- Rabble (48)  my list: 38 (as an example. I had most of the $5 smithies higher than #50.)

Also, I don't get why Sacred Grove is 53 spots lower than Treasurer?
- Sacred Grove (96)  my list: 39
- Treasurer (43)  my list: 34  (at least I had it higher than Sacred Grove)
 Council Room helps your opponents because it's effect for you is really strong. +$3, +1 buy and a boon is also really strong. Also don't get why Jester dropped so far? (Probably has something to do with most people playing exclusively 2-player games...)
- Jester (95)  my list: 32  That's a big difference. Sure, I overrate it because it's one of my favorite cards, but I can't believe it deserves to be as low as #95. (Does multiplayer get taken into account at all?)
- Idol (91) my list: 65  I still think most people underrate boons.

- Tragic Hero (61)  my list: 103  Seems like at least half the time, it's a one-shot that turns into a gold.
I had no idea Storyteller (my list: 96) and Academy (my list: 93) would end up in the top half. Then again, I've barely played with Academy at all.

I think Villain (112. my list: 84) is decently strong. Most of the game is 'middle game' -- after most Estates have been trashed and before much greening.

With all this disparity, I was surprised/amused at getting a couple new cards directly the same rank as this list:
Cursed Village (31. my list: 31), Scepter (69. my list: 69).

And I'm shocked we haven't seen Vampire or Knights yet.

ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2019, 03:20:38 am »
+1

I fixed the order.  Thanks GendoIkari for doing the work so I just had to copy/paste.

No, now it's broken. Tracer, Chris is me and Xyrix had it that way, why can't they be allowed to display it the way they want to? One person has a problem with it (Gendo) and now it has to change? What?

I was clearly not the only person; given the other threads, other comments, and respect given on various comments. But like I said, it should be up to majority opinion. I’ve listed several reasons to think that the majority opinion is the same as mine; but I wouldn’t complain if that turns out to be wrong. My initial comment was never meant to complain or say I had a problem with it; only to point out that this wasn’t what people expect from these lists.

I prefer to see the list in the way Gendo prefers to see it, and I was happy to see the list reversed.

That being said, I found it a bit offputting that not only it wasn't the authors who reversed the list, but they weren't even aware of the change. Please moderate in moderation.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2019, 05:18:53 am »
0

The last portion has now been posted. Evidently my posts are now subject to some sort of communal editing process, so have fun with it!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2019, 06:59:43 am »
+1

Recruiter is perhaps the most amazing card since KC. It should be number 1 next year. Wharf shouldn't be ranked above cultist and MB.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2019, 07:11:02 am »
+1

Good to see Vampire and Bridge Troll rising.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2019, 10:18:07 am »
+1

Yeah, Recruiter should be first overall and I expect it to be next year.
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