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ThetaSigma12

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« on: February 15, 2019, 11:58:03 am »
+12

#95 ▼1 Bureaucrat (Base Set) Weighted Average: 6.37% / Unweighted Average: 8.74% / Median: 2.13% / Standard Deviation: 17.62%

The new weakest card, Bureaucrat is a weak attack paired with silver gaining. There are a few decks where it is good to mediocre, but in the majority of engines, the card serves no viable purpose.
#94 ▲1 Pirate Ship (Seaside) Weighted Average: 6.44% / Unweighted Average: 11.52%  / Median: 2.13% / Standard Deviation: 21.64%

Coming out of last place is Pirate Ship, now at second to last. It is a powerful combo with Capitalism (and Ambassador) and no doubt that has affected its rise. There seems to be a good deal of disagreement on how much that combo should factor into its ranking, however.
#93 ▼1 Noble Brigand (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 6.75% / Unweighted Average: 10.59% / Median: 4.26% / Standard Deviation: 19.52%

Noble Brigand is weak, suffering from an inability to trash more exotic treasures and only giving a terminal +. As with Bureaucrat and Pirate Ship, it struggles in the modern meta of less treasure-heavy decks.
#92 ▲1 Navigator (Seaside) Weighted Average: 8.25% / Unweighted Average: 12.32% / Median: 6.38% / Standard Deviation: 19.52%

Navigator suffers from lack of flexibility in addition to being a boring terminal Silver. However, its cycling can be valuable early game and sometimes it makes a good opener.
#91 ▼1 Ritual (Empires) Weighted Average: 9.98% / Unweighted Average: 13.38% / Median: 8.51% / Standard Deviation: 16.39%

After a massive drop last year, Ritual continues to nudge downward. Other than Golds, there aren't a lot of good cards to trash that will make a decent profit. And since it gives you a curse, it doesn't actually thin your deck at all and swapping a valuable card for a curse can be a tough pill to swallow for some decks.
#90 ▼2 Taxman (Guilds) Weighted Average: 11.38% / Unweighted Average: 16.37%  / Median: 8.51% / Standard Deviation: 21.14%

Taxman suffers from money-centric syndrome and a weak on-play bonus.
#89 ▲2 Treasure Map (Seaside) Weighted Average: 13.04% / Unweighted Average: 16.89%  / Median: 11.11% / Standard Deviation: 19%

Treasure Map is very good to add a bunch of payload at once, and if you can draw your deck you're in a very good position to pop these. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this rose again in the future.
#88 ▲1 Feodum (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 14.68% / Unweighted Average: 21.56%  / Median: 9.57% / Standard Deviation: 26.93%

Alt-VP is always underrated, and Feodum this low seems like a mistake. Still, a lot of times decks with Silver floods will be out preformed by better engines.
#87 ▼2 Rocks (Empires) Weighted Average: 15.23% / Unweighted Average: 17.48%  / Median: 10.64% / Standard Deviation: 20.77%

Rocks rarely gets uncovered. And when it does, it rarely matters, although total of trash fodder can be nice if there is good TfB available.
#86 ▼3 Silk Road (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 15.36% / Unweighted Average: 19.85%  / Median: 11.7% / Standard Deviation: 21.29%

Again the loss for Alt-VP seems unwarranted, Silk Roads and Duchies can be a viable pathway to defeating strain province drains.
#85 =0 Death Cart (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 16.64% / Unweighted Average: 24.31%  / Median: 12.77% / Standard Deviation: 24.56%

Death Cart provides a very hefty + coin spike, but the cost of adding 2 junk cards to your deck is very high. Although, the ability to quickly drain multiple Supply piles can't be overlooked.
#84 =0 Noman Camp (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 17.71% / Unweighted Average: 20.02%  / Median: 17.02% / Standard Deviation: 14.44%

Nomad Camp is a pretty straightforward card. As +Buy goes it's pretty weak, but being +Buy there are plenty of boards where you have to pick one up.
#83 ▲4 Talisman (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 19.35% / Unweighted Average: 22.69%  / Median: 19.15% / Standard Deviation: 18.84%

Talisman gains an impressive 4 ranks. Ever since 2nd Editions, there have been a greater amount of powerful and spammable $4 cards, and adding multiple to your deck at once is nice.
#82 ▼3 Island (Seaside) Weighted Average: 21.49% / Unweighted Average: 24.75%  / Median: 19.15% / Standard Deviation: 18.23%

Island is weak trashing, and it's main benefit is being able to pseudo-trash Provinces and other high-point Victory cards. Sometimes you get it for the 2, but usually I just see them picked up by Workshops to add some side benefits to a deck.
#81 ▼3 Gardens (Base Set) Weighted Average: 21.92% / Unweighted Average: 25.56%  / Median: 19.15% / Standard Deviation: 20.96%

I would attribute Garden's drop to the recent introduction of very many very powerful trashers, starting with Donate, and recently Goat and Cathedral. It's still good with Beggar, but it can't beat engines that are able to get on their feet incredibly fast.
#80 ▲2 Trader (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 22.2% / Unweighted Average: 27.99%  / Median: 18.09% / Standard Deviation: 23.74%

If you need a crap ton of Silvers, look no further than Trader. If you don't, then, well, you'll probably never pick up this card.
#79 ▲1 Bard (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 22.24% / Unweighted Average: 24.57%  / Median: 19.15% / Standard Deviation: 17.05%

Bard is a powerful card most of the time, but it's unpredictability severely hampers its power. Getting Forest's, Field's, Flame's, or Eath's gifts can all do wonders, but it feels awful when you pop open the River's gift on a crucial turn.
#78 Exploration (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 22.28% / Unweighted Average: 23.21%  / Median: 16.3% / Standard Deviation: 17.69%

The first Renaissance card on this list, Exploration comes in at a respectable but disappointing place #78. Since it's a project it never really hurts to pick it up, but it doesn't trigger very often. If you're dudding very frequently, then this isn't going to save you. The best case for this is other Events(s) that you'll be buying multiple times. With Mission in particular, it can really get the tokens flowing in.
#77 ▲3 Rats (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 22.67% / Unweighted Average: 25.2%  / Median: 18.09% / Standard Deviation: 18.17%

Rats gains 3 spaces, possibly due to the recent addition of Dismantle, Recruiter, and Research, both TfB cards. If you don't let them get out of control then you can get plenty of Cards, , Villagers, Gains, or what have you out of them.
#76 ▼7 Cutpurse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 25.34% / Unweighted Average: 25.34%  / Median: 25.53% / Standard Deviation: 19.46%

Cutpurse drops seven ranks, making him one of tonight's biggest losers. Even if your opponent has copper around, losing one isn't going to ruin their turn, especially after the first few shuffles.
#75 ▲1 Miser (Adventures) Weighted Average: 25.99% / Unweighted Average: 29.63%  / Median: 24.47% / Standard Deviation: 21.2%

Miser takes too long to get anywhere. It does trash your copper instead of your opponent's, so it's at least significantly better than Pirate Ship.
#74 =0 Messenger (Adventures) Weighted Average: 27.93% / Unweighted Average: 28.34%  / Median: 26.6% / Standard Deviation: 16.69%

Messenger gives out cards to everyone, and who doesn't love that. Generally speaking, it's just a good way to empty piles because there aren't a lot of cases where you significantly want one card more than your opponent does. And because you probably forgot, it only triggers if it's the first buy of the turn.
#73 ▼2 Horse Traders (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 29.02% / Unweighted Average: 33.76%  / Median: 31.91% / Standard Deviation: 17.29%

Discard for benefit is a rare niche, but maybe it's what you need to get those Cursed Villages drawing up to par.
#72 ▲1 Salt the Earth (Empires) Weighted Average: 31.2% / Unweighted Average: 28.57%  / Median: 23.4% / Standard Deviation: 18.68%

Salt the Earth actually has a higher weighted average, an irregularity for cards so far down on this list. Salt the Earth is a weird card that rarely directly does anything but will always change the way the game is played out. Don't leave that last province exposed if you're not in a good position.
#71 ▼3 Secret Passage (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 31.72% / Unweighted Average: 33.13%  / Median: 30.85% / Standard Deviation: 19.3%

Secret Passage is technically a cantrip, but powerful combos with it are few and far between. At best, it's some form of gimped Laboratory with Mystic or Wishing Well.
#70 Dismantle (Promo) Weighted Average: 32.43% / Unweighted Average: 35.27%  / Median: 31.91% / Standard Deviation: 17.69%

At its first outing, Dismantle gets ranked #70, which is surprising to me. I see it get picked up pretty often and it's a really easy way to gain a lot of Golds. Late game, you can trash the Golds and get a for your troubles.
#69 ▲2 Pilgrimage (Adventures) Weighted Average: 32.54% / Unweighted Average: 32.42%  / Median: 26.6% / Standard Deviation: 21.23%

Pilgrimage costs 2 buys, which is a big turn off, especially without +Buy. But even without expensive cards in play it can be a good investment just to pick up so many cards at once.
#68 ▲6 Baron (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 32.7% / Unweighted Average: 34.38%  / Median: 30.85% / Standard Deviation: 19.21%

Baron gains an impressive 6 ranks. I guess people like how much money it gives? I'm surprised by its rise.
#67 ▼1 Armory (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 33.71% / Unweighted Average: 32.48%  / Median: 29.79% / Standard Deviation: 18.47%

Armoury is a workshop variant. The top-decking is nice, but it has a bit more competition at than its predecessor at . And depending on what you're gaining, the topdecking can be a drawback.
#66 ▲3 Scavenger (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 34.01% / Unweighted Average: 37.55%  / Median: 28.72% / Standard Deviation: 22.11%

Combos with Stash. We miss you Stash.
#65 ▼3 Poacher (Base Set) Weighted Average: 36.17% / Unweighted Average: 34.1%  / Median: 32.98% / Standard Deviation: 13.54%

Poacher drops three ranks. It would be a fine card without the penalty, but with it Poacher is significantly weaker. If one pile empties than it's an expensive Oasis, and if two are empty it's a really bad Mill.
#64 ▼5 Monument (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 37.42% / Unweighted Average: 42.46%  / Median: 36.17% / Standard Deviation: 20.06%

Monument is significantly higher ranked by worse players. The hard part for Monument is getting in enough plays that the s make a difference.
#63 Silos (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 38.06% / Unweighted Average: 36.6%  / Median: 35.11% / Standard Deviation: 19.76%

Silos is the next Renaissance card. If there's no Copper trashing then it's a must-buy, with Copper trashing it's very skippable. I don't think there's much strategical nuance in this Project. You either get it early or you don't get it at all. But maybe powerful Silos/trasher open strategies will be developed to use the early cycling boost?
#62 ▲1 Duplicate (Adventures) Weighted Average: 39.09% / Unweighted Average: 42.73%  / Median: 39.06% / Standard Deviation: 18.11%

Duplicate is nice, but it's terminal. Unless you're planning a megaturn with Bridge it doesn't usually shine.
#61 ▲1 Skulk (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 39.69% / Unweighted Average: 42.21%  / Median: 34.78% / Standard Deviation: 20.96%

Skulk I think is underrated. Gaining a free Gold is very nice with Encampment, Legionary, and TfB. Also, it's +Buy, and sometimes the attack does something important. Don't sleep on this one.
#60 Fair (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 39.92% / Unweighted Average: 41.66%  / Median: 40.43% / Standard Deviation: 17.94%

Seems like a fair ranking to me. Again, I don't see much strategical nuance in this card.
#59 Flag Bearer (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 40.47% / Unweighted Average: 48.03%  / Median: 39.36% / Standard Deviation: 23.51%

A very controversial card, Flag Bearer has an 8% lower weighted average and 24% standard deviation. Many people see this as a trap card, and are very split on when, if ever, it's the right move to be the first to buy one.
#58 ▼4 Walled Village (Promo) Weighted Average: 45.8% / Unweighted Average: 48.03%  / Median: 45.74% / Standard Deviation: 17.92%

Villages are nice, moving on.
#57 Patron (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 45.86% / Unweighted Average: 45.39%  / Median: 41.49% / Standard Deviation: 17.27%

Patron is another newcomer. It's strictly* better than Silver at . Major combos include: Hunting Party, City Quarter, Seer, and, of course, Black Market.
#56 ▼2 Bishop (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 46.23% / Unweighted Average: 51.55%  / Median: 46.81% / Standard Deviation: 26.48%

The highest standard deviation on the list, Bishop is a controversial card, to say the least. It's hard to figure out how much the trashing for your opponent helps them. When does that make it not worth it?
#55 ▲6 Necromancer (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 46.6% / Unweighted Average: 45.81%  / Median: 44.68% / Standard Deviation: 21.12%

Zombie Apprentice is honestly a really good card, and the Necromancer army is very powerful and flexible.
#54 ▼8 Diplomat (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 47.26% / Unweighted Average: 45.34%  / Median: 43.62% / Standard Deviation: 19.25%

Apparently Diplomat is much harder to activate than previously thought. Lost cities at 4 are nice, but with all the hoops you have to jump through it just doesn't work a decent amount of the time.
#53 ▲3 Remodel (Base Set) Weighted Average: 50.37% / Unweighted Average: 49.85%  / Median: 46.81% / Standard Deviation: 16.7%

Remodel is a tad underrated, it should be in the top half. The pile control is impressive.
#52 ▼8 Mill (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 50.78% / Unweighted Average: 49.16%  / Median: 46.81% / Standard Deviation: 18.67%

Another large drop in Intrigue, this time for Mill. Apparently, it's hard to make it produce the maximal amount of gold for the maximal amount of people.
#51 ▲5 Ranger (Adventures) Weighted Average: 51.1% / Unweighted Average: 49.15%  / Median: 47.87% / Standard Deviation: 16.43%

Just remember, always leave your token face down so it's easier to kick off your next turn.
#50 Research (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 52.3% / Unweighted Average: 52.47%  / Median: 53.19% / Standard Deviation: 19.17%

Research is a weak trasher, deserving of it's place in the middle. I expect it to drop a bit in future years.
#49 ▲1 Conclave (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 52.46% / Unweighted Average: 53.96%  / Median: 51.06% / Standard Deviation: 16.59%

Conclave is a tricky village, but it provides a decent amount of .
#48 =0 Engineer (Empires) Weighted Average: 52.85% / Unweighted Average: 51.21%  / Median: 51.06% / Standard Deviation: 20.42%

Engineer's best ability is being able to trash itself once it's worn out its welcome. Also, you can squeak it in on the 4/3.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 01:02:16 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Chappy7

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2019, 12:19:50 pm »
+4

Quote
We miss you Stash

No we don't
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2019, 12:28:34 pm »
+3

I probably missed this discussion earlier; but are first-edition cards left out of the rankings? I would assume so, otherwise where is Thief?

I disagree with that; just because a card isn't in the second printing of Dominion doesn't make it any less an official and real Dominion card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2019, 12:55:56 pm »
0

But I thought Bureaucrat was supposed to be one of the most powerful cards in Dominion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2019, 01:04:18 pm »
+1

I probably missed this discussion earlier; but are first-edition cards left out of the rankings? I would assume so, otherwise where is Thief?

I disagree with that; just because a card isn't in the second printing of Dominion doesn't make it any less an official and real Dominion card.

Disagree with your disagreement.

Anyway, Cutpurse is way too low.  In the early game, it's better than Militia.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2019, 01:07:54 pm »
+4

I probably missed this discussion earlier; but are first-edition cards left out of the rankings? I would assume so, otherwise where is Thief?

I disagree with that; just because a card isn't in the second printing of Dominion doesn't make it any less an official and real Dominion card.

Yes, they are left out. I think there's a multitude of good reasons:

1) You can no longer purchase them (excluding used versions). New players won't be playing with them. They are still "real" and "official" Dominion cards but they've been phased out from the product line.

2) They aren't available online. That's where most people play Dominion nowadays and it would be weird to rank them when most people don't use them (stash notwithstanding).

3) They're all crap anyway, why bother spending time and effort just to throw them on the bottom.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2019, 01:08:18 pm »
0

I probably missed this discussion earlier; but are first-edition cards left out of the rankings? I would assume so, otherwise where is Thief?

I disagree with that; just because a card isn't in the second printing of Dominion doesn't make it any less an official and real Dominion card.

Disagree with your disagreement.

Anyway, Cutpurse is way too low.  In the early game, it's better than Militia.

Curious on what grounds. Are these supposed to be the "Second Edition Dominion Card Lists" or the "Dominion Card Lists"?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2019, 01:53:05 pm »
+2

I probably missed this discussion earlier; but are first-edition cards left out of the rankings? I would assume so, otherwise where is Thief?

I disagree with that; just because a card isn't in the second printing of Dominion doesn't make it any less an official and real Dominion card.

Disagree with your disagreement.

Anyway, Cutpurse is way too low.  In the early game, it's better than Militia.

Curious on what grounds. Are these supposed to be the "Second Edition Dominion Card Lists" or the "Dominion Card Lists"?

I would say they aren't official anymore. Donald X. has said on BGG (and probably elsewhere too), "I recommend that you stop using the replaced cards". My understanding is that they are no longer part of the Dominion canon, and not worth the trouble ranking. They also weren't ranked in 2017.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 01:54:06 pm by crlundy »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2019, 05:44:24 pm »
+2

I would say they aren't official anymore. Donald X. has said on BGG (and probably elsewhere too), "I recommend that you stop using the replaced cards". My understanding is that they are no longer part of the Dominion canon, and not worth the trouble ranking. They also weren't ranked in 2017.

Donald has specifically said that they are official and part of Dominion.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2019, 07:53:55 pm »
+1

A lot of very underrated cards here:

Miser: A single Miser is too slow, yes. But when you're doing a Miser strategy (which is the right move a lot of the time) you always get more than one.

Dismantle: Turning an Estate into a Copper and gaining a Gold is pretty good on its own, and then there's the other stuff it does.

Pilgrimage: Duplicate your 3 best best cards, for just $8 spread over 2 turns? Sign me up!

Skulk: Skulk follows the principle that a good turn and a bad turn is better than 2 mediocre turns. The Gold is great for spiking high prices early even if your Skulk hand is a dud.

Ranger: Good draw card, especially considering how few decent draw cards there are at this price range.

Again the loss for Alt-VP seems unwarranted, Silk Roads and Duchies can be a viable pathway to defeating strain province drains.

Silk Road is just a bad deal. You need 4 green cards to make it worth even 1 puny VP. I have never been impressed with it and very often been disappointed by it.

Anyway, Cutpurse is way too low.  In the early game, it's better than Militia.

I'd say it's about on par with it. They both usually take $1 away from you in the beginning.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 08:04:46 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2019, 02:06:50 am »
0

This list has way more major discrepancies from mine than any other list so far:

Discrepancies where I think I was wrong:
Talisman  (83) my list: 89
Ritual  (91) my list: 66
  I don't know why I put Ritual that high...

Discrepancies where I think the list is wrong:
Bard  (79) my list: 63
  I think people underestimate boons. They're (mostly) unpredictable, but they're (almost always) good.
Patron  (57) my list: 44
Remodel  (53) my list: 42
Research  (50) my list: 37
  Non-terminal trashing is good. Draw at the start of your turn is also good.
Conclave  (49) my list: 31 
  It's basically a Festival without the +buy unless you need to play several of the same terminal card.
Engineer  (48) my list: 62

Discrepancies where I think both are wrong:  (the card belongs somewhere in between)
Gardens  (81) my list: 65
Horse Traders  (73) my list: 57
Mill  (52) my list: 34
Monument  (64) my list: 21
Bishop  (56) my list: 16
  Yeah, I always overrate Bishop and Monument, but they belong in the top half at least.

I just don't know and I know that I don't know:
Silos  (63) my list: 74
Duplicate  (62) my list: 48
Fair  (60) my list: 73
Salt the Earth  (72) my list: <didn't rate this one>
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 02:08:19 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2019, 10:50:05 am »
0

Some thoughts.

1. Alt-VP I do not think is underrated. I agree with Feodum and Silk Road being that low, they're not very good cards. Gardens being over Silk Road is a joke though.

2. I would have liked to see Talisman go higher, I buy it maybe just under half the time now.

3. Exploration I feel is quite a bit higher than where it currently is, but it does feel bad to skip a turn, so I wouldn't have expected otherwise. Silos is lower than where I'd put it too. Probably I'd put both above Fair.

4. Necromancer is waaaaaaaaaay too low. It's criminal how low it is, even with the rise.

5. Ranger doesn't even deserve to be in the bottom half of this list, it should be way higher. Ranger is a fantastic card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2019, 11:33:36 am »
+1

Anyway, Cutpurse is way too low.  In the early game, it's better than Militia.
I'd say it's about on par with it. They both usually take $1 away from you in the beginning.
It strikes me that Militia kills variance more than Cutpurse does?

Cutpurse takes $1 away from almost any early hand; Militia takes nothing from bad hands but $2 from good ones.

Doesn't that mean Militia's going to hurt more when people are trying to make their first $5 purchase?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2019, 12:35:36 pm »
0

Anyway, Cutpurse is way too low.  In the early game, it's better than Militia.
I'd say it's about on par with it. They both usually take $1 away from you in the beginning.
It strikes me that Militia kills variance more than Cutpurse does?

Cutpurse takes $1 away from almost any early hand; Militia takes nothing from bad hands but $2 from good ones.

Doesn't that mean Militia's going to hurt more when people are trying to make their first $5 purchase?

Yes, it hurts a bit more in that situation on average because it can cut you down to $3 instead of $4. But that difference is pretty small compared to the nastiness both of them cause by taking away your first $5.
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DG

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2019, 12:58:39 pm »
+5

It strikes me that Militia kills variance more than Cutpurse does?

Cutpurse takes $1 away from almost any early hand; Militia takes nothing from bad hands but $2 from good ones.

Doesn't that mean Militia's going to hurt more when people are trying to make their first $5 purchase?


Militia is stronger as it cuts down your options whether you want to buy, recycle, trash, or do anything else you need cards to do.
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2019, 10:18:58 am »
+2

*All stats are from those collected by markus
**I have some major disagreements with this list.

Major deviations (19+) from my personal list
82: Island (56) - Stats suggest that Island has been terribly underrated for a long while now.  The winner gains Island 59% of games - and an average of 1.7 copies (including games when it's not gained).  Let's compare to its neighbors in the community ranking: Talisman (30%), Gardens (40%), Trader (32%).  And all of those cards seem to be significantly overgained, unlike Island.  In fact, excluding the cards I call out below, you have to go all the way up to Walled Village before you find a card on this list gained more than Island!  So, the stats show Island is gained quite a lot: why?  Island is very conveniently gained by workshop variants, and action gainers.  Island + Province is a cost-effective greening strategy that keeps a deck reliable.  Island is not a very good opener, so try not to make that mistake.  This card belongs up near the middle of this list, not with the truly weak $4 cards (of which there are many).

61: Skulk (38) - Another seriously underrated card.  Skulk is gained by the winner in 76% of games.  There are only two cards in this bottom half that exceed that, and you can be sure I'm going to discuss them.  Skulk is a $4 Gold that comes with a card that is often better than nothing.  Skulk is fantastic with trash for benefit cards (Apprentice, Upgrade, Recruiter, etc...).  Skulk is solid payload to add in a kingdom with sufficient draw.  Skulk is also good in sloppy decks with good filtering.  Skulk is so often part of the best deck that I am shocked to find it in the lower half of this list.

59: Flag Bearer (27) - Wow.  What a dismal initial showing for Flag Bearer.  Flag Bearer brings up some interesting questions about what it means for a card to be good.  Certainly, it would put you at a huge disadvantage to never contest Flag Bearer.  +1 card forever (and a terminal Silver) for a mere $4 is unrivaled value.  So, it must be that Flag Bearer's low votes are from people who believe that it is rarely correct to gain the first Flag Bearer.  Taking the Flag from an opponent is more valuable than taking it from the ether, so there could be some truth to this.  Let's take a look at the stats!  The winner gains Flag Bearer is a whopping 92% of games - and is the first player to gain Flag Bearer in exactly half of those games!  This is the third most gained $4 card overall!  While the second mover advantage might seem strong in theory, there is usually a point in the game where it pays to be the first mover on Flag Bearer.  This can be because you have trash for benefit and better deck control, or you expect your opponent won't be able to gain Flag Bearer on their next turn without making a large sacrifice.  Flag Bearer has a large impact on games, and I expect it to significantly rise in the rankings next year.

54: Diplomat (35) - This was an undeserved drop.  +2 cards, +2 actions for $4 is very strong.  I'm going to look for a way to make that happen whenever Diplomat is in the kingdom.  With two Diplomats in the deck, even if only one activates, you get a net +2 cards; as good as playing two Laboratories.  Diplomat can reliably activate any time the opponent is playing an attack, or there is an attractive non-terminal way to decrease handsize.  The winner gains Diplomat in 59% of games - 2.0 copies on average.  This is a bit less than, say, Farming Village, but with a much more powerful effect that I think it gets the edge.

53: Remodel (32) - Remodel is underappreciated.  Between turning Estates into engine components, Silver into $5s, and Golds into Provinces, it's rare to find a board where Remodel doesn't accelerate a build or enhance payload.  The winner gains Remodel in 65% of games, which exceeds many cards in the top half including the highly rated Procession, Moneylender, and Quarry.

52: Mill (24) - I get Mill a lot.  And judging from the markus stats, most of you do, too.  Mill is gained by the winner in 79% of games and the pile empties in 31% of games in which it appears!  Mill is one of the best non-terminal openers to hit $5, it continues to discard Estates or extra terminals for gain in the midgame, and later on can discard Provinces while boosting your payload.  And all the while, these Mills you've been collecting are adding to your point total, perhaps forcing your opponent to get a nasty Duchy to compensate.  Like Island, Mill is easy to gain and has all the same victory card synergies (Battlefield, Ironworks, etc...).  Mill actually dropping ranks is baffling.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 10:24:46 am by aku_chi »
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trivialknot

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2019, 11:10:07 am »
0

[Flag Bearer] is the third most gained $4 card overall!
From what I can see, it's in 4th, after Tournament, Magpie, and Silk Merchant.

Flag Bearer was even in my top 10.  I don't really stand by my rankings, but what can I say, we usually got Flag Bearer.  And when we did get it, we got a lot of them and it was very game-dominating.  And the stats show that other people have had a similar experiences, so I'm puzzled that people think it's weak.

Earlier I made a sim and it seems like first Flag Bearer is pretty bad in a single-card kingdom.  So, In the future I will think harder before getting the first one.  But I think first Flag Bearer is good in a lot more situations than the sim suggests.  The thing about the single-card kingdom is that your opponent only needs to pass up on gold to take the flag away from you, but in a real kingdom there are much better options than gold, so taking the flag comes with a more serious opportunity cost. 
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2019, 11:33:10 am »
+1

[Flag Bearer] is the third most gained $4 card overall!
From what I can see, it's in 4th, after Tournament, Magpie, and Silk Merchant.

Good catch.  I missed Magpie.

Flag Bearer was even in my top 10.  I don't really stand by my rankings, but what can I say, we usually got Flag Bearer.  And when we did get it, we got a lot of them and it was very game-dominating.  And the stats show that other people have had a similar experiences, so I'm puzzled that people think it's weak.

Earlier I made a sim and it seems like first Flag Bearer is pretty bad in a single-card kingdom.  So, In the future I will think harder before getting the first one.  But I think first Flag Bearer is good in a lot more situations than the sim suggests.  The thing about the single-card kingdom is that your opponent only needs to pass up on gold to take the flag away from you, but in a real kingdom there are much better options than gold, so taking the flag comes with a more serious opportunity cost.

It's hard for a sim to capture the situations in which getting the first Flag Bearer is correct.  If you're tracking your opponent's deck, you can identify situations where it's awkward for them to buy Flag Bearer.  This could happen as early as turn 3/4 where you see that your opponent opened to buy a key $5 card, but missed it on turn 3.  If you're sitting with $4 before their 4th turn and buy Flag Bearer, you put them in a bind where they either need to pass up on the key $5 or give you multiple turns with the Flag.  Other situations include:
  • Opponent going into debt.
  • Opponent being over-terminalled and really needing to get villages.
  • Opponent needing to all his buys/$ for greening.

And then there are situations where you build your deck to better gain and trash Flag Bearer.  Maybe you picked up an Ironworks, Remodel, or Procession and your opponent didn't.  At this point, you're better positioned to gain or trash a Flag Bearer each turn, so starting the Flag minigame will favor you.

Finally, there might be a situation where you know that the extra card on your next turn will be critical.  Maybe you track your deck and realize that a turn 3 Flag Bearer will guarantee that you hit $6 on turn 4 for a crucial Altar or something.  It might be correct to buy Flag Bearer even though it starts the Flag minigame on slightly poor terms.

The case for never getting the first Flag Bearer is very weak.  (At least in 2-player games.  It seems more dubious to be able to keep the Flag in a 3+ player game - thought there are still cases where you can build a deck where gaining and trashing Flag Bearer on alternate turns is low-cost.)
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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2019, 08:17:02 am »
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Quote
Patron is ... strictly* better than Silver at .
Maybe I overlooked the caveat the asterisk seems to be pointing to, but: Silver can't be drawn dead.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2019, 08:30:43 am »
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Quote
Patron is ... strictly* better than Silver at .
Maybe I overlooked the caveat the asterisk seems to be pointing to, but: Silver can't be drawn dead.
There wasn't a caveat that was written out, but I added the asterisk as a shorthand to denote the slew of edge cases where Patron is better than Silver. Ignoring types and drawing dead, Patron is just a Silver with a reaction that can provide a Villager.
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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2019, 09:11:49 am »
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Villager Coffer (if the "that" refers to the reaction; the Villager only makes the Patron non-terminal).
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 09:12:59 am by ipofanes »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2019, 09:15:33 am »
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Villager Coffer (if the "that" refers to the reaction; the Villager only makes the Patron non-terminal).

Whoops, Silver that can provide a Villager, not a reaction that can provide a Villager, that was unclear. And the Villager can do more than make Patron non-terminal. If you don't have any more actions you can keep the Villager and use it as engine grease, it can be pretty significant.
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trivialknot

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2019, 01:18:57 pm »
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While Patron can be drawn dead, in practice you usually have an extra villager lying around, and can spend it to play Patron and get the villager back.  Not only that, but you can play any other non-terminals in hand before playing the Patron.  Terminal Draw + Patron + Cantrips is a thing, and it's good.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2019, 02:31:50 pm »
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It's fine that Patron is strictly* better than Silver at ; pretty much all the reasons that Donald avoids having a better-than-Silver at only apply to strictly better, not to strictly* better.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $4 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2019, 03:17:19 pm »
+1

It's fine that Patron is strictly* better than Silver at ; pretty much all the reasons that Donald avoids having a better-than-Silver at only apply to strictly better, not to strictly* better.
Patron causes the problem that I avoided for many years by not making Silver-with-a-bonus at $4, though it dodges being strictly better than $4 Silver on paper because you need to play it once to have a villager to not draw it dead. I decided to live with it for that one card and in practice it doesn't come up so often, though I have seen it.
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