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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)  (Read 2769 times)

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Seprix

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« on: February 13, 2019, 06:14:25 pm »
+15

The Best Cards

Last year's most important list was the Boons and Hexes. This year, it's all about the $3 costs, baby.

#64 ▼1 Fortune Teller (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 5.5% / Unweighted Average: 8.75% (64) / Median:3.17% / Standard Deviation: 18.32%

A poor terminal Silver, Fortune Teller doesn’t hurt the opponent too much with the exception of skipping his opening buys. There are a couple of cute tricks like pairing Fortune Teller with a Legionary attack or Governor draw, but by and large it is an incredibly mediocre card and likely deserves the last spot.
#63 ▼1 Banquet (Empires) Weighted Average: 8.2% / Unweighted Average: 10.24% (63) / Median:3.17% / Standard Deviation: 15.61%

Banquet is a weak (but dynamic) Event, and it lends itself best to sloggy games. Whether there is an Ill-Gotten Gains rush, Mountebank or an Idol rush, Banquet is there for you. There are also combinations that work well with Banquet, such as fuel for Pooka and Spice Merchant. However, the sad truth of the matter is that such games are rare, and Banquet rarely gets bought as a result. My personal take is that there’s some legroom for Banquet play to grow, and it could see a rise in the years to come.
#62 ▲2 Masterpiece (Guilds) Weighted Average: 9.03% / Unweighted Average: 14.4% (62) / Median:4.76% / Standard Deviation: 22.67%

If Fortune Teller wasn’t on the bottom, I’d put Masterpiece there for sure. Outside of money, some Guildhall strategies, Feodum and Tower rushes, Masterpiece is often completely ignorable.
#61 ▼3 Harbinger (Base) Weighted Average: 13.18% / Unweighted Average: 19.15% (61) / Median:11.11% / Standard Deviation: 19.38%

Harbinger almost never hurts a deck, but it also almost never helps it. If the deck can draw itself already, Harbinger does little to nothing. If the deck is a sloppy mess, why is Harbinger being bought over Silver or some other equivalent? The sad truth is that Harbinger often gets bought more because it’s not Silver than for what it does. Still, it can save turns, albeit inconsistently.
#60 ▲1 Fool (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 13.85% / Unweighted Average: 19.8% (59) / Median:9.52% / Standard Deviation: 24.01%

Playing Fool to take Lost In The Woods gives an adrenaline rush, but afterward becomes a total dud. If the opponent wants to get in on the action, Fool becomes a much better card. If not, the player gets access to a mediocre State ability which trades a card for a Boon, which may or may not be worth it depending on the deck.
#59 ▲1 Sage (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 16.1% / Unweighted Average: 19.61% (60) / Median:11.11% / Standard Deviation: 20.22%

Sage is not a very good card, but it fills a niche role as a cycler. If there is a crucial card that needs to be played early on, such as a Traveller Line, Sage does its best work. Otherwise, Sage becomes harder to justify. At the end of the day, Sage is still just a fancy cantrip.
#58 ▲1 Tunnel (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 18.6% / Unweighted Average: 27.17% (56) / Median:15.87% / Standard Deviation: 23.72%

There was always the dream to print Golds with Tunnel. Until Renaissance, most of the options were mediocre. Now with Crop Rotation, Tunnel has a serious legitimate combo card that can rack up VP in the upper 40s in about 14-15 turns. However, one great option is not enough alone to save Tunnel from the lower half of the list.
#57 =0 Caravan Guard (Adventures) Weighted Average: 22.15% / Unweighted Average: 22.32% (58) / Median:20.63% / Standard Deviation: 14.23%

Caravan Guard is at worst a delayed Peddler, and at best a Peddler. The reaction effect is surprisingly decent, and even the delayed coin can work well at spiking price points. However, it is the lack of attacks which brings Caravan Guard to its knees in effectiveness, as the delayed coin effect is hard to space properly. Still, Caravan Guard will be picked up, it is cheap and it does its job well enough.
#56 =0 Trade Route (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 22.55% / Unweighted Average: 28.72% (53) / Median:20.63% / Standard Deviation: 26.94%

Trade Route is a slow and mediocre trasher that doesn’t help hit $5. The coin generation it provides isn’t very good until the late game, when it is almost too late. In addition, if Trade Route is the only gain on the board, one could think of it as a “fake buy”, because one has to trash to get the extra gain.
#55 =0 Secret Cave (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 22.79% / Unweighted Average: 24.7% (57) / Median:23.81% / Standard Deviation: 16.74%

Secret Cave is a strange card that is best suited to popping the Lamp it automatically comes with. Discarding three cards for $3 on the next turn is a steep cost, but it does stay in play the next turn. Time it right, and the Lamp gets popped. There are times discarding is actively great to do (such as spiking price points or draw-to-X), but more often than not Secret Cave is a cantrip with upside.
#54 ▼1 Storeroom (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 23.2% / Unweighted Average: 27.27% (55) / Median:19.05% / Standard Deviation: 20.14%

A decent cycler in the opening, a coin generator for dead cards and a source of buy, Storeroom fulfils a solid support role. There are tons of tricks as well, such as setting up Doctor/Sentry trashes and Draw-to-X.
#53 ▼3 Farmers' Market (Empires) Weighted Average: 26.4% / Unweighted Average: 31.62% (50) / Median:26.98% / Standard Deviation: 18.65%

Farmers’ Market is an odd card that works well because it inherently encourages more to be picked up. The first purchase is weak, and it takes more than one play to get anything decent out of it. However the opponent will see the purchase and will often take one of his own to get the better rewards. Timing the Farmers’ Market buy is usually key in playing with it effectively. Just remember that it’s a payload card. It shines best when it can be played consistently and often. (And yes I think it’s underrated on this list)
#52 ▼1 Oasis (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 27.19% / Unweighted Average: 28.56% (54) / Median:22.22% / Standard Deviation: 18.93%

Oasis is a decent peddler if there is something junky to discard. Usually the card is just mediocre but is occasionally a good opener. They get bad quickly though, so often it’s bad to put too many into a deck.
#51 ▼2 Leprechaun (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 28.06% / Unweighted Average: 32.25% (48) / Median:23.81% / Standard Deviation: 22.64%

Taking a Gold for a Hex is not a terrible trade for $3, and the potential promise of a Wish only sweetens the pot of gold. However, Leprechaun suffers from what is quickly becoming a trend with the lower rated cards, in that it has a lack of consistency. Sometimes the deck just won’t find a Leprechaun in time, or sometimes a decision has to be made with ending the turn to take a Wish.
#50 ▼8 Night Watchman (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 29.27% / Unweighted Average: 33.42% (47) / Median:33.33% / Standard Deviation: 19.76%

Look at that SHARP drop. Wow. Night Watchman has some cool combos with Counting House. If you open Night Watchman with Silver, you can guarantee drawing $5 and shuffle by turn 3. If the entire deck is drawn, any cards gained afterwards can be topdecked. And yet for all of that, Night Watchman remains a niche card that doesn’t do much besides momentum building.
#49 ▲5 Vassal (Base) Weighted Average: 30.03% / Unweighted Average: 35.77% (46) / Median:28.57% / Standard Deviation: 23.81%

The feeling I have is that Vassal is still better than how much it has risen (and I am thankful for the rise), but it is hard to deny that Vassal is a scary prospect without deck scouting. The nightmare scenario is whiffing the play and then the turn is done, and that does happen. However, Vassal shines even with just competent deck thinning, and most decks don’t mind at least a couple of Vassals.
#48 ▼1 Develop (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 30.23% / Unweighted Average: 29.59% (52) / Median:26.98% / Standard Deviation: 22.07%

Develop has always been underrated, and that trend continues this year. It seriously dropped a spot. The strength of Develop does not come from trashing, but rather from pile control and gaining. The topdecking effect lends itself well to controlled decks, and the best players can milk magic out of Develop in ways that continue to surprise. That being said, there are many boards where Develop just does not do much.
#47 ▲5 Gladiator (Empires) Weighted Average: 31.03% / Unweighted Average: 31.78% (49) / Median:30.16% / Standard Deviation: 17.91%

The interesting thing about Gladiator is that it is quite decent just at being a terminal $3, but it is nearly impossible to land at the beginning with the starting cards. Between this and the fact that it quickly gets made obsolete by better terminal options as the game progresses, it is not too surprising that Gladiator falls this low, despite the rise this year. However, do not underestimate the tempo power of choosing when to reveal Fortune with Gladiator.
#46 ▲2 Oracle (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 32.46% / Unweighted Average: 31.09% (51) / Median:28.57% / Standard Deviation: 17.23%

Oracle is a deeper card than at first glance. The attack is underrated, and the cycle option is quite good, rewarding deck tracking. It is a fairly decent open, albeit outshined a lot of the time by more powerful cards. However, get the lucky hit and skip the opponent’s Chapel, and that Oracle suddenly looks like a good decision.
#45 City Gate (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 32.71% / Unweighted Average: 36.78% (43) / Median:30.16% / Standard Deviation: 21.89%
 
So this is where City Gate places on the first rating. Newer cards tend to be underranked, and because of this alone City Gate should rise as the years go by. However, opening City Gate is quite good, and guarantees the other opening card doesn’t miss the shuffle. City Gate also helps with deck smoothing or spiking early on. Even while it gets weaker late game, City Gate has the potential to save a turn.
#44 =0 Merchant (Base) Weighted Average: 36.55% / Unweighted Average: 36.5% (44) / Median:36.51% / Standard Deviation: 15.19%

A cheap peddler is quite good, but it does have a condition, and if Silver is not in play at the end of the turn, then Merchant does nothing. Merchant becomes a solid option as the game progresses, but does not do much in the opening.
#43 =0 Guide (Adventures) Weighted Average: 37.17% / Unweighted Average: 39.44% (40) / Median:34.92% / Standard Deviation: 19.16%

It’s almost never a bad idea to pick up a Guide at some point, because Guide is both a turn saver and a cycler. However, Guide does not do much else, and the less Guides are called, the less efficient they become.
#42 ▲3 Workshop (Base) Weighted Average: 37.86% / Unweighted Average: 38.67% (41) / Median:31.75% / Standard Deviation: 17.41%

Workshop is an investment. Over time, Workshop will do more gaining than simply buying cards. However, between the rise in explosive fast decks and the fact that it is terminal, Workshop has often been looked over in favor of better options. It has seen a slight rise this year however.
#41 ▼7 Changeling (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 37.95% / Unweighted Average: 37.58% (42) / Median:34.92% / Standard Deviation: 20.48%

Changeling saw a huge drop from last year. Changeling is still a relatively new card, and finding the proper slot will take some time. Changeling is nice for a multitude of tricks, from getting a delayed high cost card, helping get to a pileout, or even something as crazy as converting the Province from Dominate to maintain consistency. Despite the deep drop, Changeling is still a formidable card, and mastery over it will win a lot of games.
#40 =0 Shanty Town (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 38.17% / Unweighted Average: 39.83% (39) / Median:38.1% / Standard Deviation: 17.71%

While a decent opener, Shanty Town gets worse and worse the more action cards are added. Still, a Village is a Village, even if it is a Necropolis. There’s really not much else to say. It’s a Village. You’ll get a Village.
#39 ▼1 Expedition (Adventures) Weighted Average: 41.65% / Unweighted Average: 43.91% (36) / Median:42.86% / Standard Deviation: 15.25%

Good in both the opening and in general for spiking price points, Expedition is best used as supplementary draw. In addition, it can provide more consistency the next turn. Despite all of this, Expedition has never been that inspiring and I could see it drop lower than it currently has, honestly.
#38 ▼1 Loan (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 42.35% / Unweighted Average: 41.79% (38) / Median:36.51% / Standard Deviation: 22.11%

The ultimate feelsbad trasher, Loan has the distinction of skipping over all of your good cards and revealing a Gold. It doesn’t help hit $5 and it’s slow. This feeling is only increasing with more and more examples of powerful trashers as the number of expansions increase. While bad luck certainly does happen with Loan, it is worth the cycling and non-terminality that it provides. Sometimes, you just need a Loan.
#37 ▲2 Wishing Well (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 42.61% / Unweighted Average: 36% (45) / Median:33.33% / Standard Deviation: 18.66%

Stef’s favorite card comes up next on the list. The ultimate example of the power of deck tracking and skill, Wishing Well continues to reward good players and punish bad ones. While it certainly gets worse the longer a game goes on, Wishing Well is still a solid card to put into any deck. Always remember: If there are multiple Wells in hand and a certain card is needed, name the cards that make the deck dud first.
#36 ▲6 Smugglers (Seaside) Weighted Average: 42.77% / Unweighted Average: 43.86% (37) / Median:41.27% / Standard Deviation: 19.88%

Smugglers is a very swingy card that has been building up a strong reputation again lately. Look how high this thing went up! Taking a card that the opponent took last turn is quite fantastic for only $3, and it helps close the Duchy race as well. It has gotten to the point where people attempt to track where the Smugglers is in the opponent’s deck, so they can gain the least useful cards to make the Smugglers less effective. If a card is strong enough to make people do that, maybe it should be higher.
#35 Improve (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 42.95% / Unweighted Average: 44.14% (35) / Median:41.27% / Standard Deviation: 26.29%
 
Being both a new and complex card, it makes sense that Improve has been placed where it is. The strengths of Improve are numerous, and it is tactically useful throughout the entirety of the game. A lot of the strength of Improve depends on the strength of the $4 and $5 costs. Improve is already a Silver, and can be blown up at any time into a $4 while buying a $5, giving an incredible amount of tempo. Just remember that when an Action card is blown up into a higher cost, it can be any type of card. Forges can be turned into Provinces.
#34 Acting Troupe (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 43.75% / Unweighted Average: 45.7% (34) / Median:42.86% / Standard Deviation: 18.4%

Next up is a wonky Village that so far seems best suited to consistency rather than being the primary Village. I have yet to see a board where hoarding all of these is the key to victory, but I’m sure someone else has, somewhere.
#33 Pageant (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 45.68% / Unweighted Average: 45.87% (33) / Median:49.21% / Standard Deviation: 23.22%

A nifty Project, Pageant converts any extra coin into coffers. The powerful thing about coffers is that the closer the game is to ending, the more pressure they put on the opponent. So from flexibility to game pressure, Pageant provides a convenient way to store up coffers.

Part 2 coming tomorrow. Stay tuned.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 06:16:38 pm by Seprix »
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2019, 07:25:28 pm »
0

Predictive statistics: Market Square and Doctor have both risen by at least +1 in the rankings.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2019, 08:01:56 pm »
0

The ones I differed most with (10 spots or more):

Farmers' Market (53 vs my 27): This is good payload. It's much worse if you can't play multiple copies, but, well, that's how payload works.

Leprechaun (53 vs my 38): Okay, I admit I'm biased because this is one of my favorite cards. Still, Wishes are super good.

Night Watchman (50 vs my 31): Perfectly good inspector with some neat Night tricks.

Gladiator (47 vs my 35): Good to see its rise, but still underrated. It doesn't matter that it's a terminal Silver in the beginning because it's unlikely to collide and it cost $3 anyway. And then it turns into a friggin terminal Gold...

Oracle (46 vs my 59): This is like Moat and Faithful Hound in that it feels like there's always something better to draw with.

Workshop (42 vs my 57): Sort of like Oracle in that it first looks okay but then later seems not worth the space it takes up.

Smugglers (36 vs my 47): I might have underrated this. Still, the swinginess, terminality and lack of a periphery benefit are all problems.

Improve (35 vs my 54): I freely admit that this is a new card and I have no idea how to use it. Ultimately, though, trashing your precious Action cards is something you usually don't want to do; even if it gives you a better Action card, the loss of the cheaper one's functionality usually hurts, otherwise you wouldn't have bought it in the first place.

Oh, and I approve of Vassal's rise.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 08:07:26 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2019, 09:07:02 pm »
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Develop is underrated. Loan is overrated. Gladiator is slightly overrated. Nightwatchman is underrated.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2019, 11:18:42 pm »
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Within two years I expect City Gate will rise at least 15 ranks. It's one of the best Projects that isn't obviously good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2019, 12:37:25 am »
+1

As usual, Trade Route and Loan should both be about 50pp higher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2019, 01:50:59 am »
0

I underrated City Gate and Loan. But Doctor really should be in the lower half.
Harbinger is weak, but it should be higher than Sage.

Other big disagreements with this list:

Farmer's Market  #53, my list: 36
I hate this card, but it isn't weak.

Night Watchman  #50, my list: 22
Maybe I had it slightly higher than it really deserves, but it's still way underrated on this list.

Gladiator  #47, my list: 26
It's usually a terminal gold for $3. not bad at all.

Oracle  #46, my list: 35

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2019, 02:05:07 am »
+2

Newer cards tend to be underranked

Nocturne rating changes on this list:

Fool up 1
Secret Cave no change
Leprechaun  down 2
Night Watchman down 8
Changeling down 7
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2019, 02:22:00 am »
+1

Also, I prefer writeups with more statstics and less personal opinion, but then again, this is just my personal opinion.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2019, 02:40:03 am »
0

Newer cards tend to be underranked

Nocturne rating changes on this list:

Fool up 1
Secret Cave no change
Leprechaun  down 2
Night Watchman down 8
Changeling down 7

And honestly, Fool is overrated.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2019, 09:45:51 am »
+1

Also, I prefer writeups with more statstics and less personal opinion, but then again, this is just my personal opinion.

I agree, but it's just a difference in writing styles. Of course Seprix would have to put in his personal Hot Takes™, and I'm sure when Aku does his list he'll have plenty of references to Markus' stats. And when I do my list tomorrow, you can be assured that I will avoid as many Hot Takes™ as I can because all of mine are crap.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2019, 01:33:16 pm »
+4

I don't care about statistical analysis and I think it's mostly useless for Dominion. I also didn't really put in that many hot takes, I tried to keep it to a minimum, opting for trying to say something new about each card whenever I could.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2019, 02:38:21 pm »
+9

I don't care about statistical analysis and I think it's mostly useless for Dominion. I also didn't really put in that many hot takes, I tried to keep it to a minimum, opting for trying to say something new about each card whenever I could.
There is useful statistical analysis for Dominion, and I don't mind a line of stats, or interesting stats, but I prefer e.g. "this is underrated because it's new" to e.g. "this would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking." "This would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking" is unreadable; it's something to desperately try to skim past to find any actual sentences.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2019, 11:28:05 pm »
0

Some random takes for whatever it's worth:

Fool should probably be in last place. Masterpiece is a contender as well but it has some clear niche cases where it really shines. Fortune teller I never really buy but it's one of Lord Rattington's favorites and he's annoyed me on several occasions with skipping over opening buys. It's obviously one of the worst of the $3 cards but I wouldn't rate it dead last.

It's still rather new but I feel that acting troupe is terrible. Give me coin of the realm or even crossroads over acting troupe any day of the week. A one shot villager source that also takes an action itself to play. If you're kicking off your turn by playing one of these, you can play 4 terminal actions that turn (5 if you count acting troupe itself) and then it's gone. Coin of the realm and crossroads will allow you to play one fewer terminal action, but at least you don't have to gain one every single turn to keep up. I know we're comparing a $3 card to a $2 one, but I expect the troupe to plummet. Absolutely zero way it's better than leprechaun, night watchman, wishing well, etc. Maybe I'm wrong; who knows.

I actually think expedition is underrated. Hand size attacks make it a sad panda but I feel like $3 is a small price to pay when you want to ensure a great turn or even just have insurance against dud draws.

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markus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2019, 01:54:58 am »
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It's still rather new but I feel that acting troupe is terrible. Give me coin of the realm or even crossroads over acting troupe any day of the week. A one shot villager source that also takes an action itself to play. If you're kicking off your turn by playing one of these, you can play 4 terminal actions that turn (5 if you count acting troupe itself) and then it's gone.

Each gained Village is typically played 3.5 times per game.

The first Village will obviously be played more often, and some of those games are resigned preventing more Village plays. But you'll also not always need the Actions from Village and the flexibility of Villagers is great.

Acting Troupe is obviously better as a village than Crossroads to me. Like CotR it's a stop card, but it's faster and provides more Actions per play. In practice, you'll typically want both.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2019, 06:01:51 pm »
+1

*All stats are from those collected by markus

Major deviations (8+) from my personal list
61: Harbinger (53) - There's a lot of Harbinger hate out there, but I still find myself playing turns in Dominion where there are good cards in my discard pile.  Harbinger isn't great, but it becomes better than Silver pretty quickly in most decks.  Harbinger is gained slightly less often (49% by the winner) than Sage and Caravan Guard, but those two cards appear to be more overgained (gained significantly more often by the loser).
55: Secret Cave (34) - Wow was this card underrated.  Disregarding Magic Lamp for now, Secret Cave has a more powerful effect than Oasis.  Secret Cave can be used to spike $6+ early, works well with draw-to-X, and helps spike $8 in junked up decks.  But Secret Cave is especially strong because of how it helps activate Magic Lamp.  Activating Magic Lamp is something you should do ASAP in almost every game.  Secret Cave is a perfect card to be one of your uniques: cheap, cantrip, duration.  Secret Cave is gained by the winner in a whopping 81% of the time; it's a travesty to be rated so low.
45: City Gate (54) - I believe I underrated this Project.  It's a pretty minor effect, but it can help smooth money in the early turns, and make your good cards less likely to miss the shuffle.  It's bought by the winner in 83% of games.
42: Workshop (52) - I like the good $4 Workshop variants as much as the next guy, but I'm down on vanilla Workshop.  Too often, it's hard to fit Workshop into a build if you also want $5+ cards.  The winner gains Workshop in only 47% of games.  Workshop is decent, but so are its peers (Farmers' Market and Leprechaun in my list).
39: Expedition (30) - Drawing cards is good.  Expedition can be used tactically to make sure you see your key card early or avoid a dud late.  The winner buys Expedition in 77% of the games it's in - significantly more than the loser.  I think it's every bit as good as Experiment.
38: Loan (46) - To me, Loan is a trasher of nearly last resort.  It's fine if you aren't getting early Silvers, but often awkward.  It's gained by the winner 49% of the time, and seems to be overgained.  It's not a bad card, but there aren't many bad $3s.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2019, 10:04:13 pm »
0

55: Secret Cave (34) - Wow was this card underrated.  Disregarding Magic Lamp for now, Secret Cave has a more powerful effect than Oasis.  Secret Cave can be used to spike $6+ early, works well with draw-to-X, and helps spike $8 in junked up decks.  But Secret Cave is especially strong because of how it helps activate Magic Lamp.  Activating Magic Lamp is something you should do ASAP in almost every game.  Secret Cave is a perfect card to be one of your uniques: cheap, cantrip, duration.  Secret Cave is gained by the winner in a whopping 81% of the time; it's a travesty to be rated so low.

Yes. The fact that the discarding is optional on Secret Cave is enough on its own to make it better than Oasis.
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Dingan

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2019, 03:01:11 am »
0

I don't understand the hate for Fortune Teller. In the right Kingdom, it essentially gives your opponent 4-card hands instead of 5-card hands -- similar to Relic, Minion, etc. (which are also-underrated IMO). The opposite of which (a large starting hand) is literally what makes the top $5 card the top $5 card (Wharf). Playing a FT is strictly better than not having played it, which can't be said about other lower-tier $3's like Harbinger, Sage, Fool, etc. I mean yeah it's terminal, and a weaker terminal Silver. But in engines with a surplus of Actions with no green or purple thinning (of which there are many), it has a place, and a pretty valuable place at that. I would have had it at #60 (right under Sage). Masterpiece definitely bottom IMO.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 03:02:39 am by Dingan »
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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2019, 03:24:29 am »
+2

Playing a FT is strictly better than not having played it,
It cycles opponent's deck. It might cycle over opponent's Golem but it might also bring the Golem closer to the top.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2019, 03:30:46 am »
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Playing a FT is strictly better than not having played it,
It cycles opponent's deck. It might cycle over opponent's Golem but it might also bring the Golem closer to the top.
Yeah, especially in mid-game if you trashed your Estates it just moves your deck to the discard, meaning you see newly bought cards more quickly. I am always happy when that happens.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2019, 09:40:02 am »
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Yeah, "playing a FT is strictly better than not having played it" sounds like a pretty contentious statement to me. Plus, it's more like a -1 card token. Fortune Teller muddies the next draw, but an opponent with card draw in hand who doesn't dud due to the FT gets their 5-card hand at cleanup.

If there is no green/curse trashing, well that means you yourself are taking up a card slot in your deck to support a terminal that doesn't help you draw, and is only so much better than the dead draw you are trying to give the opponent.

I've given Fortune Teller chances. It's okay if you wanted to open Silver anyway, but its virtues as a terminal silver (for things that care about action cards) seem more likely to be relevant than its attack.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2019, 10:40:28 am »
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Fortune Teller seems the most like Bureaucrat; they both make your opponent effectively take their -1 card token when they succeed, unless they have some way of using a victory card in their hand. Bureaucrat misses when they don't have a Victory in hand, Fortune Teller misses when they don't have a victory/curse in their deck. But when Bureaucrat misses, is doesn't affect your opponent at all (unless it triggers their Patron). When FT misses, it helps them (most of the time). Even when FT doesn't miss, it helps your opponent cycle.

Then of course the other difference is that most of the time, + now is better than a Silver on top of your deck. So... FT doesn't miss as often as Bureaucrat and it has a better on-play advantage for you. But Bureaucrat doesn't help your opponent when it misses, and it hurts a little bit more when it doesn't.
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markus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2019, 12:14:49 pm »
+3

Even when Fortune Teller hits something, it is weaker than the -Card token, because you would draw into this junk anyways at some point. So the attack of FT is not really topdecking the junk but removing the non-junk cards before it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2019, 02:11:50 pm »
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Even when Fortune Teller hits something, it is weaker than the -Card token, because you would draw into this junk anyways at some point. So the attack of FT is not really topdecking the junk but removing the non-junk cards before it.

Good point; I completely missed that.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2018 Edition: $3 Cards (Bottom Half)
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2019, 02:53:17 pm »
+1

55: Secret Cave (34) - Wow was this card underrated.  Disregarding Magic Lamp for now, Secret Cave has a more powerful effect than Oasis.  Secret Cave can be used to spike $6+ early, works well with draw-to-X, and helps spike $8 in junked up decks.  But Secret Cave is especially strong because of how it helps activate Magic Lamp.  Activating Magic Lamp is something you should do ASAP in almost every game.  Secret Cave is a perfect card to be one of your uniques: cheap, cantrip, duration.  Secret Cave is gained by the winner in a whopping 81% of the time; it's a travesty to be rated so low.

Yes. The fact that the discarding is optional on Secret Cave is enough on its own to make it better than Oasis.

Definitely don't agree with this. Maybe if secret cave was "discard up to 3 cards for $1 per card", sure, but otherwise it's worse.

Obviously it's safer to spam than Oasis, but Oasis is really productive in the early game in many decks.
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